WADA threatens to expel Jamaica -> Olympics -> drug testing


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Re: WADA threatens to expel Jamaica -> Olympics -> drug test

Postby gibson » Thu Aug 22, 2013 9:16 pm

ban jamaica now, and let them in when they comply.

also, since jamaican athletes were not tested according to requirements, then the results at the world championships are not valid. i.e. if you miss the tests you get banned. if the requirements for a wr are not in place - legit track, wind gauge, etc... the results are not official....

the entire team - jamaica - is a farce. the farce which is track and field. cheering and idol worshiping PED users. calculating and figuring our how so and so will do all based on false data.

get me outa here. i have had enough of these charades.
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Re: WADA threatens to expel Jamaica -> Olympics -> drug test

Postby JumboElliott » Thu Aug 22, 2013 9:32 pm

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Re: WADA threatens to expel Jamaica -> Olympics -> drug test

Postby Gabriella » Thu Aug 22, 2013 11:55 pm

What would be seen as an appropriate number of tests for JADCO to carry out? Does WADA publish or provide guidelines on the number of tests it expects? Should it not be the case that if you have x number of athletes in the worlds top y, you are expected to carry out z number of tests or something?

I think any realist can see that there is a problem in Jamaica. There is a problem in India and Russia too, but on the one hand they appear to be carrying out tests and catching their athletes. However, I would still raise a :?: over Russia's committment to catch it's cheats, just as I would with Jamaica.

But then there is still a problem in the US. With Gay going down, apparently with steroids, thats all 3 of their champions since Maurece Green failing tests (Montgomery, Gatlin & now Gay). We may not have seen any female sprint queens going down since 03 (although every winner from 97 to 03 failed a test) but judging by the men's busts it's probably not great on the womens side either.

So, there is a problem with doping, and it happens in many countries, not just Jamaica. But Is Jamaica fighting it as much as the US and other countries? Probably not.
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Re: WADA threatens to expel Jamaica -> Olympics -> drug test

Postby eldanielfire » Fri Aug 23, 2013 12:00 am

Pego wrote:
eldanielfire wrote:To be honest Both Blake and SAFP have been banned previously


Yes, they were, for their own actions. But banned from the Olympics, by far the biggest show on the planet because WADA does not approve how their federation does business? I won't believe that for a second.


Yes and if a big federation doping ban comes up the focus on their records will automatically shrink their names influence on the matter. Any argument using with athlete to stop doping bans would sway opinion against them.
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Re: WADA threatens to expel Jamaica -> Olympics -> drug test

Postby shivfan » Fri Aug 23, 2013 4:13 am

"In highlighting the fact that it has been doing its job, JADCO's statement said there has been a steady increase in the number of In-Competition and Out-of- Competition tests conducted locally. JADCO said it carried out 504 In-competition and 372 Out-of-competition tests in the four-year period between May 2009 and July 2013. JADCO was formed in 2008."

http://jamaica-gleaner.com/gleaner/2013 ... rts21.html

Again, I don't have a problem with these figures, for an under-staffed, under-funded developing country, which currently owes so much debt to the IMF that the entire GDP is used on debt-servicing....

If WADA want to see more out-of-competition testing taking place, they need to put their money where their mouth is, and fund bodies like JADCO themselves.

I wonder what the out-of-competition testing figures are for Kenya and Ethiopia....
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Re: WADA threatens to expel Jamaica -> Olympics -> drug test

Postby shivfan » Fri Aug 23, 2013 4:19 am

gibson wrote:ban jamaica now, and let them in when they comply.

also, since jamaican athletes were not tested according to requirements, then the results at the world championships are not valid. i.e. if you miss the tests you get banned. if the requirements for a wr are not in place - legit track, wind gauge, etc... the results are not official....

the entire team - jamaica - is a farce. the farce which is track and field. cheering and idol worshiping PED users. calculating and figuring our how so and so will do all based on false data.

get me outa here. i have had enough of these charades.

:roll:
using your same knee-jerk logic, ban the US now, for Tyson Gay using a steroid....

I would be careful about accepted the sole word of a disgruntled employee who left the organisation, when she was asked to step down following complaints from staff members, and after a well-known open shouting match, during which she threatened to get her own back...after a silence of about six months, now we see what she meant.

You have to hear both sides of the story, and then draw your conclusions...remember, this writer has her own axe to grind.
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Re: WADA threatens to expel Jamaica -> Olympics -> drug test

Postby toyracer » Fri Aug 23, 2013 5:48 am

gibson wrote:ban jamaica now, and let them in when they comply.

also, since jamaican athletes were not tested according to requirements, then the results at the world championships are not valid. i.e. if you miss the tests you get banned. if the requirements for a wr are not in place - legit track, wind gauge, etc... the results are not official....

the entire team - jamaica - is a farce. the farce which is track and field. cheering and idol worshiping PED users. calculating and figuring our how so and so will do all based on false data.

get me outa here. i have had enough of these charades.


What exactly are the requirements you speak of, the ones they breached that should result in the country being banned?

2012 test figures invalidate the 2013 World Championships? So the marked increase in testing in 2013 is to be totally ignored? Just wipe out the 2013 WC results entirely, based on 2012?

What about the IAAF's own 2012 out-of-competition figures for Jamaican athletes? Shouldn't they be taken into consideration? Without JADCO the IAAF still tested 37 Jamaicans out-of-competition. That counts for nothing?

I am not for an instant saying that the JADCO test figures for 2012 were adequate. I wish they were higher, I wish they were defensible. However there is nothing that can be done about 2012 now. It is past. Done. Gone. Unchangeable. The big fuss being made about the article and report ignores the facts that action has already been taken, that remedies are already in place and are working. JADCO has already addressed the deficiencies of 2013 and have vastly stepped up their testing in 2013. They have provided some of those figures already but of course a full report cannot be released until the year is over.
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Re: WADA threatens to expel Jamaica -> Olympics -> drug test

Postby DentyCracker » Fri Aug 23, 2013 6:37 am

The idiocy of some of these posters is frightening
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Re: WADA threatens to expel Jamaica -> Olympics -> drug test

Postby shivfan » Fri Aug 23, 2013 6:58 am

"The statement also pointed out that there has been a steady increase in the number of in-Competition and Out-of- Competition tests conducted by JADCO. It said a total of 504 in competition tests and 372 out of competition tests have been done since May 2009 to July this year, bringing the total tests done during that period to 876. The statement also explained that the reduction in tests done in the 2011/12 financial year was largely due to the unavailability of resources."

http://jamaica-gleaner.com/latest/article.php?id=47428
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Re: WADA threatens to expel Jamaica -> Olympics -> drug test

Postby dustoff » Fri Aug 23, 2013 8:11 am

shivfan wrote:"The statement also pointed out that there has been a steady increase in the number of in-Competition and Out-of- Competition tests conducted by JADCO. It said a total of 504 in competition tests and 372 out of competition tests have been done since May 2009 to July this year, bringing the total tests done during that period to 876. The statement also explained that the reduction in tests done in the 2011/12 financial year was largely due to the unavailability of resources."

http://jamaica-gleaner.com/latest/article.php?id=47428


You realize that is essentially nothing, right? According to their own figures, only about half are even track and field related, so you are talking about not even 1 OOC test per athlete of WC/OG copetitors.

Jamaicans here are frighteningly delusional.

And what is this BS about underfunded? With >$600k, they performed just over 100 piss tests. I could get 10x that number done for under $100k.
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Re: WADA threatens to expel Jamaica -> Olympics -> drug test

Postby toyracer » Fri Aug 23, 2013 10:48 am

dustoff wrote:And what is this BS about underfunded? With >$600k, they performed just over 100 piss tests. I could get 10x that number done for under $100k.


That's not how it works. And, for the calendar year 2012 it was 179 tests not the 106 as was first reported.

The 2011 JADCO budget was US$62,000. That's it. The documentation is available here http://www.mof.gov.jm/sites/default/fil ... 1500-1.pdf on page 22 of the Jamaica budget. (The figures there are expressed in J$M and the exchange rate is roughly 100:1). That had to pay staff salary, utilities plus tests etc. (Appeals etc were separately funded.) It is important to keep in mind that their Financial Year does not correspond to the Calendar Year. That budget started in April 2011 and ended March 2012 (it is more realistic to say May to April because of the actual disbursement of funds). Right away it can be understood why so few tests were conducted at the end of their 2011 Financial Year; they didn't have the funding, they had simply ran out. Extremely bad planning on the part of the government and the ministry responsible.

The 2012 JADCO budget was much better; US$550,000. As soon as that kicked in the number of tests increased. I'd imagine they could pay some bills too, because with only US$62,000 in the previous year they must have owed a lot of money somewhere. And the 2013 budget has also been increased, with corresponding increase in tests conducted already being reported.

JADCO has to be cleansed. Get a proper administrator, not a doctor figure head. Keeping records is a simple task, not rocket science.
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Re: WADA threatens to expel Jamaica -> Olympics -> drug test

Postby ehop101 » Fri Aug 23, 2013 10:53 am

gibson wrote:ban jamaica now, and let them in when they comply.

also, since jamaican athletes were not tested according to requirements, then the results at the world championships are not valid. i.e. if you miss the tests you get banned. if the requirements for a wr are not in place - legit track, wind gauge, etc... the results are not official....

the entire team - jamaica - is a farce. the farce which is track and field. cheering and idol worshiping PED users. calculating and figuring our how so and so will do all based on false data.

get me outa here. i have had enough of these charades.


I couldn't have said it better........I am done. Track and field has become a complete joke. Tyson Gay made a fool out of me and now we have this Jamican farce of a track team fooling the pubic. I'm done.
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Re: WADA threatens to expel Jamaica -> Olympics -> drug test

Postby beebee » Fri Aug 23, 2013 10:59 am

ehop101 wrote:
gibson wrote:ban jamaica now, and let them in when they comply.

also, since jamaican athletes were not tested according to requirements, then the results at the world championships are not valid. i.e. if you miss the tests you get banned. if the requirements for a wr are not in place - legit track, wind gauge, etc... the results are not official....

the entire team - jamaica - is a farce. the farce which is track and field. cheering and idol worshiping PED users. calculating and figuring our how so and so will do all based on false data.

get me outa here. i have had enough of these charades.


I couldn't have said it better........I am done. Track and field has become a complete joke. Tyson Gay made a fool out of me and now we have this Jamican farce of a track team fooling the pubic. I'm done.




I too am nearly done. What a terrible year for track and field.

The only thing that stops me from totally giving up is that I know some are innocent and clean.
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Re: WADA threatens to expel Jamaica -> Olympics -> drug test

Postby ehop101 » Fri Aug 23, 2013 11:04 am

beebee wrote:
ehop101 wrote:
gibson wrote:ban jamaica now, and let them in when they comply.

also, since jamaican athletes were not tested according to requirements, then the results at the world championships are not valid. i.e. if you miss the tests you get banned. if the requirements for a wr are not in place - legit track, wind gauge, etc... the results are not official....

the entire team - jamaica - is a farce. the farce which is track and field. cheering and idol worshiping PED users. calculating and figuring our how so and so will do all based on false data.

get me outa here. i have had enough of these charades.


I couldn't have said it better........I am done. Track and field has become a complete joke. Tyson Gay made a fool out of me and now we have this Jamican farce of a track team fooling the pubic. I'm done.




I too am nearly done. What a terrible year for track and field.

The only thing that stops me from totally giving up is that I know some are innocent and clean.


Tyson Gay was a hero of mine. As a former sprinter I believed in him. He seemed like such a nice guy....A guy who did it the right way. Now I found out it was a steroid!!! I'm like wow!!! YOU can''t believe anythng you see anymore...........It's sad.
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Re: WADA threatens to expel Jamaica -> Olympics -> drug test

Postby JWiz » Fri Aug 23, 2013 11:07 am

Well hurry up and leave, you and jerkham will have a wonderful time. Hell, jamboy would love to help you pack. :lol:

Jamaica has a serious problem, but it also brings out the trolls who would love nothing better than see it's demise, rather than debate solutions. Look at all the wild speculation in this thread already.
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Re: WADA threatens to expel Jamaica -> Olympics -> drug test

Postby dustoff » Fri Aug 23, 2013 11:31 am

JWiz wrote:Well hurry up and leave, you and jerkham will have a wonderful time. Hell, jamboy would love to help you pack. :lol:

Jamaica has a serious problem, but it also brings out the trolls who would love nothing better than see it's demise, rather than debate solutions. Look at all the wild speculation in this thread already.


The solution is simple. Mandatory regular blood & urine tests in the off-season by a 3rd party. JADCO is not a 3rd party since the leaders are also leaders of the track team itself.

They are wasting money, not testing athletes. Testing is quite cheap, contrary to popular belief. The main athletes train in 2 camps in major cities on the island. There isn't some substantial travel budget needed and you could do all of them the same day.

That is what needs to be done. It could easily be done in their current budget, but they choose to not do so.

With there budget, you could get into the many thousands of tests, yet people here are bragging about having under 200 total tests, in all Olympic sports.
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Re: WADA threatens to expel Jamaica -> Olympics -> drug test

Postby toyracer » Fri Aug 23, 2013 12:11 pm

gibson wrote:ban jamaica now, and let them in when they comply.

also, since jamaican athletes were not tested according to requirements


Comply with what exactly? What are the actual requirements? What is the standard amount for tests per athlete?

I believe that is a part of the problem; there is no standard amount dictated by WADA/IAAF, and there should be.

dustoff wrote:With there budget, you could get into the many thousands of tests, yet people here are bragging about having under 200 total tests, in all Olympic sports.


With their total budget of US$62,000 for 2011-2012 what was a reasonable amount of tests to expect? Keep in mind that the budget has to pay salaries and all expenses associated with maintaing an office etc.
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Re: WADA threatens to expel Jamaica -> Olympics -> drug test

Postby JumboElliott » Fri Aug 23, 2013 2:43 pm

If they were that hamstrung, they should have reached out to WADA for help.

There is also a prevailing sentiment of "This doesn't happen here" in comments by JADCO officials that does not exist in other authorities, despite clear evidence to the contrary.
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Re: WADA threatens to expel Jamaica -> Olympics -> drug test

Postby dustoff » Fri Aug 23, 2013 4:09 pm

toyracer wrote:With their total budget of US$62,000 for 2011-2012 what was a reasonable amount of tests to expect? Keep in mind that the budget has to pay salaries and all expenses associated with maintaing an office etc.


What salaries? They aren't doing their job in the first place! That is exactly the problem. it currently exists as a way to line the pockets of officials, not to police the athletes.

Their total budget was OVER $600k, not $62k. Get real.

I could take a paltry salary of $100k and commission at least 2,500 independent blood tests, easily. I would even have enough to maintain a website with results from each athlete. EASILY. I am probably lowballing the number. It might be closer to 5,000 tests, half blood half urine.
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Re: WADA threatens to expel Jamaica -> Olympics -> drug test

Postby toyracer » Fri Aug 23, 2013 6:17 pm

dustoff wrote:
toyracer wrote:With their total budget of US$62,000 for 2011-2012 what was a reasonable amount of tests to expect? Keep in mind that the budget has to pay salaries and all expenses associated with maintaing an office etc.


What salaries? They aren't doing their job in the first place! That is exactly the problem. it currently exists as a way to line the pockets of officials, not to police the athletes.

Their total budget was OVER $600k, not $62k. Get real.

I could take a paltry salary of $100k and commission at least 2,500 independent blood tests, easily. I would even have enough to maintain a website with results from each athlete. EASILY. I am probably lowballing the number. It might be closer to 5,000 tests, half blood half urine.


No, you get real. Go to the link I provided in my post. It is the official budget of the Government of Jamaica, and shows the amount allocated for every program and agency funded by the government. For the Financial Year year Apr 2011/ Mar 2012 the amount allocated for JADCO was J$6,238,000.00 which is US$62,000. Here again is the link http://www.mof.gov.jm/sites/default/fil ... 1500-1.pdf I suggest you check page 22 of the document for yourself since you didn't believe me the first time.

You don't expect people to collect salaries? Again, you get real. Yes, I agree that they were not doing a good job but that doesn't stop anyone in any government agency from collecting a salary, including the lady that wrote the SI article. Your "paltry sum" salary of US$100,000 is J$10,000,000.00, representing 40% more than the entire 2011/2012 budget of JADCO. And you propose to do 2,500 WADA-standard urine tests for US$100,000? That's US$40 each. Which WADA approved test kit and lab test do you now of for just US$40? The per kit shipping from Jamaica to Canada is more than that. And you say I should get real? Come on.

Please remember; I want to see JADCO do better. I want a defensible position whenever anyone raises a question of doubt. But at the same time I am cognizant of the economic reality that JADCO has been dealing with. The good thing is that this is the past that we are discussing. The present is much better. The total figures for Jan to July 2013 is 262 tests, 99 being OOC, a marked improvement.
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Re: WADA threatens to expel Jamaica -> Olympics -> drug test

Postby betterthanb4 » Fri Aug 23, 2013 6:31 pm

toyracer wrote:
dustoff wrote:
toyracer wrote:With their total budget of US$62,000 for 2011-2012 what was a reasonable amount of tests to expect? Keep in mind that the budget has to pay salaries and all expenses associated with maintaing an office etc.


What salaries? They aren't doing their job in the first place! That is exactly the problem. it currently exists as a way to line the pockets of officials, not to police the athletes.

Their total budget was OVER $600k, not $62k. Get real.

I could take a paltry salary of $100k and commission at least 2,500 independent blood tests, easily. I would even have enough to maintain a website with results from each athlete. EASILY. I am probably lowballing the number. It might be closer to 5,000 tests, half blood half urine.


No, you get real. Go to the link I provided in my post. It is the official budget of the Government of Jamaica, and shows the amount allocated for every program and agency funded by the government. For the Financial Year year Apr 2011/ Mar 2012 the amount allocated for JADCO was J$6,238,000.00 which is US$62,000. Here again is the link http://www.mof.gov.jm/sites/default/fil ... 1500-1.pdf I suggest you check page 22 of the document for yourself since you didn't believe me the first time.

You don't expect people to collect salaries? Again, you get real. Yes, I agree that they were not doing a good job but that doesn't stop anyone in any government agency from collecting a salary, including the lady that wrote the SI article. Your "paltry sum" salary of US$100,000 is J$10,000,000.00, representing 40% more than the entire 2011/2012 budget of JADCO. And you propose to do 2,500 WADA-standard urine tests for US$100,000? That's US$40 each. Which WADA approved test kit and lab test do you now of for just US$40? The per kit shipping from Jamaica to Canada is more than that. And you say I should get real? Come on.

Please remember; I want to see JADCO do better. I want a defensible position whenever anyone raises a question of doubt. But at the same time I am cognizant of the economic reality that JADCO has been dealing with. The good thing is that this is the past that we are discussing. The present is much better. The total figures for Jan to July 2013 is 262 tests, 99 being OOC, a marked improvement.


Wow. Thanks for the Info.
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Re: WADA threatens to expel Jamaica -> Olympics -> drug test

Postby dustoff » Fri Aug 23, 2013 10:15 pm

This has been discussed ad naseum and their budget posted. You are posting false information and ought to be banned for such continued nonsense.
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Re: WADA threatens to expel Jamaica -> Olympics -> drug test

Postby shivfan » Sat Aug 24, 2013 12:54 am

It seems that Anne Shirley was motivated by revenge, after being asked to resign from her job, because she's twisted stats to suit her purpose. Here's some more accurate figures with regards to out-of-competition testing:

Number of Tests Conducted by JADCO from May 2009-June 2013



In-Competition

Out-of-Competition

Total

2009(May-December)

117 In-Competition

20 Out-of-Competition

137

2010

24 In-Competition

103 Out-of-Competition

127

2011

91 In-Competition

80 Out-of-Competition

171

2012

108 In-Competition

71 Out-of-Competition

179

2013(January-June)

164 In-Competition

82 Out-of-Competition

246

http://www.jis.gov.jm/news/list/34846

Those are satisfactory figures, in my books, for a developing country....

If WADA want those figures to increase, it's about bloody time they started funding JADCO themselves!

504 total in-ompetition

356 total out of competition

860 total

This story is taken from a press release sent out on Aug 14. I have a copy of that release in my hand, as I type this.

If I can get this release, it makes me wonder why Sports Illustrated and the Daily Telegraph couldn't do the same. Just goes to show that I'm probably a more objective, less biased journalist than those amateurs who work at Sports Illustrated and the Daily Telegraph.
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Re: WADA threatens to expel Jamaica -> Olympics -> drug test

Postby toyracer » Sat Aug 24, 2013 5:15 am

dustoff wrote:This has been discussed ad naseum and their budget posted. You are posting false information and ought to be banned for such continued nonsense.


Excuse me? I challenge you to show where I have posted any false information. I have directly referenced the official budget document of the government of Jamaica. It is irrefutable. Perhaps you are not familiar with the nuances of currency exchange, where ~J$100 = US$1. Or perhaps you are confused in regard to the difference between a Financial Year and a Calendar year. Or perhaps you just do not wish to admit to being wrong in this instance. Whatever the case my challenge stands; show where I have posted any false information. And while you are at it you can also let us know how to get 2,500 tests done at a WADA accredited laboratory for the sum of $100,000 as you claim is possible.
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Re: WADA threatens to expel Jamaica -> Olympics -> drug test

Postby dustoff » Sat Aug 24, 2013 7:33 am

You need to be banned.

The document you yourself posted shows a budget of over half a million USD and other grants that are also used. Additionally, JADCO's funding is not entirely from the Jamaican government.

http://www.iol.co.za/sport/more-sport/j ... hjR_ZK1Fsm

Seriously, quit posting such blatantly false information.

And use google to find out the costs of a test. You can do a urine test yourself for steroids for <$150. Obviously, someone doing them in large bulk (more than 100 tests) or you know, buying the equipment themselves and setting up the lab, is much, much cheaper than that.
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Re: WADA threatens to expel Jamaica -> Olympics -> drug test

Postby Kav » Sat Aug 24, 2013 8:36 am

dustoff wrote:You need to be banned.

The document you yourself posted shows a budget of over half a million USD and other grants that are also used. Additionally, JADCO's funding is not entirely from the Jamaican government.

http://www.iol.co.za/sport/more-sport/j ... hjR_ZK1Fsm

Seriously, quit posting such blatantly false information.

And use google to find out the costs of a test. You can do a urine test yourself for steroids for <$150. Obviously, someone doing them in large bulk (more than 100 tests) or you know, buying the equipment themselves and setting up the lab, is much, much cheaper than that.

On the contrary you are the one who should be banned with a very disingenuous argument.

Let us use the facts shall we, as toyracer posted the budget of roughly $62,000 USD is for the period of 2011-2012.

The material you quoted also highlighted that their present budget for the year 2013-2014 is currently $600,000 USD. That is a major growth.

Your agument is that they should have conducted more test in 2011-2012 yet you are using the current budget as a marker for their ability to do so, when the facts are clear they had no such financial resources. In short you are lying and making stuff up to fit your argument. Finally as Shivfan posted if you bothered to read, the figures quoted in SI are false. So i suggest like others you go and do some research before spouting nonsense on public internet forums.

I made sure i waited before i jumped into this discussion as it was clear that the information released by Si was erroneous. Further more as stated by others the figures of Jadco represent only a portion of the testing done, WADA has their own figures as well. I think with some prudence and a level head this discussion could be more productive, instead of the vitriol i see here.
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Re: WADA threatens to expel Jamaica -> Olympics -> drug test

Postby toyracer » Sat Aug 24, 2013 8:41 am

dustoff; let me get this straight; you are trying to refute the actual Government of Jamaica budget document, using an online South African news article?

You are either being wilfully ignorant or do not know how to interpret a budget document. I will give you the benefit of the doubt and presume it is the latter.

This official government document (which is simply an update of the one I liked to earlier): http://www.mof.gov.jm/sites/default/fil ... 00-1_0.pdf

gives these figures on page 21 (and detailed on page 23):

JADCO April 2011 to March 2012 Financial Year funding = J$6,238,000 = US$62,000

JADCO April 2012 to March 2013 Financial Year funding = J$55,816,000 = US$550,000

JADCO April 2013 to March 2014 budget = J$63,410,000 = US$630,000

The amounts for Hearings and Appeals as well as the WADA membership grant are specific line items that are separate from the operating budget of JADCO, and are duly noted as such.

It is very important to note that in 2012 the national budget was presented late, in May instead of April http://www.jamaicaobserver.com/news/Bud ... y_11433508 . This is important because with the budget presented in Parliament in May (in a debate that lasts for weeks) actual disbursement doesn't occur until June at the very earliest. Not coincidentally, when the increased 2012-2013 money kicked in there was a corresponding increase in tests, both in-competition and out-of-competition.

The period in question in the SI article, especially the time of the noted absent Out-Of-Competition tests falls within the end of the 2011 Financial Year when there was little money to begin with and the beginning of the 2012 Financial year when there is a time lag for fund disbursement and procurement of testing kits etc. It really isn't difficult to follow.

Again, I challenge you to show an official document that can refute the Government of Jamaica sources I have cited.

And, forget what I can do a urine test for in a local lab. That doesn't work for the IAAF. You must be aware of this. It has to be a WADA accredited lab, and there are not many of those. I'm not going to "use google"; you are the one that said that you could get 2,500 tests done for $100,000 so please, for the education of us all, name the WADA accredited lab that will do such a test, which is not just for steroids but also other compounds, for the sum of $40 per test, including the test kit itself and shipping from Jamaica to the lab. That was your claim, not mine. You back it up.
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Re: WADA threatens to expel Jamaica -> Olympics -> drug test

Postby dustoff » Sat Aug 24, 2013 8:50 am

Kav wrote:
Let us use the facts shall we, as toyracer posted the budget of roughly $62,000 USD is for the period of 2011-2012.
False. The link he posted has a budget of over half a million for 2012-2013.

Your agument is that they should have conducted more test in 2011-2012 yet you are using the current budget as a marker for their ability to do so, when the facts are clear they had no such financial resources. In short you are lying and making stuff up to fit your argument. Finally as Shivfan posted if you bothered to read, the figures quoted in SI are false. So i suggest like others you go and do some research before spouting nonsense on public internet forums.

I made sure i waited before i jumped into this discussion as it was clear that the information released by Si was erroneous. Further more as stated by others the figures of Jadco represent only a portion of the testing done, WADA has their own figures as well. I think with some prudence and a level head this discussion could be more productive, instead of the vitriol i see here.


Vitriol? We have a modern day East Germany with anti-doping officials being the team doctors, literally a page out of the book of East Germany, guys and girls dropping absurd times after decades of mediocrity--with the exact same coaches and facilities mind you, and you think this is vitriol?

Boy, do I wait for the day 10-20 years from now when the extent of all this doping is made public.
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Re: WADA threatens to expel Jamaica -> Olympics -> drug test

Postby Kav » Sat Aug 24, 2013 8:54 am

Once again i suggest you go back to the ministry of finance website and look at what they have your figures for 2011-2012 are incorrect. WHICH IN EFFECT MAKES YOUR POINT MOOT.
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Re: WADA threatens to expel Jamaica -> Olympics -> drug test

Postby toyracer » Sat Aug 24, 2013 9:33 am

dustoff wrote:
Kav wrote:
Let us use the facts shall we, as toyracer posted the budget of roughly $62,000 USD is for the period of 2011-2012.
False. The link he posted has a budget of over half a million for 2012-2013.


dustoff, you cannot say that the 2011-2012 figures are false when using the 2012-2013 figures for reference. That's nonsense.

I have provided and outlined the source and exact figures for JADCO's budget for its last three Financial years. Those are irrefutable facts from an official Government of Jamaica document on the Government of Jamaica website.

It's now clear: you have no understanding of the differences between a Financial Year and a Calendar Year. The two do not start at the same date (i.e. January 1). And you are also clearly ignoring the fact that the 2011 Financial Year was itself extended by the Jamaican Government's late presentation of the 2012-2013 Budget in early May 2012. You cannot say that the 2012-2013 budget was over a half million dollars and suggest that somehow the lack of tests in the early months of 2012 prior to the actual 2012-2013 funding are somehow a shortfall of the following 2012-2013 budget. Were they to get the half million and go back in time to test?

Still waiting to hear how a test kit and test at a WADA accredited lab can be done for $40, as per your assertion.
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Re: WADA threatens to expel Jamaica -> Olympics -> drug test

Postby dustoff » Sat Aug 24, 2013 10:16 am

In bulk, it can easily be done for $40. Redwood Toxicology has a WADA used a WADA approved lab and an individual can get a test done for under $150. Literally, you are too stupid to do a google search. This is pointless.

You also seem to have the idea that JADCO is entirely funded by the government of Jamaica, which we know to be false. This is getting beyond silly.
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Re: WADA threatens to expel Jamaica -> Olympics -> drug test

Postby toyracer » Sat Aug 24, 2013 11:09 am

dustoff wrote:In bulk, it can easily be done for $40. Redwood Toxicology has a WADA used a WADA approved lab and an individual can get a test done for under $150. Literally, you are too stupid to do a google search. This is pointless.

You also seem to have the idea that JADCO is entirely funded by the government of Jamaica, which we know to be false. This is getting beyond silly.


You've resorted to name calling. Nice. Very grown up of you.

I actually do know how to use Google. Perhaps you do not, since you cited Redwood Toxicology as an example of where someone could get a WADA approved test done. Contrary to what you may believe, Redwood Toxicology is not WADA accredited. There are only two WADA accredited testing labs in the USA: UCLA Olympic Analytical Laboratory and The Sports Medicine Research and Testing Laboratory (SMRTL). That can be verified at http://wada-ama.org/Documents/Science_M ... ies_EN.pdf

Redwood Toxicology claiming that it "developed a comprehensive and affordable steroid panel that is comparable to WADA" does not automatically mean that any of its test results are acceptable to WADA or the IAAF. In fact, without accreditation from WADA such a claim means nothing. There are only 33 WADA accredited labs in the world and theirs are the only test results that matter to WADA or the IAAF. So whatever amount Redwood Toxicology may charge for their test is irrelevant because WADA would not accept it.

So please, try again to substantiate your claim that a test kit and WADA approved test can all be had for $40, and don't forget the shipping charges from Jamaica.

Additionally, please show where JADCO is getting extra non-Government funds for testing purposes from. The UNESCO funding it received in the past for anti-doping symposiums does not count; that was for specific education purposes, not testing. Even the lady who wrote the SI article referred to JADCO being government funded http://jamaica-gleaner.com/gleaner/2013 ... ters1.html when she first surafced a few weeks ago. The source of funding for JADCO was clearly documented when it started, references can be read here http://issuu.com/jadco/docs/jadco_wada_ ... 12_digital (page i) and here http://www.chat-bout.net/content/view/876/ (end of page) . And it is no coincidence that the level of funding JADCO is reporting is identical to that which is contained in the official Government of Jamaica budget document.

So, please, show me where I have presented false information. The ironic thing is that I can (and did) produce evidence to verify every claim that I have made, while you resort to name calling and side stepping verifying your claims and in the one instance so far have been, at best, wrong.
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Re: WADA threatens to expel Jamaica -> Olympics -> drug test

Postby JWiz » Sat Aug 24, 2013 12:34 pm

@toyracer. Don't waste your time. There's no cure for stupid. dusty has an axe to grind and facts won't stop him.
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Re: WADA threatens to expel Jamaica -> Olympics -> drug test

Postby JumboElliott » Sat Aug 24, 2013 12:41 pm

I won't take JADCo seriously until they have a website.
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Re: WADA threatens to expel Jamaica -> Olympics -> drug test

Postby dustoff » Sat Aug 24, 2013 4:19 pm

Redwood Toxicology uses multiple labs listed. Are you that clueless? Not to mention, the wacky idea that, I don't know, Jamaica could much more cost effectively set-up their own lab and reduce their long-term costs dramatically.

Pretty much every Jamaican that posts in these threads is delusional.

Tough to take a group seriously that thinks anything less than a thousand tests is sufficient and, I don't know, having a truly independent group doing the testing like every other non-3rd world country.
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Re: WADA threatens to expel Jamaica -> Olympics -> drug test

Postby toyracer » Sat Aug 24, 2013 5:48 pm

dustoff wrote:Redwood Toxicology uses multiple labs listed. Are you that clueless? Not to mention, the wacky idea that, I don't know, Jamaica could much more cost effectively set-up their own lab and reduce their long-term costs dramatically.

Pretty much every Jamaican that posts in these threads is delusional.

Tough to take a group seriously that thinks anything less than a thousand tests is sufficient and, I don't know, having a truly independent group doing the testing like every other non-3rd world country.


Yet another name called. Again, very adult of you.

First of all, Redwood Toxicology prides itself on being an independent facility. Redwood Toxicology has its own lab, and its own version of steroid/sport testing but now you maintain that they farm out their work to other labs? So now you have one lab sending samples to other labs for testing. That makes sense to you? Don't you note that they don't offer WADA accredited testing, which they could list if they actually did farm out to a WADA accredited lab like you seem to be insinuating now? And why would anyone go through a process like that? Why not just send it to the WADA accredited lab in the first place? Just admit that the lab you tried to use as an example was in fact a bad example to use. Perhaps you google'd "wada" and "lab" and got a hit at Redwood but didn't read through all of the info. It happens.

Then you say you want a truly independent group doing the testing but want Jamaica to set up its own lab. Don't you think that if that were done the voices citing collusion and influence would be louder? You yourself seem very unhappy that Jamaicans collect the samples and send them to an independent laboratory in Canada; how happy would you be if Jamaicans collected the samples and tested them in a laboratory in Jamaica?

I am in no group. I have never said that I am happy with the amount of tests, so please do not lump me into whatever group you feel like. I've stated the opposite; I'm not happy with what has been happening. I want a defensible position, and JADCO certainly has not given that to me. However, they are improving, as evidenced by the numbers they have released for 2013 thus far.
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Re: WADA threatens to expel Jamaica -> Olympics -> drug test

Postby donley2 » Sat Aug 24, 2013 6:49 pm

I have no intention of getting in the middle of this (often idiotic) conversation. But I do have to wonder why all the vitriol is directed at Jamaica and not at other countries like Kenya and Ethiopia. I realize per capita gdp makes them generally considered 3rd world, but there total gdp's are actually larger than Jamaicas.
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Re: WADA threatens to expel Jamaica -> Olympics -> drug test

Postby maroon » Sat Aug 24, 2013 7:58 pm

maroon wrote:dustoff -- i am really not inclined to engage with you given your clear lack of bona fides. but in response to your argument about the number of ooc tests -- you are aware that it says 4+, right? you are also aware that we are talking about the iaaf, who have proven history of busting their biggest athletes, right? if the iaaf"s testing is not good enough for you, please take it up with them and please make sure you indicate that whatever standard you require be applied to all 4+ athletes from all nations. finally can you please provide the "receipts" for your accusation that there is unlikely to be testing in the fall and winter?

why are you making stuff up when there are sufficient unflattering facts?


i assume it is poor form to quote oneself. but i see that 2 pages later, the last sentence is still relevant.
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Re: WADA threatens to expel Jamaica -> Olympics -> drug test

Postby Tuariki » Sun Aug 25, 2013 12:42 am

copied from my posting in Current Events "Doping Study 29% in World Champs"

Tuariki wrote:The following tables have been generated from the annual reports of USADA, Drug Free Sport and WADA plus the JADCO press statement. Hopefully my calculations are correct. Apologies if I have made mistakes in calculations.

USA = USADA - - - NZL = Drug Free Sport NZ - - - - JAM = JADCO
J11 is JADCO figures for 2011 - - - J12 is JADCO figures for 2012
Currency conversion rates as at 1 Jan 2012 from http://www.xe.com

Table 1: Annual revenue
- - - - - mill - - - - - US$ mill
USA - - US$ 14.0 - - - US$14.0
NZL - - NZ$ 2.70 - - - US$ 2.10
J11 - - JA$ 27.9 - - - US$ 0.32
J12 - - JA$ 55.8 - - - US$ 0.65

Table 2: Annual revenue pro rata to population - J11 as the base
- - - - - - - pop - - - US$ M - - US$ M - - - Actual v
- - - - - - - - - - - - - Actual - Pro rata - - Pro rata

USA - - - 316.7 - - - 14.0 - - - 34.8 - - - - 40%
NZL - - - 4.365 - - - 2.10 - - - 0.48 - - - - 437%
JAM - - - 2.910 - - - 0.32 - - - 0.32 - - - - 100%

Table 3: Annual revenue pro rata to population - J12 as the base
- - - - - - pop - - - - US$ M - - US$ M - - Actual v
- - - - - - - - - - - - - Actual - - Pro rata - Pro rata

USA - - - 316.7 - - - 14.0 - - - 70.7 - - - - 20%
NZL - - - 4.365 - - - 2.10 - - - 0.98 - - - - 214%
JAM - - - 2.910 - - - 0.65 - - - 0.65 - - - - 100%

Table 4: Total tests WADA 2012 pro rata population - JAM as the base
- - - - - - pop - - - WADA - - - Tests - - - Actual v
- - - - - - - - - - - - Actual - - -Pro rata - Pro rata

USA - - -316.7 - - - 4051- - - 11536- - - - 35%
NZL - - - 4.365 - - - 1210 - - - 159- - - - - 761%
JAM - - - 2.910 - - - 106 - - - - 106- - - - -100%

Table 5: TnF tests WADA 2012 pro rata population - JAM as the base
- - - - - - pop - - - Tests - - Tests - - - Actual v
- - - - - - - - - - - - Actual - Pro rata - - Pro rata

USA - - - 316.7 - - 1070 - - 6421 - - - - - 17%
NZL - - - 4.365 - - - 88 - - - 88 - - - - - 100%
JAM - - - 2.910 - - - 59 - - - 59 - - - - - 100%

Table 6: Total tests pro rata US$ revenue - J12 as the base
- - -- - - US$ - - - Tests - - Tests - - - Actual v
- - - - - - rev - - - Actual - Pro rata - - Pro rata

USA - - -14.0 - - - 4051 - - 2283 - - - - 177%
NZL - - - 2.10 - - - 1210 - - 342 - - - - - 354%
JAM - - -0.65 - - - 106 - - -106 - - - - - 100%

Table 7: TnF tests pro rata US$ revenue - J12 as the base
- - - - - - US$ - - - Tests - Tests - - - Actual v
- - - - - - rev - - - Actual - Pro rata - Pro rata

USA - - - 14.0 - - -1070 - - 1270 - - - -84%
NZL - - - 2.10 - - - 88 - - - 191 - - - - - 46%
JAM - - - 0.65 - - - 59 - - - 59 - - - - - 100%
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Re: WADA threatens to expel Jamaica -> Olympics -> drug test

Postby Tuariki » Sun Aug 25, 2013 12:44 am

Copied from my posting in Current Events" Doping Study 29% in World Champs"

Tuariki wrote:Observations

Table 1: Annual revenue
The actual revenues are converted to US$ at the exchange rate for 1 January 2012.

Table 2: Annual revenue pro rata to population - J11 as the base
The revenues are calculated in US$ on a population pro rata basis using the Jamaica 2011 revenue as the base.
It shows that Jamaican expenditure on a per capita is 2 ½ times that of the USA

Table 3: Annual revenue pro rata to population - J12 as the base

The revenues are calculated in US$ on a population pro rata basis using the Jamaica 2012 revenue as the base.
This table shows that Jamaican expenditure on a per capita is 5 times that of the USA

Table 4: Total tests WADA 2012 pro rata population - JAM as the base
These figures show the total number of tests reported by WADA for all sports conducted by the national authority
The figures are then pro rata’d based on population using Jamaica as the base.
This table shows that Jamaica total testing on a per capita is 3 times that of the USA

Table 5: TnF tests WADA 2012 pro rata population - JAM as the base
These figures show the total number of tests for TnF reported by WADA conducted by the national authority
The figures are then pro rata’d based on population using Jamaica as the base.
This table shows that Jamaica total testing on a per capita is 6 times that of the USA

Table 6: Total tests pro rata US$ revenue - J12 as the base
These figures show the total number of tests reported by WADA conducted by the national authority
The figures are then pro rata’d based on pro rata’d revenue using Jamaica 2012 revenue as the base.
This table shows that Jamaica total testing is about ½ that of the USA on a per capita $ basis

Table 7: TnF tests pro rata US$ revenue - J12 as the base
These figures show the total number of tests for TnF reported by WADA conducted by the national authority
The figures are then pro rata’d based on pro rata’d revenue using Jamaica 2012 revenue as the base.
This table shows that Jamaica total testing is a little about more than that of the USA on a per capita $ basis

The low %age figures for Jamaica, re Table 6 and Table 7, are probably a reflection of the low annual revenue compared to the high fixed costs for the organisation.
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