American Imperialism


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Re: American Imperialism

Postby Conor Dary » Wed Jul 04, 2012 4:29 pm

Jazz, that is really not the point at all. But I said all this last year....

Anyways, I don't see any point in going on. I really have nothing more to add. We will just have to disagree.
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Re: American Imperialism

Postby kuha » Wed Jul 04, 2012 4:55 pm

I agree with Conor. If our points aren't clear, then there's no point in writing another word.

It is curious, to me at least, that this 67-year old episode seems so important for some. There are PLENTY of issues (in fact, a nearly unending number of them) to get morally incensed about. They're all too common, in fact. On this one, however, I give Truman the benefit of the doubt and move on.
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Re: American Imperialism

Postby JRM » Wed Jul 04, 2012 5:13 pm

Perhaps it helps to shed some historical/military perspective on the atomic bomb. At the time, it was perceived as an ordinance -- nothing more, nothing less. It was either tens of thousands of pounds of TNT, or one ten-thousand pound bomb. There was no nuclear specter. There was no social or moral association with this weapon. It was deemed the most efficient to deliver, in terms of the potential payoff. Remember, this is from a country that fire-bombed much of Germany and Japan. Effect of a nuclear weapon (whatever that is)? Pshaw.

The nuclear nightmare emerged longer after WWII was finished, thanks in (no) part to "concerned scientists."
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Re: American Imperialism

Postby jazzcyclist » Wed Jul 04, 2012 5:43 pm

Conor Dary wrote:Jazz, that is really not the point at all. But I said all this last year....

Anyways, I don't see any point in going on. I really have nothing more to add. We will just have to disagree.

Reasonable minds can agree and disagree. On the one hand, you, kuha and I agree that the U.S. in general, and Truman in particular, had the moral authority to massacre civilians in order to achieve its political goals in WWII. On the other hand, we seem to disagree on whether other nations and subnational groups have the moral authority to massacre civilians in order to achieve their political goals.
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Re: American Imperialism

Postby kuha » Wed Jul 04, 2012 5:49 pm

jazzcyclist wrote:On the one hand, you, kuha and I agree that the U.S. in general, and Truman in particular, had the moral authority to massacre civilians in order to achieve its political goals in WWII. On the other hand, we seem to disagree on whether other nations and subnational groups have the moral authority to massacre civilians in order to achieve their political goals.


Jazz, I reject your logic throughout this thread; and I reject this characterization of the issue. It is YOUR characterization, and yours alone.
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Re: American Imperialism

Postby Conor Dary » Wed Jul 04, 2012 5:53 pm

jazzcyclist wrote:
Conor Dary wrote:Jazz, that is really not the point at all. But I said all this last year....

Anyways, I don't see any point in going on. I really have nothing more to add. We will just have to disagree.

On the one hand, you, kuha and I agree that the U.S. in general, and Truman in particular, had the moral authority to massacre civilians in order to achieve its political goals in WWII.


No, I don't agree on that at all. Truman wanted to end the war. End of story. I quit.
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Re: American Imperialism

Postby Marlow » Wed Jul 04, 2012 5:58 pm

Too lazy to look back, but I'm sure I made this unalterable point - there was NO decision. The bomb was made to deploy and it was deployed. In a WAR, it was the ONLY option.
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Re: American Imperialism

Postby jazzcyclist » Wed Jul 04, 2012 6:52 pm

kuha wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote:On the one hand, you, kuha and I agree that the U.S. in general, and Truman in particular, had the moral authority to massacre civilians in order to achieve its political goals in WWII. On the other hand, we seem to disagree on whether other nations and subnational groups have the moral authority to massacre civilians in order to achieve their political goals.


Jazz, I reject your logic throughout this thread; and I reject this characterization of the issue. It is YOUR characterization, and yours alone.

Well, there's no doubt that you think it's morally acceptable to massacre civilians. In which way am I misrepresenting you?
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Re: American Imperialism

Postby Pelpa » Wed Jul 04, 2012 6:54 pm

I think gay marriage is wrong.
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Re: American Imperialism

Postby jazzcyclist » Wed Jul 04, 2012 6:54 pm

Conor Dary wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote:
Conor Dary wrote:Jazz, that is really not the point at all. But I said all this last year....

Anyways, I don't see any point in going on. I really have nothing more to add. We will just have to disagree.

On the one hand, you, kuha and I agree that the U.S. in general, and Truman in particular, had the moral authority to massacre civilians in order to achieve its political goals in WWII.


No, I don't agree on that at all. Truman wanted to end the war. End of story. I quit.

And he ended the war by massacring civilians. You can't sweep that little inconvenient truth under the rug.
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Re: American Imperialism

Postby kuha » Wed Jul 04, 2012 6:55 pm

jazzcyclist wrote:Well, there's no doubt that you think it's morally acceptable to massacre civilians. In which way am I misrepresenting you?


Please stop. I'm rapidly losing the genuine respect I once had for you.
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Re: American Imperialism

Postby jazzcyclist » Wed Jul 04, 2012 7:00 pm

kuha wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote:Well, there's no doubt that you think it's morally acceptable to massacre civilians. In which way am I misrepresenting you?


Please stop. I'm rapidly losing the genuine respect I once had for you.

Do you honestly think I care what folks like you think of me? For the record, I consider it a badge of honor when folks like you heap scorn on me.
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