Frontline: League of Denial


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Re: Frontline: League of Denial

Postby bambam » Thu Oct 17, 2013 8:28 am

http://ideas.time.com/2013/10/10/were-s ... z2hyclyrpE

Some interesting thoughts on this topic from Bob Cantu, a neurosurgeon who is one of the leader's in concussion studies.
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Re: Frontline: League of Denial

Postby Pego » Thu Oct 17, 2013 11:52 am

bambam wrote:http://ideas.time.com/2013/10/10/were-still-in-the-dark-about-kids-and-concussions/#ixzz2hyclyrpE

Some interesting thoughts on this topic from Bob Cantu, a neurosurgeon who is one of the leader's in concussion studies.


I read the article. Following my grandson's football playing of the past 6-7 years (flag first, tackle the last 3), this is my observation.

Vast majority of the injuries have been to the limbs, knees particularly. Head/neck injuries were mostly caused by face mask fouls. Personally, I see very little use for the face mask, btw.
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Re: Frontline: League of Denial

Postby Dixon » Fri Oct 18, 2013 2:31 am

Pego wrote:
bambam wrote:http://ideas.time.com/2013/10/10/were-still-in-the-dark-about-kids-and-concussions/#ixzz2hyclyrpE

Some interesting thoughts on this topic from Bob Cantu, a neurosurgeon who is one of the leader's in concussion studies.


I read the article. Following my grandson's football playing of the past 6-7 years (flag first, tackle the last 3), this is my observation.

Vast majority of the injuries have been to the limbs, knees particularly. Head/neck injuries were mostly caused by face mask fouls. Personally, I see very little use for the face mask, btw.


No way you can play football without a face mask. You'd have guys hurt constantly. Broken noses all over the place. Imagine a straight arm right in your face.
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Re: Frontline: League of Denial

Postby Dixon » Fri Oct 18, 2013 2:34 am

26mi235 wrote:
Dixon wrote:
No not really, a boy today wouldn't have a father that old.


I must be younger than I thought, and the father of my son's classmate, who is 5-6 years older than me probably just has a typo on his birth certificate that says he was born during the war.


Let's say a kid is 18, his dad was 25 when he had him. Do the math.
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Re: Frontline: League of Denial

Postby Pego » Fri Oct 18, 2013 3:02 am

Dixon wrote:
Pego wrote:
bambam wrote:http://ideas.time.com/2013/10/10/were-still-in-the-dark-about-kids-and-concussions/#ixzz2hyclyrpE

Some interesting thoughts on this topic from Bob Cantu, a neurosurgeon who is one of the leader's in concussion studies.


I read the article. Following my grandson's football playing of the past 6-7 years (flag first, tackle the last 3), this is my observation.

Vast majority of the injuries have been to the limbs, knees particularly. Head/neck injuries were mostly caused by face mask fouls. Personally, I see very little use for the face mask, btw.


No way you can play football without a face mask. You'd have guys hurt constantly. Broken noses all over the place. Imagine a straight arm right in your face.


I can see that. What about a hockey style face mask that you cannot grab?
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Re: Frontline: League of Denial

Postby Dixon » Fri Oct 18, 2013 3:09 am

Pego wrote:
Dixon wrote:
Pego wrote:
bambam wrote:http://ideas.time.com/2013/10/10/were-still-in-the-dark-about-kids-and-concussions/#ixzz2hyclyrpE

Some interesting thoughts on this topic from Bob Cantu, a neurosurgeon who is one of the leader's in concussion studies.


I read the article. Following my grandson's football playing of the past 6-7 years (flag first, tackle the last 3), this is my observation.

Vast majority of the injuries have been to the limbs, knees particularly. Head/neck injuries were mostly caused by face mask fouls. Personally, I see very little use for the face mask, btw.


No way you can play football without a face mask. You'd have guys hurt constantly. Broken noses all over the place. Imagine a straight arm right in your face.


I can see that. What about a hockey style face mask that you cannot grab?


Football is a very very vicious and violent game played by big mean bad men. That's the game. People are going to get hurt. If ya don't wanna hurt, don't play.

I hate to come off cold and uncaring but that's the bottom line.

Sure they could do something with the face mask, hockey style....cool.
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Re: Frontline: League of Denial

Postby jazzcyclist » Fri Oct 18, 2013 6:14 am

Dixon wrote:No way you can play football without a face mask. You'd have guys hurt constantly. Broken noses all over the place. Imagine a straight arm right in your face.

Actually, just last week, Lee Corso was advocating removing face masks since he believes that players would calibrate their blocking and tackling without them. He pointed out that he played in the pre-face mask era, and though he did have a few broken noses and seperated shoulders, he went through his entire career without a concussion. There's a reason why rugby players aren't always trying to blow players up like football players do. Can anyone here weigh in on the frequency of concussions in rugby?

And i don't know where you get this "straight arm right in your face" idea from, since clothes-lining was outlawed a long time ago, even before I played high school football, and if a player tried to do that today, he would no doubt be looking at a multiple-game suspension.
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Re: Frontline: League of Denial

Postby jazzcyclist » Fri Oct 18, 2013 6:28 am

Dixon wrote:Let's say a kid is 18, his dad was 25 when he had him. Do the math.

Come on man. You can't see the forest for the trees. It's irrelevant whether or not 26mi was born before or after seatbelts became mandatory and cigarette manufacturers started putting warning labels on their products, the main point is that times have changed since the days when he grew up, and the age in which is son is growing up, so its useless to talk about how things were "back in the day". The bottom line is that no one knew about CTE when you and I played football, but they do know, and open-minded people are always willing to change their minds as new facts and information become available.
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Re: Frontline: League of Denial

Postby Dixon » Fri Oct 18, 2013 9:24 am

jazzcyclist wrote:
Dixon wrote:No way you can play football without a face mask. You'd have guys hurt constantly. Broken noses all over the place. Imagine a straight arm right in your face.

Actually, just last week, Lee Corso was advocating removing face masks since he believes that players would calibrate their blocking and tackling without them. He pointed out that he played in the pre-face mask era, and though he did have a few broken noses and seperated shoulders, he went through his entire career without a concussion. There's a reason why rugby players aren't always trying to blow players up like football players do. Can anyone here weigh in on the frequency of concussions in rugby?

And i don't know where you get this "straight arm right in your face" idea from, since clothes-lining was outlawed a long time ago, even before I played high school football, and if a player tried to do that today, he would no doubt be looking at a multiple-game suspension.


We see straight arms to face masks in every football game played at every level. A quick shove is what I'm talking about.

I got more banged up as a defensive back than I did at running back. More dangerous trying to tackle than being tackled as you know. Imagine a knee to the face or an elbow. I actually broke a face mask once, what if I hadn't had it on?

I'd love to see them try to play the game without one, what a high school kids with broken noses?
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Re: Frontline: League of Denial

Postby Dixon » Fri Oct 18, 2013 9:33 am

jazzcyclist wrote:
Dixon wrote:Let's say a kid is 18, his dad was 25 when he had him. Do the math.

Come on man. You can't see the forest for the trees. It's irrelevant whether or not 26mi was born before or after seatbelts became mandatory and cigarette manufacturers started putting warning labels on their products, the main point is that times have changed since the days when he grew up, and the age in which is son is growing up, so its useless to talk about how things were "back in the day". The bottom line is that no one knew about CTE when you and I played football, but they do know, and open-minded people are always willing to change their minds as new facts and information become available.


Who ever played the game of football worrying about injury? Hell, we'd play on concrete as kids. What mom didn't.....you're going to get hurt playing in the street? Who cared?

Who isn't aware of the dangers of football? Who doesn't know about Daryl Stingley or any of those strapped to a wheel chair because of football? Everyone knows it's a dangerous game, so you either stay away from it or say the hell with it. As we can see a lot of athletes say the hell with it.

You can play football without using the helmet as a weapon. That does need to be taken as seriously as it is being taken. You don't need to hit people with it. Like smoking it has to become..."you hit with your helmet, what an idiot!"...or uncool. Once it starts making the players look stupid instead of bad it will stop.

Have a coach get right in a players face in front of the world berating him in front of everyone for a stupid helmet hit. It won't take many of those to change things.

Why would anyone wanna be a marine/cop/fighter/rodeo cowboy.......ya could get hurt.
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Re: Frontline: League of Denial

Postby jazzcyclist » Fri Oct 18, 2013 10:31 am

Dixon, do you know what CTE is? If so, when did you find out about it?
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Re: Frontline: League of Denial

Postby Dixon » Fri Oct 18, 2013 10:53 am

jazzcyclist wrote:Dixon, do you know what CTE is? If so, when did you find out about it?


Who doesn't know what it is and I found out about it just recently.

But you really aren't getting it. I played in those HS alumni games in my 30's, totally out of football shape, I could have been seriously hurt out there, we all could of, hell there were guys out there pushing 50. Nobody cared, we loved the sport. If we get broke in two...bummer...the chance you take.

Tell me jazz why would anyone wanna be a marine? They know the dangers so tell me why doesn't it matter?

People don't go around in life trying to protect themselves against everything, ya step up to the plate swing for the fences then hope for the best.

My football/military (navy) memories are priceless. No way in hell I wouldn't do it all again. Who wants to live a life all safe and unmemorable?

Yes something needs to be done about helmet shots, that I agree with but ya don't play football worrying about getting hurt, or some condition.

I was 19 years old sitting on a bar stool in Olongopo Phillipines on my left a Singapore Sling on my right a cute little bar girl with a tattoo of a little blue butterfly over her right breast (or was it left) we ended up at her place. Hell i could have been set up, a trap......oh well.
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Re: Frontline: League of Denial

Postby jazzcyclist » Fri Oct 18, 2013 11:16 am

Dixon wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote:Dixon, do you know what CTE is? If so, when did you find out about it?


Who doesn't know what it is and I found out about it just recentlyl.

And yet this new information doesn't seem to have changed your thinking at all. That really surprises me. Like you, I only found out about CTE recently, and before then I thought the biggest risk that football player took was a broken limb, a blown-out knee, cracked ribs and in rare instances, paralysis. Yes, Darryl Stingley was always in the back of my mind when I played football, but I knew that risk was less than 1 in a 1000. However, CTE seems to occur at a much higher rate, and not only has it changed the way I view the sport, it's changing the way current football players view the sport, which is why quite a few of them are saying that they won't let their sons play football.

If someone had told me that there was a 10% chance that I would break a limb playing football, I probably would have still played. I might have even played if there was a 100% chance that it would happen. However, if someone had told me that there was a 10% chance that I would end up with CTE or a parapalegic, I would have probably quit.
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Re: Frontline: League of Denial

Postby Dixon » Fri Oct 18, 2013 11:24 am

jazzcyclist wrote:
Dixon wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote:Dixon, do you know what CTE is? If so, when did you find out about it?


Who doesn't know what it is and I found out about it just recentlyl.

And yet this new information doesn't seem to have changed your thinking at all. That really surprises me. Like you, I only found out about CTE recently, and before then I thought the biggest risk that football player took was a broken limb, a blown-out knee, cracked ribs and in rare instances, paralysis. Yes, Darryl Stingley was always in the back of my mind when I played football, but I knew that risk was less than 1 in a 1000. However, CTE seems to occur at a much higher rate, and not only has it changed the way I view the sport, it's changing the way current football players view the sport, which is why quite a few of them are saying that they won't let their sons play football.


How many people in this country smoke/drink/drugs? How long have we known the dangers? Who goes out to a bar has too many then drives home? They know the dangers.

Why do you ignore my comments on the marines.boxing.rodeo.MMA.NACAR.....why don't people care about the dangers?

I know tons of x footballers like myself as far as I know known of them are suffering any ill effects from their old football days. I also know their memories are priceless.

Nothing would have stopped me from playing football.
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Re: Frontline: League of Denial

Postby gh » Fri Oct 18, 2013 11:53 am

That's why it's called League Of Denial.
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Re: Frontline: League of Denial

Postby Dixon » Fri Oct 18, 2013 11:59 am

gh wrote:That's why it's called League Of Denial.


Do you really think a kid coming out of college staring at huge $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ is real concerned over something that might happen? Everyone knows how dangerous the sport is already.

The NFL could type....

Playing NFL football could result in serious physical and mental conditions, even after retirement.

And it would make little impact.

What boxer doesn't know of the deaths in the ring?

paste

There's no sport more brutal or unforgiving than professional boxing. With approximately two thousand deaths directly attributed to in-ring battle since the adopting of the Marquis of Queensberry rules, boxing has established itself as the most dangerous sport in the world.

Here's a list of the 10 most recognizable fighters who literally gave the sport their all. Forgive any omissions and, please, feel free to honor other fallen heroes in the comment section of this article:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Yet there is no shortage of boxers and never will be.
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Re: Frontline: League of Denial

Postby jazzcyclist » Fri Oct 18, 2013 12:17 pm

Dixon wrote:How many people in this country smoke/drink/drugs? How long have we known the dangers? Who goes out to a bar has too many then drives home? They know the dangers.

Do you think people drink and drive as much as they used to? Are you aware of the fact that cigarette smoking has been in steady decline for the last 50 years, since the health risks became known?

Dixon wrote:Why do you ignore my comments on the marines.boxing.rodeo.MMA.NACAR.....why don't people care about the dangers?

Because they have nothing to do with the recent revelations of CTE.

Dixon wrote:I know tons of x footballers like myself as far as I know known of them are suffering any ill effects from their old football days. I also know their memories are priceless.

So what's your point? That CTE is a made-up controversy?
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Re: Frontline: League of Denial

Postby jazzcyclist » Fri Oct 18, 2013 12:24 pm

Dixon wrote:Do you really think a kid coming out of college staring at huge $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ is real concerned over something that might happen? Everyone knows how dangerous the sport is already.

The NFL could type....

Playing NFL football could result in serious physical and mental conditions, even after retirement.

And it would make little impact.

What boxer doesn't know of the deaths in the ring?

Yet there is no shortage of boxers and never will be.

That's interesting that you would bring up boxing. I remember when boxing was a major sport world-wide and heavy-weight championship matches were must-see events. Today, I couldn't even tell you who the heavy-weight champion is. The biggest fear that Roger Goodell has is that football will one day go the way of boxing, and if the CTE risks turn out to be high enough that significant numbers of parents stop their kids from playing football, it will go the way of boxing. Mothers might be willing to risk broken limbs in the name of letting "boys be boys", but CTE is a whole other thing.
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Re: Frontline: League of Denial

Postby bambam » Fri Oct 18, 2013 2:03 pm

jazzcyclist wrote:However, if someone had told me that there was a 10% chance that I would end up with CTE or a parapalegic, I would have probably quit.


The risk isn't that high for paraplegia, and we look at it in that vein, but most people have not taken care of paraplegics (or quadriplegics), or have to deal with them much, and everyone else probably thinks - gee, that's a tough break, or tough life. But for those of us who do take care of them, and have taken of them (including in my case as a resident, Kathy Ormsby), its hard to imagine allowing sports that have any significant amounts of paraplegic as a risk, not to mention death and CTE (I think trampolines should be banned, as an example). Same with tobacco and cancer, but that still survives because of political implications.

There are other sports you can play that are good for kids and not nearly as dangerous. I have no children, but I would not want them playing football. I know football is fun - so are lots of sports. I know it supposedly builds character, but the newer bromide is that sports don't build character, they reveal it.

I think your military analogy is a specious one. That is a far higher calling than simply playing a sport. We applaud your service to the nation in the military, but Marines don't do it for the fun, or accept the risk for the fun. They have far more noble reasons to do what they do.
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Re: Frontline: League of Denial

Postby Pego » Fri Oct 18, 2013 3:20 pm

bambam wrote:I would not want them playing football


This is easier said than done. We did not want our son to play football, but he wanted to, so we relented. The same with his son. We all prompted him toward soccer, but he loves to play football. What do you do? You go to his games and cheer your grandson and his team 8-) .
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Re: Frontline: League of Denial

Postby Blues » Fri Oct 18, 2013 3:43 pm

Pego wrote:My 2¢ worth. To markedly reduce head injuries, football (at all levels) needs to do two things.

2. Redesign the helmet to offer more protection without being a weapon.


I think redesigning the helmet makes a lot of sense... I wonder if it would be possible and effective to pad the outside of the helmet with some type of durable cushioning material too, thereby providing softer shock absorbing material on both the inside and outside... Same for shoulder pads...

Edit: I wasn't aware that Guardian (and maybe others) already make padded helmet caps (links below). At this time players usually just where them in practice where most concussions occur. Users have said that they definitely make a big difference in the impact and sting that they feel when hit... No telling how that will affect concussion or CTE risk though, but it seems like a good idea..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OsNH5slUEgE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NngYdtWD ... tVnpjiqV6k
Last edited by Blues on Fri Oct 18, 2013 4:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Frontline: League of Denial

Postby jazzcyclist » Fri Oct 18, 2013 3:44 pm

Pego wrote:
bambam wrote:I would not want them playing football


This is easier said than done. We did not want our son to play football, but he wanted to, so we relented. The same with his son. We all prompted him toward soccer, but he loves to play football. What do you do? You go to his games and cheer your grandson and his team 8-) .

I'm guessing that these NFL guys, like Kurt Warner, who are saying that they won't let their sons play football, will back down if their sons force the issue when the time comes. By the way, how have the recent CTE revelations affected your son's attitude?
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Re: Frontline: League of Denial

Postby Pego » Fri Oct 18, 2013 4:05 pm

jazzcyclist wrote:
Pego wrote:
bambam wrote:I would not want them playing football


This is easier said than done. We did not want our son to play football, but he wanted to, so we relented. The same with his son. We all prompted him toward soccer, but he loves to play football. What do you do? You go to his games and cheer your grandson and his team 8-) .

I'm guessing that these NFL guys, like Kurt Warner, who are saying that they won't let their sons play football, will back down if their sons force the issue when the time comes. By the way, how have the recent CTE revelations affected your son's attitude?


A proverbial "out of sight, out of mind" attitude. With the kid's mother and grandfather being neurologists (a gastroenterologist father), you can understand why the subject is not debated. The kid loves the game, he is good at it and the only injuries he has had have been bruises and mild sprains. We shall see.
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Re: Frontline: League of Denial

Postby bambam » Fri Oct 18, 2013 4:23 pm

Pego wrote:
bambam wrote:I would not want them playing football


This is easier said than done. We did not want our son to play football, but he wanted to, so we relented. The same with his son. We all prompted him toward soccer, but he loves to play football. What do you do? You go to his games and cheer your grandson and his team 8-) .


I agree - when I first wrote I wrote "I would not let them ..." but amended it to the above. I would not be that dogmatic. But they would never go on trampolines. I have taken care of 4 different kids rendered quadriplegic from those things.
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Re: Frontline: League of Denial

Postby jazzcyclist » Fri Oct 18, 2013 5:41 pm

Pego wrote:A proverbial "out of sight, out of mind" attitude.

Just to be sure that I correctly understand you, are you saying that your son is as gung-ho about your grandson playing football as he was about playing himself? Does he fall in the Dixon camp regarding his attitude about CTE?
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Re: Frontline: League of Denial

Postby Pego » Fri Oct 18, 2013 5:45 pm

jazzcyclist wrote:
Pego wrote:A proverbial "out of sight, out of mind" attitude.

Just to be sure that I correctly understand you, are you saying that your son is as gung-ho about your grandson playing football as he was about playing himself? Does he fall in the Dixon camp regarding his attitude about CTE?


No, far from it. CTE represents result of repetitive head trauma. So far, nothing close to even the first one has happened.
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Re: Frontline: League of Denial

Postby jazzcyclist » Fri Oct 18, 2013 6:19 pm

So I take it that your grandson is a concussion or two from having your son pull the plug on his football career? I can sympathize with your son's position since your grandson presumably started playing football before all this CTE stuff became widely known, and it would have been hard for him to justify denying something to his son that you allowed him to have.
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Re: Frontline: League of Denial

Postby Pego » Sat Oct 19, 2013 4:28 am

jazzcyclist wrote:So I take it that your grandson is a concussion or two from having your son pull the plug on his football career? I can sympathize with your son's position since your grandson presumably started playing football before all this CTE stuff became widely known, and it would have been hard for him to justify denying something to his son that you allowed him to have.


I am not sure what you are trying to point out, so just a couple of qualifiers.

First of all, what has come out in public recently has been known to neurologists for decades (I did mention that my daughter-in-law is a neurologist, perfectly familiar with the concept of head injuries long before her son decided to play football). We used to refer to it as a "battered brain syndrome" before a pathological entity of Chronic traumatic encephalopathy was introduced in the literature. We have seen discoloration of parts of the brain (mostly the tips of different lobi) from repetitive trauma on autopsy materials. That was mostly in boxers and alcoholics (falls, fights).

CTE is still relatively rare, even among professional football players, just as paralyzing spinal cord injuries are. I am not saying that head injuries (generally referred to as "concussions", even though it is actual cerebral contusions/lacerations that lead to CTE) are rare, no they are common, but most of them are self-limited and do not lead to major long-term problems.

There is one thing where I sympathize with Dixon's position. All (well, most) sports have risk of injury, even devastating ones. As a competitive cyclist, you know what your sport's risks are. Pole vaulters, gymnasts, as bambam keeps emphasizing, the trampoliners, skiers, water skiers, all individual, elegant, non-contact sports risk a loss of life and limb. Hell, even cheerleaders occasionally break their neck by falling from the pyramid.

Yes, both my daughter-in-law and I have been fretting when the kid started playing football, especially when they started tackling (he is in his third year of tackle football as an 8-grader). That fear usually dissipates when he runs 80 yards from the scrimmage for a TD. You just cheer then. He is determined to play high school football. What happens after that remains to be seen.
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Re: Frontline: League of Denial

Postby bambam » Sat Oct 19, 2013 5:19 am

Pego wrote:Hell, even cheerleaders occasionally break their neck by falling from the pyramid.


About 20 years ago at a Duke basketball game, one of the opposing team's cheerleaders fell from the top of a pyramid, and sustained a cervical-spine fracture. Not quite sure of the details but I think she became quadriplegic as a result. Pyramids by cheerleaders since banned at Duke basketball games.

So Pego is right that it can happen in tons of sports. In the one we all love, T&F, the pole vault can be very dangerous on occasion. So I know there's not a great answer, but if I had a son, I really would want him to play some other sport than football.
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Re: Frontline: League of Denial

Postby Pego » Sat Oct 19, 2013 5:31 am

bambam wrote:
Pego wrote:Hell, even cheerleaders occasionally break their neck by falling from the pyramid.


About 20 years ago at a Duke basketball game, one of the opposing team's cheerleaders fell from the top of a pyramid, and sustained a cervical-spine fracture. Not quite sure of the details but I think she became quadriplegic as a result. Pyramids by cheerleaders since banned at Duke basketball games.

So Pego is right that it can happen in tons of sports. In the one we all love, T&F, the pole vault can be very dangerous on occasion. So I know there's not a great answer, but if I had a son, I really would want him to play some other sport than football.


Yes, I have no argument here.
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Re: Frontline: League of Denial

Postby jazzcyclist » Sat Oct 19, 2013 5:43 am

Thanks for the background information Pego. For some reason, I got the impression that your grandson was a older, like a college freshman or a high school senior. Now I see where you're coming from. As we both know, the kinetic energy involved in a 12th grade collision is significantly greater than that involved in an 8th grade collision

The impression I got from the PBS documentary is that CTE was a relatively new finding in the medical community, but you're saying that neurologists were familiar concept long before the name CTE was given to it. Perhaps in the overall scheme of things, football-related CTE is rare, but anecdotally, it seems much more common than paralysis. Since I started following pro football over 40 years ago, I can only recall two players (Darryl Stingley and Mike Utley) being paralyzed, but there have been dozens who have suffered permanent brain injuries that I'm aware of, not to mention the ones who haven't made it to the news. Additionally, I know a couple of current NFL players personally (a first cousin and his college roommate), and it's something they worry about. One of them has admitted concealing a concussion from his team in a contract year, and the other has already noticed problems with memory, but both seem addicted to the money and lifestyle and I worry about what will become of them when they're no longer in the game.

I guess people rationalize taking risks by the perceived likelihood of them being one of the unlucky ones. Folks who skydive know that there's always a possibility that their chute won't open, but they rationalize doing it by saying to themselves that there's only a 1 in 100,000 chance (made up number) that this will happen. I would imagine that it's the same way with other adventure sports such as bungee jumping, mountain climbing and white-water rafting.
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Re: Frontline: League of Denial

Postby bambam » Sat Oct 19, 2013 5:50 am

Jazzy, your #s are very low for paralysis, and even death in football. Actually there is a center that tracks this and it is as UNC (North Carolina). I don't recall the name of it, unfortunately, but I'm sure there is a website. Every year there are several deaths, and several cases of paralysis from football injuries. The deaths include heat-related things, cardiac arrhythmias, etc.

CTE was well-described, as Pego noted, at least 50 years ago, but at the time only in boxers. Showed up in other areas later, and football only described in the last few years.

In what we do for exercise, cycling, I worry about injuries too. When riding up in New Hampshire, I like to climb mountains. That's hard but what worries me is descending and I no longer have the balls to descend flat-out. I tap the brakes much more than I used to. All you need to do is hit a pebble at 50 mph coming down and you could be toast. And there's always the chance to be hit by a car - stuff happens as Pego noted.

But I still won't want my kid playing football.
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Re: Frontline: League of Denial

Postby bambam » Sat Oct 19, 2013 5:52 am

http://www.unc.edu/depts/nccsi/

National Center for Catastrophic Sport Injury Research
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Re: Frontline: League of Denial

Postby gh » Sat Oct 19, 2013 5:54 am

gh wrote:depending on how you read between the lines in the Arizona case, they may not have had much choice

<<at the advice of their doctors, their football career is over.”>>

Doesn't the NCAA (probably because of liability concerns) have pretty strict no-more-play rules regards concussions? I seem to recall a rash lately of local women basketball/soccer/volleyball types who have been forced to step away from the game.


Coincidentally SF Chron had a followup on this today.

http://www.sfgate.com/collegesports/art ... 908350.php
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Re: Frontline: League of Denial

Postby bambam » Sat Oct 19, 2013 5:56 am

I never looked at that site before - pretty interesting stuff. Go look at some of the tables about the incidence of fatalities related to head and neck trauma. One thing to note is that they are much less common than they used to be. At one time there were 20-30 per year in high school football nationwide.
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Re: Frontline: League of Denial

Postby jazzcyclist » Sat Oct 19, 2013 6:13 am

bambam wrote:So Pego is right that it can happen in tons of sports. In the one we all love, T&F, the pole vault can be very dangerous on occasion. So I know there's not a great answer, but if I had a son, I really would want him to play some other sport than football.

I have a hunch that a person's profession can cause them to be more sensitive to certain risks than the general populace, thus you're more sensitive to paralysis risks than most folks and it's the same with Pego and brain injury risks. My brother, who is a pediatrician, can seem anal at times when discussing the children of other family members with them. With me, it's safety when during chores around the house, especially if any sort of chemicals are involved, and my friends and family probably think I'm paranoid, and at times they've no doubt been annoyed when I interrupted what they were doing and forced them to do it safely.
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Re: Frontline: League of Denial

Postby jazzcyclist » Sat Oct 19, 2013 6:35 am

bambam wrote:Jazzy, your #s are very low for paralysis, and even death in football.

I apologize if I gave the impression that I was stating definitive facts and figures or citing actual numbers from studies. I was admittedly pulling 1:1000 and 1:100,000 out of my ass just for the sake of the argument. The only thing that I said is that I only recall two NFL cases of paralysis since I've been following football, but that doesn't necessarily mean that there weren't more cases besides Stingley and Utley that I've forgotten or never heard about.

bambam wrote:In what we do for exercise, cycling, I worry about injuries too. When riding up in New Hampshire, I like to climb mountains. That's hard but what worries me is descending and I no longer have the balls to descend flat-out. I tap the brakes much more than I used to. All you need to do is hit a pebble at 50 mph coming down and you could be toast. And there's always the chance to be hit by a car - stuff happens as Pego noted.

Having played football and biked competitively, road cycling seems more dangerous to me, especially when you consider all the miles you spend on the roads training by yourself when the cops don't have traffic blocked off. I casually knew a couple of local cyclists that were killed in a weekly training race that I frequently did, and I was very good friends with two other cyclists who were injured in the same incident when a truck crossed the center line. When I biked in the Alps while in Europe, I enjoyed the challenge of going up the steep climbs at 6-8 m.p.h., but I had absolutely appetite for descending any faster than 35 m.p.h. And though I've done a few criteriums and never crashed, I've decided to quit while I'm ahead, and I seriously doubt that I'll ever do another one. IMO, anyone who has ever won a Grand Tour had a willingness to descend at speeds most folks would think is suicidal.
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Re: Frontline: League of Denial

Postby Pego » Sat Oct 19, 2013 6:44 am

jazzcyclist wrote:besides Stingley and Utley


Another heavily publicized case was Nick Buaniconti's son.
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Re: Frontline: League of Denial

Postby bambam » Sat Oct 19, 2013 6:54 am

jazzcyclist wrote:IMO, anyone who has ever won a Grand Tour had a willingness to descend at speeds most folks would think is suicidal.


The greatest descender ever in the peleton was considered to be Gaston Nencini (from the late 50s and 60s). It was said of him that you would only follow him on a descent if you had a death wish.
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Re: Frontline: League of Denial

Postby jazzcyclist » Sat Oct 19, 2013 6:59 am

Pego wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote:besides Stingley and Utley


Another heavily publicized case was Nick Buaniconti's son.

I was talking strictly about NFL players. I'm well aware of several other college and high school players, including Buoniconti's son, who were paralyzed on the football field. Over the last 40 years, the number of debilitating NFL CTE injuries seems to be much greater than the number of debilitating NFL spinal chord injuries. I guess the biggest difference is that CTE in NFL players were likely the result of many incidents that began when they started playing football as little leaguers and high school players, while the spinal chord injuries were likely the result of a single incident.
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