The VP Gaffe Over & Under


Normally open July 4th only---the one day a year when partisan politics, religion, etc. are acceptable topics on this Board (within reason). The forum is now closed.

Postby Daisy » Mon Oct 13, 2008 5:26 am

jazzcyclist wrote:I'm also talking prejudice against, Jews, Mormons, Hispanics, Catholics and especially Arabs/Muslims that manifests itself in the voting booth.


Add atheist in there too, that label might be worse than being the "wrong" religion with regard to politics.
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Postby SQUACKEE » Mon Oct 13, 2008 5:31 am

Daisy wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote:I'm also talking prejudice against, Jews, Mormons, Hispanics, Catholics and especially Arabs/Muslims that manifests itself in the voting booth.


Add atheist in there too, that label might be worse than being the "wrong" religion with regard to politics.


Yes, i think all the minorities Jazz mentioned could become prez before an atheist could.
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Postby tandfman » Mon Oct 13, 2008 5:31 am

One of them actually did.
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Postby jazzcyclist » Mon Oct 13, 2008 5:52 am

Daisy wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote:I'm also talking prejudice against, Jews, Mormons, Hispanics, Catholics and especially Arabs/Muslims that manifests itself in the voting booth.


Add atheist in there too, that label might be worse than being the "wrong" religion with regard to politics.

Good point! The funny thing is that in Europe, the land of grandiose, majestic and ornate churches, an atheist could get elected before a politician who wears his religion on his sleeve like W.
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Postby SQUACKEE » Mon Oct 13, 2008 6:21 am

jazzcyclist wrote:
Daisy wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote:I'm also talking prejudice against, Jews, Mormons, Hispanics, Catholics and especially Arabs/Muslims that manifests itself in the voting booth.


Add atheist in there too, that label might be worse than being the "wrong" religion with regard to politics.

Good point! The funny thing is that in Europe, the land of grandiose, majestic and ornate churches, an atheist could get elected before a politician who wears his religion on his sleeve like W.


True but those churches are mostly centuries and centuries old. Many built when most of the people thought the earth was flat.
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Postby jazzcyclist » Mon Oct 13, 2008 7:00 am

SQUACKEE wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote:
Daisy wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote:I'm also talking prejudice against, Jews, Mormons, Hispanics, Catholics and especially Arabs/Muslims that manifests itself in the voting booth.


Add atheist in there too, that label might be worse than being the "wrong" religion with regard to politics.

Good point! The funny thing is that in Europe, the land of grandiose, majestic and ornate churches, an atheist could get elected before a politician who wears his religion on his sleeve like W.


True but those churches are mostly centuries and centuries old. Many built when most of the people thought the earth was flat.

....and before the Europeans chased all of the Puritans and bible thumpers to North America. :wink: I once heard a former European Head of State (I don't remember which one) say that passionate discussion of your religious faith is the third rail of European politics.
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Postby paulthefan » Mon Oct 13, 2008 8:42 am

SQUACKEE wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote:[
Good point! The funny thing is that in Europe, the land of grandiose, majestic and ornate churches, an atheist could get elected before a politician who wears his religion on his sleeve like W.


True but those churches are mostly centuries and centuries old. Many built when most of the people thought the earth was flat.



and when and where it was not flat they would do a marvelous job of leveling it to build a solid foundation for a glorious church.
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Postby bad hammy » Mon Oct 13, 2008 9:17 am

paulthefan wrote: More simply, paulthefan does not think that Obama's race is going to cost him a single net vote in the white demographic. For every white voter out there that is going to vote for McCain soley because he is white there are 2 that are going to vote for Obama solely because he is black. It is a net plus for Obama.

Really, paulthefan, you are suggesting that Obama being black is an advantage in the election for President. You obviously do not realize how ludicrous this is. You can look at the history of US Presidents and the current and past makeup of Congress to see that being black is definitely a HUGE advantage in US electoral politics . . .


SQUACKEE wrote:There is still work to do but i see the battle for equal rights mainly won.

While it is true that the battle for equal rights has, for the most part, been won, that is not the same as saying racism is a thing of the past. It is still a huge, if slightly more subtle, force in the US.
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Postby paulthefan » Mon Oct 13, 2008 9:32 am

bad hammy wrote:
paulthefan wrote: More simply, paulthefan does not think that Obama's race is going to cost him a single net vote in the white demographic. For every white voter out there that is going to vote for McCain soley because he is white there are 2 that are going to vote for Obama solely because he is black. It is a net plus for Obama.


Really, paulthefan, you are suggesting that Obama being black is an advantage in the election for President. You obviously do not realize how ludicrous this is. You can look at the history of US Presidents and the current and past makeup of Congress to see that being black is definitely a HUGE advantage in US electoral politics .


that is correct, I would say a net advantage. You have to ask yourself who out there would vote for the most liberal senator with the shortest resume had he been white?... answer: in stable economic time no one but the far left wingers in the country, in todays national climate even an inexperienced white liberal has a chance. Nevertheless the country is center right. Now how many center right (republicans and conservative democrats) are going to not vote for Obama because he is black?.. answer: to the resolution that elections provide, NONE. They will be voting against Obama because he is liberal and voting for his opponent because he is more conservative.

Obama may get a bonus "solidarity" vote/turnout from the black community and he is likely to get great white youth vote turnout akin to a 60s antiwar rally. All net positives. But his race is not going to cost him a vote among white center right voters. To suggest that he is going to lose these because he is black is mere campaign propaganda and quite effective propaganda at that.

Now if Obama were a genuine center right candidate with reasonable credentials and were down by 5% to a far left or far right winger then we could discuss reasonably the real possibility of a racial component to his losing. As it stands right now, it is clear that he is not disadvantaged but rather he is advantaged and that any voters voting against him are doing so because of who he is and what he has stood for in his career, not because he is black.
Last edited by paulthefan on Mon Oct 13, 2008 3:58 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Postby Daisy » Mon Oct 13, 2008 9:40 am

paulthefan wrote:Now how many center right (republicans and conservative democrats) are going to NOT vote for Obama because he is black?.. answer: to the resolution that elections provide, NONE.


Are you saying because it can't be documented it does not happen?

paulthefan wrote:They will be voting against Obama because he is liberal and voting for his opponent because he is more conservative.

I agree that is what they will say to the pollsters. But anyone willing to vote for Clinton in the primaries and not Obama in the election is suspect in my book. Clinton's not liberal?
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Postby paulthefan » Mon Oct 13, 2008 9:44 am

Daisy wrote:
paulthefan wrote:Now how many center right (republicans and conservative democrats) are going to NOT vote for Obama because he is black?.. answer: to the resolution that elections provide, NONE.


Are you saying because it can't be documented it does not happen?


I didnt know you were talking about ufos here, in which case Im sorry for chiming in, carry on.
Last edited by paulthefan on Mon Oct 13, 2008 9:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Daisy » Mon Oct 13, 2008 9:45 am

paulthefan wrote:
Daisy wrote:
paulthefan wrote:Now how many center right (republicans and conservative democrats) are going to NOT vote for Obama because he is black?.. answer: to the resolution that elections provide, NONE.


Are you saying because it can't be documented it does not happen?


I didnt know you were talking about ufos here, in which case Im sorry for chiming in, carry on, Im out of here.


But they have been ! :P
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Postby TrakFan » Mon Oct 13, 2008 2:44 pm

As another poster mentioned, we'll know the true effect of everything on Nov 5th. However, this discussion is indicative of how McCain's team has ran his campaign. "It hasn't been about McCain or the issues, but about Obama" Whether he's trying to act Presidential before he's elected as President (mid east/European tour), whether he's a celebrity ala Britney/Paris, whether he's referred to McCain's running mate as a pig (lipstick), whether he can be trusted due to Ayers, etc. And while they were busy focusing TOO much on Obama, Obama simply continued with his message. Granted, he'd hit McCain as well. But, those running Obama's campaign didn't put the MAJORITY of their focus on McCain. For example, I recall 2 specific commercials that seemed to play continually in Colorado during the Olympics (prime TV watching time).

McCain's Paris/Britney ad http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dS_RYYlqbhQ
and
Obama's Hands ad http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NRgWpa_rnWQ

And it's not about positive/negative campaigning, but how the candidates were trying to define their overall theme/message during the early stages of the campaign.

Although pundits attribute the recent shift to Obama on the economy, I also think it has a lot to do with the level of comfort that many feel in how they've come to know the various candidates. While McCain's campaign was trying to define Obama and his message on McCain's terms (as shown in ad), they failed to really define McCain's message and identify who HE was as the Republican nominee. While Obama's campaign attempted to do the same with McCain, they also made a point of introducing Obama as the Democratic nominee and also focused on his message.

BUT, 3 weeks is a looong time. Its far from over
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Postby paulthefan » Mon Oct 13, 2008 3:47 pm

TrakFan wrote:As another poster mentioned, we'll know the true effect of everything on Nov 5th. ...

BUT, 3 weeks is a looong time. Its far from over


based on a lot of the comments folks are making we will learn nothing on Nov 5. Rather each will attribute the results to the prejudices that their hearts feel is in america. If Obama loses it will be seen by many to be the result of prejudice in america.

The real victory here has already happend and it is that a liberal senator just 44 years old and with a very skinny resume is very close to winning the presidency. He has run a brilliant campaign. If he does not win though, it will not be a surprise to those of us that follow this business.
Last edited by paulthefan on Mon Oct 13, 2008 3:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Marlow » Mon Oct 13, 2008 3:51 pm

paulthefan wrote:
TrakFan wrote:As another poster mentioned, we'll know the true effect of everything on Nov 5th. ...

BUT, 3 weeks is a looong time. Its far from over


based on a lot of the comments folks are making we will learn nothing on Nov 5. Rather each will attribute the results to the prejudices that our hearts feel is in america. If Obama loses it will be seen by many to be the result of prejudice in america and if he wins it will not be by enough and that will be due to prejudice in america.

That's the half-empty view IMO.
No matter who wins, it's a done deal, and the reason behind it is immaterial. Wringing our hands over the outcome is counter-productive, therefore irrational. I've voted on the 'wrong' side many times and my life continues unabated.
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Postby jazzcyclist » Mon Oct 13, 2008 3:57 pm

paulthefan wrote:
TrakFan wrote:As another poster mentioned, we'll know the true effect of everything on Nov 5th. ...

BUT, 3 weeks is a looong time. Its far from over


based on a lot of the comments folks are making we will learn nothing on Nov 5. Rather each will attribute the results to the prejudices that their hearts feel is in america. If Obama loses it will be seen by many to be the result of prejudice in america.

The real victory here has already happend and it is that a liberal senator just 44 years old and with a very skinny resume is very close to winning the presidency. He has run a brilliant campaign. If he does not win though, it will not be a surprise to those of us that follow this business.

On Nov. 5, we'll be able to compare the final polls to the actual results and compare their correlation to the polls and results in other Presidential elections. That was TrakFan's point, I believe.
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Postby tandfman » Mon Oct 13, 2008 4:36 pm

paulthefan wrote:The real victory here has already happend and it is that a liberal senator just 44 years old and with a very skinny resume is very close to winning the presidency.

JFK was a liberal senator just 43 years old with a very skinny resume when he was elected president.
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Postby jazzcyclist » Mon Oct 13, 2008 4:51 pm

tandfman wrote:
paulthefan wrote:The real victory here has already happend and it is that a liberal senator just 44 years old and with a very skinny resume is very close to winning the presidency.

JFK was a liberal senator just 43 years old with a very skinny resume when he was elected president.

And Obama is 47 years old, a year older than Bill Clinton was in 1992. It is a 44 year old conservative governor with a very skinny resume who is vying for the vice presidency.
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Postby paulthefan » Mon Oct 13, 2008 7:16 pm

tandfman wrote:
paulthefan wrote:The real victory here has already happend and it is that a liberal senator just 44 years old and with a very skinny resume is very close to winning the presidency.

JFK was a liberal senator just 43 years old with a very skinny resume when he was elected president.


JFK was the most liberal senator only in the 21st century Democrat mythology. JFK was a WW2 veteran who, by this season (oct) in 1960, was running to the right of Nixon and blaming the GOP candidate for going soft on communism. JFK was not the most liberal senator in 1960.
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Postby tandfman » Mon Oct 13, 2008 7:28 pm

Who said JFK was the most liberal senator? I didn't.
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Postby paulthefan » Mon Oct 13, 2008 8:47 pm

tandfman wrote:Who said JFK was the most liberal senator? I didn't.


no you didnt, for the record he was a ww2 veteran with a virulent anticommunist streak.
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Postby jazzcyclist » Mon Oct 13, 2008 9:04 pm

Let's be honest. The thin resume rap is just something we use when we don't agree with someone's politics. Nobody really has a problem with inexperienced politicians going into the White House as long as they agree with their politics. Conservatives didn't start turning on Palin until she started doing interviews and revealed her dearth of knowledge and preparedness.
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Postby paulthefan » Mon Oct 13, 2008 10:28 pm

jazzcyclist wrote:Let's be honest. The thin resume rap is just something we use when we don't agree with someone's politics. Nobody really has a problem with inexperienced politicians going into the White House as long as they agree with their politics. Conservatives didn't start turning on Palin until she started doing interviews and revealed her dearth of knowledge and preparedness.



Not really, most people do have a problem with inexperience. But it is seldom a completely disqualifying mark. i will guess that If Obama loses (and he seems to have a good chance of winning) it will be because most americans found him a little light in experience and a little too left in ideology. On the positive side if ever there were an election that was ripe for a liberal it is this one.

If in the last few weeks the GOP is able to "make Bill Ayers his running mate" we could see Obama in a severe tail spin. Just a remote possibility and something to ponder as we go into the final 3 weeks.
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Postby dukehjsteve » Tue Oct 14, 2008 4:06 am

If in the last few weeks the GOP is able to "make Bill Ayers his running mate" we could see Obama in a severe tail spin. Just a remote possibility and something to ponder as we go into the final 3 weeks.[/quote]

Paulthefan, do you think this is acceptable campaign strategy !!??
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Postby jazzcyclist » Tue Oct 14, 2008 4:48 am

paulthefan wrote:If in the last few weeks the GOP is able to "make Bill Ayers his running mate" we could see Obama in a severe tail spin. Just a remote possibility and something to ponder as we go into the final 3 weeks.

The people who continue to bark up the Bill Ayers tree conveniently overlook the fact that there is a de facto statute of limitation on the kind of stuff that he did back in the 60's. If not, then Robert Byrd and Strom Thurmond would have been pariahs their entire careers. Then there are the international figures who've been invited to the White House hundreds of times who did stuff that would make the amateurish activities of the Weather Underground - while Ayers was a member, the only people the WU managed to kill were their own members - seem like boy scout meetings. I'm talking Gerry Adams, Martin McGuiness, Menachem Begin, Yitzhak Shamir, Ariel Sharon, Yasir Arafat and Nelson Mandela to name a few. Finally, I think the American people are fair enough to conclude that if having a passing relationship with people who had committed dispicable acts before you knew them, didn't disqualify Trent Lott from being the Senate Majority Leader, it shouldn't disqualify Barack Obama from being President.
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Postby TrakFan » Tue Oct 14, 2008 4:49 am

paulthefan wrote:If in the last few weeks the GOP is able to "make Bill Ayers his running mate" we could see Obama in a severe tail spin. Just a remote possibility and something to ponder as we go into the final 3 weeks.


I think that would be much more effective if the McCain campaign had also focused on defining who HE was in the early part of the campaign. As I mentioneded earlier, both campaigns have done an effective job of defining the other candidate. However, the strategy you mention doesnt take into account that people still need a reason to choose the supposed "good guy". Other than the fact that many voters are intelligent enough to check facts, the supposed "bad guy" has done an effective job of taking out his own "good guy" insurance early in the campaign.

I'm still scratching my head at this and other McCain Campaign strategies that have failed to attract those Independent voters. This strategy excites the GOP base, and work for those who would lean that way anyway. But, it has been shown (during this Election) to REALLY turn off TRUE Independent voters. If there is any group that has a disdain for the traditional partisan bickering/name-calling/not getting anything done due to distraction, its the Independents.
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Postby racewalker » Tue Oct 14, 2008 5:48 am

McCain may come out of this whole thing as a figure out of a Greek tragedy, reminiscent of the old saying "Whom the gods would destroy, they first call to greatness." His gross negativity, questionable choices and campain tactics that feel so desperate may very well negate his prior image of a thoughtful man of integrity. Sad.
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Postby jazzcyclist » Tue Oct 14, 2008 6:22 am

racewalker wrote:McCain may come out of this whole thing as a figure out of a Greek tragedy, reminiscent of the old saying "Whom the gods would destroy, they first call to greatness." His gross negativity, questionable choices and campain tactics that feel so desperate may very well negate his prior image of a thoughtful man of integrity. Sad.

I still give McCain credit for refusing to play the Reverend Wright card, which Hillary played from the bottom of the deck. And last Friday, he adamantly corrected his supporters who tried to smear Obama with the Arab/Muslim/terrorist label, as opposed to Hillary with her "as for as I know" comment. As a matter of fact, Hillary has stood on stage with people and watched people smear Obama and stood by and said nothing. Now that things are looking good for Obama, the Clintons have suddenly gotten off their behinds and are hitting the campaign trail to make sure that they get credit for helping the winning team.
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Postby Mennisco » Tue Oct 14, 2008 8:14 am

Is Marina of "Hot for Words" Russian? Slavic? A relatively close neighbour of Palin['s sic?]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8O8rWViCixQ

Maybe she could help us understand the words wacky, independence, and party.....plus a little history on Alaska...
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Postby jazzcyclist » Tue Oct 14, 2008 9:45 am

jazzcyclist wrote:And the most unfortunate thing about all the Arab/Muslim rumors about Obama is not that people are trying to cost Obama the election, it's that in 2008, people still feel comfortabe using the name of a ethnic or religious group as a perjorative. And I'm not blaming one party because it happened in both the democratic primary and the general election. And I also blame Obama and McCain for not telling their supporters that there's nothing wrong with being an Arab or a Muslim. And Hillary is a disgrace with her "as far as I know" comment. Because I'm Black, I don't get all of the emails that my White friends get smearing Obama with these Arab/Muslim rumors. But they've showed me a few of them and it's sickening that people who will say, "I don't have a racist bone in my body", will send that crap. Just think how people would react if John McCain was being smeared as being a Jew.

This is what I'm talking about! I couldn't have said it better.
http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/10/13/ ... nnSTCVideo
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Postby SQUACKEE » Tue Oct 14, 2008 10:11 am

jazzcyclist wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote:And the most unfortunate thing about all the Arab/Muslim rumors about Obama is not that people are trying to cost Obama the election, it's that in 2008, people still feel comfortabe using the name of a ethnic or religious group as a perjorative. And I'm not blaming one party because it happened in both the democratic primary and the general election. And I also blame Obama and McCain for not telling their supporters that there's nothing wrong with being an Arab or a Muslim. And Hillary is a disgrace with her "as far as I know" comment. Because I'm Black, I don't get all of the emails that my White friends get smearing Obama with these Arab/Muslim rumors. But they've showed me a few of them and it's sickening that people who will say, "I don't have a racist bone in my body", will send that crap. Just think how people would react if John McCain was being smeared as being a Jew.

This is what I'm talking about! I couldn't have said it better.
http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/10/13/ ... nnSTCVideo


I would have no problem voting for a Muslim President if he /she shared my values.
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Postby Mennisco » Wed Oct 15, 2008 10:20 am

SQUACKEE wrote:I would have no problem voting for a Muslim President if he /she shared my values.


What, you show your face in public? :P

Where's the Mosque Lady when you need her? Dead in Denmark, most likely.

:wink:
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Postby paulthefan » Wed Oct 15, 2008 11:12 am

jazzcyclist wrote:Now that things are looking good for Obama, the Clintons have suddenly gotten off their behinds and are hitting the campaign trail to make sure that they get credit for helping the winning team.


Should we have expected otherwise after watching them for the past 16 years. Credit to Obama for holding his tongue countless times over the past 8 months while the wiley couple worked their magic.
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Postby rasb » Wed Oct 15, 2008 7:24 pm

Turn out the lights - the party is over...
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Postby tandfman » Wed Oct 15, 2008 7:33 pm

It ain't over 'till it's over.
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Postby paulthefan » Wed Oct 15, 2008 8:05 pm

After answering Bill Sch. question Obama secured 99% of the public school teacher vote that is for sure.


Both McCain and Obama did well in the last debate. Two tough competitors, if they were track athletes, Id call McCain a javelin thrower and Obama either a race-walker or a marathoner. Very different temperaments.
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Postby gm » Wed Oct 15, 2008 8:12 pm

paulthefan wrote:After answering Bill Sch. question Obama secured 99% of the public school teacher vote that is for sure.


When did the other 1% change sides? :lol:
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Postby jazzcyclist » Wed Oct 15, 2008 10:59 pm

I thought it was interesting that when Bob Scheiffer asked them to compare VP candidates, Obama decided to take the pitch. I'm sure many of his supporters thought that was an 80 mph fastball right across the middle of the plate, belt high, and were expecting him to knock it out of the park.
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Postby TrakFan » Thu Oct 16, 2008 12:19 am

jazzcyclist wrote:I thought it was interesting that when Bob Scheiffer asked them to compare VP candidates, Obama decided to take the pitch. I'm sure many of his supporters thought that was an 80 mph fastball right across the middle of the plate, belt high, and were expecting him to knock it out of the park.


His response, or lack of a critical response toward his opponent's running mate was very smart. He's the big dog (Presidential nominee), and doesn't need to belittle his position by starting a tit for tat with a little dog (VP nominee). And Palin would have LOVED for him to say something critical since it would give her more ammo to excite the base on the trail. Most importantly, it was smart to be non-critical since women make up the majority of the electorate, and they tend to vote more often than men. No need to unnecessarily tick some of them off. I'm sure his gracious response -- although she didn't deserve it based on what she's been saying about him -- won over some of those undecided female voters.
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Postby Marlow » Thu Oct 16, 2008 6:45 am

I received this in an e-mail today (wide distribution list). It illustrates the degree to which some people feel the need to demonize the opposition. I'm sure there are anti-McCain diatribes as equally objectionable:

the content was so stupid, I couldn't even bear to look at it any more!


I would put the author in MattM's category.
Last edited by Marlow on Thu Oct 16, 2008 1:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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