WADA threatens to expel Jamaica -> Olympics -> drug testing


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Re: WADA threatens to expel Jamaica -> Olympics -> drug test

Postby maroon » Thu Aug 22, 2013 8:36 am

apart from the misdirected "ad hominem", there is a huge gulf between asking questions and making accusations. in any case, your "questions" have been refuted.
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Re: WADA threatens to expel Jamaica -> Olympics -> drug test

Postby dustoff » Thu Aug 22, 2013 9:04 am

maroon wrote:apart from the misdirected "ad hominem", there is a huge gulf between asking questions and making accusations. in any case, your "questions" have been refuted.

lol where did I make an ad hominem? Please do post that.
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Re: WADA threatens to expel Jamaica -> Olympics -> drug test

Postby maroon » Thu Aug 22, 2013 9:22 am

dustoff -- i am really not inclined to engage with you given your clear lack of bona fides. but in response to your argument about the number of ooc tests -- you are aware that it says 4+, right? you are also aware that we are talking about the iaaf, who have proven history of busting their biggest athletes, right? if the iaaf"s testing is not good enough for you, please take it up with them and please make sure you indicate that whatever standard you require be applied to all 4+ athletes from all nations. finally can you please provide the "receipts" for your accusation that there is unlikely to be testing in the fall and winter?

why are you making stuff up when there are sufficient unflattering facts?
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Re: WADA threatens to expel Jamaica -> Olympics -> drug test

Postby toyracer » Thu Aug 22, 2013 9:36 am

beebee wrote:
Pego wrote:IOC will allow WADA to expel Bolt, Blake, SAFP... from the games? That's a good one :roll: .


Your Nation is a safe haven for off season drug use.


Oddly enough, that's when the out-of-competition tests were done, as shown in the table the author included in her article. She complained about the out-of-competition tests during the competitive season, specifically the period before the Olympics.

dustoff wrote:4x OOC is nothing, not to mention, this could simply mean while they were in Europe, which is when they are going to be clean anyway. The entire fall and winter when the Jamaicans are avoiding the indoor circuit in Europe and staying at home... well.... certainly unlikely to be any testing there.


Except for the fact that she listed the amount of tests for each individual month, which showed the OOC tests in fact occurring in the Fall/Winter. I presume you missed that section of her article.

Jamaica's Testing
Month In-Competition Out-of-Competition Total
January 0 0 0
February 0 10 10
March 0 0 0
April 0 1 1
May 15 0 15
June 81 0 81
July 0 0 0
August 0 16 16
September 0 18 18
October-November 7 14 21
December 5 12 17
TOTAL 108 71 179

So apparently not as unlikely as you think. In fact the numbers show that other than in June at the national trials the athletes are more likely to be tested in the Fall and Winter than any other time, contrary to what you assert.

It is also important to keep in mind that these are numbers for JADCO tests only. IAAF/WADA tests (both in and outside of Jamaica) are not listed, so the amount of IC and OOC tests is surely higher.

Got to love how she named Asafa as an example of "disaster" she claimed to be warning about and then goes on to highlight OOC testing before the London games, which completely ignores the fact that even if Asafa was using the same supplement/stimulant back then it is 100% WADA LEGAL in OOC tests.

By the way, the lady's numbers also highlight something that many seem to have missed; the 106 total tests reported a few weeks ago seem to be not accurate; she has documented 179.

The lady in question does not have the greatest record, but of course SI and its readers have no way of knowing that.
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Re: WADA threatens to expel Jamaica -> Olympics -> drug test

Postby dustoff » Thu Aug 22, 2013 10:35 am

0 OOC tests in January, March, May, June, and July and you are trying to claim they were actively testing?

Quit lying to yourself.
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Re: WADA threatens to expel Jamaica -> Olympics -> drug test

Postby JumboElliott » Thu Aug 22, 2013 10:45 am

I said in another thread that Dick Pound should be dispatched to run a provisional Jamaican anti-doping authority that is completely independent of the Jamaican government.

The Jamaican government has a conflict of interest as far as I'm concerned when it comes to testing the athletes because the success of people like Bolt is in the country's national interest.
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Re: WADA threatens to expel Jamaica -> Olympics -> drug test

Postby eldanielfire » Thu Aug 22, 2013 11:10 am

Pego wrote:IOC will allow WADA to expel Bolt, Blake, SAFP... from the games? That's a good one :roll: .


To be honest Both Blake and SAFP have been banned previously and there are plenty of big names to draw attention in their places. Bolt would be massive but the willingness to not sue him as a factor would set WADA reputation sky high for appearing incorruptible.

Also those athletes won't be round forever.
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Re: WADA threatens to expel Jamaica -> Olympics -> drug test

Postby toyracer » Thu Aug 22, 2013 11:33 am

dustoff wrote:0 OOC tests in January, March, May, June, and July and you are trying to claim they were actively testing?

Quit lying to yourself.


Excuse me, where did I say that? Please, show me where I made any such claim.

You however said it was unlikely that there would be any testing in fall and winter. I posted figures that show otherwise. That's all. I can't help it that you were wrong.

Just to be clear; I'd welcome more testing, much more. However I would also like to see figures that show total test figures for JADCO, IAAF and WADA combined. It cannot be difficult to generate a list of names and numbers.
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Re: WADA threatens to expel Jamaica -> Olympics -> drug test

Postby dustoff » Thu Aug 22, 2013 11:43 am

If there were 0 tests in January and March and with winter being Dec 21 to March 19, I am not really sure where you are getting this idea that they tested in the winter.
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Re: WADA threatens to expel Jamaica -> Olympics -> drug test

Postby JumboElliott » Thu Aug 22, 2013 11:45 am

I'm interested in knowing who was tested and how often.
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Re: WADA threatens to expel Jamaica -> Olympics -> drug test

Postby toyracer » Thu Aug 22, 2013 1:19 pm

dustoff wrote:If there were 0 tests in January and March and with winter being Dec 21 to March 19, I am not really sure where you are getting this idea that they tested in the winter.


Wasn't your assertion Fall and Winter? Or do you just want to side step the first bit now...

In any case, we agree that more testing is necessary. Plus better reporting of same. And someone needs to clean house at JADCO.
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Re: WADA threatens to expel Jamaica -> Olympics -> drug test

Postby dustoff » Thu Aug 22, 2013 1:28 pm

So you now concede there is essentially 0 testing done in the winter, great.

With regards to fall, there is no data on which sport the athletes are coming from in that testing. Even so, if ALL of those were track athletes (since less than half were, this is a generous assumption), it would barely cover 1 test per male athlete with the A-standard. Of course, the reality is that almost nobody got tested in the fall and literally nobody was tested in most of the winter.
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Re: WADA threatens to expel Jamaica -> Olympics -> drug test

Postby betterthanb4 » Thu Aug 22, 2013 1:36 pm

JADCo responds to drug-testing criticisms

http://go-jamaica.com/news/read_article.php?id=47414

"According to the local anti-doping authority, 860 tests were conducted during the period May 2009- June this year.

JADCo says in 2012, it conducted 179 tests of which 108 were in-competition and 71 out-of-competition.

JADCo began testing in 2009."
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Re: WADA threatens to expel Jamaica -> Olympics -> drug test

Postby Pego » Thu Aug 22, 2013 1:52 pm

eldanielfire wrote:To be honest Both Blake and SAFP have been banned previously


Yes, they were, for their own actions. But banned from the Olympics, by far the biggest show on the planet because WADA does not approve how their federation does business? I won't believe that for a second.
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Re: WADA threatens to expel Jamaica -> Olympics -> drug test

Postby skiboo » Thu Aug 22, 2013 2:34 pm

Well I will probably be banned for posting this but frankly I`d rather be frank`n`banned than to sit quietly on the sidelines. Where to start? Let`s see....Asafa Powell has been banned this year. Using approximately a 0.20 seconds advantage in the 100 meters thanks to PEDS, Asafa is ~ a 9.92 performer without drugs. Veronica Campbell Brown is ~ a 10.96 performer without drugs. Sherone Simpson is ~ an 11.02 performer without drugs. So, if SAFP is clean, she`d be running 10.50 with drugs, making her 0.46 faster than VCB (without drugs) Usain Bolt, if he is clean, would have run 9.38 with PEDS. Funny that Bolt would be 0.54 faster than the next fastest man (Powell). Funnier still that SAFP would be running ~ 0.46 faster than VCB, if one was using and the other was clean.

Yes, I realize that these are somewhat rough approximations, but if anyone has a better explanation to offer as to why Bolt and SAFP are so much better CLEAN than the drug assisted VCB, Powell, and Sherone Simpson are with their PEDS, feel free to offer up some commentary that makes sense.
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Re: WADA threatens to expel Jamaica -> Olympics -> drug test

Postby DentyCracker » Thu Aug 22, 2013 3:37 pm

because they are all clean perhaps
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Re: WADA threatens to expel Jamaica -> Olympics -> drug test

Postby maroon » Thu Aug 22, 2013 3:43 pm

DentyCracker wrote:because they are all clean perhaps


quoting because there is no like button.
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Re: WADA threatens to expel Jamaica -> Olympics -> drug test

Postby skiboo » Thu Aug 22, 2013 4:16 pm

DentyCracker wrote:because they are all clean perhaps


Yes, that is one possibility...sigh....there could be a bundle of false tests. :|
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Re: WADA threatens to expel Jamaica -> Olympics -> drug test

Postby dustoff » Thu Aug 22, 2013 5:39 pm

lol they don't need to test because Jamaicans are clean? The same country who had a whopping what, 1 or 2 sub 10 sprinters EVER before 2004 now has hordes of elites, including 4 guys sub 9.8, on both the men's and women's side and whose anti-doping head is also the TEAM DOCTOR!
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Re: WADA threatens to expel Jamaica -> Olympics -> drug test

Postby JumboElliott » Thu Aug 22, 2013 6:00 pm

I think that Jamaica has vastly improved its sporting infrastructure, which has led to this renaissance, but I also think that there eventually will be some pharmacological reasons uncovered for the sudden Jamaican dominance after no clean Jamaican male athlete had won an Olympic medal in the short sprints in 32 years until 2008 and then they win five of six in 2012.
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Re: WADA threatens to expel Jamaica -> Olympics -> drug test

Postby JWiz » Thu Aug 22, 2013 6:15 pm

I see the trolls have come from under the bridge. :roll:
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Re: WADA threatens to expel Jamaica -> Olympics -> drug test

Postby beebee » Thu Aug 22, 2013 6:32 pm

JWiz wrote:I see the trolls have come from under the bridge. :roll:



Grow up...there is a serious problem in Jamaica...zero off season drug testing in a nation that is one of track and field's world powers and a high percentage of it's world class athletes failing dope tests.

Jamaica's track program is very similar to a bank without guards or security cameras....and some folks are clearly stealing.
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Re: WADA threatens to expel Jamaica -> Olympics -> drug test

Postby toyracer » Thu Aug 22, 2013 6:55 pm

Yes, the JADCO figures are troubling, but it's important to remember that they are not the only entity that is testing Jamaican athletes.

In 2012 the IAAF conducted out-of-competition tests on 37 Jamaican athletes. They don't report the exact amount of tests, just a range; either 1-3 or 4+. If we use 2 as an average for those the IAAF list as 1-3 and use 4 for the 4+, we arrive at 88 OOC tests. I do wish that the IAAF reported the exact number for each athlete, it makes no sense for them to be so vague when dealing with something so important. Timing of the OOC tests would be good to know too but the important fact is that there were OOC tests conducted on the 37 athletes.

And, it's important to remember that the 2013 numbers are already better from JADCO. Ms Shirley focused on last year, which cannot be fixed now unless someone is good friends with HG Wells or Dr Emmett Brown.

I notice that one poster has condemned Asafa to a lifetime of PED usage, despite the fact that he tested positive for a stimulant that is itself 100% WADA legal OOC. Nice.
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Re: WADA threatens to expel Jamaica -> Olympics -> drug test

Postby dustoff » Thu Aug 22, 2013 7:41 pm

JumboElliott wrote:I think that Jamaica has vastly improved its sporting infrastructure, which has led to this renaissance, but I also think that there eventually will be some pharmacological reasons uncovered for the sudden Jamaican dominance after no clean Jamaican male athlete had won an Olympic medal in the short sprints in 32 years until 2008 and then they win five of six in 2012.


What infrastructure? They are training at the same gyms and the same grass fields as they have been for years. Have you seen the videos of the weightrooms they use? MVP was using rusty old weights from what looks like the 80s. If by infrastructure, you mean new doctors, then I would agree.
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Re: WADA threatens to expel Jamaica -> Olympics -> drug test

Postby dustoff » Thu Aug 22, 2013 7:44 pm

If these cats face what is essentially no OOC testing and still fail drug tests en masse in-competition, what do you think is going to happen if doping control was legitimately ramped up?

Again, until you a legitimate party in there that cares to test, this behavior is going to continue and you are going to see guys like Nesta Carter running 9.7 and getting medals.
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Re: WADA threatens to expel Jamaica -> Olympics -> drug test

Postby gibson » Thu Aug 22, 2013 9:16 pm

ban jamaica now, and let them in when they comply.

also, since jamaican athletes were not tested according to requirements, then the results at the world championships are not valid. i.e. if you miss the tests you get banned. if the requirements for a wr are not in place - legit track, wind gauge, etc... the results are not official....

the entire team - jamaica - is a farce. the farce which is track and field. cheering and idol worshiping PED users. calculating and figuring our how so and so will do all based on false data.

get me outa here. i have had enough of these charades.
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Re: WADA threatens to expel Jamaica -> Olympics -> drug test

Postby JumboElliott » Thu Aug 22, 2013 9:32 pm

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Re: WADA threatens to expel Jamaica -> Olympics -> drug test

Postby Gabriella » Thu Aug 22, 2013 11:55 pm

What would be seen as an appropriate number of tests for JADCO to carry out? Does WADA publish or provide guidelines on the number of tests it expects? Should it not be the case that if you have x number of athletes in the worlds top y, you are expected to carry out z number of tests or something?

I think any realist can see that there is a problem in Jamaica. There is a problem in India and Russia too, but on the one hand they appear to be carrying out tests and catching their athletes. However, I would still raise a :?: over Russia's committment to catch it's cheats, just as I would with Jamaica.

But then there is still a problem in the US. With Gay going down, apparently with steroids, thats all 3 of their champions since Maurece Green failing tests (Montgomery, Gatlin & now Gay). We may not have seen any female sprint queens going down since 03 (although every winner from 97 to 03 failed a test) but judging by the men's busts it's probably not great on the womens side either.

So, there is a problem with doping, and it happens in many countries, not just Jamaica. But Is Jamaica fighting it as much as the US and other countries? Probably not.
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Re: WADA threatens to expel Jamaica -> Olympics -> drug test

Postby eldanielfire » Fri Aug 23, 2013 12:00 am

Pego wrote:
eldanielfire wrote:To be honest Both Blake and SAFP have been banned previously


Yes, they were, for their own actions. But banned from the Olympics, by far the biggest show on the planet because WADA does not approve how their federation does business? I won't believe that for a second.


Yes and if a big federation doping ban comes up the focus on their records will automatically shrink their names influence on the matter. Any argument using with athlete to stop doping bans would sway opinion against them.
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Re: WADA threatens to expel Jamaica -> Olympics -> drug test

Postby shivfan » Fri Aug 23, 2013 4:13 am

"In highlighting the fact that it has been doing its job, JADCO's statement said there has been a steady increase in the number of In-Competition and Out-of- Competition tests conducted locally. JADCO said it carried out 504 In-competition and 372 Out-of-competition tests in the four-year period between May 2009 and July 2013. JADCO was formed in 2008."

http://jamaica-gleaner.com/gleaner/2013 ... rts21.html

Again, I don't have a problem with these figures, for an under-staffed, under-funded developing country, which currently owes so much debt to the IMF that the entire GDP is used on debt-servicing....

If WADA want to see more out-of-competition testing taking place, they need to put their money where their mouth is, and fund bodies like JADCO themselves.

I wonder what the out-of-competition testing figures are for Kenya and Ethiopia....
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Re: WADA threatens to expel Jamaica -> Olympics -> drug test

Postby shivfan » Fri Aug 23, 2013 4:19 am

gibson wrote:ban jamaica now, and let them in when they comply.

also, since jamaican athletes were not tested according to requirements, then the results at the world championships are not valid. i.e. if you miss the tests you get banned. if the requirements for a wr are not in place - legit track, wind gauge, etc... the results are not official....

the entire team - jamaica - is a farce. the farce which is track and field. cheering and idol worshiping PED users. calculating and figuring our how so and so will do all based on false data.

get me outa here. i have had enough of these charades.

:roll:
using your same knee-jerk logic, ban the US now, for Tyson Gay using a steroid....

I would be careful about accepted the sole word of a disgruntled employee who left the organisation, when she was asked to step down following complaints from staff members, and after a well-known open shouting match, during which she threatened to get her own back...after a silence of about six months, now we see what she meant.

You have to hear both sides of the story, and then draw your conclusions...remember, this writer has her own axe to grind.
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Re: WADA threatens to expel Jamaica -> Olympics -> drug test

Postby toyracer » Fri Aug 23, 2013 5:48 am

gibson wrote:ban jamaica now, and let them in when they comply.

also, since jamaican athletes were not tested according to requirements, then the results at the world championships are not valid. i.e. if you miss the tests you get banned. if the requirements for a wr are not in place - legit track, wind gauge, etc... the results are not official....

the entire team - jamaica - is a farce. the farce which is track and field. cheering and idol worshiping PED users. calculating and figuring our how so and so will do all based on false data.

get me outa here. i have had enough of these charades.


What exactly are the requirements you speak of, the ones they breached that should result in the country being banned?

2012 test figures invalidate the 2013 World Championships? So the marked increase in testing in 2013 is to be totally ignored? Just wipe out the 2013 WC results entirely, based on 2012?

What about the IAAF's own 2012 out-of-competition figures for Jamaican athletes? Shouldn't they be taken into consideration? Without JADCO the IAAF still tested 37 Jamaicans out-of-competition. That counts for nothing?

I am not for an instant saying that the JADCO test figures for 2012 were adequate. I wish they were higher, I wish they were defensible. However there is nothing that can be done about 2012 now. It is past. Done. Gone. Unchangeable. The big fuss being made about the article and report ignores the facts that action has already been taken, that remedies are already in place and are working. JADCO has already addressed the deficiencies of 2013 and have vastly stepped up their testing in 2013. They have provided some of those figures already but of course a full report cannot be released until the year is over.
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Re: WADA threatens to expel Jamaica -> Olympics -> drug test

Postby DentyCracker » Fri Aug 23, 2013 6:37 am

The idiocy of some of these posters is frightening
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Re: WADA threatens to expel Jamaica -> Olympics -> drug test

Postby shivfan » Fri Aug 23, 2013 6:58 am

"The statement also pointed out that there has been a steady increase in the number of in-Competition and Out-of- Competition tests conducted by JADCO. It said a total of 504 in competition tests and 372 out of competition tests have been done since May 2009 to July this year, bringing the total tests done during that period to 876. The statement also explained that the reduction in tests done in the 2011/12 financial year was largely due to the unavailability of resources."

http://jamaica-gleaner.com/latest/article.php?id=47428
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Re: WADA threatens to expel Jamaica -> Olympics -> drug test

Postby dustoff » Fri Aug 23, 2013 8:11 am

shivfan wrote:"The statement also pointed out that there has been a steady increase in the number of in-Competition and Out-of- Competition tests conducted by JADCO. It said a total of 504 in competition tests and 372 out of competition tests have been done since May 2009 to July this year, bringing the total tests done during that period to 876. The statement also explained that the reduction in tests done in the 2011/12 financial year was largely due to the unavailability of resources."

http://jamaica-gleaner.com/latest/article.php?id=47428


You realize that is essentially nothing, right? According to their own figures, only about half are even track and field related, so you are talking about not even 1 OOC test per athlete of WC/OG copetitors.

Jamaicans here are frighteningly delusional.

And what is this BS about underfunded? With >$600k, they performed just over 100 piss tests. I could get 10x that number done for under $100k.
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Re: WADA threatens to expel Jamaica -> Olympics -> drug test

Postby toyracer » Fri Aug 23, 2013 10:48 am

dustoff wrote:And what is this BS about underfunded? With >$600k, they performed just over 100 piss tests. I could get 10x that number done for under $100k.


That's not how it works. And, for the calendar year 2012 it was 179 tests not the 106 as was first reported.

The 2011 JADCO budget was US$62,000. That's it. The documentation is available here http://www.mof.gov.jm/sites/default/fil ... 1500-1.pdf on page 22 of the Jamaica budget. (The figures there are expressed in J$M and the exchange rate is roughly 100:1). That had to pay staff salary, utilities plus tests etc. (Appeals etc were separately funded.) It is important to keep in mind that their Financial Year does not correspond to the Calendar Year. That budget started in April 2011 and ended March 2012 (it is more realistic to say May to April because of the actual disbursement of funds). Right away it can be understood why so few tests were conducted at the end of their 2011 Financial Year; they didn't have the funding, they had simply ran out. Extremely bad planning on the part of the government and the ministry responsible.

The 2012 JADCO budget was much better; US$550,000. As soon as that kicked in the number of tests increased. I'd imagine they could pay some bills too, because with only US$62,000 in the previous year they must have owed a lot of money somewhere. And the 2013 budget has also been increased, with corresponding increase in tests conducted already being reported.

JADCO has to be cleansed. Get a proper administrator, not a doctor figure head. Keeping records is a simple task, not rocket science.
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Re: WADA threatens to expel Jamaica -> Olympics -> drug test

Postby ehop101 » Fri Aug 23, 2013 10:53 am

gibson wrote:ban jamaica now, and let them in when they comply.

also, since jamaican athletes were not tested according to requirements, then the results at the world championships are not valid. i.e. if you miss the tests you get banned. if the requirements for a wr are not in place - legit track, wind gauge, etc... the results are not official....

the entire team - jamaica - is a farce. the farce which is track and field. cheering and idol worshiping PED users. calculating and figuring our how so and so will do all based on false data.

get me outa here. i have had enough of these charades.


I couldn't have said it better........I am done. Track and field has become a complete joke. Tyson Gay made a fool out of me and now we have this Jamican farce of a track team fooling the pubic. I'm done.
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Re: WADA threatens to expel Jamaica -> Olympics -> drug test

Postby beebee » Fri Aug 23, 2013 10:59 am

ehop101 wrote:
gibson wrote:ban jamaica now, and let them in when they comply.

also, since jamaican athletes were not tested according to requirements, then the results at the world championships are not valid. i.e. if you miss the tests you get banned. if the requirements for a wr are not in place - legit track, wind gauge, etc... the results are not official....

the entire team - jamaica - is a farce. the farce which is track and field. cheering and idol worshiping PED users. calculating and figuring our how so and so will do all based on false data.

get me outa here. i have had enough of these charades.


I couldn't have said it better........I am done. Track and field has become a complete joke. Tyson Gay made a fool out of me and now we have this Jamican farce of a track team fooling the pubic. I'm done.




I too am nearly done. What a terrible year for track and field.

The only thing that stops me from totally giving up is that I know some are innocent and clean.
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Re: WADA threatens to expel Jamaica -> Olympics -> drug test

Postby ehop101 » Fri Aug 23, 2013 11:04 am

beebee wrote:
ehop101 wrote:
gibson wrote:ban jamaica now, and let them in when they comply.

also, since jamaican athletes were not tested according to requirements, then the results at the world championships are not valid. i.e. if you miss the tests you get banned. if the requirements for a wr are not in place - legit track, wind gauge, etc... the results are not official....

the entire team - jamaica - is a farce. the farce which is track and field. cheering and idol worshiping PED users. calculating and figuring our how so and so will do all based on false data.

get me outa here. i have had enough of these charades.


I couldn't have said it better........I am done. Track and field has become a complete joke. Tyson Gay made a fool out of me and now we have this Jamican farce of a track team fooling the pubic. I'm done.




I too am nearly done. What a terrible year for track and field.

The only thing that stops me from totally giving up is that I know some are innocent and clean.


Tyson Gay was a hero of mine. As a former sprinter I believed in him. He seemed like such a nice guy....A guy who did it the right way. Now I found out it was a steroid!!! I'm like wow!!! YOU can''t believe anythng you see anymore...........It's sad.
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Re: WADA threatens to expel Jamaica -> Olympics -> drug test

Postby JWiz » Fri Aug 23, 2013 11:07 am

Well hurry up and leave, you and jerkham will have a wonderful time. Hell, jamboy would love to help you pack. :lol:

Jamaica has a serious problem, but it also brings out the trolls who would love nothing better than see it's demise, rather than debate solutions. Look at all the wild speculation in this thread already.
JWiz
 
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