The VP Gaffe Over & Under


Normally open July 4th only---the one day a year when partisan politics, religion, etc. are acceptable topics on this Board (within reason). The forum is now closed.

Postby Mennisco » Thu Oct 16, 2008 3:56 pm

TrakFan wrote:
Mennisco wrote:Captain Flyswatter's all over the place today....

:lol:


Yes, you were a bad boy earlier today. But, it was caught early enouth to to be handled with a scalpel - instead of an ax :wink:


Nobody can aim that well.
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Postby JRM » Thu Oct 16, 2008 4:28 pm

gh wrote:
TrakFan wrote:I've changed my mind...I'm voting for Joe The Plumber!!!


Ooops, Joe springs a bit of a leak!

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.c ... 345D24.DTL


He also apparently owes back-taxes (apologizes if it was in the article).... and his name is apparently Sam, not Joe.
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Postby malmo » Thu Oct 16, 2008 5:32 pm

gh wrote:
TrakFan wrote:I've changed my mind...I'm voting for Joe The Plumber!!!


Ooops, Joe springs a bit of a leak!

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.c ... 345D24.DTL


He owes like a whole $1000 to the State of Ohio? Like perhaps had they sent the notices to his current address rather than like his old address, like they might have gotten paid? Like what the heck do the facts matter to a lynch mob, right?

Any word or Charlie Rangels and Al Frankens "leaks"?

What was that committee that Rangel heads?
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Postby jazzcyclist » Thu Oct 16, 2008 5:43 pm

Here we go again. I guess some of us just can't resist stepping over the line. :(
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Postby malmo » Thu Oct 16, 2008 5:49 pm

jazzcyclist wrote:Here we go again. I guess some of us just can't resist stepping over the line. :(


With the race-baiting above that line was long ago crossed. This thread is another political thread and a patently partisan one from top to bottom.

Facts about Joe-the-Witch-burn-the-witch

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid= ... refer=home

If a delinquency notice goes unheeded, the Department of Taxation issues a billing notice, Kohlstrand said. If that is ignored, a more formal assessment notice is sent. Failing to appeal an assessment or losing an appeal puts the debt into the hands of the state attorney general for collection. The attorney general typically sends a collection notice and simultaneously files a lien.

``The taxpayers may not necessarily know about the lien,'' Kohlstrand said, although they would receive other notices.

"In Wurzelbacher's case, the lien indicated that the notice was sent to a previous address in Toledo."


Ray Ann Estep, section chief for revenue-recovery services for the Ohio attorney general, said Wurzelbacher's lien was filed six months after the Department of Taxation certified the debt for collection.

``Unfortunately, sometimes people don't resolve their debts as quickly as we would like them to,'' she sai

Don't let the facts get in the way of another witch hunt.
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Postby jazzcyclist » Thu Oct 16, 2008 6:10 pm

malmo wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote:Here we go again. I guess some of us just can't resist stepping over the line. :(


With the race-baiting above that line was long ago crossed. This thread is another political thread and a patently partisan one from top to bottom.

Facts about Joe-the-Witch-burn-the-witch

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid= ... refer=home

.....................................

Don't let the facts get in the way of another witch hunt.

The Man himself posted about Joe the Plumber, so that can't be a rules violation, because The Man makes the rules. Furthermore, as far as I know, Joe the Plumber is not a political figure, unlike the two gentlemen that you mentioned. As for race-baiting, I haven't seen it.
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Postby sprintblox » Thu Oct 16, 2008 6:19 pm

A debate highlight for McCain:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l63SRpGXBHE
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Postby paulthefan » Thu Oct 16, 2008 6:22 pm

TrakFan wrote:And he hasnt been paying his tax bills? I'm going to reconsider my vote!

"America's Overnight Sensation Joe the Plumber Owes $1,200 in Taxes
Ohio Has a Lien on Him for Nearly $1,200 in Taxes "

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/Vote2008/stor ... 360&page=1


That should be enough to teach him not to be a small business man in Obama's america! After this months events he will know enough teach his kids to be community organizers, Fannie Mae execs, lawyers or bankers.
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Postby rasb » Thu Oct 16, 2008 6:28 pm

What a joke !
It turns out that Joe (who was mentioned 26 times in the final debate to give the public a chance to hear answers to real issues) is actually Sam, a non-plumber ( not certified in Ohio). He also admits he makes nowhere near the 1/4 million required to trigger a tax raise under the D. plan, so all the bluff and bluster was much ado about nothing.
So much for an educated electorate. Whatever side of the "great divide" one is on, I can't believe anyone thinks this is what people should be voting on.
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Postby malmo » Thu Oct 16, 2008 6:48 pm

jazzcyclist wrote:Plumber is not a political figure, unlike the two gentlemen that you mentioned. As for race-baiting, I haven't seen it.


Of course you don't. The mantra of the left wing looneys.

SQUACKEE wrote:I always suspected that Republicans are racist and now we have proof.
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Postby rasb » Thu Oct 16, 2008 7:08 pm

I'm sure we can all agree that there are both extreme left and right wing looneys, and that anyone who is on this board, and thus appreciates our sport, must be somewhere in between :wink:
And from a totally non-partisan perspective, if I'm a small biz. guy, and I have paid all my bills and salaries, and am able to pocket $ 250. K. a year after that, I don't mind paying a bit more. Especially if I can see that at least some of that money is being targeted towards better education and health care, which will benefit my family and my employees and their families.
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Postby bad hammy » Thu Oct 16, 2008 7:19 pm

malmo wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote:Plumber is not a political figure, unlike the two gentlemen that you mentioned. As for race-baiting, I haven't seen it.


Of course you don't. The mantra of the left wing looneys.

SQUACKEE wrote:I always suspected that Republicans are racist and now we have proof.

You've been around here long enough that you should know when SQUACKEE (far from a left wing looney) is kidding (which is pretty much whenever he posts).
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Postby jazzcyclist » Thu Oct 16, 2008 7:25 pm

malmo wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote:Plumber is not a political figure, unlike the two gentlemen that you mentioned. As for race-baiting, I haven't seen it.


Of course you don't. The mantra of the left wing looneys.

SQUACKEE wrote:I always suspected that Republicans are racist and now we have proof.

You've got to lighten up. I thought it was pretty obvious that SQUACKEE was just joking in a non-partisan way, the way McCain and Obama were cracking jokes on each other tonight. Didn't you see the smiley face at the end of his post?
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Postby paulthefan » Thu Oct 16, 2008 8:31 pm

rasb wrote:I'm sure we can all agree that there are both extreme left and right wing looneys, .....


I can agree with that and when the rightwing looneys start wanting 1/4 of my pay check Ill have two classes of looneys to worry about.


And from a totally non-partisan perspective, if I'm a small biz. guy, and I have paid all my bills and salaries, and am able to pocket $ 250. K. a year after that, I don't mind paying a bit more. Especially if I can see that at least some of that money is being targeted towards better education and health care, which will benefit my family and my employees and their families.


and even better if it is targeted to benefit teachers purses, community activists and dumbing down education.... just repeat after me: it is for the children.
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Postby malmo » Thu Oct 16, 2008 9:06 pm

jazzcyclist wrote:
malmo wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote:Plumber is not a political figure, unlike the two gentlemen that you mentioned. As for race-baiting, I haven't seen it.


Of course you don't. The mantra of the left wing looneys.

SQUACKEE wrote:I always suspected that Republicans are racist and now we have proof.

You've got to lighten up. I thought it was pretty obvious that SQUACKEE was just joking in a non-partisan way, the way McCain and Obama were cracking jokes on each other tonight. Didn't you see the smiley face at the end of his post?


How the hell is this a non-partisan joke? Please explain?

"I always suspected that Republicans are racist and now we have proof."

It's malicious, provocative and hateful.
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Postby Marlow » Fri Oct 17, 2008 2:54 am

malmo wrote:It's malicious, provocative and hateful.

Remember the Foghorn Leghorn line you like to quote?
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Postby jazzcyclist » Fri Oct 17, 2008 3:08 am

malmo wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote:
malmo wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote:Plumber is not a political figure, unlike the two gentlemen that you mentioned. As for race-baiting, I haven't seen it.


Of course you don't. The mantra of the left wing looneys.

SQUACKEE wrote:I always suspected that Republicans are racist and now we have proof.

You've got to lighten up. I thought it was pretty obvious that SQUACKEE was just joking in a non-partisan way, the way McCain and Obama were cracking jokes on each other tonight. Didn't you see the smiley face at the end of his post?


How the hell is this a non-partisan joke? Please explain?

"I always suspected that Republicans are racist and now we have proof."

It's malicious, provocative and hateful.

I just thought that that statement was so over-the-top, that it was obvious that he was joking, especially with the smiley face at the end of it. But, I guess you have a point. My rule of thumb is that if you tell a provocative joke and someone doesn't get it, then the joke has failed.
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Postby SQUACKEE » Fri Oct 17, 2008 3:13 am

jazzcyclist wrote:
malmo wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote:
malmo wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote:Plumber is not a political figure, unlike the two gentlemen that you mentioned. As for race-baiting, I haven't seen it.


Of course you don't. The mantra of the left wing looneys.

SQUACKEE wrote:I always suspected that Republicans are racist and now we have proof.

You've got to lighten up. I thought it was pretty obvious that SQUACKEE was just joking in a non-partisan way, the way McCain and Obama were cracking jokes on each other tonight. Didn't you see the smiley face at the end of his post?


How the hell is this a non-partisan joke? Please explain?

"I always suspected that Republicans are racist and now we have proof."

It's malicious, provocative and hateful.

I just thought that that statement was so over-the-top, that it was obvious that he was joking, especially with the smiley face at the end of it. But, I guess you have a point. My rule of thumb is that if you tell a provocative joke and someone doesn't get it, then the joke has failed.


:shock: :arrow: :wink: :arrow: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Postby Marlow » Fri Oct 17, 2008 3:40 am

jazzcyclist wrote:My rule of thumb is that if you tell a provocative joke and someone doesn't get it, then the joke has failed.

What if most of the audience gets it and laughs? Do the few who don't 'get' it determine whether it was funny? Some people find Jon Stewart's political jokes rude and obnoxious. Many find him to be the funniest pundit.
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Postby SQUACKEE » Fri Oct 17, 2008 3:53 am

Marlow wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote:My rule of thumb is that if you tell a provocative joke and someone doesn't get it, then the joke has failed.

What if most of the audience gets it and laughs? Do the few who don't 'get' it determine whether it was funny? Some people find Jon Stewart's political jokes rude and obnoxious. Many find him to be the funniest pundit.


Let me try again......Clinton having sex with an intern in the oral office proves that all Democratic Presidents have done and will do the same! :lol: :arrow: :lol: :arrow: :lol: :!:
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Postby mojo » Tue Oct 21, 2008 8:28 am

Squackee isn't a left wing loony? :( :o



I have never felt so lied to and betrayed.



Good day to you sir! :twisted:
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Postby SQUACKEE » Tue Oct 21, 2008 8:52 am

mojo wrote:Squackee isn't a left wing loony? :( :o



I have never felt so lied to and betrayed.



Good day to you sir! :twisted:


No, im a radical moderate, fiscally conservative, social liberal with a touch of Karl and Groucho Marx.

Oh and anyone who wants to kill my fellow citizens... i want to blow them up. :D

That is all...good day to you good woman!
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Postby Mennisco » Tue Oct 21, 2008 9:01 am

SQUACKEE wrote:
Let me try again......Clinton having sex with an intern in the oral office proves that all Democratic Presidents have done and will do the same! :lol: :arrow: :lol: :arrow: :lol: :!:


Good thing John McCain isn't the Democratic nominee.
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Postby tandfman » Tue Oct 21, 2008 9:15 am

SQUACKEE wrote:Let me try again......Clinton having sex with an intern in the oral office proves that all Democratic Presidents have done and will do the same!

The oral office? The truth, SQUACKEE, was that a typo or deliberate humor?
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Postby SQUACKEE » Tue Oct 21, 2008 9:26 am

tandfman wrote:
SQUACKEE wrote:Let me try again......Clinton having sex with an intern in the oral office proves that all Democratic Presidents have done and will do the same!

The oral office? The truth, SQUACKEE, was that a typo or deliberate humor?


With me, who knows! :D .....deliberate. 8-)
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Postby paulthefan » Tue Oct 21, 2008 7:59 pm

SQUACKEE wrote:No, im a radical moderate, fiscally conservative, social liberal with a touch of Karl and Groucho Marx.

Oh and anyone who wants to kill my fellow citizens... i want to blow them up. :D

That is all...good day to you good woman!


Squakee, You have a great sense of humor and a good pick for VP,

Grocho Marx:.. Those are my principles and if you don't like them, well , I have others.
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Postby Brian » Tue Oct 21, 2008 8:01 pm

jazzcyclist wrote:Let's be honest. The thin resume rap is just something we use when we don't agree with someone's politics. Nobody really has a problem with inexperienced politicians going into the White House as long as they agree with their politics. Conservatives didn't start turning on Palin until she started doing interviews and revealed her dearth of knowledge and preparedness.



Almost feel sorry for McCain at this point. Two weeks to go with no major gaffe by the Obama crew (and judging by The Man playing it so safe in the last debate, none to come), it's now glaringly obvious Rove and the GOP intelligencia have given up. Barring a last minute miracle, it's Obama's.


I almost feel sorry for McCain because, of course, HE isn't giving up like those above and some of those around him. The proof of their "abandoning ship" is in the handling of Palin now. She is doing what is good for her, not the McCain campaign. Both she and her husband (he appeared at at an outdoors store here in Minnesota to say hi) are playing up the likeability component while the spotlight is still on her--all in preparation for her future in national GOP politics, probably by party honcho plan (by Rove, if no other; he believes he is a starmaker). If in doubt, consider: Of the four candidates, she already has far and away the greatest likeability. But she also has the least respect as far as credibility in potentially running the country. So do the GOP planners schedule photo-ops with her meeting pentagon generals, ecomomists, or anyone else who could show she has--or is at least striving to acquire--a deeper perspective/substance on the issues in order to help the McCain campaign? Nope. They encourage her to go on Saturday Night Live.

Now, there's nothing wrong (and a lot right, actually) with appearing on SNL. But such appearances do only one thing: help increase likeability. Great stuff for policy-wonk candidates like Obama, Biden and McCain--shows they are real people who don't take themselves so seriously they can't laugh at themselves, take a hit, and have fun. But for Palin, showing a perceived policy lightweight having "more fun" when she needs to be more serious works against her.

Unless...

You are planning to show her strengths now (good looks, communication skills, likeability) while you have the camera's attention and are planning on periodic pieces during the next 2.5 years that progressively show her getting her hands dirty with serious policy subjects (i.e, trips overseas, etc.).

Having fun on SNL will not change the minds of undecided voters, most of whom have named Palin as the second reason--right after McCain's response to the economic crisis--as to why they hesitate to vote for McCain. Those who already love her don't matter in the last month, it is those still on the fence that require a campaign's full attention.


At his Minnesota appearance, her husband had next to nothing to say to help the McCain campaign. He did have a lot to do showing the people of Northern Minnesota how much he (and by extension, his wife) were "just like you guys." It's called laying the groundwork in a future swing state. Outside of Tipper Gore--who had already achieved national notoriety with her work concerning labling record albums with explicit song lyrics--the spouse of a VICE presidential candidate rarely campaigns, especially alone, or even is encouraged to do so, since they may distort the message and/or cause embarrassing gaffes that hurt the candidates. But if the whole idea is to play John the Baptist and prepare the masses for the future Big Event, then hey, just get out there and be friendly, there's no concern about causing harm. So say a big aw, shucks hello to Todd Palin, folks, here to keep the good feelings for his wife going strong so you have a warmth in your heart for her either 2.5 or 6.5 years from now.


Meanwhile, the rug is slowly being pulled out from under McCain. The navy man will soon find himself the only one left on the sinking ship. The GOP heads know all too well the stats concerning a Democratic Party victory when the economy is bad; the Wall Street mess built the coffin, not being able to trip up Obama in the debates was the last handfull of of nails.

And maybe a GOP loss isn't so bad this time around, they reluctantly rationalize...let the other guys clean up the mess while you regroup: The party attack dogs undermine, coffers are replenished, and the next candidate is groomed.


McCain deserves better. But he has no one to blame but himself. Palin was his choice, and while Obama chose Biden, someone strong in an area wherein he was perceived to be relatively weak (foreign policy) in order to both shore up that "weakness" and later be better at the job of being president, McCain chose his VP candidate to energize the base and help win the election, period. For that decision alone, it can be argued--as many in the Republican party are now doing (including Colin Powell)--McCain doesn't deserve to win.


I've said it earlier: This is not the same guy that was running in 2000. For whatever reason, his responses to situations and campaign decisions are dramatically different. A pity.
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Postby TrakFan » Tue Oct 21, 2008 8:32 pm

Brian wrote:
McCain deserves better. But he has no one to blame but himself. Palin was his choice, and while Obama chose Biden, someone strong in an area wherein he was perceived to be relatively weak (foreign policy) in order to both shore up that "weakness" and later be better at the job of being president, McCain chose his VP candidate to energize the base and help win the election, period. For that decision alone, it can be argued--as many in the Republican party are now doing (including Colin Powell)--McCain doesn't deserve to win. .


Its far from over, but McCain really misjudged the willingness of those female Hillary supporters to move to his side solely because he chose a woman. He (wrongly) believed the media hype concerning the extent of cracks within the Democratic party, and failed to respect the ability of Obama and his campaign to win over nearly every demographic - including those Hillary supporters who were very angry immediately after the primaries.
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Postby lonewolf » Tue Oct 21, 2008 8:56 pm

Brian, exactly what position do you enjoy on the DNC? :) Please don't capitulate on behalf of a considerable slice of the populace that doesn't agree with your assessment.
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Postby Brian » Tue Oct 21, 2008 9:09 pm

lonewolf wrote:Brian, exactly what position do you enjoy on the DNC? :) Please don't capitulate on behalf of a considerable slice of the populace that doesn't agree with your assessment.



Feel free to disagree (as did TrakFan). It's just my opinion.
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Postby cullman » Tue Oct 21, 2008 9:15 pm

Marlow wrote:
malmo wrote:It's malicious, provocative and hateful.

Remember the Foghorn Leghorn line you like to quote?

Or he's quoting Senator Beauregard Claghorn aka Kenny Delmar. :wink:

"The character inspired the creation of one of the most popular of the Warners' cartoon characters, Foghorn Leghorn, who re-worked most of the originals material and style."

imdb: It's A Joke, Son! (1947) ...and now, back to our regular scheduled program...

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Postby Daisy » Tue Oct 21, 2008 9:16 pm

lonewolf wrote:Please don't capitulate on behalf of a considerable slice of the populace that doesn't agree with your assessment.


I do see McCain apparently being uncomfortable with his own campaign. Or at least the results of it (for example, having to correct the lady who thought Obama was an Arab). I assume the people around him are the ones that have made him appear a different candidate to 2000.

As for Palin, while she may be grooming herself for four years time, is it not more likely she is grooming herself for a television show? After all, she already has TV experience, and it would be more lucrative.
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Postby TrakFan » Tue Oct 21, 2008 9:28 pm

Brian wrote:
lonewolf wrote:Brian, exactly what position do you enjoy on the DNC? :) Please don't capitulate on behalf of a considerable slice of the populace that doesn't agree with your assessment.



Feel free to disagree (as did TrakFan). It's just my opinion.


I don't disagree. Earlier in this thread you'll see my comments concerning their lack of effort to win over Independent voters. Althugh McCain's base may not have been excited, they wouldn't have simply given away a vote to an "anti-American" "socialist" that "pals around with terrorists", who "is willing to lose a war to win the presidnecy" on Nov 4th.

My comments should be seen as an additional misjudgement by the McCain campaign.

What's really scary and sad is that another elected official used all of those terms to describe his opponent.
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Postby lonewolf » Tue Oct 21, 2008 10:37 pm

Must be open season on Republicans on the forum. I know I should leave well enough alone but Brian's disseration comes across as a thinly disguised dismissal of both the quality and chances of the Republican ticket which I felt obliged to challenge.

I concede that McCain, a weak nominee selected by the MSM for that very reason, is a lousy speaker and debater and has run an unbelievably inept campaign but hope springs eternal that on November 4 people will vote for character, issues and principles, not oratory.

Granted, I may be over estimating the perspicacity of the voters. :(
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Postby Brian » Tue Oct 21, 2008 10:56 pm

lonewolf wrote:Must be open season on Republicans on the forum. I know I should leave well enough alone but Brian's disseration comes across as a thinly disguised dismissal of both the quality and chances of the Republican ticket which I felt obliged to challenge.

I concede that McCain, a weak nominee selected by the MSM for that very reason, is a lousy speaker and debater and has run an unbelievably inept campaign but hope springs eternal that on November 4 people will vote for character, issues and principles, not oratory.

Granted, I may be over estimating the perspicacity of the voters. :(



You may be right. I did mention "barring a miracle", so I am acknowledging the possiblility of a McCain win. But it would take a miracle, down this much with no solid plan to get back up there except either an opponent screw-up or an Right Wing epiphany from a majority of undecided voters--both of which, to me, at least, constitutes a minor miracle at this stage.

Sorry if I offended you; I'm not really taking a shot here, it's just that the GOP ticket is at a disadvantage now so it seems like it. I'm just making observations on how (to me) things are shaping up now, with two weeks to go, as far as the journey itself.


Glad you challenged the notion all may be lost. That's called faith. Something everyone should have.
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Postby Brian » Tue Oct 21, 2008 11:12 pm

Daisy wrote:As for Palin, while she may be grooming herself for four years time, is it not more likely she is grooming herself for a television show? After all, she already has TV experience, and it would be more lucrative.



I hear she will be co-hosting a reality show with Gabe:

http://mb.trackandfieldnews.com/discuss ... hp?t=33417


Working title is "On the Road, Lock & Load." :]
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Postby SQUACKEE » Wed Oct 22, 2008 3:37 am

paulthefan wrote:
SQUACKEE wrote:No, im a radical moderate, fiscally conservative, social liberal with a touch of Karl and Groucho Marx.

Oh and anyone who wants to kill my fellow citizens... i want to blow them up. :D

That is all...good day to you good woman!


Squakee, You have a great sense of humor and a good pick for VP,

Grocho Marx:.. Those are my principles and if you don't like them, well , I have others.


Yes, i love Groucho, he played a scoundrel which is perfect for politics and i recently saw a scene from one of his movies that proves he his fiscally responsible.

Groucho enters a hotel lobby with 10 suitcases. Tip time has arrived and he asks the 10 porters if they have change for a dime. When they shake their heads he says " Keep the luggage!" :lol:
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Postby TrakFan » Wed Oct 22, 2008 4:08 am

lonewolf wrote:Must be open season on Republicans on the forum.


I don’t think its open season on the Republicans, but there is a lot of disappointment and anger from all sides concerning the tone of McCain’s campaign. A very popular Republican, Colin Powell, summed it up very well when he mentioned that their message has become “increasingly narrower” over the last couple of months. He specifically mentioned hearing certain things from senior members of his party concerning many of the issues that have pushed him and others away from this candidate, and his the party.
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Postby jazzcyclist » Wed Oct 22, 2008 5:23 am

lonewolf wrote:Must be open season on Republicans on the forum. I know I should leave well enough alone but Brian's disseration comes across as a thinly disguised dismissal of both the quality and chances of the Republican ticket which I felt obliged to challenge.

I concede that McCain, a weak nominee selected by the MSM for that very reason, is a lousy speaker and debater and has run an unbelievably inept campaign but hope springs eternal that on November 4 people will vote for character, issues and principles, not oratory.

Granted, I may be over estimating the perspicacity of the voters. :(

Have you considered that many people who put character, issues and principles first, may end up choosing the candidate who just happens to have the superior oratory skills? Remember, not everyone prioritizes the same issues or has the same principles.

Personally, I think that McCain's problem was that he wasn't able to secure his base in the primary the way Obama was, and instead of running to the middle in the general election, he's had to run to the right. It seems like the base in both parties expect candidates to prove that you're one of them in the primary, and then they'll forgive you for anything you say in the general election as just hollow rhetoric that's necessary to get votes from the middle. Obama resisted pressure from Democrats to pick Hillary and chose a running mate that would help him appeal to the middle, but McCain succumbed to pressure from Republicans in order to appease his base.

The ironic thing is that I think the McCain of 2000 vintage could have beaten Obama, but unfortunately, that McCain could never get the Republican nomination.
Last edited by jazzcyclist on Wed Oct 22, 2008 5:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby SQUACKEE » Wed Oct 22, 2008 5:26 am

It seems to me everything swung Obama's way when the economy tanked. All the other stuff is secondary. imho
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