Frontline: League of Denial


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Re: Frontline: League of Denial

Postby jazzcyclist » Fri Oct 11, 2013 6:48 am

I don't think that when I was coming up coaches taught dangerous blocking and tackling techniques because of disregard for player safety, they taught them because it was probably the way they were taught when they played and they didn't know any better. Coaches back in those days simply weren't aware of the effects that multiple concussions could have on a player's long-term health. That information has only become widely known in the last five years. I would be shocked if any high school or little league coach is teaching those same techniques these days.
Last edited by jazzcyclist on Fri Oct 11, 2013 8:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Frontline: League of Denial

Postby gh » Fri Oct 11, 2013 8:41 am

local NFL writer in his weekly column praised the documentary, but added, "but it fumbled the ball in the red zone by never mentioning the players' union, which did nothing over the years to protect the players who were paying it dues."
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Re: Frontline: League of Denial

Postby jazzcyclist » Fri Oct 11, 2013 8:56 am

Folks thought Robert Smith was crazy when he walked away from the sport at the relatively young age of 28, at the height of his powers as the NFC's leading rusher, and all set to sign that one big, long-term contract that all NFL players dream of getting at least once in their careers. As time goes by and more information comes out, I'm guessing there are a lot of other players who wish they would have walked away from the sport earlier than they did.
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Re: Frontline: League of Denial

Postby DrJay » Fri Oct 11, 2013 8:58 am

cullman wrote:
DrJay wrote:I didn't see the show....don't see that Rocky Mtn PBS has it teed up in the next few days...

The PBS website has the full documentary as well as extras: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline ... of-denial/


Thanks!
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Re: Frontline: League of Denial

Postby gh » Fri Oct 11, 2013 9:43 am

Dixon wrote:.. But back then it was like you said.....just had my bell rung...no biggie.


And this is exactly the mindset that is literally killing people. It IS a biggie.

And while thinking it's no big deal at the time may prove how "tough" you are, CTE doesn't respect toughness; everyone is an equal-opportunity victim, no matter how macho.
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Re: Frontline: League of Denial

Postby jazzcyclist » Fri Oct 11, 2013 10:22 am

gh wrote:
Dixon wrote:.. But back then it was like you said.....just had my bell rung...no biggie.


And this is exactly the mindset that is literally killing people. It IS a biggie.

And while thinking it's no big deal at the time may prove how "tough" you are, CTE doesn't respect toughness; everyone is an equal-opportunity victim, no matter how macho.

But back then people didn't know about CTE, and that's the point I was trying to make. People thought that as soon as your your cognition was fully restored, you were 100% cured. There was a time when people in the petrochemical industry used to wash their hands with benzene because no one knew that it was a carcinogen. Thankfully, by the time I came along, that information was known, the industry had modified its practices and procedures accordingly, and today benzene is treated with the utmost respect.
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Re: Frontline: League of Denial

Postby gh » Fri Oct 11, 2013 11:12 am

even with CTE now "common knowledge" I'd wager that the majority of "football people" still place a higher value on being a tough guy than they do about preserving mental health.
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Re: Frontline: League of Denial

Postby jazzcyclist » Fri Oct 11, 2013 11:38 am

gh wrote:even with CTE now "common knowledge" I'd wager that the majority of "football people" still place a higher value on being a tough guy than they do about preserving mental health.

I don't know if it's a majorty or not, but currently, attitudes are fluid and moving in the direction of caution, as evidenced by the fact that more and more players are walking away from the game at the college and pro level, after deciding that they don't want to risk any more consussions.

Houston QB David Piland quits playing because of concussions

Two Arizona linebackers retire due to concussions
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Re: Frontline: League of Denial

Postby gh » Fri Oct 11, 2013 12:15 pm

depending on how you read between the lines in the Arizona case, they may not have had much choice

<<at the advice of their doctors, their football career is over.”>>

Doesn't the NCAA (probably because of liability concerns) have pretty strict no-more-play rules regards concussions? I seem to recall a rash lately of local women basketball/soccer/volleyball types who have been forced to step away from the game.
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Re: Frontline: League of Denial

Postby Dutra5 » Fri Oct 11, 2013 7:28 pm

My son is playing football at an FCS school currently and I worry about him getting through his college career with no head injuries. He's a WR so he doesn't have the banging on every play that the front 7 of a defense does but I still worry. He's had a severe knee injury which has him redshirting this season.

I was on the coaching staff during his youth league days and the players were taught the proper technique although there were some who absolutely refused to do it and led with their helmets. I suggested removing the kids from games but the kids were effective and the DC looked at me as if I was out of my mind.
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Re: Frontline: League of Denial

Postby Dutra5 » Fri Oct 11, 2013 7:33 pm

gh wrote:even with CTE now "common knowledge" I'd wager that the majority of "football people" still place a higher value on being a tough guy than they do about preserving mental health.


Ever read an NFL message board? To the leadheads, Roger Goodell is evil incarnate....not for denying CTE issues....but for taking their game away with his helmet to helmet rules.
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Re: Frontline: League of Denial

Postby Dixon » Fri Oct 11, 2013 11:50 pm

gh wrote:
Dixon wrote:.. But back then it was like you said.....just had my bell rung...no biggie.


And this is exactly the mindset that is literally killing people. It IS a biggie.

And while thinking it's no big deal at the time may prove how "tough" you are, CTE doesn't respect toughness; everyone is an equal-opportunity victim, no matter how macho.


No it wasn't a biggie at that time. What does a player do, go sit down and tell the coach you can't play because you got dinged? Keep in mind I am talking another time/world.

The bottom line is everyone knows what can happen to you out there. Just like a boxer. You can't go around all..."I might get hurt"...hell, just stay in doors if you feel that way. If a kid wants to be a football player he's accepting that risk. We all know it.
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Re: Frontline: League of Denial

Postby Dixon » Fri Oct 11, 2013 11:54 pm

gh wrote:even with CTE now "common knowledge" I'd wager that the majority of "football people" still place a higher value on being a tough guy than they do about preserving mental health.


Absolutely!!!!!!!

Here comes Brandon Jacobs all knees and shoulder pads and 264 pounds coming at you. you're a 200 pound cornerback, what do you do, go hide? Hell no, you hit him low and hard. If you break his leg or knock yourself out....oh well....that's football. A sport never meant to be played about guys this big, strong and fast.
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Re: Frontline: League of Denial

Postby jazzcyclist » Sat Oct 12, 2013 7:48 am

gh wrote:depending on how you read between the lines in the Arizona case, they may not have had much choice

<<at the advice of their doctors, their football career is over.”>>

Doesn't the NCAA (probably because of liability concerns) have pretty strict no-more-play rules regards concussions? I seem to recall a rash lately of local women basketball/soccer/volleyball types who have been forced to step away from the game.

Whether it was the players' decision or the doctors' decision, this wasn't happening 20-30 years ago, so attitudes have definitely changed for the better.

This morning here was an excellent segment on this very topic on College Gameday. David Pollack said that the attitude of trying to tough out concussions, lest your teammates think that you're a wimp, seems to be rapidly fading away from the environment of today's football locker rooms. Lee Corso said that he thinks removing the facemasks from helmets would help, noting that he played in the pre-face mask era and went through his football career concussion-free, albeit with multiple broken noses and separated shoulders. According to Chris Fowler, doctors are now recommending that kids not play tackle football until they're 14 years old. Desmond Howard and Kirk Herbstriet both pointed the finger at ESPN for highlighting violent hits like the Jadaveon Clowney hit over and over, and thereby perpetuating the culture among football players to blow people up. They also did a feature on LSU offensive lineman Josh Williford who walked away from the game after suffering three concussions in two years, but is being allowed to keep his scholarship until he graduates. The NCAA could also help by not counting players like Williford against a football programs scholarship limitation.
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Re: Frontline: League of Denial

Postby Dutra5 » Sat Oct 12, 2013 7:53 am

Dixon wrote:
The bottom line is everyone knows what can happen to you out there. Just like a boxer. You can't go around all..."I might get hurt"...hell, just stay in doors if you feel that way. If a kid wants to be a football player he's accepting that risk. We all know it.


....and...as we all can attest....kids always make the most rational, well thought out decisions.
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Re: Frontline: League of Denial

Postby no one » Sat Oct 12, 2013 2:20 pm

... and gh's point is further cemented. And the meaning of 'denial' is virtually made plain.
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Re: Frontline: League of Denial

Postby Wang Lung » Sun Oct 13, 2013 1:45 am

In my opinion, the speed of the game is the problem. Rules changes, equipment changes, domed stadiums, and surfaces have sped things up dramatically. Defensive linemen and linebackers no longer read OL linemen's heads anymore. Everyone is either crashing or stunting because it's a good bet every play is a pass. TV dictates high scoring games and that means passing. There is a big difference between getting hit in the head after a seven yard run by an off balance linebacker who's fought off a blocker, and a receiver running full speed one direction while the safety is running another unimpeded. I played from 1970 to 1978 against eventual HOF players and never had a concussion nor saw anyone else get one. It's hard to get up a head of steam when you are playing in mud, sleet, and a 20 mph wind. It's not always like that of course, but playing in a dome with a surface similar to velcro with no wind at 70F is ridiculous. I read an article somewhere a couple of years ago that said linemen are now wearing the same shoulder pads kickers wore 20 years ago. And the NFL just mandated knee and thigh pads after waiving them several years ago. The players said they didn't look good in them. :shock: Everything about the game is out of whack and the tap root is TV.
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Re: Frontline: League of Denial

Postby jazzcyclist » Sun Oct 13, 2013 2:07 am

Wang Lung wrote:Everyone is either crashing or stunting because it's a good bet every play is a pass. TV dictates high scoring games and that means passing. There is a big difference between getting hit in the head after a seven yard run by an off balance linebacker who's fought off a blocker, and a receiver running full speed one direction while the safety is running another unimpeded.

This is what I'm talking about. These rule changes were made in the holy name of TV ratings, but at the expense of player safety. Earlier I recommended bringing back bump-and-run coverage, but another recommendation would be to ban zone defenses. The NBA banned zone defenses in the name of scoring/TV ratings, so why not ban zone coverage in the name of player safety?
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Re: Frontline: League of Denial

Postby scottmitchell74 » Sun Oct 13, 2013 6:15 am

The added safety would of course be nice, but I would LOVE the return of bump and run. I just like how football in the 70s and 80s "looked". Jazzy, your point makes tons of sense. You'd be reducing the amount of full speed collisions greatly by returning to the bump and run. Maybe Hayes and Haynes could strap on a helmet again!
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Re: Frontline: League of Denial

Postby Dixon » Sun Oct 13, 2013 8:52 am

Dutra5 wrote:
Dixon wrote:
The bottom line is everyone knows what can happen to you out there. Just like a boxer. You can't go around all..."I might get hurt"...hell, just stay in doors if you feel that way. If a kid wants to be a football player he's accepting that risk. We all know it.


....and...as we all can attest....kids always make the most rational, well thought out decisions.


Well dad played the game as did uncle Joe.
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Re: Frontline: League of Denial

Postby jazzcyclist » Sun Oct 13, 2013 9:45 am

Dixon wrote:Well dad played the game as did uncle Joe.

And Dad also came up in the Jim Crow era, when gays were forced to stay in the closet, before seat belts in cars were mandatory and air bags hadn't been invented, when people painted their homes with lead paint, before there were laws requiring child seats, when drunk driving wasn't considered much worse than jay-walking and when cigarette smoking was still cool because folks didn't know tobacco caused cancer.
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Re: Frontline: League of Denial

Postby Dutra5 » Sun Oct 13, 2013 2:38 pm

scottmitchell74 wrote:The added safety would of course be nice, but I would LOVE the return of bump and run. I just like how football in the 70s and 80s "looked". Jazzy, your point makes tons of sense. You'd be reducing the amount of full speed collisions greatly by returning to the bump and run. Maybe Hayes and Haynes could strap on a helmet again!


They'll never be able to snap the chinstrap on with all that sticky stuff on them.
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Re: Frontline: League of Denial

Postby TN1965 » Tue Oct 15, 2013 10:55 am

In the meantime, this guy seems to be in another kind of denial.

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nba-ball- ... 02742.html

Beating Lebron in one-on-one? Really? :roll:
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Re: Frontline: League of Denial

Postby Dixon » Wed Oct 16, 2013 11:05 pm

jazzcyclist wrote:
Dixon wrote:Well dad played the game as did uncle Joe.

And Dad also came up in the Jim Crow era, when gays were forced to stay in the closet, before seat belts in cars were mandatory and air bags hadn't been invented, when people painted their homes with lead paint, before there were laws requiring child seats, when drunk driving wasn't considered much worse than jay-walking and when cigarette smoking was still cool because folks didn't know tobacco caused cancer.


No not really, a boy today wouldn't have a father that old.

So nobody should box/MMA/bull ride either?
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Re: Frontline: League of Denial

Postby 26mi235 » Thu Oct 17, 2013 8:23 am

Dixon wrote:
No not really, a boy today wouldn't have a father that old.


I must be younger than I thought, and the father of my son's classmate, who is 5-6 years older than me probably just has a typo on his birth certificate that says he was born during the war.
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Re: Frontline: League of Denial

Postby bambam » Thu Oct 17, 2013 8:28 am

http://ideas.time.com/2013/10/10/were-s ... z2hyclyrpE

Some interesting thoughts on this topic from Bob Cantu, a neurosurgeon who is one of the leader's in concussion studies.
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Re: Frontline: League of Denial

Postby Pego » Thu Oct 17, 2013 11:52 am

bambam wrote:http://ideas.time.com/2013/10/10/were-still-in-the-dark-about-kids-and-concussions/#ixzz2hyclyrpE

Some interesting thoughts on this topic from Bob Cantu, a neurosurgeon who is one of the leader's in concussion studies.


I read the article. Following my grandson's football playing of the past 6-7 years (flag first, tackle the last 3), this is my observation.

Vast majority of the injuries have been to the limbs, knees particularly. Head/neck injuries were mostly caused by face mask fouls. Personally, I see very little use for the face mask, btw.
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Re: Frontline: League of Denial

Postby Dixon » Fri Oct 18, 2013 2:31 am

Pego wrote:
bambam wrote:http://ideas.time.com/2013/10/10/were-still-in-the-dark-about-kids-and-concussions/#ixzz2hyclyrpE

Some interesting thoughts on this topic from Bob Cantu, a neurosurgeon who is one of the leader's in concussion studies.


I read the article. Following my grandson's football playing of the past 6-7 years (flag first, tackle the last 3), this is my observation.

Vast majority of the injuries have been to the limbs, knees particularly. Head/neck injuries were mostly caused by face mask fouls. Personally, I see very little use for the face mask, btw.


No way you can play football without a face mask. You'd have guys hurt constantly. Broken noses all over the place. Imagine a straight arm right in your face.
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Re: Frontline: League of Denial

Postby Dixon » Fri Oct 18, 2013 2:34 am

26mi235 wrote:
Dixon wrote:
No not really, a boy today wouldn't have a father that old.


I must be younger than I thought, and the father of my son's classmate, who is 5-6 years older than me probably just has a typo on his birth certificate that says he was born during the war.


Let's say a kid is 18, his dad was 25 when he had him. Do the math.
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Re: Frontline: League of Denial

Postby Pego » Fri Oct 18, 2013 3:02 am

Dixon wrote:
Pego wrote:
bambam wrote:http://ideas.time.com/2013/10/10/were-still-in-the-dark-about-kids-and-concussions/#ixzz2hyclyrpE

Some interesting thoughts on this topic from Bob Cantu, a neurosurgeon who is one of the leader's in concussion studies.


I read the article. Following my grandson's football playing of the past 6-7 years (flag first, tackle the last 3), this is my observation.

Vast majority of the injuries have been to the limbs, knees particularly. Head/neck injuries were mostly caused by face mask fouls. Personally, I see very little use for the face mask, btw.


No way you can play football without a face mask. You'd have guys hurt constantly. Broken noses all over the place. Imagine a straight arm right in your face.


I can see that. What about a hockey style face mask that you cannot grab?
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Re: Frontline: League of Denial

Postby Dixon » Fri Oct 18, 2013 3:09 am

Pego wrote:
Dixon wrote:
Pego wrote:
bambam wrote:http://ideas.time.com/2013/10/10/were-still-in-the-dark-about-kids-and-concussions/#ixzz2hyclyrpE

Some interesting thoughts on this topic from Bob Cantu, a neurosurgeon who is one of the leader's in concussion studies.


I read the article. Following my grandson's football playing of the past 6-7 years (flag first, tackle the last 3), this is my observation.

Vast majority of the injuries have been to the limbs, knees particularly. Head/neck injuries were mostly caused by face mask fouls. Personally, I see very little use for the face mask, btw.


No way you can play football without a face mask. You'd have guys hurt constantly. Broken noses all over the place. Imagine a straight arm right in your face.


I can see that. What about a hockey style face mask that you cannot grab?


Football is a very very vicious and violent game played by big mean bad men. That's the game. People are going to get hurt. If ya don't wanna hurt, don't play.

I hate to come off cold and uncaring but that's the bottom line.

Sure they could do something with the face mask, hockey style....cool.
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Re: Frontline: League of Denial

Postby jazzcyclist » Fri Oct 18, 2013 6:14 am

Dixon wrote:No way you can play football without a face mask. You'd have guys hurt constantly. Broken noses all over the place. Imagine a straight arm right in your face.

Actually, just last week, Lee Corso was advocating removing face masks since he believes that players would calibrate their blocking and tackling without them. He pointed out that he played in the pre-face mask era, and though he did have a few broken noses and seperated shoulders, he went through his entire career without a concussion. There's a reason why rugby players aren't always trying to blow players up like football players do. Can anyone here weigh in on the frequency of concussions in rugby?

And i don't know where you get this "straight arm right in your face" idea from, since clothes-lining was outlawed a long time ago, even before I played high school football, and if a player tried to do that today, he would no doubt be looking at a multiple-game suspension.
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Re: Frontline: League of Denial

Postby jazzcyclist » Fri Oct 18, 2013 6:28 am

Dixon wrote:Let's say a kid is 18, his dad was 25 when he had him. Do the math.

Come on man. You can't see the forest for the trees. It's irrelevant whether or not 26mi was born before or after seatbelts became mandatory and cigarette manufacturers started putting warning labels on their products, the main point is that times have changed since the days when he grew up, and the age in which is son is growing up, so its useless to talk about how things were "back in the day". The bottom line is that no one knew about CTE when you and I played football, but they do know, and open-minded people are always willing to change their minds as new facts and information become available.
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Re: Frontline: League of Denial

Postby Dixon » Fri Oct 18, 2013 9:24 am

jazzcyclist wrote:
Dixon wrote:No way you can play football without a face mask. You'd have guys hurt constantly. Broken noses all over the place. Imagine a straight arm right in your face.

Actually, just last week, Lee Corso was advocating removing face masks since he believes that players would calibrate their blocking and tackling without them. He pointed out that he played in the pre-face mask era, and though he did have a few broken noses and seperated shoulders, he went through his entire career without a concussion. There's a reason why rugby players aren't always trying to blow players up like football players do. Can anyone here weigh in on the frequency of concussions in rugby?

And i don't know where you get this "straight arm right in your face" idea from, since clothes-lining was outlawed a long time ago, even before I played high school football, and if a player tried to do that today, he would no doubt be looking at a multiple-game suspension.


We see straight arms to face masks in every football game played at every level. A quick shove is what I'm talking about.

I got more banged up as a defensive back than I did at running back. More dangerous trying to tackle than being tackled as you know. Imagine a knee to the face or an elbow. I actually broke a face mask once, what if I hadn't had it on?

I'd love to see them try to play the game without one, what a high school kids with broken noses?
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Re: Frontline: League of Denial

Postby Dixon » Fri Oct 18, 2013 9:33 am

jazzcyclist wrote:
Dixon wrote:Let's say a kid is 18, his dad was 25 when he had him. Do the math.

Come on man. You can't see the forest for the trees. It's irrelevant whether or not 26mi was born before or after seatbelts became mandatory and cigarette manufacturers started putting warning labels on their products, the main point is that times have changed since the days when he grew up, and the age in which is son is growing up, so its useless to talk about how things were "back in the day". The bottom line is that no one knew about CTE when you and I played football, but they do know, and open-minded people are always willing to change their minds as new facts and information become available.


Who ever played the game of football worrying about injury? Hell, we'd play on concrete as kids. What mom didn't.....you're going to get hurt playing in the street? Who cared?

Who isn't aware of the dangers of football? Who doesn't know about Daryl Stingley or any of those strapped to a wheel chair because of football? Everyone knows it's a dangerous game, so you either stay away from it or say the hell with it. As we can see a lot of athletes say the hell with it.

You can play football without using the helmet as a weapon. That does need to be taken as seriously as it is being taken. You don't need to hit people with it. Like smoking it has to become..."you hit with your helmet, what an idiot!"...or uncool. Once it starts making the players look stupid instead of bad it will stop.

Have a coach get right in a players face in front of the world berating him in front of everyone for a stupid helmet hit. It won't take many of those to change things.

Why would anyone wanna be a marine/cop/fighter/rodeo cowboy.......ya could get hurt.
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Re: Frontline: League of Denial

Postby jazzcyclist » Fri Oct 18, 2013 10:31 am

Dixon, do you know what CTE is? If so, when did you find out about it?
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Re: Frontline: League of Denial

Postby Dixon » Fri Oct 18, 2013 10:53 am

jazzcyclist wrote:Dixon, do you know what CTE is? If so, when did you find out about it?


Who doesn't know what it is and I found out about it just recently.

But you really aren't getting it. I played in those HS alumni games in my 30's, totally out of football shape, I could have been seriously hurt out there, we all could of, hell there were guys out there pushing 50. Nobody cared, we loved the sport. If we get broke in two...bummer...the chance you take.

Tell me jazz why would anyone wanna be a marine? They know the dangers so tell me why doesn't it matter?

People don't go around in life trying to protect themselves against everything, ya step up to the plate swing for the fences then hope for the best.

My football/military (navy) memories are priceless. No way in hell I wouldn't do it all again. Who wants to live a life all safe and unmemorable?

Yes something needs to be done about helmet shots, that I agree with but ya don't play football worrying about getting hurt, or some condition.

I was 19 years old sitting on a bar stool in Olongopo Phillipines on my left a Singapore Sling on my right a cute little bar girl with a tattoo of a little blue butterfly over her right breast (or was it left) we ended up at her place. Hell i could have been set up, a trap......oh well.
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Re: Frontline: League of Denial

Postby jazzcyclist » Fri Oct 18, 2013 11:16 am

Dixon wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote:Dixon, do you know what CTE is? If so, when did you find out about it?


Who doesn't know what it is and I found out about it just recentlyl.

And yet this new information doesn't seem to have changed your thinking at all. That really surprises me. Like you, I only found out about CTE recently, and before then I thought the biggest risk that football player took was a broken limb, a blown-out knee, cracked ribs and in rare instances, paralysis. Yes, Darryl Stingley was always in the back of my mind when I played football, but I knew that risk was less than 1 in a 1000. However, CTE seems to occur at a much higher rate, and not only has it changed the way I view the sport, it's changing the way current football players view the sport, which is why quite a few of them are saying that they won't let their sons play football.

If someone had told me that there was a 10% chance that I would break a limb playing football, I probably would have still played. I might have even played if there was a 100% chance that it would happen. However, if someone had told me that there was a 10% chance that I would end up with CTE or a parapalegic, I would have probably quit.
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Re: Frontline: League of Denial

Postby Dixon » Fri Oct 18, 2013 11:24 am

jazzcyclist wrote:
Dixon wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote:Dixon, do you know what CTE is? If so, when did you find out about it?


Who doesn't know what it is and I found out about it just recentlyl.

And yet this new information doesn't seem to have changed your thinking at all. That really surprises me. Like you, I only found out about CTE recently, and before then I thought the biggest risk that football player took was a broken limb, a blown-out knee, cracked ribs and in rare instances, paralysis. Yes, Darryl Stingley was always in the back of my mind when I played football, but I knew that risk was less than 1 in a 1000. However, CTE seems to occur at a much higher rate, and not only has it changed the way I view the sport, it's changing the way current football players view the sport, which is why quite a few of them are saying that they won't let their sons play football.


How many people in this country smoke/drink/drugs? How long have we known the dangers? Who goes out to a bar has too many then drives home? They know the dangers.

Why do you ignore my comments on the marines.boxing.rodeo.MMA.NACAR.....why don't people care about the dangers?

I know tons of x footballers like myself as far as I know known of them are suffering any ill effects from their old football days. I also know their memories are priceless.

Nothing would have stopped me from playing football.
Dixon
 
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Re: Frontline: League of Denial

Postby gh » Fri Oct 18, 2013 11:53 am

That's why it's called League Of Denial.
gh
 
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