American Imperialism


Normally open July 4th only---the one day a year when partisan politics, religion, etc. are acceptable topics on this Board (within reason). The forum is now closed.

Re: American Imperialism

Postby Conor Dary » Tue Jul 05, 2011 9:41 am

jazzcyclist wrote:
Marlow wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote:But what gave him that sense of urgency, believeing that he only had hours or days to make something happen and not weeks or months? Japan was no longer a threat to us. Why couldn't he have given Japan a little time to come up with a face-saving way to surrender which is what Ike recommended?

Say what? WHAT gave him a sense of urgency?! Maybe it had something to do with the WORLD WAR we were in that was killing more Americans every day.

Americans were not dying when we nuked Japan because there was no mainland invasion taking place and the other battles had been wrapped up.


No Americans dying? What do you think Okinawa was all about? To get ready for an invasion of the mainland.

The bomb was ready in July 1945. Truman said surrender or else and Japan said no, and the rest is history.
Conor Dary
 
Posts: 6297
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: कनोर दारी in Ronald MacDonald's Home Town, and once a Duck always a Duck.

Re: American Imperialism

Postby Marlow » Tue Jul 05, 2011 10:07 am

jazzcyclist wrote:Americans were not dying when we nuked Japan because there was no mainland invasion taking place and the other battles had been wrapped up.

F- in History

July 29, 1945 - A Japanese submarine sinks the Cruiser INDIANAPOLIS resulting in the loss of 881 crewmen. The ship sinks before a radio message can be sent out leaving survivors adrift for two days.

That's after Japan's rejection of the surrender and just before Hiroshima.
Marlow
 
Posts: 21135
Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2008 5:00 pm
Location: Somewhere over the . . . hill

Re: American Imperialism

Postby jazzcyclist » Wed Jul 04, 2012 2:15 pm

Conor Dary wrote:No Americans dying? What do you think Okinawa was all about? To get ready for an invasion of the mainland.

The bomb was ready in July 1945. Truman said surrender or else and Japan said no, and the rest is history.

Let me rephrase my original statement. No Americans were dying in America when Truman nuked Japan. Of course American soldiers, marine and sailors continued to die in Japan, but the home land was secure.
jazzcyclist
 
Posts: 10860
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am

Re: American Imperialism

Postby jazzcyclist » Wed Jul 04, 2012 2:17 pm

Marlow wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote:Americans were not dying when we nuked Japan because there was no mainland invasion taking place and the other battles had been wrapped up.

F- in History

July 29, 1945 - A Japanese submarine sinks the Cruiser INDIANAPOLIS resulting in the loss of 881 crewmen. The ship sinks before a radio message can be sent out leaving survivors adrift for two days.

That's after Japan's rejection of the surrender and just before Hiroshima.

Where was the Indianapolis when it was sunk? Was it a civilian cruise ship or a killing machine?
jazzcyclist
 
Posts: 10860
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am

Re: American Imperialism

Postby odelltrclan » Wed Jul 04, 2012 3:02 pm

jazzcyclist wrote:Where was the Indianapolis when it was sunk? Was it a civilian cruise ship or a killing machine?


http://www.ussindianapolis.org/story.htm

Of course you could always watch "Jaws" and learn part of the story.
odelltrclan
 
Posts: 1554
Joined: Tue Jul 08, 2008 4:30 pm

Re: American Imperialism

Postby Conor Dary » Wed Jul 04, 2012 3:10 pm

jazzcyclist wrote:
Conor Dary wrote:No Americans dying? What do you think Okinawa was all about? To get ready for an invasion of the mainland.

The bomb was ready in July 1945. Truman said surrender or else and Japan said no, and the rest is history.

Let me rephrase my original statement. No Americans were dying in America when Truman nuked Japan. Of course American soldiers, marine and sailors continued to die in Japan, but the home land was secure.


So, what. My father was in the South Pacific during the war. You make it sound like the Americans fighting in the Pacific had volunteered to go there. War is hell, and fighting the Japanese was no different.

We went over all this last year. I have nothing new to add...
Conor Dary
 
Posts: 6297
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: कनोर दारी in Ronald MacDonald's Home Town, and once a Duck always a Duck.

Re: American Imperialism

Postby jazzcyclist » Wed Jul 04, 2012 3:15 pm

Conor Dary wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote:
Conor Dary wrote:No Americans dying? What do you think Okinawa was all about? To get ready for an invasion of the mainland.

The bomb was ready in July 1945. Truman said surrender or else and Japan said no, and the rest is history.

Let me rephrase my original statement. No Americans were dying in America when Truman nuked Japan. Of course American soldiers, marine and sailors continued to die in Japan, but the home land was secure.


So, what. My father was in the South Pacific during the war. You make it sound like the Americans fighting in the Pacific had volunteered to go there. War is hell, and fighting the Japanese was no different.

We went over all this last year. I have nothing new to add...

So your father was there. What does that have to do with anything?
jazzcyclist
 
Posts: 10860
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am

Re: American Imperialism

Postby kuha » Wed Jul 04, 2012 3:25 pm

Seriously? It means that REAL Americans were in harm's way. Not a trivial fact.

For the umpteenth time on this subject, the horse of "controversy" can be beaten here, but very little will be accomplished. Truman made a tough call, but a totally defensible one.
kuha
 
Posts: 9036
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: 3rd row, on the finish line

Re: American Imperialism

Postby Conor Dary » Wed Jul 04, 2012 4:06 pm

jazzcyclist wrote:
So your father was there. What does that have to do with anything?


Lots, you make it sound like WW2 was some war of choice. Everyone was some soldier of fortune.
The soldiers were just ordinary Americans doing a job. Whether they were in the States or on Okinawa, makes no difference. Truman had a tough call to make and he did it. And David Halberstam, who knows a lot more about war than you or I, agrees with what Truman did.

Jazz, I appreciate your posts, but if that is all you have to say, I am done.
Conor Dary
 
Posts: 6297
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: कनोर दारी in Ronald MacDonald's Home Town, and once a Duck always a Duck.

Re: American Imperialism

Postby jazzcyclist » Wed Jul 04, 2012 4:10 pm

kuha wrote:Seriously? It means that REAL Americans were in harm's way. Not a trivial fact.

For the umpteenth time on this subject, the horse of "controversy" can be beaten here, but very little will be accomplished. Truman made a tough call, but a totally defensible one.

I like both you and Conor, but you talk as though the lives of Americans, including American servicemen, are more valuable than the lives of anyone else on this planet, and thus gives us the right to ignore the principles that American Presidents love to brag about in speeches full of pious platitudes. In other words, "if you have good reasons, you're allowed to do anything, but only if you're American". Why shouldn't other nations be allowed to nuke people if they feel their reasons are good enough?

You never compromise your true moral principles, you only find out what they are.
jazzcyclist
 
Posts: 10860
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am

Re: American Imperialism

Postby Conor Dary » Wed Jul 04, 2012 4:29 pm

Jazz, that is really not the point at all. But I said all this last year....

Anyways, I don't see any point in going on. I really have nothing more to add. We will just have to disagree.
Conor Dary
 
Posts: 6297
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: कनोर दारी in Ronald MacDonald's Home Town, and once a Duck always a Duck.

Re: American Imperialism

Postby kuha » Wed Jul 04, 2012 4:55 pm

I agree with Conor. If our points aren't clear, then there's no point in writing another word.

It is curious, to me at least, that this 67-year old episode seems so important for some. There are PLENTY of issues (in fact, a nearly unending number of them) to get morally incensed about. They're all too common, in fact. On this one, however, I give Truman the benefit of the doubt and move on.
kuha
 
Posts: 9036
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: 3rd row, on the finish line

Re: American Imperialism

Postby JRM » Wed Jul 04, 2012 5:13 pm

Perhaps it helps to shed some historical/military perspective on the atomic bomb. At the time, it was perceived as an ordinance -- nothing more, nothing less. It was either tens of thousands of pounds of TNT, or one ten-thousand pound bomb. There was no nuclear specter. There was no social or moral association with this weapon. It was deemed the most efficient to deliver, in terms of the potential payoff. Remember, this is from a country that fire-bombed much of Germany and Japan. Effect of a nuclear weapon (whatever that is)? Pshaw.

The nuclear nightmare emerged longer after WWII was finished, thanks in (no) part to "concerned scientists."
JRM
 
Posts: 2625
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:31 am
Location: Woodland Hills, CA

Re: American Imperialism

Postby jazzcyclist » Wed Jul 04, 2012 5:43 pm

Conor Dary wrote:Jazz, that is really not the point at all. But I said all this last year....

Anyways, I don't see any point in going on. I really have nothing more to add. We will just have to disagree.

Reasonable minds can agree and disagree. On the one hand, you, kuha and I agree that the U.S. in general, and Truman in particular, had the moral authority to massacre civilians in order to achieve its political goals in WWII. On the other hand, we seem to disagree on whether other nations and subnational groups have the moral authority to massacre civilians in order to achieve their political goals.
jazzcyclist
 
Posts: 10860
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am

Re: American Imperialism

Postby kuha » Wed Jul 04, 2012 5:49 pm

jazzcyclist wrote:On the one hand, you, kuha and I agree that the U.S. in general, and Truman in particular, had the moral authority to massacre civilians in order to achieve its political goals in WWII. On the other hand, we seem to disagree on whether other nations and subnational groups have the moral authority to massacre civilians in order to achieve their political goals.


Jazz, I reject your logic throughout this thread; and I reject this characterization of the issue. It is YOUR characterization, and yours alone.
kuha
 
Posts: 9036
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: 3rd row, on the finish line

Re: American Imperialism

Postby Conor Dary » Wed Jul 04, 2012 5:53 pm

jazzcyclist wrote:
Conor Dary wrote:Jazz, that is really not the point at all. But I said all this last year....

Anyways, I don't see any point in going on. I really have nothing more to add. We will just have to disagree.

On the one hand, you, kuha and I agree that the U.S. in general, and Truman in particular, had the moral authority to massacre civilians in order to achieve its political goals in WWII.


No, I don't agree on that at all. Truman wanted to end the war. End of story. I quit.
Conor Dary
 
Posts: 6297
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: कनोर दारी in Ronald MacDonald's Home Town, and once a Duck always a Duck.

Re: American Imperialism

Postby Marlow » Wed Jul 04, 2012 5:58 pm

Too lazy to look back, but I'm sure I made this unalterable point - there was NO decision. The bomb was made to deploy and it was deployed. In a WAR, it was the ONLY option.
Marlow
 
Posts: 21135
Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2008 5:00 pm
Location: Somewhere over the . . . hill

Re: American Imperialism

Postby jazzcyclist » Wed Jul 04, 2012 6:52 pm

kuha wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote:On the one hand, you, kuha and I agree that the U.S. in general, and Truman in particular, had the moral authority to massacre civilians in order to achieve its political goals in WWII. On the other hand, we seem to disagree on whether other nations and subnational groups have the moral authority to massacre civilians in order to achieve their political goals.


Jazz, I reject your logic throughout this thread; and I reject this characterization of the issue. It is YOUR characterization, and yours alone.

Well, there's no doubt that you think it's morally acceptable to massacre civilians. In which way am I misrepresenting you?
jazzcyclist
 
Posts: 10860
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am

Re: American Imperialism

Postby Pelpa » Wed Jul 04, 2012 6:54 pm

I think gay marriage is wrong.
Pelpa
 
Posts: 1613
Joined: Sat Aug 15, 2009 1:18 pm

Re: American Imperialism

Postby jazzcyclist » Wed Jul 04, 2012 6:54 pm

Conor Dary wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote:
Conor Dary wrote:Jazz, that is really not the point at all. But I said all this last year....

Anyways, I don't see any point in going on. I really have nothing more to add. We will just have to disagree.

On the one hand, you, kuha and I agree that the U.S. in general, and Truman in particular, had the moral authority to massacre civilians in order to achieve its political goals in WWII.


No, I don't agree on that at all. Truman wanted to end the war. End of story. I quit.

And he ended the war by massacring civilians. You can't sweep that little inconvenient truth under the rug.
jazzcyclist
 
Posts: 10860
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am

Re: American Imperialism

Postby kuha » Wed Jul 04, 2012 6:55 pm

jazzcyclist wrote:Well, there's no doubt that you think it's morally acceptable to massacre civilians. In which way am I misrepresenting you?


Please stop. I'm rapidly losing the genuine respect I once had for you.
kuha
 
Posts: 9036
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: 3rd row, on the finish line

Re: American Imperialism

Postby jazzcyclist » Wed Jul 04, 2012 7:00 pm

kuha wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote:Well, there's no doubt that you think it's morally acceptable to massacre civilians. In which way am I misrepresenting you?


Please stop. I'm rapidly losing the genuine respect I once had for you.

Do you honestly think I care what folks like you think of me? For the record, I consider it a badge of honor when folks like you heap scorn on me.
jazzcyclist
 
Posts: 10860
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am

PreviousNext

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests

cron