WADA threatens to expel Jamaica -> Olympics -> drug testing


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Re: WADA threatens to expel Jamaica -> Olympics -> drug test

Postby dustoff » Sat Aug 24, 2013 10:16 am

In bulk, it can easily be done for $40. Redwood Toxicology has a WADA used a WADA approved lab and an individual can get a test done for under $150. Literally, you are too stupid to do a google search. This is pointless.

You also seem to have the idea that JADCO is entirely funded by the government of Jamaica, which we know to be false. This is getting beyond silly.
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Re: WADA threatens to expel Jamaica -> Olympics -> drug test

Postby toyracer » Sat Aug 24, 2013 11:09 am

dustoff wrote:In bulk, it can easily be done for $40. Redwood Toxicology has a WADA used a WADA approved lab and an individual can get a test done for under $150. Literally, you are too stupid to do a google search. This is pointless.

You also seem to have the idea that JADCO is entirely funded by the government of Jamaica, which we know to be false. This is getting beyond silly.


You've resorted to name calling. Nice. Very grown up of you.

I actually do know how to use Google. Perhaps you do not, since you cited Redwood Toxicology as an example of where someone could get a WADA approved test done. Contrary to what you may believe, Redwood Toxicology is not WADA accredited. There are only two WADA accredited testing labs in the USA: UCLA Olympic Analytical Laboratory and The Sports Medicine Research and Testing Laboratory (SMRTL). That can be verified at http://wada-ama.org/Documents/Science_M ... ies_EN.pdf

Redwood Toxicology claiming that it "developed a comprehensive and affordable steroid panel that is comparable to WADA" does not automatically mean that any of its test results are acceptable to WADA or the IAAF. In fact, without accreditation from WADA such a claim means nothing. There are only 33 WADA accredited labs in the world and theirs are the only test results that matter to WADA or the IAAF. So whatever amount Redwood Toxicology may charge for their test is irrelevant because WADA would not accept it.

So please, try again to substantiate your claim that a test kit and WADA approved test can all be had for $40, and don't forget the shipping charges from Jamaica.

Additionally, please show where JADCO is getting extra non-Government funds for testing purposes from. The UNESCO funding it received in the past for anti-doping symposiums does not count; that was for specific education purposes, not testing. Even the lady who wrote the SI article referred to JADCO being government funded http://jamaica-gleaner.com/gleaner/2013 ... ters1.html when she first surafced a few weeks ago. The source of funding for JADCO was clearly documented when it started, references can be read here http://issuu.com/jadco/docs/jadco_wada_ ... 12_digital (page i) and here http://www.chat-bout.net/content/view/876/ (end of page) . And it is no coincidence that the level of funding JADCO is reporting is identical to that which is contained in the official Government of Jamaica budget document.

So, please, show me where I have presented false information. The ironic thing is that I can (and did) produce evidence to verify every claim that I have made, while you resort to name calling and side stepping verifying your claims and in the one instance so far have been, at best, wrong.
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Re: WADA threatens to expel Jamaica -> Olympics -> drug test

Postby JWiz » Sat Aug 24, 2013 12:34 pm

@toyracer. Don't waste your time. There's no cure for stupid. dusty has an axe to grind and facts won't stop him.
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Re: WADA threatens to expel Jamaica -> Olympics -> drug test

Postby JumboElliott » Sat Aug 24, 2013 12:41 pm

I won't take JADCo seriously until they have a website.
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Re: WADA threatens to expel Jamaica -> Olympics -> drug test

Postby dustoff » Sat Aug 24, 2013 4:19 pm

Redwood Toxicology uses multiple labs listed. Are you that clueless? Not to mention, the wacky idea that, I don't know, Jamaica could much more cost effectively set-up their own lab and reduce their long-term costs dramatically.

Pretty much every Jamaican that posts in these threads is delusional.

Tough to take a group seriously that thinks anything less than a thousand tests is sufficient and, I don't know, having a truly independent group doing the testing like every other non-3rd world country.
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Re: WADA threatens to expel Jamaica -> Olympics -> drug test

Postby toyracer » Sat Aug 24, 2013 5:48 pm

dustoff wrote:Redwood Toxicology uses multiple labs listed. Are you that clueless? Not to mention, the wacky idea that, I don't know, Jamaica could much more cost effectively set-up their own lab and reduce their long-term costs dramatically.

Pretty much every Jamaican that posts in these threads is delusional.

Tough to take a group seriously that thinks anything less than a thousand tests is sufficient and, I don't know, having a truly independent group doing the testing like every other non-3rd world country.


Yet another name called. Again, very adult of you.

First of all, Redwood Toxicology prides itself on being an independent facility. Redwood Toxicology has its own lab, and its own version of steroid/sport testing but now you maintain that they farm out their work to other labs? So now you have one lab sending samples to other labs for testing. That makes sense to you? Don't you note that they don't offer WADA accredited testing, which they could list if they actually did farm out to a WADA accredited lab like you seem to be insinuating now? And why would anyone go through a process like that? Why not just send it to the WADA accredited lab in the first place? Just admit that the lab you tried to use as an example was in fact a bad example to use. Perhaps you google'd "wada" and "lab" and got a hit at Redwood but didn't read through all of the info. It happens.

Then you say you want a truly independent group doing the testing but want Jamaica to set up its own lab. Don't you think that if that were done the voices citing collusion and influence would be louder? You yourself seem very unhappy that Jamaicans collect the samples and send them to an independent laboratory in Canada; how happy would you be if Jamaicans collected the samples and tested them in a laboratory in Jamaica?

I am in no group. I have never said that I am happy with the amount of tests, so please do not lump me into whatever group you feel like. I've stated the opposite; I'm not happy with what has been happening. I want a defensible position, and JADCO certainly has not given that to me. However, they are improving, as evidenced by the numbers they have released for 2013 thus far.
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Re: WADA threatens to expel Jamaica -> Olympics -> drug test

Postby donley2 » Sat Aug 24, 2013 6:49 pm

I have no intention of getting in the middle of this (often idiotic) conversation. But I do have to wonder why all the vitriol is directed at Jamaica and not at other countries like Kenya and Ethiopia. I realize per capita gdp makes them generally considered 3rd world, but there total gdp's are actually larger than Jamaicas.
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Re: WADA threatens to expel Jamaica -> Olympics -> drug test

Postby maroon » Sat Aug 24, 2013 7:58 pm

maroon wrote:dustoff -- i am really not inclined to engage with you given your clear lack of bona fides. but in response to your argument about the number of ooc tests -- you are aware that it says 4+, right? you are also aware that we are talking about the iaaf, who have proven history of busting their biggest athletes, right? if the iaaf"s testing is not good enough for you, please take it up with them and please make sure you indicate that whatever standard you require be applied to all 4+ athletes from all nations. finally can you please provide the "receipts" for your accusation that there is unlikely to be testing in the fall and winter?

why are you making stuff up when there are sufficient unflattering facts?


i assume it is poor form to quote oneself. but i see that 2 pages later, the last sentence is still relevant.
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Re: WADA threatens to expel Jamaica -> Olympics -> drug test

Postby Tuariki » Sun Aug 25, 2013 12:42 am

copied from my posting in Current Events "Doping Study 29% in World Champs"

Tuariki wrote:The following tables have been generated from the annual reports of USADA, Drug Free Sport and WADA plus the JADCO press statement. Hopefully my calculations are correct. Apologies if I have made mistakes in calculations.

USA = USADA - - - NZL = Drug Free Sport NZ - - - - JAM = JADCO
J11 is JADCO figures for 2011 - - - J12 is JADCO figures for 2012
Currency conversion rates as at 1 Jan 2012 from http://www.xe.com

Table 1: Annual revenue
- - - - - mill - - - - - US$ mill
USA - - US$ 14.0 - - - US$14.0
NZL - - NZ$ 2.70 - - - US$ 2.10
J11 - - JA$ 27.9 - - - US$ 0.32
J12 - - JA$ 55.8 - - - US$ 0.65

Table 2: Annual revenue pro rata to population - J11 as the base
- - - - - - - pop - - - US$ M - - US$ M - - - Actual v
- - - - - - - - - - - - - Actual - Pro rata - - Pro rata

USA - - - 316.7 - - - 14.0 - - - 34.8 - - - - 40%
NZL - - - 4.365 - - - 2.10 - - - 0.48 - - - - 437%
JAM - - - 2.910 - - - 0.32 - - - 0.32 - - - - 100%

Table 3: Annual revenue pro rata to population - J12 as the base
- - - - - - pop - - - - US$ M - - US$ M - - Actual v
- - - - - - - - - - - - - Actual - - Pro rata - Pro rata

USA - - - 316.7 - - - 14.0 - - - 70.7 - - - - 20%
NZL - - - 4.365 - - - 2.10 - - - 0.98 - - - - 214%
JAM - - - 2.910 - - - 0.65 - - - 0.65 - - - - 100%

Table 4: Total tests WADA 2012 pro rata population - JAM as the base
- - - - - - pop - - - WADA - - - Tests - - - Actual v
- - - - - - - - - - - - Actual - - -Pro rata - Pro rata

USA - - -316.7 - - - 4051- - - 11536- - - - 35%
NZL - - - 4.365 - - - 1210 - - - 159- - - - - 761%
JAM - - - 2.910 - - - 106 - - - - 106- - - - -100%

Table 5: TnF tests WADA 2012 pro rata population - JAM as the base
- - - - - - pop - - - Tests - - Tests - - - Actual v
- - - - - - - - - - - - Actual - Pro rata - - Pro rata

USA - - - 316.7 - - 1070 - - 6421 - - - - - 17%
NZL - - - 4.365 - - - 88 - - - 88 - - - - - 100%
JAM - - - 2.910 - - - 59 - - - 59 - - - - - 100%

Table 6: Total tests pro rata US$ revenue - J12 as the base
- - -- - - US$ - - - Tests - - Tests - - - Actual v
- - - - - - rev - - - Actual - Pro rata - - Pro rata

USA - - -14.0 - - - 4051 - - 2283 - - - - 177%
NZL - - - 2.10 - - - 1210 - - 342 - - - - - 354%
JAM - - -0.65 - - - 106 - - -106 - - - - - 100%

Table 7: TnF tests pro rata US$ revenue - J12 as the base
- - - - - - US$ - - - Tests - Tests - - - Actual v
- - - - - - rev - - - Actual - Pro rata - Pro rata

USA - - - 14.0 - - -1070 - - 1270 - - - -84%
NZL - - - 2.10 - - - 88 - - - 191 - - - - - 46%
JAM - - - 0.65 - - - 59 - - - 59 - - - - - 100%
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Re: WADA threatens to expel Jamaica -> Olympics -> drug test

Postby Tuariki » Sun Aug 25, 2013 12:44 am

Copied from my posting in Current Events" Doping Study 29% in World Champs"

Tuariki wrote:Observations

Table 1: Annual revenue
The actual revenues are converted to US$ at the exchange rate for 1 January 2012.

Table 2: Annual revenue pro rata to population - J11 as the base
The revenues are calculated in US$ on a population pro rata basis using the Jamaica 2011 revenue as the base.
It shows that Jamaican expenditure on a per capita is 2 ½ times that of the USA

Table 3: Annual revenue pro rata to population - J12 as the base

The revenues are calculated in US$ on a population pro rata basis using the Jamaica 2012 revenue as the base.
This table shows that Jamaican expenditure on a per capita is 5 times that of the USA

Table 4: Total tests WADA 2012 pro rata population - JAM as the base
These figures show the total number of tests reported by WADA for all sports conducted by the national authority
The figures are then pro rata’d based on population using Jamaica as the base.
This table shows that Jamaica total testing on a per capita is 3 times that of the USA

Table 5: TnF tests WADA 2012 pro rata population - JAM as the base
These figures show the total number of tests for TnF reported by WADA conducted by the national authority
The figures are then pro rata’d based on population using Jamaica as the base.
This table shows that Jamaica total testing on a per capita is 6 times that of the USA

Table 6: Total tests pro rata US$ revenue - J12 as the base
These figures show the total number of tests reported by WADA conducted by the national authority
The figures are then pro rata’d based on pro rata’d revenue using Jamaica 2012 revenue as the base.
This table shows that Jamaica total testing is about ½ that of the USA on a per capita $ basis

Table 7: TnF tests pro rata US$ revenue - J12 as the base
These figures show the total number of tests for TnF reported by WADA conducted by the national authority
The figures are then pro rata’d based on pro rata’d revenue using Jamaica 2012 revenue as the base.
This table shows that Jamaica total testing is a little about more than that of the USA on a per capita $ basis

The low %age figures for Jamaica, re Table 6 and Table 7, are probably a reflection of the low annual revenue compared to the high fixed costs for the organisation.
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Re: WADA threatens to expel Jamaica -> Olympics -> drug test

Postby Tuariki » Sun Aug 25, 2013 12:48 am

Dustoff's extreme criticisms of Jamaica would appear to have no basis or foundation other than an obvious anti-Jamaica bias.
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Re: WADA threatens to expel Jamaica -> Olympics -> drug test

Postby Tuariki » Sun Aug 25, 2013 1:09 am

dustoff wrote:In bulk, it can easily be done for $40. Redwood Toxicology has a WADA used a WADA approved lab and an individual can get a test done for under $150. Literally, you are too stupid to do a google search. This is pointless.

You also seem to have the idea that JADCO is entirely funded by the government of Jamaica, which we know to be false. This is getting beyond silly.


According to the 2012 USADA Annual report:
* USADA revenue for 2012 was US13,999,384
* Total tests conducted by USADA in 2012 was 8,490 across all sports

Therefore, the average cost per test for USADA in 2012 was US$1,648.

By comparison, Jamaica's budget for 2012/2013 was JA$55,800,000 which at today's exchange rate is US$550,035. In the first 7 months of 2013 Jamaica conducted 262 tests. This works out at an average costs per test for JADCO of US$1,224 per test.

calculations [55,800,000 / 101.448 / 12 * 7 * 262]

Dustoff's criticism's would appear to have no substance. And Jamaica appears to beholding their own, at least in comparison to the USA.

However, both countries could no better I am sure.

The cost per test is, as Dustoff suggests, way too high, especially for the USA but then USADA appears to be top heavy in highly paid bureaucrats.
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Re: WADA threatens to expel Jamaica -> Olympics -> drug test

Postby Tuariki » Sun Aug 25, 2013 1:45 am

donley2 wrote:I have no intention of getting in the middle of this (often idiotic) conversation. But I do have to wonder why all the vitriol is directed at Jamaica and not at other countries like Kenya and Ethiopia. I realize per capita gdp makes them generally considered 3rd world, but there total gdp's are actually larger than Jamaicas.

While your statement is correct that is simply a factor of the much larger populations of Ethiopia and Kenya compared to Jamaica. A fairer and more appropriate way to look at this issue is to compare nominal per capita GDP
USA - - - - -US$50,000
Jamaica - -US$5,300
Kenya - - - US$900
Ethiopia - -US$400
The peoples and the Governments of Kenya and Ethiopia have a lot better things to do than spend millions of dollars every year from their minuscule national budgets to put in place a testing programme. They don't have the funds,they don't have the qualified people, they don't have the infrastructure.

The drug testing regimes of the wealthy western economies rely on a telecommunication and transportation infrastructure that simply does not exist in Kenya and Ethiopia (or eben in Jamaica in some parts). The sanctimonious criticisms of those posters who are, I believe, from rich western nations, are simply exhibiting and perpetuating a continuation of the colonial mentalities of the past.

The TNF homepage a has a story about Usain Bolt informing us that his birth village still doesn't even have running water. And Jamaica is a rich nation compared to Kenya and Ethiopia. Kenya? Ethiopia? Do they have telephones? Land lines? Cell phones? roads? transport? appropriate medical storage facilities?
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Re: WADA threatens to expel Jamaica -> Olympics -> drug test

Postby donley2 » Sun Aug 25, 2013 5:08 am

I said I wasn't going to get in the middle of this, but I must thank tauriki for a reasonably thought out response to my inquiry. I cannot see anything in the previous post that I really disagree with.
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Re: WADA threatens to expel Jamaica -> Olympics -> drug test

Postby dustoff » Sun Aug 25, 2013 4:42 pm

Tuariki wrote:
dustoff wrote:In bulk, it can easily be done for $40. Redwood Toxicology has a WADA used a WADA approved lab and an individual can get a test done for under $150. Literally, you are too stupid to do a google search. This is pointless.

You also seem to have the idea that JADCO is entirely funded by the government of Jamaica, which we know to be false. This is getting beyond silly.


According to the 2012 USADA Annual report:
* USADA revenue for 2012 was US13,999,384
* Total tests conducted by USADA in 2012 was 8,490 across all sports

Therefore, the average cost per test for USADA in 2012 was US$1,648.

By comparison, Jamaica's budget for 2012/2013 was JA$55,800,000 which at today's exchange rate is US$550,035. In the first 7 months of 2013 Jamaica conducted 262 tests. This works out at an average costs per test for JADCO of US$1,224 per test.

calculations [55,800,000 / 101.448 / 12 * 7 * 262]

Dustoff's criticism's would appear to have no substance. And Jamaica appears to beholding their own, at least in comparison to the USA.

However, both countries could no better I am sure.

The cost per test is, as Dustoff suggests, way too high, especially for the USA but then USADA appears to be top heavy in highly paid bureaucrats.


What on earth are you talking about? Lots of this involves, you know, traveling across the country to conduct testing, conducting sophisticated biological passport tests, conducting CIR tests, and more. It also involves handling the legal procedures that have gone on with the likes of Lance Armstrong. Jamaica is a small island with most of the athletes in or around Kingston and other nearby cities. It is a completely different situation.

I am giving the numbers for simple piss tests, which Jamaica isn't willing to do. Of course, more sophisticated tests are more expensive. Let's work on getting Jamaica to care about doing ANY kind of testing first.
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Re: WADA threatens to expel Jamaica -> Olympics -> drug test

Postby JumboElliott » Sun Aug 25, 2013 5:03 pm

Tuariki wrote:The drug testing regimes of the wealthy western economies rely on a telecommunication and transportation infrastructure that simply does not exist in Kenya and Ethiopia (or eben in Jamaica in some parts). The sanctimonious criticisms of those posters who are, I believe, from rich western nations, are simply exhibiting and perpetuating a continuation of the colonial mentalities of the past.

If they can't afford to feed their people, then they shouldn't be spending government funds to produce athletes.
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Re: WADA threatens to expel Jamaica -> Olympics -> drug test

Postby ehop101 » Mon Aug 26, 2013 4:40 am

Well if we can't have a level playing field then maybe some countries shouldn't compete. This improving crap or it is getting better is for the birds.
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Re: WADA threatens to expel Jamaica -> Olympics -> drug test

Postby Tuariki » Mon Aug 26, 2013 11:18 am

ehop101 wrote:Well if we can't have a level playing field then maybe some countries shouldn't compete. This improving crap or it is getting better is for the birds.

Yes, a great idea. Let only the countries rich enough to afford the systems imposed by the rich nations compete. We should definitely kick out those poor countries who have crap or non-existent testing programmes. By my count that will give greater opportunities for the rich country athletes as it means another 40 medals, at least, available for distribution from Moscow 2013. Maybe it would even help USA overtake Russia.
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Re: WADA threatens to expel Jamaica -> Olympics -> drug test

Postby toyracer » Mon Aug 26, 2013 11:54 am

ehop101 wrote:Well if we can't have a level playing field then maybe some countries shouldn't compete. This improving crap or it is getting better is for the birds.


What exactly is the standard in terms of a minimum level of testing?
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Re: WADA threatens to expel Jamaica -> Olympics -> drug test

Postby toyracer » Mon Aug 26, 2013 1:31 pm

dustoff wrote:In bulk, it can easily be done for $40. Redwood Toxicology has a WADA used a WADA approved lab and an individual can get a test done for under $150.


In an effort to get legitimate information I called Redwood Toxicology, even though they are not WADA approved.

They don't do business with individuals. They don't do individual tests. They were completely unwilling to even quote for the cost of a Steroid/Sports Test. The very nice operator explained that they deal with institutions (schools, sporting bodies etc) and that such an institution would have to set up an account with them before any further information is divulged.
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Re: WADA threatens to expel Jamaica -> Olympics -> drug test

Postby JumboElliott » Mon Aug 26, 2013 4:22 pm

toyracer wrote:
ehop101 wrote:Well if we can't have a level playing field then maybe some countries shouldn't compete. This improving crap or it is getting better is for the birds.


What exactly is the standard in terms of a minimum level of testing?

The minimum standard should be that the anti-doping body should have the resources available to do an out of competition blood test or carbon isotope ratio urine test on any individual athlete in their testing pool at a given time.
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Re: WADA threatens to expel Jamaica -> Olympics -> drug test

Postby beebee » Mon Aug 26, 2013 6:54 pm

JumboElliott wrote:
toyracer wrote:
ehop101 wrote:Well if we can't have a level playing field then maybe some countries shouldn't compete. This improving crap or it is getting better is for the birds.


What exactly is the standard in terms of a minimum level of testing?

The minimum standard should be that the anti-doping body should have the resources available to do an out of competition blood test or carbon isotope ratio urine test on any individual athlete in their testing pool at a given time.



A declaration of National indigency is truly a limp dick excuse for a virtually nonexistent anti-drug program. I guess we all should shut up and trust them :roll:
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Re: WADA threatens to expel Jamaica -> Olympics -> drug test

Postby toyracer » Mon Aug 26, 2013 7:43 pm

JumboElliott wrote:
toyracer wrote:
ehop101 wrote:Well if we can't have a level playing field then maybe some countries shouldn't compete. This improving crap or it is getting better is for the birds.


What exactly is the standard in terms of a minimum level of testing?

The minimum standard should be that the anti-doping body should have the resources available to do an out of competition blood test or carbon isotope ratio urine test on any individual athlete in their testing pool at a given time.


They apparently have the resources now. The budget has been increased for Financial Year 2013-2014. But I don't think that just having the resources is enough. Actual testing is what counts. It's no use saying that the personnel and test kits exist to do 500 tests yet none are done. That doesn't do anyone any good. The test numbers for the first half of this Calendar Year showed a marked improvement in relation to the same period last Calendar Year, which is a good thing.

I think that the IAAF/WADA drop the ball where this is concerned. There should be a minimum amount of tests for each standard of athlete. "A" standard must be tested at least "x" times for the year while "b" standard must be tested at least "y" times for the year. When such a minimum target exists, then a national body can be called into question if the target is not met. Now, there is too much ambiguity. With no minimum target there isn't any real way to say that any national testing body is failing, and that's not good.
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Re: WADA threatens to expel Jamaica -> Olympics -> drug test

Postby ehop101 » Tue Aug 27, 2013 4:40 am

beebee wrote:
JumboElliott wrote:
toyracer wrote:
ehop101 wrote:Well if we can't have a level playing field then maybe some countries shouldn't compete. This improving crap or it is getting better is for the birds.


What exactly is the standard in terms of a minimum level of testing?

The minimum standard should be that the anti-doping body should have the resources available to do an out of competition blood test or carbon isotope ratio urine test on any individual athlete in their testing pool at a given time.



A declaration of National indigency is truly a limp dick excuse for a virtually nonexistent anti-drug program. I guess we all should shut up and trust them :roll:



All I have to say is preach Beebee!!
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Re: WADA threatens to expel Jamaica -> Olympics -> drug test

Postby toyracer » Mon Oct 14, 2013 6:16 am

(AP) - The world's anti-doping authority is launching an "extraordinary" audit of Jamaica's drug-testing agency following allegations that its policing of the island's sprinting superstars led by Usain Bolt all but collapsed in the months before they dazzled at the London Games, The Associated Press has learned.

Read more: http://www.jamaicaobserver.com/news/Wor ... ng-Jamaica
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Re: WADA threatens to expel Jamaica -> Olympics -> drug test

Postby gh » Mon Oct 14, 2013 8:23 am

this new development has its own thread in Current Events.
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Re: WADA threatens to expel Jamaica -> Olympics -> drug test

Postby toyracer » Mon Oct 14, 2013 12:32 pm

gh wrote:this new development has its own thread in Current Events.


Thanks gh, I saw that after posting, but left it here since it is very relevant.
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