Frontline: League of Denial


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Re: Frontline: League of Denial

Postby Pego » Fri Oct 18, 2013 5:45 pm

jazzcyclist wrote:
Pego wrote:A proverbial "out of sight, out of mind" attitude.

Just to be sure that I correctly understand you, are you saying that your son is as gung-ho about your grandson playing football as he was about playing himself? Does he fall in the Dixon camp regarding his attitude about CTE?


No, far from it. CTE represents result of repetitive head trauma. So far, nothing close to even the first one has happened.
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Re: Frontline: League of Denial

Postby jazzcyclist » Fri Oct 18, 2013 6:19 pm

So I take it that your grandson is a concussion or two from having your son pull the plug on his football career? I can sympathize with your son's position since your grandson presumably started playing football before all this CTE stuff became widely known, and it would have been hard for him to justify denying something to his son that you allowed him to have.
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Re: Frontline: League of Denial

Postby Pego » Sat Oct 19, 2013 4:28 am

jazzcyclist wrote:So I take it that your grandson is a concussion or two from having your son pull the plug on his football career? I can sympathize with your son's position since your grandson presumably started playing football before all this CTE stuff became widely known, and it would have been hard for him to justify denying something to his son that you allowed him to have.


I am not sure what you are trying to point out, so just a couple of qualifiers.

First of all, what has come out in public recently has been known to neurologists for decades (I did mention that my daughter-in-law is a neurologist, perfectly familiar with the concept of head injuries long before her son decided to play football). We used to refer to it as a "battered brain syndrome" before a pathological entity of Chronic traumatic encephalopathy was introduced in the literature. We have seen discoloration of parts of the brain (mostly the tips of different lobi) from repetitive trauma on autopsy materials. That was mostly in boxers and alcoholics (falls, fights).

CTE is still relatively rare, even among professional football players, just as paralyzing spinal cord injuries are. I am not saying that head injuries (generally referred to as "concussions", even though it is actual cerebral contusions/lacerations that lead to CTE) are rare, no they are common, but most of them are self-limited and do not lead to major long-term problems.

There is one thing where I sympathize with Dixon's position. All (well, most) sports have risk of injury, even devastating ones. As a competitive cyclist, you know what your sport's risks are. Pole vaulters, gymnasts, as bambam keeps emphasizing, the trampoliners, skiers, water skiers, all individual, elegant, non-contact sports risk a loss of life and limb. Hell, even cheerleaders occasionally break their neck by falling from the pyramid.

Yes, both my daughter-in-law and I have been fretting when the kid started playing football, especially when they started tackling (he is in his third year of tackle football as an 8-grader). That fear usually dissipates when he runs 80 yards from the scrimmage for a TD. You just cheer then. He is determined to play high school football. What happens after that remains to be seen.
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Re: Frontline: League of Denial

Postby bambam » Sat Oct 19, 2013 5:19 am

Pego wrote:Hell, even cheerleaders occasionally break their neck by falling from the pyramid.


About 20 years ago at a Duke basketball game, one of the opposing team's cheerleaders fell from the top of a pyramid, and sustained a cervical-spine fracture. Not quite sure of the details but I think she became quadriplegic as a result. Pyramids by cheerleaders since banned at Duke basketball games.

So Pego is right that it can happen in tons of sports. In the one we all love, T&F, the pole vault can be very dangerous on occasion. So I know there's not a great answer, but if I had a son, I really would want him to play some other sport than football.
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Re: Frontline: League of Denial

Postby Pego » Sat Oct 19, 2013 5:31 am

bambam wrote:
Pego wrote:Hell, even cheerleaders occasionally break their neck by falling from the pyramid.


About 20 years ago at a Duke basketball game, one of the opposing team's cheerleaders fell from the top of a pyramid, and sustained a cervical-spine fracture. Not quite sure of the details but I think she became quadriplegic as a result. Pyramids by cheerleaders since banned at Duke basketball games.

So Pego is right that it can happen in tons of sports. In the one we all love, T&F, the pole vault can be very dangerous on occasion. So I know there's not a great answer, but if I had a son, I really would want him to play some other sport than football.


Yes, I have no argument here.
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Re: Frontline: League of Denial

Postby jazzcyclist » Sat Oct 19, 2013 5:43 am

Thanks for the background information Pego. For some reason, I got the impression that your grandson was a older, like a college freshman or a high school senior. Now I see where you're coming from. As we both know, the kinetic energy involved in a 12th grade collision is significantly greater than that involved in an 8th grade collision

The impression I got from the PBS documentary is that CTE was a relatively new finding in the medical community, but you're saying that neurologists were familiar concept long before the name CTE was given to it. Perhaps in the overall scheme of things, football-related CTE is rare, but anecdotally, it seems much more common than paralysis. Since I started following pro football over 40 years ago, I can only recall two players (Darryl Stingley and Mike Utley) being paralyzed, but there have been dozens who have suffered permanent brain injuries that I'm aware of, not to mention the ones who haven't made it to the news. Additionally, I know a couple of current NFL players personally (a first cousin and his college roommate), and it's something they worry about. One of them has admitted concealing a concussion from his team in a contract year, and the other has already noticed problems with memory, but both seem addicted to the money and lifestyle and I worry about what will become of them when they're no longer in the game.

I guess people rationalize taking risks by the perceived likelihood of them being one of the unlucky ones. Folks who skydive know that there's always a possibility that their chute won't open, but they rationalize doing it by saying to themselves that there's only a 1 in 100,000 chance (made up number) that this will happen. I would imagine that it's the same way with other adventure sports such as bungee jumping, mountain climbing and white-water rafting.
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Re: Frontline: League of Denial

Postby bambam » Sat Oct 19, 2013 5:50 am

Jazzy, your #s are very low for paralysis, and even death in football. Actually there is a center that tracks this and it is as UNC (North Carolina). I don't recall the name of it, unfortunately, but I'm sure there is a website. Every year there are several deaths, and several cases of paralysis from football injuries. The deaths include heat-related things, cardiac arrhythmias, etc.

CTE was well-described, as Pego noted, at least 50 years ago, but at the time only in boxers. Showed up in other areas later, and football only described in the last few years.

In what we do for exercise, cycling, I worry about injuries too. When riding up in New Hampshire, I like to climb mountains. That's hard but what worries me is descending and I no longer have the balls to descend flat-out. I tap the brakes much more than I used to. All you need to do is hit a pebble at 50 mph coming down and you could be toast. And there's always the chance to be hit by a car - stuff happens as Pego noted.

But I still won't want my kid playing football.
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Re: Frontline: League of Denial

Postby bambam » Sat Oct 19, 2013 5:52 am

http://www.unc.edu/depts/nccsi/

National Center for Catastrophic Sport Injury Research
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Re: Frontline: League of Denial

Postby gh » Sat Oct 19, 2013 5:54 am

gh wrote:depending on how you read between the lines in the Arizona case, they may not have had much choice

<<at the advice of their doctors, their football career is over.”>>

Doesn't the NCAA (probably because of liability concerns) have pretty strict no-more-play rules regards concussions? I seem to recall a rash lately of local women basketball/soccer/volleyball types who have been forced to step away from the game.


Coincidentally SF Chron had a followup on this today.

http://www.sfgate.com/collegesports/art ... 908350.php
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Re: Frontline: League of Denial

Postby bambam » Sat Oct 19, 2013 5:56 am

I never looked at that site before - pretty interesting stuff. Go look at some of the tables about the incidence of fatalities related to head and neck trauma. One thing to note is that they are much less common than they used to be. At one time there were 20-30 per year in high school football nationwide.
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Re: Frontline: League of Denial

Postby jazzcyclist » Sat Oct 19, 2013 6:13 am

bambam wrote:So Pego is right that it can happen in tons of sports. In the one we all love, T&F, the pole vault can be very dangerous on occasion. So I know there's not a great answer, but if I had a son, I really would want him to play some other sport than football.

I have a hunch that a person's profession can cause them to be more sensitive to certain risks than the general populace, thus you're more sensitive to paralysis risks than most folks and it's the same with Pego and brain injury risks. My brother, who is a pediatrician, can seem anal at times when discussing the children of other family members with them. With me, it's safety when during chores around the house, especially if any sort of chemicals are involved, and my friends and family probably think I'm paranoid, and at times they've no doubt been annoyed when I interrupted what they were doing and forced them to do it safely.
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Re: Frontline: League of Denial

Postby jazzcyclist » Sat Oct 19, 2013 6:35 am

bambam wrote:Jazzy, your #s are very low for paralysis, and even death in football.

I apologize if I gave the impression that I was stating definitive facts and figures or citing actual numbers from studies. I was admittedly pulling 1:1000 and 1:100,000 out of my ass just for the sake of the argument. The only thing that I said is that I only recall two NFL cases of paralysis since I've been following football, but that doesn't necessarily mean that there weren't more cases besides Stingley and Utley that I've forgotten or never heard about.

bambam wrote:In what we do for exercise, cycling, I worry about injuries too. When riding up in New Hampshire, I like to climb mountains. That's hard but what worries me is descending and I no longer have the balls to descend flat-out. I tap the brakes much more than I used to. All you need to do is hit a pebble at 50 mph coming down and you could be toast. And there's always the chance to be hit by a car - stuff happens as Pego noted.

Having played football and biked competitively, road cycling seems more dangerous to me, especially when you consider all the miles you spend on the roads training by yourself when the cops don't have traffic blocked off. I casually knew a couple of local cyclists that were killed in a weekly training race that I frequently did, and I was very good friends with two other cyclists who were injured in the same incident when a truck crossed the center line. When I biked in the Alps while in Europe, I enjoyed the challenge of going up the steep climbs at 6-8 m.p.h., but I had absolutely appetite for descending any faster than 35 m.p.h. And though I've done a few criteriums and never crashed, I've decided to quit while I'm ahead, and I seriously doubt that I'll ever do another one. IMO, anyone who has ever won a Grand Tour had a willingness to descend at speeds most folks would think is suicidal.
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Re: Frontline: League of Denial

Postby Pego » Sat Oct 19, 2013 6:44 am

jazzcyclist wrote:besides Stingley and Utley


Another heavily publicized case was Nick Buaniconti's son.
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Re: Frontline: League of Denial

Postby bambam » Sat Oct 19, 2013 6:54 am

jazzcyclist wrote:IMO, anyone who has ever won a Grand Tour had a willingness to descend at speeds most folks would think is suicidal.


The greatest descender ever in the peleton was considered to be Gaston Nencini (from the late 50s and 60s). It was said of him that you would only follow him on a descent if you had a death wish.
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Re: Frontline: League of Denial

Postby jazzcyclist » Sat Oct 19, 2013 6:59 am

Pego wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote:besides Stingley and Utley


Another heavily publicized case was Nick Buaniconti's son.

I was talking strictly about NFL players. I'm well aware of several other college and high school players, including Buoniconti's son, who were paralyzed on the football field. Over the last 40 years, the number of debilitating NFL CTE injuries seems to be much greater than the number of debilitating NFL spinal chord injuries. I guess the biggest difference is that CTE in NFL players were likely the result of many incidents that began when they started playing football as little leaguers and high school players, while the spinal chord injuries were likely the result of a single incident.
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Re: Frontline: League of Denial

Postby bambam » Sat Oct 19, 2013 7:54 am

Well, if we're looking at deaths in sports, and closer to T&F, I just received this link in a tweet:

http://espn.go.com/espn/feature/story/_ ... le-surface
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Re: Frontline: League of Denial

Postby 26mi235 » Sat Oct 19, 2013 5:18 pm

Dixon wrote:
26mi235 wrote:
Dixon wrote:
No not really, a boy today wouldn't have a father that old.


I must be younger than I thought, and the father of my son's classmate, who is 5-6 years older than me probably just has a typo on his birth certificate that says he was born during the war.


Let's say a kid is 18, his dad was 25 when he had him. Do the math.


I am very good at doing the math. You said that a boy today would not have a father that age. Do you mean would not have a father that is 55, 65, 75? Your statement is confusing and your response does not make it clear.
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Re: Frontline: League of Denial

Postby lonewolf » Sat Oct 19, 2013 7:30 pm

Football is obviously the focus of brain injury but no sport is immune from concussion. Personal non-professional observation/ example.

Last winter, my 12 year old grandson was deliberately clobbered in the back of the head from behind while going in for a layup, struck the floor with his forehead and was unconscious for minutes.

He had the best immediate medical attention, MRIs etc. He was virtually immobilized, isolated and observed for days. Dim light, no reading, no TV, no school for about a month. Double vision. Constant recurring severe headache for weeks eventually subsided.

After about six weeks, he was cleared to resume physical activity. He lost a lot of conditioning and has not played basketball since but resumed soccer enthusiastically. Eventually there was no indication he had missed a lick. Except, that now, although he still heads the ball without hesitation, any hit to the back of his head causes instant debilitating headache that lasts for several minutes.
Brain scans do not show any evidence of brain injury and his school work has not suffered but still you wonder...
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Re: Frontline: League of Denial

Postby jazzcyclist » Sat Oct 19, 2013 7:59 pm

What you described happening to your grandson sounds like dirty play well outside the rules of the game. There are very few sports in which you aren't susceptible to a concussion if you're facing a dirty opponent, but the difference with sports like football and boxing, is that you can sustain a concussion when you're opponent is playing by the Marquis of Queensbury rules.
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Re: Frontline: League of Denial

Postby lonewolf » Sat Oct 19, 2013 8:07 pm

True.
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Re: Frontline: League of Denial

Postby gh » Sat Oct 19, 2013 8:35 pm

watched the first hour today (and teared up for the first half-hour w/ Webster details)... what a stunning bit of documentary research.

Thank god we still have PBS, particularly after ESPN's chicken-shit move on this whole thing.
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Re: Frontline: League of Denial

Postby Dixon » Sat Oct 19, 2013 11:42 pm

26mi235 wrote:
Dixon wrote:
26mi235 wrote:
Dixon wrote:
No not really, a boy today wouldn't have a father that old.


I must be younger than I thought, and the father of my son's classmate, who is 5-6 years older than me probably just has a typo on his birth certificate that says he was born during the war.


Let's say a kid is 18, his dad was 25 when he had him. Do the math.


I am very good at doing the math. You said that a boy today would not have a father that age. Do you mean would not have a father that is 55, 65, 75? Your statement is confusing and your response does not make it clear.


How many HS footballers have fathers in their 50's?
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Re: Frontline: League of Denial

Postby jazzcyclist » Sun Oct 20, 2013 5:27 am

bambam wrote:Well, if we're looking at deaths in sports, and closer to T&F, I just received this link in a tweet:

http://espn.go.com/espn/feature/story/_ ... le-surface

I watched a story on this on ESPN's "Outside The Lines" this morning. There were 13 triathlon deaths in the U.S. in 2012 alone, with twelve of them occurring in the swim portion. :shock:
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Re: Frontline: League of Denial

Postby Dutra5 » Sun Oct 20, 2013 7:59 am

Dixon wrote:
26mi235 wrote:
Dixon wrote:
26mi235 wrote:
I must be younger than I thought, and the father of my son's classmate, who is 5-6 years older than me probably just has a typo on his birth certificate that says he was born during the war.


Let's say a kid is 18, his dad was 25 when he had him. Do the math.


I am very good at doing the math. You said that a boy today would not have a father that age. Do you mean would not have a father that is 55, 65, 75? Your statement is confusing and your response does not make it clear.


How many HS footballers have fathers in their 50's?


I'm currently 56. My son is an 18 year old freshman wide receiver in college. I may feel like it but I haven't aged more than 6 years rather suddenly. His best friend in high school who was a QB/WR is also in his 50's as his son is of a 2nd marriage and he has another son who is under 10. I would say there were another 10-12 kids on the HS team last year who's father was older than 50. Most I'd say were from second marriages. In my case, we had our children later than most.
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Re: Frontline: League of Denial

Postby bambam » Sun Oct 20, 2013 8:33 am

gh wrote:... particularly after ESPN's chicken-shit move on this whole thing.


Boy, is that the truth.
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Re: Frontline: League of Denial

Postby bambam » Sun Oct 20, 2013 8:35 am

Dixon wrote:How many HS footballers have fathers in their 50's?


I don't think its that unusual. 18 yo high school player - if his father had the son when he was 32 that would be 50 yo. And it can be much higher. My Dad was 39 when I was born, so he was 56 when I graduated high school (I graduated at 17) - and there are older examples than that.
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Re: Frontline: League of Denial

Postby Daisy » Sun Oct 20, 2013 10:55 am

Dutra5 wrote: In my case, we had our children later than most.

I'll be 50 when my eldest starts high school. I look around at the other parents and I do not feel old.
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Re: Frontline: League of Denial

Postby gh » Sun Oct 20, 2013 4:43 pm

wow-wow-wow..... have now watched the whole thing, and if this doesn't win some major award(s), all is not well on the planet.

I knew Pete Rozelle's empire turned sour at some point, but the amount of spin-doctoring (not to mention doctors with horrendous conflicts of interest displaying a stunning lack of ethics) that is revealed here makes it hard for me to remain a fan.

And what's truly scary is the suggestions of how ugly sub-conconcussive hits might be.

What a brilliantly cogent speaker Harry Carson is; not just another thug on the line (well, I guess he was, but he's so much more than that).

This could be the most informative 2-hours I've ever spent in my life.
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Re: Frontline: League of Denial

Postby Dutra5 » Sun Oct 20, 2013 8:51 pm

gh wrote:
What a brilliantly cogent speaker Harry Carson is; not just another thug on the line (well, I guess he was, but he's so much more than that).



Growing up in NYC and a Giant fan during that period, Carson was an interesting dichotomy....if that's the right word....in that he was relatively soft spoken, introspective and played the position generally reserved for the meanest guy out there and played it at a HOF level.
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Re: Frontline: League of Denial

Postby jazzcyclist » Sun Oct 20, 2013 9:39 pm

gh wrote:What a brilliantly cogent speaker Harry Carson is; not just another thug on the line (well, I guess he was, but he's so much more than that).

I felt the same way about Carson. He was by far the must credible and thoughtful person in the whole Documentary IMO. When you have a Hall of Fame, Super Bowl Champion middle linebacker saying the things he's saying, you know the NFL has a problem. FYI, here's something I found from a 2001 Sports Illustrated article on Carson:

By his own count he suffered at least 15 concussions while playing pro football, from 1976 to '88, and he is afflicted by what Yaras-Davis, of the NFLPA, believes is one of the most common and troublesome maladies among former players: postconcussion syndrome, which is marked by headaches, forgetfulness, blurred vision and difficulty tracking mentally. . . . .

Carson had his share of other injuries, but none quite as stunning as the concussion he suffered in 1985 when he crashed head-on into his favorite opponent, Redskins fullback John Riggins. "It was pretty much my power against his power," Carson says. "I remember hitting John and going back to the huddle...everything faded to black. I was literally out on my feet."

Carson would find that such blows had long-term effects. In 1991, three years after he retired, he wrote in his journal, "I don't think as clearly as I used to. Nor is my speech, diction, selection of vocabulary as good as it used to be, and I don't know why." As a TV broadcaster with the MSG Network in New York City, he would occasionally misspeak. "I would mispronounce words and lose my train of thought," he says. "Things would happen, and I'd think I was going crazy. I'd go to the store to get something and forget what."

Like Yaras-Davis, Carson believes the syndrome is far more common than is generally thought. "One problem is that a lot of players who suffer from it have no clue what they're dealing with," says Carson, who still appears on a weekly show, Giants GamePlan, for MSG. "I've talked to players I've played with and against. Once I went public with this concussion thing, they were looking at me as being sort of brain-damaged, drooling and all this stuff. But it is an injury just like one to your knee or hip."

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/ ... /index.htm

Here's the link to the video and transcript of the extended PBS interview with Carson:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline ... ry-carson/

Dixon, I'm sure that you're familiar with Carson, a former HBCU legend. What do you think about the things he's saying?
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Re: Frontline: League of Denial

Postby bambam » Mon Oct 21, 2013 9:29 am

gh wrote:What a brilliantly cogent speaker Harry Carson is; not just another thug on the line (well, I guess he was, but he's so much more than that).


Agree completely - did not know much about him but came away with the same feeling.
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Re: Frontline: League of Denial

Postby bambam » Mon Oct 21, 2013 9:30 am

gh wrote:wow-wow-wow..... have now watched the whole thing, and if this doesn't win some major award(s), all is not well on the planet.


You should read the book, too. I read the book right after seeing the documentary. The documentary actually follows the book relatively closely but there is a lot more in there.
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Re: Frontline: League of Denial

Postby bambam » Mon Oct 21, 2013 9:37 am

gh wrote:I knew Pete Rozelle's empire turned sour at some point, but the amount of spin-doctoring (not to mention doctors with horrendous conflicts of interest displaying a stunning lack of ethics) that is revealed here makes it hard for me to remain a fan.


The whole issue of a team doctor and team sports injuries is a very complex ethical study, which has been examined in several journal articles (notably Amer J Sports Medicine). And I say this while noting I am friends with at least 20-30 team doctors for the 4 major American sports, and numerous others covering D1 college teams, most of whom realize the conflicts at hand.

On the one hand, the team doctor must take care of the patient primarily. On the other hand, he is actually employed (somewhat) by the team, which brings up the conflict of interest. This is also true of worker's compensation injuries in general. The doctor takes care of the patient, but actually answers to the worker's compensation insurance carrier. I actually can not do anything with a worker's comp patient, unless it is approved first by the insurance carrier - in this case, the patient and I do not make the decision.

The other dirty little secret is that all NFL and USA team sports injuries qualify as worker's compensation injuries, which further complicates matters. What is not known is that these multi-millionaires do not pay their doctors exorbitant fees for their services, but the doctors are actually reimbursed at worker's comp rates, which can be very low (e.g., Pennsylvania), or very high (e.g., Illinois).
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Re: Frontline: League of Denial

Postby bushop » Mon Oct 21, 2013 7:03 pm

Pego wrote:My 2¢ worth. To markedly reduce head injuries, football (at all levels) needs to do two things.

1. Outlaw all hits to head (I don't care about cries of "softening" the game - it is quite violent by its very nature).

2. Redesign the helmet to offer more protection without being a weapon.

... add - No cheated shoes.
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Re: Frontline: League of Denial

Postby Dixon » Wed Oct 23, 2013 1:10 pm

jazz

It doesn't mater what Carson said, it's all about do you want to play football or not. Injuries/a condition won't stand in the way if somebody really wants to play. Just ask a boxer about brain damage and why he's still fighting.
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Re: Frontline: League of Denial

Postby jazzcyclist » Thu Oct 24, 2013 7:52 pm

Dixon wrote:jazz

It doesn't mater what Carson said, it's all about do you want to play football or not. Injuries/a condition won't stand in the way if somebody really wants to play. Just ask a boxer about brain damage and why he's still fighting.


As was mentioned earlier, folks always knew that boxers were doing long-term damage to their brains, but up until recently, folks didn't know that football players were also doing this, and that changes everything. Do you think the NFL owners just agreed to give over 3 quarters of a billion dollars to former players out of the goodness of their hearts? Do you think that Roger Goodell is wussifying the game with never-ending rule changes because he always hated seeing guys like Ronnie Lott, Jack Tatum and Dick Butkus blow people up?

Anyway, today, another retired player weighed in with his concerns about the effect that all his concussions are beginning to have on him.

Brett Favre dismissed the possibility of returning to the NFL with St. Louis, and Rams coach Jeff Fisher declined to address reports he tried to lure the quarterback out of retirement to replace the injured Sam Bradford.

Favre told Washington sports station WSPZ-AM he doesn't feel physically able to compete and expressed fear that he has been affected by concussions.

"It's flattering, but you know there's no way I'm going to do that," Favre said.

Fisher changed the subject after practice, then said "Nice try" when asked whether the 44-year-old Favre could be ready to play. Bradford is out for the season with a knee injury.

"I don't remember my daughter playing soccer, playing youth soccer, one summer," Favre told WSPZ. "I don't remember that. I got a pretty good memory, and I have a tendency like we all do to say, 'Where are my glasses?' and they're on your head. This was pretty shocking to me that I couldn't remember my daughter playing youth soccer, just one summer, I think. I remember her playing basketball, I remember her playing volleyball, so I kind of think maybe she only played a game or two. I think she played eight. So that's a little bit scary to me. For the first time in 44 years, that put a little fear in me. ...

"I think after 20 years, God only knows the toll."

http://abclocal.go.com/ktrk/story?secti ... id=9300265
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Re: Frontline: League of Denial

Postby Dixon » Sat Oct 26, 2013 1:30 am

jazzcyclist wrote:
Dixon wrote:jazz

It doesn't mater what Carson said, it's all about do you want to play football or not. Injuries/a condition won't stand in the way if somebody really wants to play. Just ask a boxer about brain damage and why he's still fighting.


As was mentioned earlier, folks always knew that boxers were doing long-term damage to their brains, but up until recently, folks didn't know that football players were also doing this, and that changes everything. Do you think the NFL owners just agreed to give over 3 quarters of a billion dollars to former players out of the goodness of their hearts? Do you think that Roger Goodell is wussifying the game with never-ending rule changes because he always hated seeing guys like Ronnie Lott, Jack Tatum and Dick Butkus blow people up?

Anyway, today, another retired player weighed in with his concerns about the effect that all his concussions are beginning to have on him.

Brett Favre dismissed the possibility of returning to the NFL with St. Louis, and Rams coach Jeff Fisher declined to address reports he tried to lure the quarterback out of retirement to replace the injured Sam Bradford.

Favre told Washington sports station WSPZ-AM he doesn't feel physically able to compete and expressed fear that he has been affected by concussions.

"It's flattering, but you know there's no way I'm going to do that," Favre said.

Fisher changed the subject after practice, then said "Nice try" when asked whether the 44-year-old Favre could be ready to play. Bradford is out for the season with a knee injury.

"I don't remember my daughter playing soccer, playing youth soccer, one summer," Favre told WSPZ. "I don't remember that. I got a pretty good memory, and I have a tendency like we all do to say, 'Where are my glasses?' and they're on your head. This was pretty shocking to me that I couldn't remember my daughter playing youth soccer, just one summer, I think. I remember her playing basketball, I remember her playing volleyball, so I kind of think maybe she only played a game or two. I think she played eight. So that's a little bit scary to me. For the first time in 44 years, that put a little fear in me. ...

"I think after 20 years, God only knows the toll."

http://abclocal.go.com/ktrk/story?secti ... id=9300265


What exactly are you trying to say? I have friends who smoke, I'm always..."you can't be that stupid"....they keep smoking.

Just today while flicking stations I came to a rodeo, there's a bull rider with a hemet on but the rest just cowboy hats. You think these guys don't know the danger?

People are not going...'"I could get hurt, better not do that"....come on man.

Sure players will start trying to watch the hemet hits and tackling instead of knocking people down will start being stressed.
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Re: Frontline: League of Denial

Postby Dutra5 » Sat Oct 26, 2013 7:14 am

Despite the denial of some...parents....and in particular mom...will control to a certain degree whether kids play football. It simply won't be up to the kids.

They'll always be a population enough who will play but it will be a reduced population.
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Re: Frontline: League of Denial

Postby 26mi235 » Sat Oct 26, 2013 10:59 am

Dixon wrote:How many HS footballers have fathers in their 50's?


A lot. The world has changed since you were young. At a guess, I would venture that a sizable number (like close to 40% maybe even half) of families have 50-year old parents with a kid in high school. I was born in the baby boom, and my parents fit that bill -- and I have a sibling seven grades younger. Not surprising with a non-trivial number of parents in the 70s while a kid is in high school.
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Re: Frontline: League of Denial

Postby TN1965 » Sat Oct 26, 2013 2:53 pm

Dixon wrote:What exactly are you trying to say? I have friends who smoke, I'm always..."you can't be that stupid"....they keep smoking.


Should we then limit football to adults? Kids should be limited to flag football until they are 18, when they can make up their own mind. How about that?
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