5 More Jamaican positives [and now Damar Robinson]


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Re: 5 More Jamaican positives [Simpson & Powell big names]

Postby tm71 » Tue Jul 16, 2013 11:11 am

Tuariki wrote:
toyracer wrote:Some of the news media is going way over board in their reporting. How does a small bottle of 50 Aleve become "50 different types of medicine/drugs"???

http://d3j5vwomefv46c.cloudfront.net/ph ... 886570.jpg

Aleve and 5-Hour Energy. That is what Asafa had in his room. Which, by the way, was not "raided".

Paul Doyle asked WADA to initiate the raid on the trainer's room. That is where the bulk medication etc was found. But of course the truth isn't as sexy as news media would like it to be.

Same reporters who told the world about the drug factory in Oscar Pistorius' bedroom.


to tell u the truth i would trust the journalists less than anyone else involved !
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Re: 5 More Jamaican positives [Simpson & Powell big names]

Postby Flumpy » Tue Jul 16, 2013 11:57 am

bambam wrote:What I'm getting at, guys, with a bunch of these posts, is that the anti-doping crusade has gone over the line.


I don't think it's gone anywhere near the line.

Not even close.
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Re: 5 More Jamaican positives [Simpson & Powell big names]

Postby toyracer » Tue Jul 16, 2013 12:39 pm

Flumpy wrote:
bambam wrote:What I'm getting at, guys, with a bunch of these posts, is that the anti-doping crusade has gone over the line.


I don't think it's gone anywhere near the line.

Not even close.


You don't think that less time should be spent going after almost meaningless stimulants and more effort concentrated on substances that actually enhance performance? Not better to spend money testing at times when hard core substances are actually being used, instead of pursuing "gotcha" moments for media hype so as to justify the program?
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Re: 5 More Jamaican positives [Simpson & Powell big names]

Postby eldanielfire » Tue Jul 16, 2013 12:53 pm

toyracer wrote:
Flumpy wrote:
bambam wrote:What I'm getting at, guys, with a bunch of these posts, is that the anti-doping crusade has gone over the line.


I don't think it's gone anywhere near the line.

Not even close.


You don't think that less time should be spent going after almost meaningless stimulants and more effort concentrated on substances that actually enhance performance? Not better to spend money testing at times when hard core substances are actually being used, instead of pursuing "gotcha" moments for media hype so as to justify the program?


Whose to say they aren't spending money going after the big rugs? However when you do a doping test for a range of substances I doubt it really drains more resources away from testing for the biggies.
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Re: 5 More Jamaican positives [Simpson & Powell big names]

Postby 26mi235 » Tue Jul 16, 2013 1:42 pm

toyracer wrote:
Flumpy wrote:
bambam wrote:What I'm getting at, guys, with a bunch of these posts, is that the anti-doping crusade has gone over the line.


I don't think it's gone anywhere near the line.

Not even close.


You don't think that less time should be spent going after almost meaningless stimulants and more effort concentrated on substances that actually enhance performance? Not better to spend money testing at times when hard core substances are actually being used, instead of pursuing "gotcha" moments for media hype so as to justify the program?


You have to remember the difference between religion and other ways of approaching things. All arbitrary rules means you are a sinner to be cast out for a long time, even if the rules change the next year and they decide that, yes, that substance does not particularly help so it is no longer banned.
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Re: More Jamaican positives [split] [Simpson one]

Postby gh » Tue Jul 16, 2013 3:53 pm

toyracer wrote:....
On a personal note, that's what has always been puzzling to me about the WADA code. WADA says, in effect, "yes, you can use this when not competing but if we find traces of it when you compete then you are busted".


A drug code that stopped people from using everyday cold remedies and the like completely would never be accepted. Nor should it.

If something has a transitory effect it makes no sense to ban it other than during competition.
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Re: 5 More Jamaican positives [Simpson & Powell big names]

Postby jamboy » Tue Jul 16, 2013 8:49 pm

http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=NqGsp8_x ... qGsp8_x7H8


Asafa Powell's coach reveals the true story
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Re: 5 More Jamaican positives [Simpson & Powell big names]

Postby shivfan » Wed Jul 17, 2013 2:03 am

"I refuse to believe that this was a simple mistake. I can't buy that. It was too easy to find out about this guy and there were so many signs you could follow, without even knowing much, that said leave this guy alone." While not excusing the sprinter, who he insists was cautioned about the trainer, Francis has thrown the majority of the blame squarely at the feet of Doyle, who he accused, along with Powell, of constantly looking to circumvent the rules of the club. "I told him I did not want this person around my training sessions. I told him I don't trust people from Canada because they are usually quacks. The person who he says recommended this guy is not good. I told him we would find someone else. The Canadians have a bad reputation," Francis said. "He was at Asafa's house, brought to Jamaica by Doyle. I cannot understand how this was done without the reputation and background of this guy being unveiled. To me, the big question is why did he send this person, who I am told is a disciple of Dr (Anthony) Galea, who was himself banned from the USA for taking drugs across the border. How could this person have been sent to live at Asafa's house? How can a manager get away with behaviour like this?"

http://jamaica-gleaner.com/gleaner/2013 ... orts3.html
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Re: 5 More Jamaican positives [Simpson & Powell big names]

Postby Flumpy » Wed Jul 17, 2013 4:55 am

jamboy wrote:http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=NqGsp8_x7H8&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DNqGsp8_x7H8

Asafa Powell's coach reveals the true story


Asafa Powell's coach reveals his version of the story.
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Re: 5 More Jamaican positives [Simpson & Powell big names]

Postby HopStepJump » Wed Jul 17, 2013 5:27 am

And the game of "cover your ass" is fully underway, sports fans.
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Re: 5 More Jamaican positives [Simpson & Powell big names]

Postby Alucard » Wed Jul 17, 2013 5:52 am

Flumpy wrote:
jamboy wrote:http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=NqGsp8_x7H8&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DNqGsp8_x7H8

Asafa Powell's coach reveals the true story


Asafa Powell's coach reveals his version of the story.



Toyracer coming to get you now :D
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Re: 5 More Jamaican positives [Simpson & Powell big names]

Postby lexvid » Wed Jul 17, 2013 6:02 am

Having lived through Ben Johnson's era and the heart breaking Dubin inquiry, I get tired of hearing athletes talk about sabotage or blaming others for their misfortunes. High profile stars like Asafa and Sherone must take responsibility for their own actions.

Casual fans don't believe most of the WR are legitimate anyways and positive tests from track athletes help reinforce their suspicions you can't run lightning fast and be clean.

It's a slippery slope and Ato would have you believe some things are minor but when 99% of the planet has no need for these stimulants/ PED's in their every day lives then why should athletes? At least Donovan seems to have the attitude I agree with.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/athletics/23322223

As far as the Canadian trainer, here is their response. Given the spate of recent high profile positive tests from Jamaica, I find it deliciously, ironic that Francis is stereo typing Canadians by saying " I don't trust people from Canada" and " Canadians have a bad reputation". Really? So a "Canadian" is the reason behind every positive test to ever come out of Jamaica?! What nonsense.

http://www.thestar.com/sports/amateur/2 ... tar.com%2F

As long as money and high stakes are involved in all sport, athletes will try and find a way to get an edge.
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Re: 5 More Jamaican positives [Simpson & Powell big names]

Postby toyracer » Wed Jul 17, 2013 6:19 am

eldanielfire wrote:
toyracer wrote:
Flumpy wrote:
bambam wrote:What I'm getting at, guys, with a bunch of these posts, is that the anti-doping crusade has gone over the line.


I don't think it's gone anywhere near the line.

Not even close.


You don't think that less time should be spent going after almost meaningless stimulants and more effort concentrated on substances that actually enhance performance? Not better to spend money testing at times when hard core substances are actually being used, instead of pursuing "gotcha" moments for media hype so as to justify the program?


Whose to say they aren't spending money going after the big rugs? However when you do a doping test for a range of substances I doubt it really drains more resources away from testing for the biggies.


My point is that out-of-competition testing is where the attention should be concentrated, in the period between the end of one season and beginning of the next, when the hard core substances are most likely to be used.

There are two tests that are conducted; out-of-competition and in-competition. The substances that are illegal at all times are the ones that efforts should be concentrated on. In-competition stimulant tests are little "gotcha" moments used to justify the testing program. That's why they are pounced upon and treated as if they are equal in offence stature, i.e all are referred to as "doping", while the very WADA code says that they are not.
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Re: 5 More Jamaican positives [Simpson & Powell big names]

Postby toyracer » Wed Jul 17, 2013 6:21 am

Alucard wrote:
Flumpy wrote:
jamboy wrote:http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=NqGsp8_x7H8&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DNqGsp8_x7H8

Asafa Powell's coach reveals the true story


Asafa Powell's coach reveals his version of the story.


Toyracer coming to get you now :D


Nope, not at all. There are going to be many sides of this story, we will hear them all. Somehow we have to sift through them and, hopefully, discern the truth.
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Re: 5 More Jamaican positives [Simpson & Powell big names]

Postby rudebwoy21 » Wed Jul 17, 2013 6:45 am

I think the media has done a terrible job with the manner in which they put information out there. I think 90% individuals believe that Asafa and Sherone are cheaters using steroids i mean if you check most of the news sources online, they are saying that the athletes were caught using steroids. The media should not be only use to sell stories i think its a responsibility for them to educate people on the difference between stimulants and steroids. I mean most stimulants do not improve performance. An athlete should not suffer the consequences of losing there livelihood over use of none performance stimulants that the media insensitively push out to public as Steroids/PED.

I agree with Mr Francis, i think WADA is contributing the killing of the sports because they have not been finding the real cheaters. I mean whenever an athlete is found to have been tested for a stimulant they make it a big deal to prove that they are doing something when in truth and in fact stimulants are not that big of a deal. When the media is finish publishing the information the damage has already been done and reputations have been lost. Even when the athlete only get a slap on the wrist, people see them as cheaters, endorsements are lost, fan base is gone, the value of an athlete is reduce.
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Re: 5 More Jamaican positives [Simpson & Powell big names]

Postby Alucard » Wed Jul 17, 2013 7:01 am

rudebwoy21 wrote:I think the media has done a terrible job with the manner in which they put information out there. I think 90% individuals believe that Asafa and Sherone are cheaters using steroids i mean if you check most of the news sources online, they are saying that the athletes were caught using steroids. The media should not be only use to sell stories i think its a responsibility for them to educate people on the difference between stimulants and steroids. I mean most stimulants do not improve performance. An athlete should not suffer the consequences of losing there livelihood over use of none performance stimulants that the media insensitively push out to public as Steroids/PED.

I agree with Mr Francis, i think WADA is contributing the killing of the sports because they have not been finding the real cheaters. I mean whenever an athlete is found to have been tested for a stimulant they make it a big deal to prove that they are doing something when in truth and in fact stimulants are not that big of a deal. When the media is finish publishing the information the damage has already been done and reputations have been lost. Even when the athlete only get a slap on the wrist, people see them as cheaters, endorsements are lost, fan base is gone, the value of an athlete is reduce.



Not just the media but us as well, we did 17 pages on the vcb thing most of which now seems to be speculation. But the media love the sensationalism including the Jamaican media
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Re: 5 More Jamaican positives [Simpson & Powell big names]

Postby eldanielfire » Wed Jul 17, 2013 7:31 am

In a new twist of Francis' statements, it seems Powell's new Canadian coach is saying he's not to blame and supplements where only recommended by him was safe stuff and the Jamaicans were taking stuff on top he didn't recomend:


http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/athletics/23342680
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Re: 5 More Jamaican positives [Simpson & Powell big names]

Postby run4urlyfe » Wed Jul 17, 2013 8:09 am

eldanielfire wrote:In a new twist of Francis' statements, it seems Powell's new Canadian coach is saying he's not to blame and supplements where only recommended by him was safe stuff and the Jamaicans were taking stuff on top he didn't recomend:


http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/athletics/23342680


So Sherone and Asafa tested positive for the same stimulant? They have never tested positive before and wait until they are damn near grandpa and grandma to get matching positives? Right now this guy seems like the most likely link. In time though if he is not it will come out. If he is the one responsible however he should get the brunt of the punishment.
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Re: 5 More Jamaican positives [Simpson & Powell big names]

Postby shivfan » Sat Jul 20, 2013 1:49 am

On the BBC feed for the Monaco DL meet, Colin Jackson was speculating that the stimulant concerned was not a serious one, and he didn't expect Asafa and Sherone to get no more than a six-month ban, if as much as that....

Is not me say so - is Colin Jackson! Don't shoot the messenger....
8-)
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Re: 5 More Jamaican positives [Simpson & Powell big names]

Postby uakari » Sat Jul 20, 2013 6:57 am

was this posted, that the 4th named athlete was a DT named smikle...
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Re: 5 More Jamaican positives [Simpson & Powell big names]

Postby Smoke » Sat Jul 20, 2013 7:49 am

:| just waterboard the infidels! How dare these folks try to be at their optimal levels! I mean you see those F1 cars filling up with 87 octane during those pit stops. You see those Ferrari's at the corner mechanics. 8-)

Don't take anything? Just a ridiculous position to even pontificate on. And as long as we allow this elementary (as in basic) mentality to drive our narrative, we will face further deterioration of our reputation. You don't watch car races wondering why they don't use the gas in your car in their high performance cars. The same applies here. It is a lie, no matter who says it, that these athletes can do this without supplementing their diets. Our foods do not have the levels in them, and our life styles damn sure don't optimize anything. So to expouse or even think taking nothing is viable is a fantasy.
There must be better information, better quotes from those in the sport, in order to educate everyone! Not just joe blow. Athletes claiming holy high ground need to stop the cya tactics. It can happen to everyone, easily! It doesn't take a stranger, or new guy. It takes something as simple as a familiar product in another country, formulated under different rules. Or a benign protein drink having trace amounts of a substance that don't require listing, and build up over time. Btw, both cases above resulted in 2 year bans for a number of athletes.
We can't keep labeling everything doping! It's killing us. There are too many variables at play.

Someone said, these athletes are cheating their competitors. Not necessarily. Optimizing my body isn't cheating anyone else. It is making sure I'm the best I can possibly be to step out there and give all I have. And so are the other 7 lanes I'm lining up against.
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Re: 5 More Jamaican positives [Simpson & Powell big names]

Postby toyracer » Sat Jul 20, 2013 8:13 am

shivfan wrote:On the BBC feed for the Monaco DL meet, Colin Jackson was speculating that the stimulant concerned was not a serious one, and he didn't expect Asafa and Sherone to get no more than a six-month ban, if as much as that....

Is not me say so - is Colin Jackson! Don't shoot the messenger....
8-)


He's not the only one, the head of Swiss anti-doping said the same thing at the beginning of this week.

He's right. First of all, it's a stimulant, that in itself tells us that the infraction isn't high up on the WADA scale. Second, there is Jamaican precedent. 10 athletes have been caught first time for a stimulant, their average ban is 5.1 months. Of course, the rabid media lynch mob doesn't care about details, it's just "drugs drugs drugs, dope dope dope" to them.
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Re: 5 More Jamaican positives [Simpson & Powell big names]

Postby Tuariki » Sat Jul 20, 2013 3:44 pm

toyracer wrote:Second, there is Jamaican precedent. 10 athletes have been caught first time for a stimulant, their average ban is 5.1 months. Of course, the rabid media lynch mob doesn't care about details, it's just "drugs drugs drugs, dope dope dope" to them.

Given the numbers ration (large number of busts, small population) it seems to suggest that while Jamaican sprinters may well be massively endowed in the physical attributes department perhaps that was at the expense of the brain department. You would think they would have learned from the first offenders about the dangers of using stimulants and supplements. If this is the case their bans should be doubled for being idiots.
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Re: 5 More Jamaican positives [Simpson & Powell big names]

Postby toyracer » Sat Jul 20, 2013 9:21 pm

Tuariki wrote:
toyracer wrote:Second, there is Jamaican precedent. 10 athletes have been caught first time for a stimulant, their average ban is 5.1 months. Of course, the rabid media lynch mob doesn't care about details, it's just "drugs drugs drugs, dope dope dope" to them.

Given the numbers ration (large number of busts, small population) it seems to suggest that while Jamaican sprinters may well be massively endowed in the physical attributes department perhaps that was at the expense of the brain department. You would think they would have learned from the first offenders about the dangers of using stimulants and supplements. If this is the case their bans should be doubled for being idiots.


Aren't you presuming quite a few things with that statement? Inadvertent use doesn't factor in?
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Re: 5 More Jamaican positives [Simpson & Powell big names]

Postby Tuariki » Sun Jul 21, 2013 12:13 am

Presumption. Yep. I am presuming there is a hell of a lot of inadvertent consumption of banned substances by Jamaican high performance athletes, at what appears to be a much higher rate than other countries.
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Re: 5 More Jamaican positives [Simpson & Powell big names]

Postby pavlik » Sun Jul 21, 2013 2:56 am

Can anyone tell me if methylsynephrine is a same as a synephrine contained in fat burning products? I bought some pills and do not know if I can take them.. :-/
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Re: 5 More Jamaican positives [Simpson & Powell big names]

Postby toyracer » Mon Jul 22, 2013 8:52 am

Tuariki wrote:Presumption. Yep. I am presuming there is a hell of a lot of inadvertent consumption of banned substances by Jamaican high performance athletes, at what appears to be a much higher rate than other countries.


Distinctions between infractions make no difference to you?

So you're comfortable making sweeping statements, lumping Yohan Blake,
Marvin Anderson, Sheri-Ann Brooks, Allodin Fothergill & Landford Spence, all of who were proven to ingest from a mislabelled sports drink, together with more serious infractions just to arrive at the "much higher" rate?
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Re: 5 More Jamaican positives [Simpson & Powell big names]

Postby batonless relay » Mon Jul 22, 2013 9:18 am

toyracer wrote:
Tuariki wrote:Presumption. Yep. I am presuming there is a hell of a lot of inadvertent consumption of banned substances by Jamaican high performance athletes, at what appears to be a much higher rate than other countries.


Distinctions between infractions make no difference to you?

So you're comfortable making sweeping statements, lumping , all of who were proven to ingest from a mislabelled sports drink, together with more serious infractions just to arrive at the "much higher" rate?

If he isn't comfortable making those statements I certainly am. The idea that we shouldn't punish athletes for things that are NOT impossible to NEVER have in their system is ridiculous. It's IRRELEVANT that the substance was "mislabeled" (it wasn't, it just used a different name that wasn't pharmacological in the case of the OTHER Jamaica 5, iirc); the IOC/WADA and nearly everyone else has says that supplements are a risk specifically due to these types of actions, don't take them. Ever. They [Yohan Blake, Marvin Anderson, Sheri-Ann Brooks, Allodin Fothergill & Landford Spence] took em. EFF em, They assumed the risk!

Why upend the system when they were caught doing exactly what they were warned NOT TO DO? It's not like this is a new case or circumstance? They tried to thread the needle and couldn't; nothing to see here.
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Re: 5 More Jamaican positives [Simpson & Powell big names]

Postby booond » Mon Jul 22, 2013 10:03 am

batonless relay wrote:
toyracer wrote:
Tuariki wrote:Presumption. Yep. I am presuming there is a hell of a lot of inadvertent consumption of banned substances by Jamaican high performance athletes, at what appears to be a much higher rate than other countries.


Distinctions between infractions make no difference to you?

So you're comfortable making sweeping statements, lumping , all of who were proven to ingest from a mislabelled sports drink, together with more serious infractions just to arrive at the "much higher" rate?

If he isn't comfortable making those statements I certainly am. The idea that we shouldn't punish athletes for things that are NOT impossible to NEVER have in their system is ridiculous. It's IRRELEVANT that the substance was "mislabeled" (it wasn't, it just used a different name that wasn't pharmacological in the case of the OTHER Jamaica 5, iirc); the IOC/WADA and nearly everyone else has says that supplements are a risk specifically due to these types of actions, don't take them. Ever. They [Yohan Blake, Marvin Anderson, Sheri-Ann Brooks, Allodin Fothergill & Landford Spence] took em. EFF em, They assumed the risk!

Why upend the system when they were caught doing exactly what they were warned NOT TO DO? It's not like this is a new case or circumstance? They tried to thread the needle and couldn't; nothing to see here.


While I might be slightly more empathetic than Mr. Relay, I do have to agree that we're at a point in time where the mistaken ingestion excuse rings very hollow.
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Re: 5 More Jamaican positives [Simpson & Powell big names]

Postby no one » Mon Jul 22, 2013 10:22 am

On a Saturday morning @ ~6:30 I was driving my brother to the airport. Not more than a mile or so from my house, on a slight incline, I was stopped by a cop who was setting up a speed trap - budget boondoggle for the weekend. The speed limit was 25 mph - still is.

I had looked at my speedometer just a minute or so before and saw I was goin 30 mph. The cop did the normal "show me your license insurance etc..." I asked him reason for being stopped. He said I "was 'speeding' - going 32 mph - over the 25 limit." I said "you must be kidding, there is not another vehicle in sight. There's no oxygen in the air" - he said "hey the limit is 25 - 32 is not 25." He didn't appreciate my oxygen comment.

I hate it when that happens - and I hated having to pay the $225. And I still don't think it was 'right" but it was legal - which is not fair ... etc etc
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Re: 5 More Jamaican positives [Simpson & Powell big names]

Postby Tuariki » Mon Jul 22, 2013 10:42 am

You knew, they knew. As they say, do the crime, pay the fine :(
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Re: 5 More Jamaican positives [Simpson & Powell big names]

Postby batonless relay » Mon Jul 22, 2013 10:59 am

no one wrote:...And I still don't think it was 'right" but it was legal - which is not fair ... etc etc


[redacted]

With the PR damage to the sport for a "6 month stimulant" being the same as a 2-year steroid, I say the punishment to the athlete should be commensurate with the damage that athletes recklessness does to our sport. Since long after these athletes have served their bans and returned the sport still has to deal with questions about their prior misjudgements, we should just ban them for life on the first offense, any offense, and never worry about them again. The end result will be the equivalent of a "whatever happened to...[insert promising star here]"
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Re: 5 More Jamaican positives [Simpson & Powell big names]

Postby Tuariki » Mon Jul 22, 2013 11:04 am

Everyone should read "anti-doping Puritanism ruining sport" on front page.
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Re: 5 More Jamaican positives [Simpson & Powell big names]

Postby 26mi235 » Mon Jul 22, 2013 11:12 am

batonless relay wrote:
toyracer wrote:Distinctions between infractions make no difference to you?

So you're comfortable making sweeping statements, lumping , all of who were proven to ingest from a mislabelled sports drink, together with more serious infractions just to arrive at the "much higher" rate?

If he isn't comfortable making those statements I certainly am. The idea that we shouldn't punish athletes for things that are NOT impossible to NEVER have in their system is ridiculous.


Luckily, your position will not pass a combination of legal and administrative muster.

Under your rules, it would be enough for someone to spike an athlete's intake (possibly even of air) and make them ineligible for life. Accountants are not banned for life for making a mistake on a form. Students are not banned for life for cheating once. Society, in general, does not stand for such draconian approaches, at least in this part of the world.
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Re: 5 More Jamaican positives [Simpson & Powell big names]

Postby batonless relay » Mon Jul 22, 2013 11:29 am

26mi235 wrote:
batonless relay wrote:
toyracer wrote:Distinctions between infractions make no difference to you?

So you're comfortable making sweeping statements, lumping , all of who were proven to ingest from a mislabelled sports drink, together with more serious infractions just to arrive at the "much higher" rate?

If he isn't comfortable making those statements I certainly am. The idea that we shouldn't punish athletes for things that are NOT impossible to NEVER have in their system is ridiculous.


Luckily, your position will not pass a combination of legal and administrative muster.

Under your rules, it would be enough for someone to spike an athlete's intake (possibly even of air) and make them ineligible for life. Accountants are not banned for life for making a mistake on a form. Students are not banned for life for cheating once. Society, in general, does not stand for such draconian approaches, at least in this part of the world.

26, you're a big sports fan. What happens to athletes after they've been caught point fixing? Are they usually let back into the sport? How successful have they been suing for their return? All throughout sports and life there are things you only get to do once. We both know that so let's not use that as the basis for your argument.
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Re: 5 More Jamaican positives [Simpson & Powell big names]

Postby toyracer » Mon Jul 22, 2013 11:54 am

batonless relay wrote:
no one wrote:...And I still don't think it was 'right" but it was legal - which is not fair ... etc etc


[redacted]

With the PR damage to the sport for a "6 month stimulant" being the same as a 2-year steroid, I say the punishment to the athlete should be commensurate with the damage that athletes recklessness does to our sport. Since long after these athletes have served their bans and returned the sport still has to deal with questions about their prior misjudgements, we should just ban them for life on the first offense, any offense, and never worry about them again. The end result will be the equivalent of a "whatever happened to...[insert promising star here]"


So you propose that the sanction fit the publicity?

With today's "reporting" practises, people will end up banned retroactive to the day they were born. Perfect case in point is the hysteria the media is perpetuating about Asafa's positive for a Stimulant that is on the lesser Specified list.
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Re: 5 More Jamaican positives [Simpson & Powell big names]

Postby batonless relay » Mon Jul 22, 2013 12:54 pm

toyracer wrote:
batonless relay wrote:
no one wrote:...And I still don't think it was 'right" but it was legal - which is not fair ... etc etc


[redacted]

With the PR damage to the sport for a "6 month stimulant" being the same as a 2-year steroid, I say the punishment to the athlete should be commensurate with the damage that athletes recklessness does to our sport. Since long after these athletes have served their bans and returned the sport still has to deal with questions about their prior misjudgements, we should just ban them for life on the first offense, any offense, and never worry about them again. The end result will be the equivalent of a "whatever happened to...[insert promising star here]"


So you propose that the sanction fit the publicity?

With today's "reporting" practises, people will end up banned retroactive to the day they were born. Perfect case in point is the hysteria the media is perpetuating about Asafa's positive for a Stimulant that is on the lesser Specified list.

Your comments are a classic case of somebody's Ox got gored so now we have to change the rules. A Univ of Florida football player was kicked off of the team for getting arrested for...wait for it...barking at a police dog. Did the crime fit the the publicity/punishment?

The stimulant is only "lesser" because we don't make it "greater". If all stimulants were banned then it would no longer be lesser, no? Facts: Asafa tested positive, for a stimulant, that he WILLINGLY took, from a supplement that he had no idea what it was, from someone he barely knows (and that person claims that he did nothing of the sort) and you're suggesting without proof that Asafa Powell is the victim? It's not media hysterics that's driving this, it's defense hysteria of his most ardent fans and drug anarchists and apologists.
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Re: 5 More Jamaican positives [Simpson & Powell big names]

Postby 26mi235 » Mon Jul 22, 2013 6:26 pm

batonless relay wrote:
26mi235 wrote:
batonless relay wrote:
toyracer wrote:Distinctions between infractions make no difference to you?

So you're comfortable making sweeping statements, lumping , all of who were proven to ingest from a mislabelled sports drink, together with more serious infractions just to arrive at the "much higher" rate?

If he isn't comfortable making those statements I certainly am. The idea that we shouldn't punish athletes for things that are NOT impossible to NEVER have in their system is ridiculous.


Luckily, your position will not pass a combination of legal and administrative muster.

Under your rules, it would be enough for someone to spike an athlete's intake (possibly even of air) and make them ineligible for life. Accountants are not banned for life for making a mistake on a form. Students are not banned for life for cheating once. Society, in general, does not stand for such draconian approaches, at least in this part of the world.

26, you're a big sports fan. What happens to athletes after they've been caught point fixing? Are they usually let back into the sport? How successful have they been suing for their return? All throughout sports and life there are things you only get to do once. We both know that so let's not use that as the basis for your argument.


You and I know that there is no comparison between the two; one is an individual event, the other, well, baseball is really hard-nosed on doping and they give similar punishments to doping and game fixing, right. The example just highlights the shortcomings of your position is. [They is, game-fixing, even betting on baseball without any fixing is many times worse than any and all doping violations ever in baseball.]
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Re: 5 More Jamaican positives [Simpson & Powell big names]

Postby batonless relay » Tue Jul 23, 2013 3:21 am

26mi235 wrote:You and I know that there is no comparison between the two; one is an individual event, the other, well, baseball is really hard-nosed on doping and they give similar punishments to doping and game fixing, right. The example just highlights the shortcomings of your position is. [They is, game-fixing, even betting on baseball without any fixing is many times worse than any and all doping violations ever in baseball.]

Ahhh! That's where you miss the comparison! Baseball, unlike any other of the "ball-sports" shares T&F's obsessive hold on statistics so that the game/races can be compared as much as possible through time. The records are SUPPOSED to matter. The sanctity of the games and the sanctity of the races are held over all else; DRUGS ARE OUR POINT-SHAVING/FIXING! And, there should be LESS than zero tolerance (how do you like that for overkill :wink: ) for it.

Personally, I don't think a life ban on the first offense - even for a stimulant - is a bad thing and brought before the right court...it will stand up. But CAS isn't that court and if the IAAF wants to solve their "drug(s)" problem, it will have to do the bold thing and withdraw from WADA/CAS because CAS is incapable of adjudicating the sport in a sensible manner. If they can't figure out that the USA deserves to lose w4x4 medal in 2004, then it weakens all their decisions.
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Re: 5 More Jamaican positives [Simpson & Powell big names]

Postby 26mi235 » Tue Jul 23, 2013 12:55 pm

It would have to be brought before a court of standing with all the aspects of due process or one of the organizations that gives power to the ADA will object. I doubt it will pass muster in the EU and unless it has court-like due process and ability to interrogate the people on the stand, with legal liability for lying on the part of the prosecuting side, I do not think it will stand up in the US.

In general, in economics what you find if the penalties are too harsh is that they do not get applied a lot of the time.
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