2013 College Football


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Re: 2013 College Football

Postby jazzcyclist » Mon Sep 16, 2013 12:32 pm

Dixon wrote:The thing with Jim Brown was his stats weren't all that in 1956 either. Not that I know what back had better stats.....I don't.

But remember, teams didn't play twelve games back then (Syracuse played eight in 1956) and the rules weren't totally rigged to help offenses put up video game numbers like they are today. Brown was dominant in his era.
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Re: 2013 College Football

Postby Dixon » Mon Sep 16, 2013 1:08 pm

jazzcyclist wrote:
Dixon wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote:You're focusing on the wrong time frame Dixon. Look at the period from the early 60's to mid 70's. Most of these schools have their media guides available online, and they include a list of the school's yearly AFL and NFL draft picks. Lay the facts side-by-side and get back to me. A couple of years ago, I printed out the relevant portions of the Grambling and LSU media guides, and laid them side-by-side for a couple of my younger cousins to see and they were shocked. Up until that time, they thought folks my age were exaggerating whener we talked about the glory days of SWAC and MEAC football.


Didn't you mention Walter Payton and Steve McNair? They didn't play in the 60's/70's.

Payton played in the early 70's.

Dixon wrote:Jazz I could start right now and list every NFER/AFLER out of the HBCU (by team) much less just the SWAC/MEAC,...honest. You weren't talking about way back when.

As we all know once the old SWC and the SEC started allowing the black athletes to compete it changed things. All that came before Payton and McNair.

Then there's....while schools like Grambling and Southern U had alot of NFL there were schools like Alabama A&M, Alcorn, Arkansas Pine Bluff, Alabama A&M, Mississippi Valley who had very few at any time.

You're over-simplifying things. The SEC didn't sign its first Black player until 1971. Therefore anyone that came out of high school in 1970 and before would have had to either go the HBCU route or leave the South. So the last of these pre-integration players would have still been on HBCU rosters in 1973. Furthermore, initially SEC schools only signed a handful of Black players (LSU and Alabama each signed one in 1971) so as to not overwhelm their fan bases that still weren't comfortable with the idea. Coincidentally, Walter Payton graduated from high school in 1971 and received offers from several Big 8 schools, but he received no SEC offers since they were all limited by these self-imposed quota s. This means that SWAC schools were still getting a large chunk of the elite Black talent in the South for several years after the first Black player was signed to an SEC school. It wasn't until the mid to late 70's that SEC schools began wholesale recruiting of Black players and that's when the SWAC talent level began to fall off dramatically.


The thing is those HBCU schools didn't have a number of future NFLers on their rosters in any one year. So a Payron or a Leroy Kelly lined up against maybe one or two NFL caliber defenders if that. While that can't be said about the Big10, etc.
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Re: 2013 College Football

Postby Dixon » Mon Sep 16, 2013 1:12 pm

jazzcyclist wrote:
Dixon wrote:The thing with Jim Brown was his stats weren't all that in 1956 either. Not that I know what back had better stats.....I don't.

But remember, teams didn't play twelve games back then (Syracuse played eight in 1956) and the rules weren't totally rigged to help offenses put up video game numbers like they are today. Brown was dominant in his era.


That explains why only 980 some yards. That's 6 plus average...wow!

Obviously here we see something that went beyond just football. But...i don't know the caliber of the teams ND beat in 56 as compared to Syracuse (yep, too lazy to do the homework) if Hornung was beating highly ranked teams....hmmm?
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Re: 2013 College Football

Postby beebee » Mon Sep 16, 2013 1:31 pm

Dixon wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote:
Dixon wrote:The thing with Jim Brown was his stats weren't all that in 1956 either. Not that I know what back had better stats.....I don't.

But remember, teams didn't play twelve games back then (Syracuse played eight in 1956) and the rules weren't totally rigged to help offenses put up video game numbers like they are today. Brown was dominant in his era.


That explains why only 980 some yards. That's 6 plus average...wow!

Obviously here we see something that went beyond just football. But...i don't know the caliber of the teams ND beat in 56 as compared to Syracuse (yep, too lazy to do the homework) if Hornung was beating highly ranked teams....hmmm?


Stats, stats, stats...

Most true sports fans know how numbers can be completely misleading and deceptive. A great offensive lineman, a linebacker who doesn't go for just sacks, a great db no qb dares throw toward has no chance for a heisman in your inflated numbers world. In 1950's America Hourning was White and at Norte Dame and Brown was Black...period.

if a Black player conducted himself like this punk Manziel he surely would not be celebrated, he'd be micromanaged and relentlessly lambasted by the media(please see LeBron James or Tiger Woods) as a cocky jackass.
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Re: 2013 College Football

Postby jazzcyclist » Mon Sep 16, 2013 1:34 pm

Dixon wrote:The thing is those HBCU schools didn't have a number of future NFLers on their rosters in any one year. So a Payron or a Leroy Kelly lined up against maybe one or two NFL caliber defenders if that.

You're wrong Dixon. Download the media guides and look at the facts.
Dixon wrote:While that can't be said about the Big10, etc.

Now you're moving the goal posts. I thought we were comparing the SWAC to the SEC before integration. Let's stick to that.
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Re: 2013 College Football

Postby jazzcyclist » Mon Sep 16, 2013 1:37 pm

beebee wrote:if a Black player conducted himself like this punk Manziel he surely would not be celebrated, he'd be micromanaged and relentlessly lambasted by the media(please see LeBron James or Tiger Woods) as a cocky jackass.

Preach beebee, preach. Finally someone acknowledges the elephant in the room. 8-)
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Re: 2013 College Football

Postby user4 » Mon Sep 16, 2013 1:39 pm

jazzcyclist wrote:Now you're moving the goal posts. I thought we were comparing the SWAC to the SEC before integration. Let's stick to that.


Indeed lets stick to that because it helps explain why Manziel should have never won the heisman, ... makes perfect sense.


jazzcyclist wrote:
beebee wrote:if a Black player conducted himself like this punk Manziel he surely would not be celebrated, he'd be micromanaged and relentlessly lambasted by the media(please see LeBron James or Tiger Woods) as a cocky jackass.

Preach beebee, preach. Finally someone acknowledges the elephant in the room. 8-)


Except the elephant was brought into the room by you and beebee but no one understood why .. and we still dont. 2012-1956 = 56 years ago ... Manziel's father and mother were probably not even born in 1956.
Last edited by user4 on Mon Sep 16, 2013 1:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 2013 College Football

Postby Dixon » Mon Sep 16, 2013 1:49 pm

beebee wrote:
Dixon wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote:
Dixon wrote:The thing with Jim Brown was his stats weren't all that in 1956 either. Not that I know what back had better stats.....I don't.

But remember, teams didn't play twelve games back then (Syracuse played eight in 1956) and the rules weren't totally rigged to help offenses put up video game numbers like they are today. Brown was dominant in his era.


That explains why only 980 some yards. That's 6 plus average...wow!

Obviously here we see something that went beyond just football. But...i don't know the caliber of the teams ND beat in 56 as compared to Syracuse (yep, too lazy to do the homework) if Hornung was beating highly ranked teams....hmmm?


Stats, stats, stats...

Most true sports fans know how numbers can be completely misleading and deceptive. A great offensive lineman, a linebacker who doesn't go for just sacks, a great db no qb dares throw toward has no chance for a heisman in your inflated numbers world. In 1950's America Hourning was White and at Norte Dame and Brown was Black...period.

if a Black player conducted himself like this punk Manziel he surely would not be celebrated, he'd be micromanaged and relentlessly lambasted by the media(please see LeBron James or Tiger Woods) as a cocky jackass.


Please trust me on this one...you will not find a truer sports fan anywhere than myself....ok?

I mentioned there was more to this than just football.
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Re: 2013 College Football

Postby beebee » Mon Sep 16, 2013 1:50 pm

user4 wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote:Now you're moving the goal posts. I thought we were comparing the SWAC to the SEC before integration. Let's stick to that.


Indeed lets stick to that because it helps explain why Manziel should have never won the heisman, ... makes perfect sense.


jazzcyclist wrote:
beebee wrote:if a Black player conducted himself like this punk Manziel he surely would not be celebrated, he'd be micromanaged and relentlessly lambasted by the media(please see LeBron James or Tiger Woods) as a cocky jackass.

Preach beebee, preach. Finally someone acknowledges the elephant in the room. 8-)


Except the elephant was brought into the room by you and beebee but no one understood why .. and we still dont. 2012-1956 = 56 years ago... Manziel's father and mother were probably not even born in 1956.


Perhaps speaking for yourself might suit you better.
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Re: 2013 College Football

Postby Dixon » Mon Sep 16, 2013 1:54 pm

jazzcyclist wrote:
Dixon wrote:The thing is those HBCU schools didn't have a number of future NFLers on their rosters in any one year. So a Payron or a Leroy Kelly lined up against maybe one or two NFL caliber defenders if that.

You're wrong Dixon. Download the media guides and look at the facts.
Dixon wrote:While that can't be said about the Big10, etc.

Now you're moving the goal posts. I thought we were comparing the SWAC to the SEC before integration. Let's stick to that.


I have a book that breaks down each draft class as far back as the draft goes. But I have to go pick some kids up from school.

Interesting topic. Be back later.

Back,

Ok this out of the National Football League Enclyclopedia.

In 1975 the year that Payton was drafted number one by the Bears only 10 others SWAC players were drafted.

Alcorn..1
Jackson St...2
Southern U.. 2
Tex So...2
Grambling 3

I;m pretty sure that would be about the norm no matter what year I looked at. But I will try one more, how about 1964? Or any year you want.

Be right back.

Ok in 1964 we saw...

Jacjson St...2
Tex S0...2
Grambling...3
Alcorn..1
Southern..2

I'll be damn...10.

Ok lets say there is a year where that conference had 20 drafted, that's still less than 3 per team.

Like I said those teams didn't have an over abundance of NFL talent at any one time.
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Re: 2013 College Football

Postby jazzcyclist » Mon Sep 16, 2013 3:07 pm

user4 wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote:Now you're moving the goal posts. I thought we were comparing the SWAC to the SEC before integration. Let's stick to that.


Indeed lets stick to that because it helps explain why Manziel should have never won the heisman, ... makes perfect sense.


jazzcyclist wrote:
beebee wrote:if a Black player conducted himself like this punk Manziel he surely would not be celebrated, he'd be micromanaged and relentlessly lambasted by the media(please see LeBron James or Tiger Woods) as a cocky jackass.

Preach beebee, preach. Finally someone acknowledges the elephant in the room. 8-)


Except the elephant was brought into the room by you and beebee but no one understood why .. and we still dont. 2012-1956 = 56 years ago ... Manziel's father and mother were probably not even born in 1956.

You're the only one obsessed with the 2012 Heisman. My initial point was about how Manziel compares to Vick when Marlow brought the Heisman Trophy to the debate. IMO, the Heisman Trophy is just a publicity award for offensive players on winning teams, which is why no defensive player or interior lineman has ever won it.
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Re: 2013 College Football

Postby jazzcyclist » Mon Sep 16, 2013 3:11 pm

Dixon wrote:I have a book that breaks down each draft class as far back as the draft goes. But I have to go pick some kids up from school.

Interesting topic. Be back later.

Back,

Ok this out of the National Football League Enclyclopedia.

In 1975 the year that Payton was drafted number one by the Bears only 10 others SWAC players were drafted.

Alcorn..1
Jackson St...2
Southern U.. 2
Tex So...2
Grambling 3

I;m pretty sure that would be about the norm no matter what year I looked at. But I will try one more, how about 1964? Or any year you want.

Be right back.

Ok in 1964 we saw...

Jacjson St...2
Tex S0...2
Grambling...3
Alcorn..1
Southern..2

I'll be damn...10.

Ok lets say there is a year where that conference had 20 drafted, that's still less than 3 per team.

Like I said those teams didn't have an over abundance of NFL talent at any one time.

What does your book tell you about 1966, 1967, 1968, 1969, 1970, 1971 an 1972? And what does it say about the AFL during these years?
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Re: 2013 College Football

Postby Marlow » Mon Sep 16, 2013 3:22 pm

beebee wrote:if a Black player conducted himself like this punk Manziel he surely would not be celebrated, he'd be micromanaged and relentlessly lambasted by the media (please see LeBron James or Tiger Woods) as a cocky jackass.

You must have slept thru the summer because JM was indeed demonized by the national media as a cocky jackass!! Lou Holtz couldn't say enough bad things about him when he got the unsportsmanlike penalty for talking with defenders!
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Re: 2013 College Football

Postby Dixon » Mon Sep 16, 2013 3:48 pm

jazzcyclist wrote:
Dixon wrote:I have a book that breaks down each draft class as far back as the draft goes. But I have to go pick some kids up from school.

Interesting topic. Be back later.

Back,

Ok this out of the National Football League Enclyclopedia.

In 1975 the year that Payton was drafted number one by the Bears only 10 others SWAC players were drafted.

Alcorn..1
Jackson St...2
Southern U.. 2
Tex So...2
Grambling 3

I;m pretty sure that would be about the norm no matter what year I looked at. But I will try one more, how about 1964? Or any year you want.

Be right back.

Ok in 1964 we saw...

Jacjson St...2
Tex S0...2
Grambling...3
Alcorn..1
Southern..2

I'll be damn...10.

Ok lets say there is a year where that conference had 20 drafted, that's still less than 3 per team.

Like I said those teams didn't have an over abundance of NFL talent at any one time.

What does your book tell you about 1966, 1967, 1968, 1969, 1970, 1971 an 1972? And what does it say about the AFL during these years?


I'll let you know, that 1964 info was the NFL/AFL.
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Re: 2013 College Football

Postby user4 » Mon Sep 16, 2013 4:15 pm

jazzcyclist wrote:
user4 wrote:Except the elephant was brought into the room by you and beebee but no one understood why .. and we still dont. 2012-1956 = 56 years ago ... Manziel's father and mother were probably not even born in 1956.

You're the only one obsessed with the 2012 Heisman. My initial point was about how Manziel compares to Vick when Marlow brought the Heisman Trophy to the debate. IMO, the Heisman Trophy is just a publicity award for offensive players on winning teams, which is why no defensive player or interior lineman has ever won it.

That is almost right , conversation Was about manziel 2013, then manziel 2012 heisman ... Strange comments from beebee and you from beginning to end ... Honestly still hard to understand the reasoning behind them. Thanks for giving us the deep background.
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Re: 2013 College Football

Postby jazzcyclist » Tue Sep 17, 2013 10:11 am

Mack Brown apologizes for 66-17 loss to OU next month

A somber Mack Brown addressed the media today, apologizing for the Texas Longhorns' embarrassing 66-17 loss to bitter rival Oklahoma next month.

"I want to apologize to all Texas fans in advance," said a visibly-shaken Brown. "66-17 is unacceptable. I'm as disappointed as anybody about how the team will play against Oklahoma on October 12. But you can't look back at next month's loss and torture yourself with ‘What ifs?' You have to move on."

http://www.barkingcarnival.com/2013/9/1 ... next-month
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Re: 2013 College Football

Postby user4 » Tue Sep 17, 2013 10:23 am

jazzcyclist wrote:Mack Brown apologizes for 66-17 loss to OU next month

A somber Mack Brown addressed the media today, apologizing for the Texas Longhorns' embarrassing 66-17 loss to bitter rival Oklahoma next month.

"I want to apologize to all Texas fans in advance," said a visibly-shaken Brown. "66-17 is unacceptable. I'm as disappointed as anybody about how the team will play against Oklahoma on October 12. But you can't look back at next month's loss and torture yourself with ‘What ifs?' You have to move on."

http://www.barkingcarnival.com/2013/9/1 ... next-month


very funny ... but at some point the board of trustees through a new longhorn athletic director dont give Brown a next week .. the clock is ticking. As an old Texas governor used to say.. "stick a fork in 'em.. he's done"!.. meanwhile 600 miles north on the cool and open plains of Nebraska a certain Bo Pelini sweats..
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Re: 2013 College Football

Postby Marlow » Tue Sep 17, 2013 11:06 am

user4 wrote:dont give Brown a next week .. the clock is ticking.

How the once mighty fall . . . He HAS to have the raw material, and even if he's 'lost a step', has he not surrounded himself with some of the best assistant coaches (oil) money can buy? If you've got the recruits, a good O & D Coordinator, do you even have to be a good Head Coach?
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Re: 2013 College Football

Postby user4 » Tue Sep 17, 2013 11:20 am

Marlow wrote:
user4 wrote:dont give Brown a next week .. the clock is ticking.

How the once mighty fall . . . He HAS to have the raw material, and even if he's 'lost a step', has he not surrounded himself with some of the best assistant coaches (oil) money can buy? If you've got the recruits, a good O & D Coordinator, do you even have to be a good Head Coach?


More excuses from the Burnt orange crowd on how they missed Johnny Football ... http://www.burntorangenation.com/2013/8 ... -narrative

"... The second is that Texas never offered Manziel as a safety. The Longhorns never offered him at all, so did they really recruit him as a defensive back? "
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Re: 2013 College Football

Postby jazzcyclist » Tue Sep 17, 2013 12:00 pm

Marlow wrote:
user4 wrote:dont give Brown a next week .. the clock is ticking.

How the once mighty fall . . . He HAS to have the raw material, and even if he's 'lost a step', has he not surrounded himself with some of the best assistant coaches (oil) money can buy? If you've got the recruits, a good O & D Coordinator, do you even have to be a good Head Coach?

Mack Brown has a reputation as being an internet recruiter which is why he has a roster full of 5-star athletes who can't play. Back when Butch Davis was at Miami, he recruited 20 first-round NFL draft picks in his last four years there, and out of those 20, nine were basically unrecruited out of high school, including Ed Reed and Santana Moss, meaning that Miami was the only 1-A offer they recieved, and in some cases, the only 1-A or 1-AA offer. In order to land that many studs flying below the radar, you have to go out and evualuate talent for yourself, rather than rely of recruiting services and Parade Magazine to do it for you. Tyrann Mathieu, who was a two-star recruit, is a prime example of this type of athlete.
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Re: 2013 College Football

Postby user4 » Tue Sep 17, 2013 12:34 pm

jazzcyclist wrote:
Marlow wrote:
user4 wrote:dont give Brown a next week .. the clock is ticking.

How the once mighty fall . . . He HAS to have the raw material, and even if he's 'lost a step', has he not surrounded himself with some of the best assistant coaches (oil) money can buy? If you've got the recruits, a good O & D Coordinator, do you even have to be a good Head Coach?

Mack Brown has a reputation as being an internet recruiter which is why he has a roster full of 5-star athletes who can't play...


Im going to guess that he has the raw athletes he needs to be more than competitive, he has the talent to be on top of the Big12. UT always does... but the morale, discipline and culture of excellence are missing. It starts at the top and it trickles down. "Stick a fork in 'em"

Edit Morale v moral (sorry)
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Re: 2013 College Football

Postby jazzcyclist » Tue Sep 17, 2013 1:14 pm

user4 wrote:Im going to guess that he has the raw athletes he needs to be more than competitive, he has the talent to be on top of the Big12. UT always does... but the moral, discipline and culture of excellence are missing. It starts at the top and it trickles down. "Stick a fork in 'em"

I'll concede that there's no school in the country that has a recruiting advantage on Texas when it comes to being able to attract blue chip talent, so either he's recruiting the wrong athletes, or he's recruiting the right athletes but not coaching them properly.
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Re: 2013 College Football

Postby user4 » Tue Sep 17, 2013 1:40 pm

jazzcyclist wrote:
user4 wrote:Im going to guess that he has the raw athletes he needs to be more than competitive, he has the talent to be on top of the Big12. UT always does... but the moral, discipline and culture of excellence are missing. It starts at the top and it trickles down. "Stick a fork in 'em"

I'll concede that there's no school in the country that has a recruiting advantage on Texas when it comes to being able to attract blue chip talent, so either he's recruiting the wrong athletes, or he's recruiting the right athletes but not coaching them properly.


I think with the talent he has now they could play a heck of allot better than they are now... "stick a fork in 'em"!
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Re: 2013 College Football

Postby odelltrclan » Tue Sep 17, 2013 2:06 pm

user4 wrote:Im going to guess that he has the raw athletes he needs to be more than competitive, he has the talent to be on top of the Big12. UT always does... but the morale, discipline and culture of excellence are missing. It starts at the top and it trickles down. "Stick a fork in 'em"

Edit Morale v moral (sorry)


The best way to measure that overall talent is through results. Getting your butts handed to you on consecutive weekends (including giving up 550 yards of rushing in one of those games) would leave me to believe the current talent level, top to bottom is lacking. Teams with the talent to lead a conference as good as the B12 don't give up 550 yards rushing to anyone, or get smoked by two average to slightly above average teams.
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Re: 2013 College Football

Postby odelltrclan » Tue Sep 17, 2013 2:08 pm

user4 wrote: meanwhile 600 miles north on the cool and open plains of Nebraska a certain Bo Pelini sweats..


Nebraska would be foolish to get rid of Pelini right now. I think they will do fine this year and I think UCLA and the P12 in general are underrated.
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Re: 2013 College Football

Postby Marlow » Tue Sep 17, 2013 2:53 pm

odelltrclan wrote:The best way to measure that overall talent is through results.

Would that it were so, but there's too many sad tales of bad coaching to believe that.
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Re: 2013 College Football

Postby user4 » Tue Sep 17, 2013 5:11 pm

odelltrclan wrote:
user4 wrote:Im going to guess that he has the raw athletes he needs to be more than competitive, he has the talent to be on top of the Big12. UT always does... but the morale, discipline and culture of excellence are missing. It starts at the top and it trickles down. "Stick a fork in 'em"

Edit Morale v moral (sorry)


The best way to measure that overall talent is through results. Getting your butts handed to you on consecutive weekends (including giving up 550 yards of rushing in one of those games) would leave me to believe the current talent level, top to bottom is lacking. Teams with the talent to lead a conference as good as the B12 don't give up 550 yards rushing to anyone, or get smoked by two average to slightly above average teams.


I dont see the UT football roster lacking in measureables... They are big and fast and all that ... The problem is character and coaching .... Austin is not going to be embarrassed for long .
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Re: 2013 College Football

Postby Blues » Tue Sep 17, 2013 6:15 pm

jazzcyclist wrote:
Marlow wrote:
user4 wrote:dont give Brown a next week .. the clock is ticking.

How the once mighty fall . . . He HAS to have the raw material, and even if he's 'lost a step', has he not surrounded himself with some of the best assistant coaches (oil) money can buy? If you've got the recruits, a good O & D Coordinator, do you even have to be a good Head Coach?

Mack Brown has a reputation as being an internet recruiter which is why he has a roster full of 5-star athletes who can't play. Back when Butch Davis was at Miami, he recruited 20 first-round NFL draft picks in his last four years there, and out of those 20, nine were basically unrecruited out of high school, including Ed Reed and Santana Moss, meaning that Miami was the only 1-A offer they recieved, and in some cases, the only 1-A or 1-AA offer. In order to land that many studs flying below the radar, you have to go out and evualuate talent for yourself, rather than rely of recruiting services and Parade Magazine to do it for you. Tyrann Mathieu, who was a two-star athlete, is a prime example of this type of athlete.


Not sure of details, but Santana Moss initially went to Miami on a track and field scholarship and was a walk-on in football, so maybe the track and field coaches deserve some of the credit for getting him there. Three weeks after making the team as a walk-on he was offered a football scholarship by Butch Davis based on his performance. (Moss didn't have a large amount of receptions in high school since his team didn't pass much, which may help explain why all of his scholarship offers were for track and field.)
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Re: 2013 College Football

Postby jazzcyclist » Tue Sep 17, 2013 7:39 pm

Blues wrote:Not sure of details, but Santana Moss initially went to Miami on a track and field scholarship and was a walk-on in football, so maybe the track and field coaches deserve some of the credit for getting him there. Three weeks after making the team as a walk-on he was offered a football scholarship by Butch Davis based on his performance. (Moss didn't have a large amount of receptions in high school since his team didn't pass much, which may help explain why all of his scholarship offers were for track and field.)

Miami was down to 65 scholarships at the time because of probation from the Dennis Erickson era, and Davis worked with the track coach to get Moss in on a track scholarship. I suppose Davis initially wanted to redshirt him that first year, but because of NCAA rules, once Davis decided to play him his freshman year, he was forced to put him on football scholarship. Aside from the things you pointed out, Moss' lack of size probably also contributed to his lack of 1-A football scholarship offers.
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Re: 2013 College Football

Postby Dixon » Tue Sep 17, 2013 7:56 pm

Wrapping up this SWAC situation.

Grambling is head and shoulders above the rest of those schools as far as NFL talent goes. Not that that is a surprise. The rest of the SWAC just so so (compared to other conferences)

Speaking of HBCU football.

I don't like to see this....

FAMU vs Ohio State
Bethune Cookman vs FSU
Savannah State vs Miami

This needs to be stopped.

I see the guys on the right scoring over 120 points combined while the guys on the left, hmmm...30? I'm probably being a little conservative with the 120.

If there was an HBCU school in Cali they'd be playing Sacramento State, CPSLO, LA State etc.

We still see some serious track talent coming out of those HBCU schools.
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Re: 2013 College Football

Postby jazzcyclist » Tue Sep 17, 2013 9:19 pm

During the glory days right before the SEC integrated (1967-71), Grambling might not have won the SEC, but they wouldn't have finished at the bottom either. By the way Dixon, do you know what Grambling's series record is versus Oregon State? Also, do you remember the days when FAMU would play the University of Miami to get an easy non-conference win? Of course that was before Howard Schnellenberger arrived in Coral Gables.
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Re: 2013 College Football

Postby user4 » Tue Sep 17, 2013 10:24 pm

jazzcyclist wrote:During the glory days right before the SEC integrated (1967-71), Grambling might not have won the SEC, but they wouldn't have finished at the bottom either..

That sounds quite plausible considering the size of the southern black population.
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Re: 2013 College Football

Postby user4 » Wed Sep 18, 2013 6:20 am

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Re: 2013 College Football

Postby Dixon » Wed Sep 18, 2013 8:26 am

jazzcyclist wrote:During the glory days right before the SEC integrated (1967-71), Grambling might not have won the SEC, but they wouldn't have finished at the bottom either. By the way Dixon, do you know what Grambling's series record is versus Oregon State? Also, do you remember the days when FAMU would play the University of Miami to get an easy non-conference win? Of course that was before Howard Schnellenberger arrived in Coral Gables.


I hate to talk in the negative about my beloved HBCU/SWAC.....honest! I've always had a soft spot for those schools. You've seen my ..All Time HBCU fantasy 4x1/4x4...over on the history forum. I could also do that with football, I'm well aware of the histories.

It's when we start comparing those schools even Grambling to the Big10, SWC, Pac10, Notre Dame, that we start to see the big difference.

Check it out...

QB...Steve McNair Alcorn (Doug Williams?)
RB...Walter Payton Jackson St
RB..Leroy Kelly..Morgan St
WR...Jerry Rice...MVS
WR..Bob Hayes...FAMU
TE..Shannon Sharpe...Savannah St

Wow~~~~~

First 1000 yard rusher for the Raiders...Clem Daneils...Prairie View

Remember the game that changed pro football....SBIII? Who made the big play there, yep...Otis Taylor Prairie View.

Who brought in the zone defense, yep....Bob Hayes FAMU.

There I go rambling on about the HBCU....my bad.
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Re: 2013 College Football

Postby jazzcyclist » Wed Sep 18, 2013 9:56 am

Dixon wrote:I hate to talk in the negative about my beloved HBCU/SWAC.....honest! I've always had a soft spot for those schools. You've seen my ..All Time HBCU fantasy 4x1/4x4...over on the history forum. I could also do that with football, I'm well aware of the histories.

It's when we start comparing those schools even Grambling to the Big10, SWC, Pac10, Notre Dame, that we start to see the big difference.

But some of these HBCU's did have success against schools from the "big conferences" back in the day. How do you explain that?

EDIT: Dixon, I've asked you several straight foward questions and you've ignored them, and you still haven't reported what you found out about the SWAC in the years 1966 thru 1972.
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Re: 2013 College Football

Postby Dixon » Wed Sep 18, 2013 1:35 pm

jazzcyclist wrote:
Dixon wrote:I hate to talk in the negative about my beloved HBCU/SWAC.....honest! I've always had a soft spot for those schools. You've seen my ..All Time HBCU fantasy 4x1/4x4...over on the history forum. I could also do that with football, I'm well aware of the histories.

It's when we start comparing those schools even Grambling to the Big10, SWC, Pac10, Notre Dame, that we start to see the big difference.

But some of these HBCU's did have success against schools from the "big conferences" back in the day. How do you explain that?

EDIT: Dixon, I've asked you several straight foward questions and you've ignored them, and you still haven't reported what you found out about the SWAC in the years 1966 thru 1972.


I started delving into all that then it became real obvious real fast that only Grambling had had more than a couple pro players year in and out. Which was my point, Payton didn't play against teams on a par with the bigger conferences, obviously McNair didn't which was the two you mentioned.

When you start dealing with Alcorn, MVS, Alabama State, Prarie View, Jackson State, Texas Southern we start seeing what I'm talking about. Those teams never had more than a few pro caliber players at any one time.

What would you say is the biggest win an HBCU team had over a biggie?

Even mighty Grambling only had 37ish playing in pro ball from Tank Younger to 1973.

FAMU around 30 prior to 1973.

So you can only imagine what the lesser lights had.

Morgan State 25ish prior to 73.
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Re: 2013 College Football

Postby jazzcyclist » Wed Sep 18, 2013 1:49 pm

Dixon wrote: I started delving into all that then it became real obvious real fast that only Grambling had had more than a couple pro players year in and out. Which was my point, Payton didn't play against teams on a par with the bigger conferences, obviously McNair didn't which was the two you mentioned.

When you start dealing with Alcorn, MVS, Alabama State, Prarie View, Jackson State, Texas Southern we start seeing what I'm talking about. Those teams never had more than a few pro caliber players at any one time.

What would you say is the biggest win an HBCU team had over a biggie?

Even mighty Grambling only had 37ish playing in pro ball from Tank Younger to 1973.

FAMU around 30 prior to 1973.

So you can only imagine what the lesser lights had.

But how do those numbers compare to the SEC in that same time frame? Here's what you said:

"Grambling had a lot of NFLers but not that many off any one seasons team."

Who sent more players to the NFL in the late 60's and early 70's? LSU or Grambling?
Last edited by jazzcyclist on Wed Sep 18, 2013 4:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 2013 College Football

Postby Dixon » Wed Sep 18, 2013 1:54 pm

jazzcyclist wrote:
Dixon wrote:But some of these HBCU's did have success against schools from the "big conferences" back in the day. How do you explain that?

EDIT: Dixon, I've asked you several straight foward questions and you've ignored them, and you still haven't reported what you found out about the SWAC in the years 1966 thru 1972.


I started delving into all that then it became real obvious real fast that only Grambling had had more than a couple pro players year in and out. Which was my point, Payton didn't play against teams on a par with the bigger conferences, obviously McNair didn't which was the two you mentioned.

When you start dealing with Alcorn, MVS, Alabama State, Prarie View, Jackson State, Texas Southern we start seeing what I'm talking about. Those teams never had more than a few pro caliber players at any one time.

What would you say is the biggest win an HBCU team had over a biggie?

Even mighty Grambling only had 37ish playing in pro ball from Tank Younger to 1973.

FAMU around 30 prior to 1973.

So you can only imagine what the lesser lights had.

But how do those numbers compare to the SEC in that same time frame? Here's what you said:

"Grambling had a lot of NFLers but not that many off any one seasons team."

Who sent more players to the NFL in the late 60's and early 70's? LSU or Grambling?[/quote]

When did this become an SEC thing? Hell look at UCLA, they had around 65 players make pro football rosters while Grambling had less than 40 prior to 1973. I bet if we look at ND, USC, the Big 10 we see something similiar.

And what does any of that have to do with what Payton and McNair faced?

And LSU had around 80 players play pro ball prior to 1973.

I get where you're trying to go with this, the thing is week in and week out a SWAC/HBCU schedule simply didn't match up to what we saw in the bigger conferences. Sure Grambling was a stud but that can't be said about the conference/MEAC in general. Just look at the QB play, other than Williams and McNair ....???? Those schools lacked quality depth. Like I mentioned bro, big up on the HBCU can rattle off everyone who was anyone....trust me.

Look at Tuskegge, NCC, Norfolk State, Arkansas Pine-Bluff, Maryland Eastern Shore, St Augustine etc etc ....who were their NFLers? Yes they had some.
Last edited by Dixon on Wed Sep 18, 2013 4:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 2013 College Football

Postby user4 » Wed Sep 18, 2013 2:55 pm

so prior to mid 60s there was a bias against black players and players from the HBCU sphere. Once the NFL/AFL culture changed and NFL/AFL owners and general managers started to see the untapped reservoir of talent they quickly sought to tap/exploit it. When the SEC started recruiting black players the deflation of HBCU football was inevitable. Just a theory.
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Re: 2013 College Football

Postby Dixon » Wed Sep 18, 2013 4:16 pm

user4 wrote:so prior to mid 60s there was a bias against black players and players from the HBCU sphere. Once the NFL/AFL culture changed and NFL/AFL owners and general managers started to see the untapped reservoir of talent they quickly sought to tap/exploit it. When the SEC started recruiting black players the deflation of HBCU football was inevitable. Just a theory.


That's about it, yeah.

Just think (talking track)

1964 Olympic 100m cold...Florida A&M
1965 top ranked 100m sprinter Southern U
1968 Olympic 100m gold Texas Southern
1972 Olympic 100m silver Texas Southern

Only a blind man wouldn't see what's going on there.

The reason the old AFL worked was because they didn't care where the talent came from.
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