the use of first names for athletes [split]


Normally open July 4th only---the one day a year when partisan politics, religion, etc. are acceptable topics on this Board (within reason). The forum is now closed.

Postby Brian » Wed Jun 03, 2009 5:11 pm

gh wrote:It definitely shows disrespect to call women by first name if you wouldn't think of doing it for a guy. It's a practice we heartily discourage.



Speaking solely for myself on this issue, I've always believed it was a little disrespectful to call anyone you don't personally know by (only) their first name. Implies a buddy "insider-ness" that simply isn't true. So I try not to do it.

Exceptions being when needed to differentiate between two with the same last name; i.e., brothers, etc., and, of course, when discussing Cher or Madonna--not that anyone would want to do so or ever should for that matter. :]


Having said that, I have more than once referred to the star of "24" only as "Kiefer" in those threads (and always had a twinge in my stomach during those times). But I did so because I honestly cannot ever seem to remember if his last name is "Southerland" or "Southerlin" and I didn't want the point of my post lost to members of the typo police. [And I never remembered to look it up before I posted. Frankly, it never seemed that important.]


Maybe this example ties into some points being made here.

Or not. Especially coming from someone who posts with only his first name. :] :]
Last edited by Brian on Wed Jun 03, 2009 5:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Speedfirst » Wed Jun 03, 2009 5:14 pm

I really can't believe you guys are debating this subject, about what is stated on a message board :shock:

Don't sweat the small stuff, it's all small stuff...Wow
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Postby Brian » Wed Jun 03, 2009 5:17 pm

Speedfirst wrote:I really can't believe you guys are debating this subject, about what is stated on a message board :shock:

Don't sweat the small stuff, it's all small stuff...Wow



Hmmm...good point in that a message board isn't the same as a public address system (wherein I agree with gh that it is absolutely wrong).
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Postby mojo » Wed Jun 03, 2009 5:24 pm

I definitely think an announcer should call all the athletes by their last names. It does seem sexist to call the women (and don't EVER call them girls unless they are under 18 :x ) by their first names and not the men. It is very subtle but it implies to me that they should be taken less seriously. "Mary is stepping into the ring for her final throw just sounds weaker than Smith is taking his/her final throw".

I am all over the map with first and last names. Gary is Gary...no need to explain which Gary. :P :wink: Perdita is Perdita.

I call Sanya Richards Sanya most of the time...I call Andreas...well we wont go there. :lol:

I don't think it is sexist in casual converstaion to mix surnames with first names.
If I said the name Marion here I think we would all know who I meant. Same with Tyson. Or Usain.


Results, announcing, and reporting should be consistent and the last name has always been the standard usage.
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Postby TrackDaddy » Wed Jun 03, 2009 5:53 pm

Daisy wrote:
nevetsllim wrote:I post on tennis forums too and everyone posts Roger, Rafa, Novak as well as Venus, Serena, Maria etc. See, no double standards.

Well there is no double standard if you use first names for everyone. The whole point of the first post in this thread is that some people use first names for women but last names for men. In that scenario it could easily be considered a double standard.


Is that even realistic to expect?

If we called Marion, Jones instead...would that be less confusing?

*Sigh*
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Postby TrackDaddy » Wed Jun 03, 2009 5:54 pm

Speedfirst wrote:I really can't believe you guys are debating this subject, about what is stated on a message board :shock:

Don't sweat the small stuff, it's all small stuff...Wow


Its the moderators who are requiring it.
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Postby Daisy » Wed Jun 03, 2009 5:55 pm

TrackDaddy wrote:
Daisy wrote:
nevetsllim wrote:I post on tennis forums too and everyone posts Roger, Rafa, Novak as well as Venus, Serena, Maria etc. See, no double standards.

Well there is no double standard if you use first names for everyone. The whole point of the first post in this thread is that some people use first names for women but last names for men. In that scenario it could easily be considered a double standard.


Is that even realistic to expect?

If we called Marion, Jones instead...would that be less confusing?


The sentence you bolded is about being consistent. Don't take it too literally. How about this:
    Well there is no double standard if you use first names for both men and women.

guruof track wrote:The notion that I refer to all women by their first names and all men by their last name, is hogwash.

Who said you did? Seemed to be more of a general comment rather than one aimed at anyone in particular.

TrackDaddy wrote:Its the moderators who are requiring it.

Tandfman is not a moderator. I think he was just offering an opinion. I didn't even see it as particularly PC, let alone infringing on peoples first amendment right. Let's get real here.
Last edited by Daisy on Wed Jun 03, 2009 6:03 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby TrackDaddy » Wed Jun 03, 2009 6:01 pm

AS wrote:
guruof track wrote:Being politically correct has ruined America.


Hmmm, being conscious of the impact of one's behaviours and assumptions on the manner in which others are perceived and treated...

That sounds like a recipe for distaster :roll:

Nowhere near the top of the list of things that have "ruined America"...

...unless the "golden age" of America for you is back when them pesky blacks, women and homos know their place, and WASP men could stride through the land free as a bird saying anything they damn well pleased... :oops:


"Homo" isnt a gender or a race and is therefore a different topic than those altogether.

I can't tell you how many times I've typed Tyson, LeGerald, Wallce, X, Lashawn, Jeremy, Usain, Asafa, etc.

Isnt it true that MOST women athletes sir names can or do change during their career while men's dont?

Can that be a legitmate reason for using first names?

Isnt it a good thing that we called Veronica Campbell Brown, VC and now VCB instead of Campbell?

Oh wretched man that I am, who will save me from this body of death?
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Postby TrackDaddy » Wed Jun 03, 2009 6:06 pm

Daisy wrote:
TrackDaddy wrote:Its the moderators who are requiring it.

Tandfman is not a moderator. I think he was just offering an opinion. I didn't even see it as particularly PC, let alone infringing on peoples first amendment right. Let's get real here.


Did you overlook gh's post in the thread and the references to policy and the topic being raised before?

Or did you only see tandfman's "opinion?"
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Postby TrackDaddy » Wed Jun 03, 2009 6:12 pm

mojo wrote:If I said the name Marion here I think we would all know who I meant.


In the future just use Jones and label us stupid if we don't make the connection. :roll:
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Postby Daisy » Wed Jun 03, 2009 6:13 pm

TrackDaddy wrote:Or did you only see tandfman's "opinion?"

Ah, only the later. I guess I need to read the other thread. Where is it?
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Postby TrackDaddy » Wed Jun 03, 2009 6:14 pm

gh wrote:
lonewolf wrote:Purely personal preference: When officiating, I never address any athlete of any age or gender directly by their first name, the exception being athletes with difficult foreign names who ask me to use the more pronounceable of their names.
That said, I don't see it as inappropriate to use first names, initials, nick-names or whatever in a forum such as this, as long as we know which athlete is being referred to.


At the national championships about a decade ago I was working the infield and they had the women's discus. The head official called every woman by first name. Immediately following was the men's discus and the same official called every man by last name.

Opposing that is not being PC.

It's being aware of subtle sexism (women as little girls not to be taken seriously) and doing something about it. Hence, it remains the stance of this board's management that using a double standard is offensive and makes management unhappy.


Daisy,

You only need to read this thread.
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Postby Daisy » Wed Jun 03, 2009 6:22 pm

TrackDaddy wrote:You only need to read this thread.

Now I get you.

gh wrote:Hence, it remains the stance of this board's management that using a double standard is offensive and makes management unhappy.


Depends how much you want to lawyer that statement. I did not read that as no first names allowed. I read it as no double standard.

So as long as the brits are calling Christie and Jackson, Linford and Colin, which I think they might do, they can say Paula and Nicola. I guess?

It's hard for me to tell the context of tandfman's original comment as I don't know which thread this was split from. I assume there was not consistency with regard to usage which is where the double standard bit kicks in.
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Postby mojo » Wed Jun 03, 2009 6:46 pm

TrackDaddy wrote:
mojo wrote:If I said the name Marion here I think we would all know who I meant.


In the future just use Jones and label us stupid if we don't make the connection. :roll:


That could mean Lolo Jones although I would use polar opposite adjectives to describe her and the other Jones so perhaps you could decipher who I was talking about.
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Postby TrackDaddy » Wed Jun 03, 2009 7:07 pm

mojo wrote:
TrackDaddy wrote:
mojo wrote:If I said the name Marion here I think we would all know who I meant.


In the future just use Jones and label us stupid if we don't make the connection. :roll:


That could mean Lolo Jones although I would use polar opposite adjectives to describe her and the other Jones so perhaps you could decipher who I was talking about.


:lol:

Well when you do describe them using adjectives, remember to be politically correct.
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Postby gh » Wed Jun 03, 2009 7:50 pm

mojo wrote:I definitely think an announcer should call all the athletes by their last names. It does seem sexist to call the women (and don't EVER call them girls unless they are under 18 :x ) by their first names and not the men. It is very subtle but it implies to me that they should be taken less seriously. "Mary is stepping into the ring for her final throw just sounds weaker than Smith is taking his/her final throw".

I am all over the map with first and last names. Gary is Gary...no need to explain which Gary. :P :wink: Perdita is Perdita.

I call Sanya Richards Sanya most of the time...I call Andreas...well we wont go there. :lol:

I don't think it is sexist in casual converstaion to mix surnames with first names.
If I said the name Marion here I think we would all know who I meant. Same with Tyson. Or Usain.


Results, announcing, and reporting should be consistent and the last name has always been the standard usage.


For newbies, note that Mojo is the voice of a woman.

Bottom line is that management frowns on (discriminatory) first-name calls. Be kind to management and management will be kind to you.

If you wish to debate free speech and first-amendment rights, we suggest yuo check back on the July 4 weekend when the "free speech" forum has its once-a-year-opening. Until then the amendment that trumps all is that gh (proudly) is a raging feminist.

Now, back to track & field talk.
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Postby EPelle » Wed Jun 03, 2009 11:00 pm

Calling women out on a first-name basis was previously discussed on a Suzy Favor-Hamilton retirement thread

http://mb.trackandfieldnews.com/discuss ... p?p=158940

There was an even earlier thread about first-name calling upon which this general discussion was based which has since been deleted.
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Postby Pego » Thu Jun 04, 2009 4:50 am

I came late to this party, so here is my nickel.

To show respect is a basic courtesy, not PC. I have been as guilty as anybody on this topic and my tongue will probably still slip at times. Then again, I am reminded of George Burns' quip.
"Granma always reminded me to be polite to my elders. I no longer need to be polite to anybody."

Hey lonewolf, ain't that great :D ?
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Postby Taliban » Thu Jun 04, 2009 5:19 am

What a waste....
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Postby guruof track » Thu Jun 04, 2009 5:47 am

Jones has stated she is looking to have an incredible season this year....Williams as well.


I wish these to women much success.
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Postby lonewolf » Sun Jul 05, 2009 2:48 pm

Pego wrote:I came late to this party, so here is my nickel.

To show respect is a basic courtesy, not PC. I have been as guilty as anybody on this topic and my tongue will probably still slip at times. Then again, I am reminded of George Burns' quip.
"Granma always reminded me to be polite to my elders. I no longer need to be polite to anybody."

Hey lonewolf, ain't that great :D ?


I missed this thread last time around but, yep, age does have that advantage, if it is an advantage. On the other hand, I have mixed emotions about being considered so doddering no one take offense at what I say. :)

As to how to address athletes, I can settle that.
Both women and men over HS age should be addressed at Ms or Mr when spoken to directly and called up by last name only when flight coordinating.
Simple.
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