2013 College Football


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Re: 2013 College Football

Postby Dixon » Wed Sep 18, 2013 9:48 pm

user4 wrote:
Dixon wrote:
Bruce Kritzler wrote:Bethune Cookman (3-0) at Florida St (2-0) this Sat.
At least they are keeping the $ in state.


Bethune Cookman is the king of HBCU football. Wouldn't it be something if they actually kept it close? They have the best back in the MEAC in Isidore Jackson.


Never say never , I'm amazed inthe last decade at how often big10 teams get taken by surprise by 1Aa teams like univ of nh ... Lightning strikes! .... just dont bet on it .


Miami beat BC 38-10 last season, that's respectable.

Savannah State played Oklahoma State, they lost...84-0..ouch~~~~~~
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Re: 2013 College Football

Postby user4 » Thu Sep 19, 2013 5:43 am

Dixon wrote:
user4 wrote:
Dixon wrote:
Bruce Kritzler wrote:Bethune Cookman (3-0) at Florida St (2-0) this Sat.
At least they are keeping the $ in state.


Bethune Cookman is the king of HBCU football. Wouldn't it be something if they actually kept it close? They have the best back in the MEAC in Isidore Jackson.


Never say never , I'm amazed inthe last decade at how often big10 teams get taken by surprise by 1Aa teams like univ of nh ... Lightning strikes! .... just dont bet on it .


Miami beat BC 38-10 last season, that's respectable.

Savannah State played Oklahoma State, they lost...84-0..ouch~~~~~~


A) BC and Miami are both ACC

B) Regarding OSU, makes me wonder, 1) what kind of athletic director allows his OSU cowboys to have a regular season game against "Savannah State". 2) After allowing the game to happen what kind of OSU coach allows his team to score 84 points against "Savannah State"! ... Those are felonies against civilization !
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Re: 2013 College Football

Postby Marlow » Thu Sep 19, 2013 7:10 am

user4 wrote:
Dixon wrote:Bethune Cookman is the king of HBCU football. Wouldn't it be something if they actually kept it close? They have the best back in the MEAC in Isidore Jackson.

Never say never , I'm amazed inthe last decade at how often big10 teams get taken by surprise by 1Aa teams like univ of nh ... Lightning strikes! .... just dont bet on it .

To be more precise, if this were any other FSU of the post-Bowden era, there would be some suspense as to the size of the blow-out, but Jameis Winston is proving to be the Real Deal and the 'Noles are thirsty for blood, having gorged on it for the entire 90s, and then being so mediocre in the 00s. Jimbo will have them whipped up and Winston is the guy they might be able to ride into Glory, if not this year, then soon.
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Re: 2013 College Football

Postby user4 » Thu Sep 19, 2013 9:41 am

user4 wrote:... but at some point the board of trustees through a new longhorn athletic director dont give Brown a next week .. the clock is ticking. As an old Texas governor used to say.. "stick a fork in 'em.. he's done"!.. meanwhile 600 miles north on the cool and open plains of Nebraska a certain Bo Pelini sweats..


user4 wrote:Bo no's ... lots of no's ...
http://insider.espn.go.com/blog/travis- ... ost?id=798


The "we support him" song is the opening scene in the first act of the "we cant wait to get rid of him" play... it has commenced...

http://espn.go.com/college-football/sto ... -bo-pelini
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Re: 2013 College Football

Postby Dixon » Thu Sep 19, 2013 11:08 am

user4

BC=Bethune Cookman

I'm guessing a lot of OSU backups got in the game, a little excited about playing.
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Re: 2013 College Football

Postby user4 » Thu Sep 19, 2013 11:14 am

Dixon wrote:user4

BC=Bethune Cookman

I'm guessing a lot of OSU backups got in the game, a little excited about playing.


Only to a devoted and sold out fan of the HBCU would BC == Bethune Anything !! Looks like Miami took it easy on them.

yeah, I have heard that from coaches, when a game is a blow out, the second string goes in but you cant tell a second stringer not to try and prove he should be first string... Same with the third string.
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Re: 2013 College Football

Postby Blues » Thu Sep 19, 2013 11:17 am

Dixon wrote:Wrapping up this SWAC situation.

Grambling is head and shoulders above the rest of those schools as far as NFL talent goes. Not that that is a surprise. The rest of the SWAC just so so (compared to other conferences)

Speaking of HBCU football.

I don't like to see this....

FAMU vs Ohio State
Bethune Cookman vs FSU
Savannah State vs Miami

This needs to be stopped.

I see the guys on the right scoring over 120 points combined while the guys on the left, hmmm...30? I'm probably being a little conservative with the 120.


I don't condone gambling, but you're a little more conservative than the Vegas bookies... As I write this, FAMU is a 50 point underdog at Ohio State, Bethune Cookman is a 40 point underdog at FSU, and Savannah State is a 60 point underdog at Miami, FL...
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Re: 2013 College Football

Postby user4 » Thu Sep 19, 2013 11:25 am

Blues wrote:
Dixon wrote:Wrapping up this SWAC situation.

Grambling is head and shoulders above the rest of those schools as far as NFL talent goes. Not that that is a surprise. The rest of the SWAC just so so (compared to other conferences)

Speaking of HBCU football.

I don't like to see this....

FAMU vs Ohio State
Bethune Cookman vs FSU
Savannah State vs Miami

This needs to be stopped.

I see the guys on the right scoring over 120 points combined while the guys on the left, hmmm...30? I'm probably being a little conservative with the 120.


I don't condone gambling, but you're a little more conservative than the Vegas bookies... As I write this, FAMU is a 50 point underdog at Ohio State, Bethune Cookman is a 40 point underdog at FSU, and Savannah State is a 60 point underdog at Miami, FL...


Ill take Savannah state to stay within 60 of Miami ! And if they dont you know what I think of the Miami coaching staff.
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Re: 2013 College Football

Postby lonewolf » Thu Sep 19, 2013 12:47 pm

user4 wrote:[B) Regarding OSU, makes me wonder, 1) what kind of athletic director allows his OSU cowboys to have a regular season game against "Savannah State". 2) After allowing the game to happen what kind of OSU coach allows his team to score 84 points against "Savannah State"! ... !


I am an Ok St loyalist and I was embarassed too. OSU should not have scheduled Savannah State, who willingly showed up for a payday.
The other hand, OSU played the bottom of the depth chart and, as user4 said, those guy want to move up.. I don't know what Gundy could have done except tell em to take a knee three times and punt... then he would have been accused of insulting Savannah State...
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Re: 2013 College Football

Postby Dixon » Thu Sep 19, 2013 11:37 pm

I'm watching Jackson State vs Texas Southern when in comes...DeFancy Jones...gotta love it :D
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Re: 2013 College Football

Postby Dixon » Fri Sep 20, 2013 12:44 pm

Tonight on one of the ESPN's it's Fresno State vs Boise, check out Fresno receiver Isaiah Burse, kid is amazing.
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Re: 2013 College Football

Postby user4 » Fri Sep 20, 2013 6:18 pm

Dixon wrote:Tonight on one of the ESPN's it's Fresno State vs Boise, check out Fresno receiver Isaiah Burse, kid is amazing.

Great First half ... Eye poping intensity out there!
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Re: 2013 College Football

Postby Dixon » Fri Sep 20, 2013 10:38 pm

user4 wrote:
Dixon wrote:Tonight on one of the ESPN's it's Fresno State vs Boise, check out Fresno receiver Isaiah Burse, kid is amazing.

Great First half ... Eye poping intensity out there!


The QB play..outstanding!
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Re: 2013 College Football

Postby jazzcyclist » Sat Sep 21, 2013 9:33 am

Dixon, don't you think it's ironic that North Dakota State is hosting this week's College Gameday in light of the debate we've had over the last week regarding the so-called big schools and little schools? Anyway, without hijacking my own thread again, here are some facts and trivia that I figured might interest some of the posters here:

- NFL Draft Picks by Year

    1966 Grambling 5 LSU 3
    1967 Grambling 4 LSU 4
    1968 Grambling 5 LSU 4
    1969 Grambling 8 LSU 4
    1970 Grambling 8 LSU 3
    1971 Grambling 8 LSU 3
    1972 Grambling 4 LSU 4
    1973 Grambling 4 LSU 2
    1974 Grambling 4 LSU 2

- The record for most players selected by the NFL in a single draft from a school in Mississippi is 11 from Jackson State in the 1968 draft, which is also more than any SEC school in a single draft. For comparison, the most NFL draft picks in a single year from Miami, Florida State, Florida, Alabama and LSU are 11, 10, 10, 9 and 9 respectively. In its last four years before integration, Alabama had 3 draft picks in 1968, 2 in 1969, 0 in 1970 and 1 in 1971.
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Re: 2013 College Football

Postby user4 » Sat Sep 21, 2013 10:05 am

jazzcyclist wrote:Dixon, don't you think it's ironic that North Dakota State is hosting this week's College Gameday in light of the debate we've had over the last week regarding the so-called big schools and little schools? Anyway, without hijacking my own thread again, here are some facts and trivia that I figured might interest some of the posters here:

- NFL Draft Picks by Year

    1966 Grambling 5 LSU 3
    1967 Grambling 4 LSU 4
    1968 Grambling 5 LSU 4
    1969 Grambling 8 LSU 4
    1970 Grambling 8 LSU 3
    1971 Grambling 8 LSU 3
    1972 Grambling 4 LSU 4
    1973 Grambling 4 LSU 2
    1974 Grambling 4 LSU 2

- The record for most players selected by the NFL in a single draft from a school in Mississippi is 11 from Jackson State in the 1968 draft, which is also more than any SEC school in a single draft. For comparison, the most NFL draft picks in a single year from Miami, Florida State, Florida, Alabama and LSU are 11, 10, 10, 9 and 9 respectively. In its last four years before integration, Alabama had 3 draft picks in 1968, 2 in 1969, 0 in 1970 and 1 in 1971.


That is interesting and it speaks volumes about the football talent at Grambling and Jackson State in the late 60s - early 70s. It may also speak volumes about the national mood and the right minded efforts that were made to quickly and effectively integrate the NFL in that time period.

There was a cultural wave across the country to integrate all institutions and the NFL was on the cutting edge of it. The NFL deserves a great deal of credit for making sure that men were judged not by the color of their skin but by their talents and skills. Make no mistake Grambling and Jackson State had the talent but there was also an attitude and a written and unwritten code that was designed to right past wrongs and it worked. Just a guess. Now if I had to guess who would win in a game in any given year Grambling or LSU, Id pick LSU. LSU was competitive with Bama in that era.

November 7, 1964 Birmingham, AL Alabama 17–9
November 6, 1965 Baton Rouge, LA Alabama 31–7
November 5, 1966 Birmingham, AL Alabama 21–0
November 11, 1967 Baton Rouge, LA Alabama 7–6
November 9, 1968 Birmingham, AL Alabama 16–7
November 8, 1969 Baton Rouge, LA LSU 20–15
November 7, 1970 Birmingham, AL LSU 14–9
November 6, 1971 Baton Rouge, LA Alabama 14–7
November 11, 1972 Birmingham, AL Alabama 35–21
November 22, 1973 Baton Rouge, LA Alabama 21–7
November 9, 1974 Birmingham, AL Alabama 30–0
November 9, 1975 Baton Rouge, LA Alabama 23–10
November 6, 1976 Birmingham, AL Alabama 28–17
November 5, 1977 Baton Rouge, LA Alabama 24–3
November 11, 1978 Birmingham, AL Alabama 31–10
November 10, 1979 Baton Rouge, LA Alabama 3–0

Imagine a 2013 college football game where guys are judged by their play on the field and not on grudges held against other people from events 56 years ago.
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Re: 2013 College Football

Postby Dixon » Sat Sep 21, 2013 10:45 am

jazzcyclist wrote:Dixon, don't you think it's ironic that North Dakota State is hosting this week's College Gameday in light of the debate we've had over the last week regarding the so-called big schools and little schools? Anyway, without hijacking my own thread again, here are some facts and trivia that I figured might interest some of the posters here:

- NFL Draft Picks by Year

    1966 Grambling 5 LSU 3
    1967 Grambling 4 LSU 4
    1968 Grambling 5 LSU 4
    1969 Grambling 8 LSU 4
    1970 Grambling 8 LSU 3
    1971 Grambling 8 LSU 3
    1972 Grambling 4 LSU 4
    1973 Grambling 4 LSU 2
    1974 Grambling 4 LSU 2

- The record for most players selected by the NFL in a single draft from a school in Mississippi is 11 from Jackson State in the 1968 draft, which is also more than any SEC school in a single draft. For comparison, the most NFL draft picks in a single year from Miami, Florida State, Florida, Alabama and LSU are 11, 10, 10, 9 and 9 respectively. In its last four years before integration, Alabama had 3 draft picks in 1968, 2 in 1969, 0 in 1970 and 1 in 1971.


I'm curious why Gameday wasn't in Stanford, I see this as a slap in the face of the Pac12.

Not that it isn't cool to showcase these small schools.

But, I see what you're saying, as we know it's the depth of quality athletes that is the huge difference between D-1 and the others....obviously.

My point about the HBCU schools is while Grambling/Jackson State had great success what about the rest of the a SWAC or the MEAC? So once ya got by Grambling and Jackson State;...now what? Give me some names out of Alcorn, Alabama State, St.Augustine, NCC, Norfolk St, Tuskeggee, Savannah State, Alabama A&M, Bethune Cookman. Total lack of quality depth on any one team.

The SEC was lilly white back then, hell hurdler Richmond Flowers was also the top SEC sprinter. While Grambling had Olympians Stone Johnson/Richard Stebbins. That translated to the football field....lack of speed/quicks.
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Re: 2013 College Football

Postby jazzcyclist » Sat Sep 21, 2013 11:15 am

user4 wrote:That is interesting and it speaks volumes about the football talent at Grambling and Jackson State in the late 60s. It may also speak volumes about the national mood and the right minded efforts that were made to quickly and effectively integrate the NFL.

There was a wave across the country to integrate all institutions and the NFL was on the cutting edge of it. Make no mistake Grambling and Jackson State had the talent but there was also an attitude and a written and unwritten code that was designed to right past wrongs and it worked. Just a guess, just a theory.

The truth is actually a lot simpler and less altruistic than that IMO. NFL owners wanted the best players regardless of what color they were, they weren't trying to right past wrongs, lest we forget that the lion's share of HBCU hall of famers played college football in those years.

As for Bear Bryant and the other SEC coaches, they knew the SEC was getting left behind in the mid-60's, but none of them felt they could take on the hardcore, segregationist politicians (eg. Wallace, Barnett, Maddox, etc.), not to mention the fan bases. Bryant had tried to encourage a few Black players to walk on prior to 1971, but they all inevitably left due to the hostility of players and fans who saw no reason for change due their inability to see into the future. After Alabama's 6-5 1969 season, Bryant decided it was time to take drastic measures, and that's when he called USC's John McKay and made a deal for him to bring his Trojans to Birmingham for the 1970 season opener, and as Paul Harvey would say, "You know the rest of the story". After the game, McKay said he walked to midfield to shake hands Bryant anticipating a bit of hostility from Bryant for embarrassing him on his home field, but instead Bryant embraced him heartedly and said, "Thank you mind friend". It's the general consensus that Bryant was the one SEC coach who had the stature that he could have integrated sooner using a more direct approach, a la Dean Smith, but supposedly Bryant had an aversion to politics and didn't want to spend that kind of political capital taking folks like George Wallace despite the fact that he would have likely prevailed.

user4 wrote:If I had to guess who would win in a game in any given year Grambling or LSU, Id pick LSU. LSU was competitive with Bama in that era.

One of my favorite historical what-if sports questions is what would have happened if Grambling of the glory years had played the SEC's best at that time? Obviously, there's no way an SEC team was going to schedule an HBCU in those days, but what if? Grambling did beat Oregon State in 1975, but the Beavers were one of the weakest teams of the PAC-10 back then and Grambling was already about five years past its prime.
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Re: 2013 College Football

Postby Dixon » Sat Sep 21, 2013 11:22 am

If we look at the 60's early 70's we'll see Grambling losing to North Dakota St, trading wins with Long Beach State, beating Fullerton State a couple times, beating Sacramento State. They'd have a hard time against SEC schools. I think the lines/QB play would be the big difference.

I do believe an All Star HBCU team could play with an All Star SEC team back when.
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Re: 2013 College Football

Postby jazzcyclist » Sat Sep 21, 2013 11:25 am

Dixon wrote:My point about the HBCU schools is while Grambling/Jackson State had great success what about the rest of the a SWAC or the MEAC? So once ya got by Grambling and Jackson State;...now what? Give me some names out of Alcorn, Alabama State, St.Augustine, NCC, Norfolk St, Tuskeggee, Savannah State, Alabama A&M, Bethune Cookman. Total lack of quality depth on any one team.

As I said earlier, I didn't want to derail the thread, I only provided the facts that I knew you were aware of but refused to provide. However, first you said that none of the HBCU's had depth during the pre-integration era, then you conceded that Grambling had depth but none of the other HBCU's did, and now you're conceding that Jackson State had depth also, but none of the others did. Of course I can debunk that myth just as easily as I've debunked your first two, but how about we start a separate thread for that, or do it via pm's so as not to hijack this thread any further.
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Re: 2013 College Football

Postby Dixon » Sat Sep 21, 2013 11:37 am

jazzcyclist wrote:
Dixon wrote:My point about the HBCU schools is while Grambling/Jackson State had great success what about the rest of the a SWAC or the MEAC? So once ya got by Grambling and Jackson State;...now what? Give me some names out of Alcorn, Alabama State, St.Augustine, NCC, Norfolk St, Tuskeggee, Savannah State, Alabama A&M, Bethune Cookman. Total lack of quality depth on any one team.

As I said earlier, I didn't want to derail the thread, I only provided the facts that I knew you were aware of but refused to provide. However, first you said that none of the HBCU's had depth during the pre-integration era, then you conceded that Grambling had depth but none of the other HBCU's did, and now you're conceding that Jackson State had depth also, but none of the others did. Of course I can debunk that myth just as easily as I've debunked your first two, but how about we start a separate thread for that, or do it via pm's so as not to hijack this thread any further.


Actually I was comparing the HBCU schools to Div I schools not just the SEC. I thought I made that clear. If we looked at USC,UCLA, ND, the Big10, SWC vs the HBCU in any era what would we see?

It's an interesting topic, we're talking football.

Jackson State had 14 players get drafted before 1973. Between 1950-1972 Alabama had 26.
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Re: 2013 College Football

Postby user4 » Sat Sep 21, 2013 11:47 am

jazzcyclist wrote:The truth is actually a lot simpler and less altruistic than that IMO. NFL owners wanted the best players regardless of what color they were, they weren't trying to right past wrongs, lest we forget that the lion's share of HBCU hall of famers played college football in those years.

As for Bear Bryant and the other SEC coaches, they knew the SEC was getting left behind in the mid-60's, but none of them felt they could take on the hardcore, segregationist politicians...


Alabama had 3 bad years 68 (8-3) 69(6-5) 70(6-5) and I dont know if Bear would have seen his own failings in those years as due simply and soley to not being integrated ? I doubt that. I dont think the racial divide was the sum total of Alabama's and Bear's problems at that time. Segregation built a sense of entitlement and privilege that made them uncompetitive and weak in morale and discipline. Adding black players could do allot more than giving you a few athletic bodies. I seriously doubt that this is all explainable by a meat market model. Of course without the examples of talent being there in the HBCU it would have been impossible to change.

jazzcyclist wrote:Bryant had tried to encourage a few Black players to walk on prior to 1971, but they all inevitably left due to the hostility of players and fans who saw no reason for change due their inability to see into the future. After Alabama's 6-5 1969 season, Bryant decided it was time to take drastic measures, and that's when he called USC's John McKay and made a deal for him to bring his Trojans to Birmingham for the 1970 season opener, ... After the game, McKay ..but instead Bryant embraced him heartedly and said, "Thank you mind friend". ....


Maybe Bear was doing his best for integration and it wasnt simply about improving his recruiting stats. Maybe he saw an opportunity to do something good and right. He won a few national championships after that but I dont think it was because of some level of black talent that he brought on the team, it was likely more so the culture and attitude of determined athletic achievement that those blacks brought to the team.


jazzcyclist wrote:One of my favorite historical what-if sports questions is what would have happened if Grambling of the glory years had played the SEC's best at that time? ...


Alabama won national championships from 61 through about 79 , The Bear integrated because it was the right thing to do. He was born in abject poverty as the son of a share cropper and he had seen people taken advantage of his whole life. Sorry to disagree but he did not integrate to gain a few athletic bodies. He had dumped plenty of athletic guys if the attitude didnt fit his model. He might have also done it because by then he saw his team needed a new attitude and morale in 1969. Something about judging men by the content of their character may have rang true to Bear.
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Re: 2013 College Football

Postby Dixon » Sat Sep 21, 2013 12:37 pm

I really do think a lot of what we saw back then was mostly about winning football games, the south caring more about winning than anything else. It was either come up to speed or lose.

Ok time to get back to 2013 for me.
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Re: 2013 College Football

Postby user4 » Sat Sep 21, 2013 1:09 pm

Dixon wrote:I really do think a lot of what we saw back then was mostly about winning football games, the south caring more about winning than anything else. It was either come up to speed or lose.

Ok time to get back to 2013 for me.


College football has the best commentators, Desmond Howard for president!
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Re: 2013 College Football

Postby jazzcyclist » Sat Sep 21, 2013 1:13 pm

User4, I used the Paul Harvey cliché about "knowing the rest of the story", but obviously you don't know the rest of the story. I wasn't projecting when I talked about Bear Bryant and the integration of the SEC, I was repeating what's been said in several documentaries and books about the topic. I'm not saying that all the SEC coaches were hardcore racists like Adolph Rupp, because some of them, including perhaps Bear Bryant, no doubt did see integration as a moral issue and not simply a competitive issue, but make no mistake, the competitive issue was the primary driving force behind Bear Bryant's decision to integrate his football team, thereby clearing the way for other less established SEC coaches to do the same. I once heard a radio interview with former Alabama running back Johnny Musso in which the interviewer asked him how the team reacted when Bear Bryant introduced Sam Cunningham to them in the locker room immediately after getting trounced by USC (Bryant asked McKay to borrow Cunningham for a few minutes when they shook hands after the game), and he said that they weren't too crazy about the idea before the game, but they definitely were afterwards. Anyway, you don't have to take my word for it, check out HBO's Breaking the Huddle: The Integration of College Football or CBS Sports' The Bear: The Legend of Coach Bryant and see for yourself.

I also vehemently disagree with your belief that Alabama could have still won three national championships in the 1970's with all-White rosters.
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Re: 2013 College Football

Postby user4 » Sat Sep 21, 2013 1:28 pm

jazzcyclist wrote:User4, I used the Paul Harvey cliché about "knowing the rest of the story", but obviously you don't know the rest of the story. I wasn't projecting when I talked about Bear Bryant and the integration of the SEC, I was repeating what's been said in several documentaries and books about the topic. I'm not saying that all the SEC coaches were hardcore racists like Adolph Rupp, because some of them, including perhaps Bear Bryant, no doubt did see integration as a moral issue and not simply a competitive issue, but make no mistake, the competitive issue was the primary driving force behind Bear Bryant's decision to integrate his football team, thereby clearing the way for other less established SEC coaches to do the same. I once heard a radio interview with former Alabama running back Johnny Musso in which the interviewer asked him how the team reacted when Bear Bryant introduced Sam Cunningham to them in the locker room immediately after getting trounced by USC (Bryant asked McKay to borrow Cunningham for a few minutes when they shook hands after the game), and he said that they weren't too crazy about the idea before the game, but they definitely were afterwards. Anyway, you don't have to take my word for it, check out HBO's Breaking the Huddle: The Integration of College Football or CBS Sports' The Bear: The Legend of Coach Bryant and see for yourself.

I also vehemently disagree with your belief that Alabama could have still won three national championships in the 1970's with all-White rosters.


I dont think they could have won national championships with all white rosters either, but I dont think that fact was due to a simple meat market recruiting model that you and Dixon are advocating. That is all I am saying. Players want to go to the best programs, great coaches want to coach the best to be the best, if you are recruiting only white players in 1970 what is the message going out about your program ? What does that do to your teams morale and culture ? Is that a model for success on the football field, in life. Bear probably saw his state and team as needing a serious dose of reality, they got it ! .. Bam ! He was back on top in 2-3 years time, do you really think it was the body parts of the black players he recruited in 71/72 that got him there ?

Bryant played end across from Don Hutson at Alabama. With the exception maybe of Bob Hayes, and that is a big maybe, no one transformed the professional football down field game like Hutson did. I dont know if I would take HBOs take on it as the whole story. Just one users humble and independent perspective on a manifold topic.
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Re: 2013 College Football

Postby Marlow » Sat Sep 21, 2013 2:18 pm

jazzcyclist wrote:perhaps Bear Bryant did see integration as a moral issue and not simply a competitive issue, but make no mistake, the competitive issue was the primary driving force behind Bear Bryant's decision to integrate his football team

That was indeed the reality of the situation.
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Re: 2013 College Football

Postby jazzcyclist » Sat Sep 21, 2013 4:21 pm

user4 wrote:if you are recruiting only white players in 1970 what is the message going out about your program ? What does that do to your teams morale and culture ? Is that a model for success on the football field, in life.

We're talking about Jim Crow-era Alabama. Many if not most White Southerners back then thought their segregated culture was superior to the integrated culture north of the Mason-Dixon line which many of them considered an abomination. You do realize that Alabama was integrated at the barrel of a federal gun, don't you? Since we just commemorated the 50th anniversary of the bombing of the 16th Street Baptist Church, perhaps a new thread is needed to discuss the realities of day-to-day life back then.
user4 wrote:Bear probably saw his state and team as needing a serious dose of reality, they got it ! .. Bam !

That's exactly what he was trying to do when he scheduled USC. He knew what was going to happen, and he also knew that to Alabama fans, winning trumped everything.

user4 wrote:He was back on top in 2-3 years time, do you really think it was the body parts of the black players he recruited in 71/72 that got him there ?

Well, let's see. He went 6-5 in 1969 and 1970. After four years of recruiting Black players, he went 11-1 in 1973, just missing out on winning a national championship after losing a one-point thriller to Notre Dame in the Sugar Bowl. You do the math.

user4 wrote:I dont know if I would take HBOs take on it as the whole story.

Would you take the word of the assistant coaches, contemporary coaches, players, administrators and sports writers who were close to Bryant during era, and who HBO and CBS interviewed for their documentaries?
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Re: 2013 College Football

Postby Blues » Sat Sep 21, 2013 4:58 pm

Marlow wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote:perhaps Bear Bryant did see integration as a moral issue and not simply a competitive issue, but make no mistake, the competitive issue was the primary driving force behind Bear Bryant's decision to integrate his football team

That was indeed the reality of the situation.


And along with those driving forces at the time, there might have been additional influences behind Alabama's decision to integrate.. It's difficult to tell, but is there a chance that legal issues may have also played a part?

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/news/story?id=5481453
Last edited by Blues on Sat Sep 21, 2013 5:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 2013 College Football

Postby user4 » Sat Sep 21, 2013 5:50 pm

jazzcyclist wrote:
user4 wrote:if you are recruiting only white players in 1970 what is the message going out about your program ? What does that do to your teams morale and culture ? Is that a model for success on the football field, in life.

We're talking about Jim Crow-era Alabama. Many if not most White Southerners back then thought their segregated culture was superior to the integrated culture north of the Mason-Dixon line which many of them considered an abomination. You do realize that Alabama was integrated at the barrel of a federal gun, don't you?

that was exactly my point, thanks for seeing it. The 1965 civil rights law was on the books, the clock was ticking.

jazz wrote:That's exactly what he was trying to do when he scheduled USC. He knew what was going to happen, and he also knew that to Alabama fans, winning trumped everything.


We agree.

user4 wrote:He was back on top in 2-3 years time, do you really think it was the body parts of the black players he recruited in 71/72 that got him there ?

jazz wrote:Well, let's see. He went 6-5 in 1969 and 1970. After four years of recruiting Black players, he went 11-1 in 1973, just missing out on winning a national championship after losing a one-point thriller to Notre Dame in the Sugar Bowl. You do the math.


So you do think it was just the added black bodies that made that difference, ok we have a n honest disagreement. The math is not complicated, you can do it too. By your logic prior sec national titles were due to segregation.


Edit: finally got to a keyboard, regret the prior mess.
Last edited by user4 on Sun Sep 22, 2013 5:11 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: 2013 College Football

Postby Blues » Sat Sep 21, 2013 6:28 pm

jazzcyclist wrote:Well, let's see. He went 6-5 in 1969 and 1970. After four years of recruiting Black players, he went 11-1 in 1973, just missing out on winning a national championship after losing a one-point thriller to Notre Dame in the Sugar Bowl. You do the math.


But after the 1969 and 1970 seasons, he also went 11-1 in 1971 with one black starter (final poll AP #4, UPI #2), and 10-2 in 1972 (final poll AP #7, UPI #4).

There's no question that having black players eventually made a huge difference, but the turnaround immediately after 1970 may have had more to do with Bryant bringing Darrell Royal in from Texas for a short visit prior to the 1971 season for the sole purpose of teaching Bryant and the Alabama coaching staff the wishbone offense, which Alabama then implemented. A year after that famous loss to USC at home in 1970 and a 6-5 season, Alabama beat USC on the road, and was undefeated until they lost to #1 Nebraska in the Orange Bowl. Granted, by 1973 it seems that Alabama had 3 black starters on offense, 3 on defense, and one starter as a kick returner, but the '71 and '72 seasons were big improvements over the previous two 6-5 seasons also.
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Re: 2013 College Football

Postby jazzcyclist » Sat Sep 21, 2013 7:58 pm

Blues wrote: But after the 1969 and 1970 seasons, he also went 11-1 in 1971 with little if any black starters (final poll AP #4, UPI #2), and 10-2 in 1972 (final poll AP #7, UPI #4)... There's no question that having black players eventually made a huge difference, but the turnaround after 1970 may have had more to do with Bryant bringing Darrell Royal in from Texas for a short visit prior to the 1971 season for the sole purpose of teaching Bryant and the Alabama coaching staff the wishbone offense, which Alabama then implemented. A year after that famous loss to USC at home in 1970 and a 6-5 season, Alabama beat USC on the road, and was undefeated until they lost to #1 Nebraska in the Orange Bowl.

I agree with this. Alabama's unveiling of the wishbone in 1971 was huge and it took a while for other schools to figure it out. Royal's offensive coordinator Emory Bellard is credited with inventing the wishbone at Texas in 1968. Coincidentally, about the same time Royal was schooling the Alabama coaching staff on the wishbone, he was also schooling Oklahoma offensive coordinator Barry Switzer on it, after which the Sooners promptly became the most prolific rushing offense in NCAA history, averaging 472 rushing yards per game in 1971, a record which still stands today. That was probably a big mistake on Royal's part, since after the Sooners adopted the wishbone, Royal never beat them again. Can you imagine one of today's big-time college coaches being that helpful to a conference rival?

By the way, which current college head coach is credited with developing the similarly ground-breaking zone read offense which is used in both college and the pros today, and where did he invent it? (Hint: He coaches in the PAC-10)
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Re: 2013 College Football

Postby Dixon » Sat Sep 21, 2013 9:16 pm

I remember when we first started seeing black players at BYU. They were cornerbacks and receivers.

Rich Rodriquez the daddy of the zone read.
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Re: 2013 College Football

Postby user4 » Sat Sep 21, 2013 10:48 pm

stanford was impressive against very good asu team ... Il write more on our offtopic later ... Not possible on a phone... Need proper keyboard.
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Re: 2013 College Football

Postby jazzcyclist » Sun Sep 22, 2013 4:41 am

Dixon wrote:Rich Rodriquez the daddy of the zone read.

Bingo! I would have been disappointed if you didn't know the answer, Dixon.

I think Alabama should lose some first place after its recent underwhelming performances.
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Re: 2013 College Football

Postby Marlow » Sun Sep 22, 2013 6:41 am

jazzcyclist wrote:I think Alabama should lose some first place after its recent underwhelming performances.

Because they did NOT humiliate their opponent

77-7 (Miami)
76-0 (TOSU)
72-0 (Louisville)
70-7 (Baylor)

?

I'd give them my vote for not doing it.
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Re: 2013 College Football

Postby user4 » Sun Sep 22, 2013 6:55 am

Marlow wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote:I think Alabama should lose some first place after its recent underwhelming performances.

Because they did NOT humiliate their opponent

77-7 (Miami)
76-0 (TOSU)
72-0 (Louisville)
70-7 (Baylor)

?

I'd give them my vote for not doing it.


here here !!

Although, along with Oregon, there is also Clemson, FSU and Stanford that all look capable of
playing smash mouth with Alabama.
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Re: 2013 College Football

Postby jazzcyclist » Sun Sep 22, 2013 7:24 am

Marlow wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote:I think Alabama should lose some first place after its recent underwhelming performances.

Because they did NOT humiliate their opponent

77-7 (Miami)
76-0 (TOSU)
72-0 (Louisville)
70-7 (Baylor)

?

I'd give them my vote for not doing it.

I don't give teams credit for running up the score, but I do give them credit for dominating inferior opponents. If the score was 31-0 at halftime, and then Nick Saban called off the dogs, I would agree with you. Under those circumstance, I would equate it to a 62-0 final score. However, the score was 17-6 at the end of the third quarter. Clearly, Alabama didn't dominate an inferior opponent in a manner expected of the #1 team. Back in 2003, when Saban coached LSU to the national championship, he took the #2 ranked Tigers into a game against Louisiana Tech, led 49-3 at halftime, called off the dogs, and ending up winning 49-10. That's how great teams dominate inferior opponents with class.
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Re: 2013 College Football

Postby Marlow » Sun Sep 22, 2013 7:40 am

jazzcyclist wrote:Alabama didn't dominate an inferior opponent in a manner expected of the #1 team.

Bama did the same thing Stanford did against an out-manned Army team last week - play their cards very close to the vest. Sabin gave them a very bland game-plan: no wrinkles, no new plays, no defensive scheme to stifle the opponent. They played vanilla football, so they wouldn't tip off stiffer opponents in coming weeks. He expected Bama to win off sheer talent and they did. The object is to win and they did. Style points are for figure skating.
P.S. I don't even like Bama at all.
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Re: 2013 College Football

Postby jazzcyclist » Sun Sep 22, 2013 7:53 am

Marlow wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote:Alabama didn't dominate an inferior opponent in a manner expected of the #1 team.

Bama did the same thing Stanford did against an out-manned Army team last week - play their cards very close to the vest. Sabin gave them a very bland game-plan: no wrinkles, no new plays, no defensive scheme to stifle the opponent. They played vanilla football, so they wouldn't tip off stiffer opponents in coming weeks. He expected Bama to win off sheer talent and they did. The object is to win and they did. Style points are for figure skating.
P.S. I don't even like Bama at all.

If the Rams were good, I might go along with you, but all indications are that the Rams are as weak as they been for several years. No matter how you spin it, there's no excuse for the #1 team only being up 17-6 after three quarters on a team as inferior as Colorado State. Let's see how many pollsters agree with me.
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Re: 2013 College Football

Postby Marlow » Sun Sep 22, 2013 9:25 am

jazzcyclist wrote:If the Rams were good, I might go along with you, but all indications are that the Rams are as weak as they been for several years.

So, because the Rams played their hearts out, and Bama phoned it in with virtually no game plan except to go with what has worked in the past, which obviously CSU schemed for, you criticize them? It was essentially a bye week for Sabin and he treated it as such. I have no respect for a coach who has to pile it on. I went back 5 years (how long Stanford has been good in this iteration) and the worst score I see is
57-3 San Jose State in a season opening game, where you do have to fire all the cylinders.
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