2013 NFL (American Pro Football)


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2013 NFL (American Pro Football)

Postby jazzcyclist » Wed Sep 11, 2013 3:45 pm

Dixon, I'm sure you saw the unveiling of Philadelphia's new fastbreak offense a couple days ago. What are your thoughts about it?
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Re: 2013 NFL (American Pro Football)

Postby Marlow » Wed Sep 11, 2013 5:03 pm

The Eagles had 53 plays in the first half! :shock:
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Re: 2013 NFL (American Pro Football)

Postby Dixon » Wed Sep 11, 2013 5:36 pm

jazzcyclist wrote:Dixon, I'm sure you saw the unveiling of Philadelphia's new fastbreak offense a couple days ago. What are your thoughts about it?


It won't work over a 17week(playoffs?) NFL season, a few games...ok. First off these linemen aren't 20-21 years old. And you don't have 90 players on a roster. And Michael Vick can't take much of a pounding, hell he was already hobbling around. What about giving your defense time for a blow? These guys aren't 20-21 either.

While that is an opinion this is a fact...we'll be seeing defenders with cramps, pulled this and that in every Eagles games....real or imagined...mostly imagined :mrgreen:
Last edited by Dixon on Thu Sep 12, 2013 1:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 2013 NFL (American Pro Football)

Postby Dixon » Wed Sep 11, 2013 8:02 pm

It appears Sanchez is out for the season.
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Re: 2013 NFL (American Pro Football)

Postby jazzcyclist » Mon Sep 23, 2013 7:14 pm

I'm surprised Dixon hadn't commented of tonight's football game since it does feature Trindon Holliday (10.00) and Jacoby Ford (10.01), the two fastest men in the history of football. Yeah, I know, I know, Hayes would have run faster than both of them had he ever gotten a chance to run on a synthetic track, but the bottom line is that 10.06 was Hayes' PR.

By the way, Jeff Demps got picked up by Tampa Bay, which makes me think that since he seems to have no problem getting picked up by NFL teams after the pro track season is over, perhaps some of the other NFL football players with elite track credentials should consider having their cake and eat it too.
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Re: 2013 NFL (American Pro Football)

Postby Bruce Kritzler » Mon Sep 23, 2013 7:42 pm

Looks like it took defensive coordinators a whole week to figure out Chip Kelly's offense.
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Re: 2013 NFL (American Pro Football)

Postby Dixon » Mon Sep 23, 2013 9:05 pm

jazzcyclist wrote:I'm surprised Dixon hadn't commented of tonight's football game since it does feature Trindon Holliday (10.00) and Jacoby Ford (10.01), the two fastest men in the history of football. Yeah, I know, I know, Hayes would have run faster than both of them had he ever gotten a chance to run on a synthetic track, but the bottom line is that 10.06 was Hayes' PR.

By the way, Jeff Demps got picked up by Tampa Bay, which makes me think that since he seems to have no problem getting picked up by NFL teams after the pro track season is over, perhaps some of the other NFL football players with elite track credentials should consider having their cake and eat it too.


Well here we go...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=icyrfI6Z8w0

Just think the Raiders have had....

Jacoby Ford 10.01
Alvis Whitted 10.07
Olympian Sam Graddy 10.09...who was also a Bronco.
Olympian Ron Brown 10.06
Olympian James Jett 10.16
Willie Gault 10.10
James Trapp 10.14
Michael Bennett 10.18ish
Cliff Branch 9.2
Eugene White 9.4
Alexander Wright NFL Fastest Man winner
Bo Jackson a 4.16 40
Cal HS 100m winners...Justin Fargas and Napolean Kaufman

Some countries can't compare to that.

While Jimmy Hines is the fastest player to ever suit up in an NFL game ...time wise...Bob Hayes is the fastest footballer ever in the NFL (as you mentioned)

Trivia...when Hayes was in the league what two players also in the league had beaten him?

But....the fastest athlete to ever step foot on a football field time wise was Tennesee's Leonard Scott with his 9.91. He got a shot with the Steelers, didn't make it. John Capel and Xavier Carter also deserve mention.

I don't think pro footbal would work for someone trying to do both. Keep in mind these guys are going to be smallish compared to other footballers.
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Re: 2013 NFL (American Pro Football)

Postby jazzcyclist » Tue Sep 24, 2013 4:13 am

I knew about Hines {9.95A}, Scott (9.91) and Capel (9.95). However, I don't consider Scott and Capel to be faster than football players than Holliday because they didn't achieve those times until long after they had left football, meaning that they never brought their sub-10 credentials to the football field. Holliday, Ford and Demps all ran their times while being full-time football players in between football seasons, and in some cases, spring training. As for Hines, all the accepted conversion tables I've seen rate 9.95A as being inferior to 10.00. Then there's Hayes who ran 10.06 on cinder. I wish there was cinder to mondo conversion table, but their isn't, but to keep the peace, I'm willing to give him the nod over Holliday, Ford and Demps. From now on, I'm going to use the "C" designation when discussing Hayes. How about this?

10.06C > 10.00 > 10.01 > 9.95A
(Hayes > Holliday > Ford = Demps > Hines)
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Re: 2013 NFL (American Pro Football)

Postby Marlow » Tue Sep 24, 2013 4:31 am

jazzcyclist wrote:10.06C > 10.00 > 10.01 > 9.95A
(Hayes > Holliday > Ford = Demps > Hines)

I like it. You'd have to think cinders (esp. his chewed up lane 1) were .1-.2 slower. Probably closer to .3 for the hyper-fast Mondo hard tracks.

(but I also do not think that all modern 10.00s are faster than current 10.01s, since track 'energy returns' vary.)
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Re: 2013 NFL (American Pro Football)

Postby jazzcyclist » Tue Sep 24, 2013 7:43 am

Marlow wrote:I like it. You'd have to think cinders (esp. his chewed up lane 1) were .1-.2 slower. Probably closer to .3 for the hyper-fast Mondo hard tracks.

So I guess you're saying 10.06 (Tokyo 1964) = 9.76 (Tokyo 1991) = [9.86-9.96] (Moscow 2013)? :?: Hmm . . . . .
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Re: 2013 NFL (American Pro Football)

Postby Marlow » Tue Sep 24, 2013 8:12 am

jazzcyclist wrote:
Marlow wrote:I like it. You'd have to think cinders (esp. his chewed up lane 1) were .1-.2 slower. Probably closer to .3 for the hyper-fast Mondo hard tracks.

So I guess you're saying 10.06 (Tokyo 1964) = 9.76 (Tokyo 1991) = [9.86-9.96] (Moscow 2013)? :?: Hmm . . . . .

Oh, there's no question in my mind that Hayes might be the second fastest human who ever lived, so the math is there.
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Re: 2013 NFL (American Pro Football)

Postby KDFINE » Tue Sep 24, 2013 10:15 am

I think the short answer to Dixon's trivia question is Roger Sayers and Homer Jones. Hayes beat Carr in the finals of the 1964 trials 200, but I don't know if there was ever a time when Carr may have defeated Hayes at Carr's specialty.
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Re: 2013 NFL (American Pro Football)

Postby Dixon » Tue Sep 24, 2013 11:06 am

jazzcyclist wrote:I knew about Hines {9.95A}, Scott (9.91) and Capel (9.95). However, I don't consider Scott and Capel to be faster than football players than Holliday because they didn't achieve those times until long after they had left football, meaning that they never brought their sub-10 credentials to the football field. Holliday, Ford and Demps all ran their times while being full-time football players in between football seasons, and in some cases, spring training. As for Hines, all the accepted conversion tables I've seen rate 9.95A as being inferior to 10.00. Then there's Hayes who ran 10.06 on cinder. I wish there was cinder to mondo conversion table, but their isn't, but to keep the peace, I'm willing to give him the nod over Holliday, Ford and Demps. From now on, I'm going to use the "C" designation when discussing Hayes. How about this?

10.06C > 10.00 > 10.01 > 9.95A
(Hayes > Holliday > Ford = Demps > Hines)


Let's just dump Hines, he did next to..0..in football. Let's keep it to real footballers (well hell Dixon you brought him up 8-) )

There is no doubt that Bob Hayes was the fastest footballer ever. Yes we need to go with what you came up with, that'll work!

I agree about what you said about times ran after football. I was just going with what footballers have ran which is weak.

As far as the NFL goes

Olympians ***

lane

1.Jeff Demps..10.01 Buc's/Florida
2.Sam Graddy...10.09 Raiders/Tenn***
3.Jacoby Ford...10.01 Raiders/Clemson
4.Bob Hayes...10.06 Cowboys/FAMU***
5.Trindon Holliday...10.00 Broncos/LSU
6.Darrel Green...10.08 Redskins/Tex A&I
7.Ron Brown...10.06 Rams/ASU***
8.Alvis Whitted...10.07 Raiders/NCSt

"B"

lane

1.Willie McGee..9.1 Chargers/Alcorn
2.Willie Gault ...10.10 Bears/Tenn
3.Curtis Dickey...10.10 Colts/Tex A&M
4.Cliff Branch...9.2 Raiders/Colorado
5.James Jett...10.16 Raiders/WV***
6.James Trapp...10.14 Raiders/Clemson
7.Mel Gray...9.2 Cards/Missouri
8.Frank Budd..9.2 Eagles/Villanova***

"C"

lane

1.Gerald Tinker...9.3 Falcons/Kent St ***
2.Jamaal Charles...10.18? Chiefs/Texans
3.Michael Bennett...10.18? Vikings/Wisconsin
4.Cecil Turner..9.3 Bears/CPSLO
5.Henry Carr...9.3 Giants/ASU***
6.Isacc Curtis...9.3 Cal/SDS/Cinncy
7.Michael Bates...10.10 Seahawks/Arizona***
8.Johnny Jones..9.3 Jets/Texas***

"D"

1.Travis Williams...9.3 Packers/ASU
2.Mike Mller...10.10 Packers/Tenn
3.Terrence Newman..10.20 Cowboys/Kansas St
4.Larry Burton...9.3 Purdue/Saints***
5.JD Hill...9.3 Bills/ASU
6.Homer Jones...9.3 Giants/TSU
7.Sammie Parker..10.17 Chiefs/Oregon
8.Herschel Walker...10.23 Cowboys/Geworgia


Ray Norton did so little as an NFLer as did Tommie Smith..hmmm? Budd didn't do much either so boderline. Forget Jimmy Hines.
Last edited by Dixon on Tue Sep 24, 2013 11:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 2013 NFL (American Pro Football)

Postby Dixon » Tue Sep 24, 2013 11:19 am

KDFINE wrote:I think the short answer to Dixon's trivia question is Roger Sayers and Homer Jones. Hayes beat Carr in the finals of the 1964 trials 200, but I don't know if there was ever a time when Carr may have defeated Hayes at Carr's specialty.


Roger Sayers did beat Hayes but he never played in the NFL. He was a 160 pounder, but you'd think he'd made it as a kick returner.

Yep, Homer Jones beat Hayes in an NAIA 200.

Henry Carr did beat Hayes in a 200, so it was ...Jones and Carr.

Now we always hear/read about how Hayes changed everything because he was just too fast. So here came the...zone defense.

Back in the mid 50's the Rams had NCAA 100 champ Bob Boyd. He was a 9.5 guy. Now back then there weren't the speedy defensive backs we'd see later, so a case can be made for Boyd being the first great speedster at wide receiver in the NFL.

Don Hutson.???
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Re: 2013 NFL (American Pro Football)

Postby Dixon » Sun Sep 29, 2013 12:14 am

Let's see if we can take trends/stats and actually use them to see into the future.

The Saints are a strong 12-1 ATS vs non division opponets after winning three in a row. The Dolphins a feeble 2-9 as a road dog on MNF.

So we have a 21=3 trend favoring the Saints in this "spot'. Saints -6.5
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Re: 2013 NFL (American Pro Football)

Postby KDFINE » Sun Sep 29, 2013 8:19 am

Dixon. Thanks for the correction. I must have read the question incorrectly because I knew that Roger Sayers didn't play in the NFL.
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Re: 2013 NFL (American Pro Football)

Postby Dixon » Sun Sep 29, 2013 5:42 pm

KDFINE wrote:Dixon. Thanks for the correction. I must have read the question incorrectly because I knew that Roger Sayers didn't play in the NFL.


No biggie :D
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Re: 2013 NFL (American Pro Football)

Postby jazzcyclist » Mon Sep 30, 2013 7:18 am

Trindon Holliday took another kick-off to the house yesterday. With a base salary of $480,000, is it fair to say that he made a wise choice by choosing pro football over pro track? Other NFL base salaries of notable elite track and field athletes:

    Jacoby Ford - $1,323,000
    Marquis Goodwin - $405,000
    Jeff Demps - $405,000
These figures don't include signing bonuses and incentives.
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Re: 2013 NFL (American Pro Football)

Postby Marlow » Mon Sep 30, 2013 7:31 am

jazzcyclist wrote:Trindon Holliday took another kick-off to the house yesterday. With a base salary of $480,000, is it fair to say that he made a wise choice by choosing pro football over pro track? Other NFL base salaries of notable elite track and field athletes:
    Jacoby Ford - $1,323,000
    Marquis Goodwin - $405,000
    Jeff Demps - $405,000
These figures don't include signing bonuses and incentives.

I would love to see this:

Get the fastest football players in full battle gear. Put a football in their hands.
Put slalom gates in a straight line at 15y, 30y and 45y that they must weave thru.
Time them for 60 yards.

I'm betting the resultant order of finish would not be the same as their 100m times or even their 40y times, but be a much clearer indication of their 'football speed'. Many track stars can't perform under those conditions. Trindon can.
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Re: 2013 NFL (American Pro Football)

Postby jazzcyclist » Mon Sep 30, 2013 8:38 am

Marlow wrote:I would love to see this:

Get the fastest football players in full battle gear. Put a football in their hands.
Put slalom gates in a straight line at 15y, 30y and 45y that they must weave thru.
Time them for 60 yards.

I'm betting the resultant order of finish would not be the same as their 100m times or even their 40y times, but be a much clearer indication of their 'football speed'. Many track stars can't perform under those conditions. Trindon can.

There are other running events in Indianapolis besides the 40-yard dash.


3 cone drill
The 3 cone drill tests an athlete's ability to change directions at a high speed. Three cones in an L-shape. He starts from the starting line, goes 5 yards to the first cone and back. Then, he turns, runs around the second cone, runs a weave around the third cone, which is the high point of the L, changes directions, comes back around that second cone and finishes.

20-yard shuttle
Three marker cones are placed along a line five yards apart. The player straddles the middle line and puts one hand down in a three-point stance. The player can start by going either to the right or left direction. For example, on the signal 'Go' the player turns and runs five yards to the right side and touches the line with his right hand. He then runs 10 yards to his left and touches the other line with his left hand, then finally turns and finishes by running back through the start/finish line. The player is required to touch the line at each turn.

60-yard shuttle
This is a ladder shuttle of progressing distances. Three marker cones are placed at the yard lines 5 yards apart. The athlete starts from one end, runs 5 yards and back to the start, 10 yards and back, then 15 yards and finishes at the start line. A total of 60 yards is completed. The player is required to touch the line with their hand at each turn, for a total of five touches.
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Re: 2013 NFL (American Pro Football)

Postby user4 » Mon Sep 30, 2013 12:42 pm

Marlow wrote:Get the fastest football players in full battle gear. Put a football in their hands.
Put slalom gates in a straight line at 15y, 30y and 45y that they must weave thru.
Time them for 60 yards.

I'm betting the resultant order of finish would not be the same as their 100m times or even their 40y times, but be a much clearer indication of their 'football speed'. Many track stars can't perform under those conditions. Trindon can.


As Jazzcyclist mentioned above, the football coaches know full well how to test "football speed". Trindon is a 10 flat guy that is a shade over 5'5" tall and he is built like a Barry Sanders-esque stub. He is plenty fast every which way you can measure.

Yes you are right, most elite 100m guys would not perform nearly as spectacular in "football speed" as their 100m times suggest.
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Re: 2013 NFL (American Pro Football)

Postby Pego » Tue Oct 01, 2013 4:22 am

I see that L.C.Greenwood died at 67.

"...and I like an easy opening can."

RIP
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Re: 2013 NFL (American Pro Football)

Postby Dixon » Tue Oct 01, 2013 10:54 pm

Rocket Ismail was a blurr on a football field, his ability to stop/start and change of direction while running fast, incredible. Then there was tiny Buddy Young, Holliday and others that had.."it". Carl Lewis or Usian Bolt would be one trick ponies, the fly pattern, neither would have the quicks, that stop and start ability, that agility with speed.

Top end speed means nothing here, this is more about that sudden burst.
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Re: 2013 NFL (American Pro Football)

Postby jazzcyclist » Wed Oct 02, 2013 5:24 am

I don't think Lewis would have run a fast 40 but I think Bolt would have. However, both of them would have performed poorly in the cone drill and the shuttle runs. By the way, here's the video of Trindon Holliday's latest touchdown for those of you who haven't seen it:

http://www.denverbroncos.com/multimedia ... 84d692b446
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Re: 2013 NFL (American Pro Football)

Postby Marlow » Wed Oct 02, 2013 5:39 am

jazzcyclist wrote:here's the video of Trindon Holliday's latest touchdown for those of you who haven't seen it:

He who hesitates is lost (unless you're Barry Sanders!). TH is fearless in using his amazing acceleration in the first 20m. Most returners try to feel their way out and are therefore nowhere near top speed by the time they reach the first wave of tacklers. But TH is already on his way to top-end when he bursts through the mass and then NO one is going to catch him at full speed.

You have to have some real moxie to be willing to be hit head-on at full speed. He's got it.
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Re: 2013 NFL (American Pro Football)

Postby user4 » Wed Oct 02, 2013 9:14 am

Marlow wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote:here's the video of Trindon Holliday's latest touchdown for those of you who haven't seen it:

... TH is fearless in using his amazing acceleration in the first 20m. Most returners try to feel their way out and are therefore nowhere near top speed by the time they reach the first wave of tacklers. But TH is already on his way to top-end when he bursts through the mass and then NO one is going to catch him at full speed.

You have to have some real moxie to be willing to be hit head-on at full speed. He's got it.


Yep. that basically sums up why Holliday is by far the best return man in the business!
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Re: 2013 NFL (American Pro Football)

Postby Dixon » Wed Oct 02, 2013 9:28 am

user4 wrote:
Marlow wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote:here's the video of Trindon Holliday's latest touchdown for those of you who haven't seen it:

... TH is fearless in using his amazing acceleration in the first 20m. Most returners try to feel their way out and are therefore nowhere near top speed by the time they reach the first wave of tacklers. But TH is already on his way to top-end when he bursts through the mass and then NO one is going to catch him at full speed.

You have to have some real moxie to be willing to be hit head-on at full speed. He's got it.


Yep. that basically sums up why Holliday is by far the best return man in the business!


He is right now, Devin Hester is the king however and he was just a 10.3ish if that fast sprinter.
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Re: 2013 NFL (American Pro Football)

Postby Pego » Thu Oct 17, 2013 3:04 am

It seems that hardly a week passes by without Ndamukong Suh being disciplined for excessive brutality. "Disciplined" is a joke, those few thousand dollars are a pocket change for him. When will the NFL start applying true disciplinary actions for his kind of a player?
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Re: 2013 NFL (American Pro Football)

Postby jazzcyclist » Thu Oct 17, 2013 6:50 am

Pego wrote:It seems that hardly a week passes by without Ndamukong Suh being disciplined for excessive brutality. "Disciplined" is a joke, those few thousand dollars are a pocket change for him. When will the NFL start applying true disciplinary actions for his kind of a player?

Suh certainly deserves his share of scrutiny, but the hit that drew his latest fine was about as chickenshit as it gets IMO. Yesterday, on PTI, it was pointed out that the only two players who would have been fined for that hit are Suh and James Harrison.
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Re: 2013 NFL (American Pro Football)

Postby Pego » Thu Oct 17, 2013 9:37 am

Cry me a river for both of them.
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Re: 2013 NFL (American Pro Football)

Postby jazzcyclist » Thu Oct 17, 2013 9:59 am

Pego wrote:Cry me a river for both of them.

Do you really condone punishing people for past behavior, for which they've already been disciplined? :?
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Re: 2013 NFL (American Pro Football)

Postby Pego » Thu Oct 17, 2013 10:10 am

jazzcyclist wrote:
Pego wrote:Cry me a river for both of them.

Do you really condone punishing people for past behavior, for which they've already been disciplined? :?


Not nearly enough. That's my entire point.
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Re: 2013 NFL (American Pro Football)

Postby jazzcyclist » Thu Oct 17, 2013 11:07 am

Pego wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote:Do you really condone punishing people for past behavior, for which they've already been disciplined?
Not nearly enough.

Not nearly enoough what? :?
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Re: 2013 NFL (American Pro Football)

Postby Pego » Thu Oct 17, 2013 11:54 am

jazzcyclist wrote:
Pego wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote:Do you really condone punishing people for past behavior, for which they've already been disciplined?
Not nearly enough.

Not nearly enoough what? :?


Punishment for brutality.
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Re: 2013 NFL (American Pro Football)

Postby lonewolf » Thu Oct 17, 2013 6:56 pm

The savage in me agrees with Pego.
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Re: 2013 NFL (American Pro Football)

Postby Dixon » Fri Oct 18, 2013 1:03 am

A few predictions for week seven.

Giants finally win a game. At the NFL level a lot has to do with scheduling "spots". We saw the Saints finally lose in a dreaded back to back on the road "spot". The Steelers finally win coming off a bye week. Now we have a Giants team at home on a Monday night vs a Vikes teams plugging in a new QB, perfect "spot" for a Giants win.

Look for the Eagles to beat the Cowboys and take over the NFC East.

Peyton will show Indy they made a big mistake.
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Re: 2013 NFL (American Pro Football)

Postby jazzcyclist » Fri Oct 18, 2013 9:35 am

Dixon wrote:Peyton will show Indy they made a big mistake.

Mistake? By drafting Luck? :?

FYI:
Peyton Manning D.O.B. - 3/24/76
Ancdrew Luck D.O.B. - 9/12/89
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Re: 2013 NFL (American Pro Football)

Postby Dixon » Fri Oct 18, 2013 9:57 am

jazzcyclist wrote:
Dixon wrote:Peyton will show Indy they made a big mistake.

Mistake? By drafting Luck? :?

FYI:
Peyton Manning D.O.B. - 3/24/76
Ancdrew Luck D.O.B. - 9/12/89


You don't treat a player on the level of a Peyton Manning like they did, you disagree?
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Re: 2013 NFL (American Pro Football)

Postby jazzcyclist » Fri Oct 18, 2013 10:14 am

Dixon wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote:
Dixon wrote:Peyton will show Indy they made a big mistake.

Mistake? By drafting Luck? :?

FYI:
Peyton Manning D.O.B. - 3/24/76
Ancdrew Luck D.O.B. - 9/12/89


You don't treat a player on the level of a Peyton Manning like they did, you disagree?

Have you forgotten what the 49ers did to Joe Montana? Respect has nothing to do with it. It is always better to get rid of player one year too early than one year to late and Indianapolis wasn't big enough for both Manning and Luck anyway. To paraphrase Tessio from the movie "The Godfather":

Tell Peyton it was only business. The Colts still like him.
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Re: 2013 NFL (American Pro Football)

Postby Dixon » Fri Oct 18, 2013 10:59 am

jazzcyclist wrote:
Dixon wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote:
Dixon wrote:Peyton will show Indy they made a big mistake.

Mistake? By drafting Luck? :?

FYI:
Peyton Manning D.O.B. - 3/24/76
Ancdrew Luck D.O.B. - 9/12/89


You don't treat a player on the level of a Peyton Manning like they did, you disagree?

Have you forgotten what the 49ers did to Joe Montana? Respect has nothing to do with it. It is always better to get rid of player one year too early than one year to late and Indianapolis wasn't big enough for both Manning and Luck anyway. To paraphrase Tessio from the movie "The Godfather":

Tell Peyton it was only business. The Colts still like him.


And look at what Montana did vs the Niners.

Peyton was treated wrong and the Colts did make a mistake by going that low and he will make them pay.
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