Why is my Borlees post deleted now?


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Re: Why is my Borlees post deleted now?

Postby gh » Fri Jul 12, 2013 10:14 am

no one wrote:speaking of Borlee family track accomplishments ... and speaking of being slow, I just discovered that they have a 44.88, 45.11, 45.4, 46.82 400s in the fam, plus a female ( @ 22.98/11.38). Pretty impressive ... 45.4 was the father who now coaches the twins


Dad's best was 46.17.
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Re: Why is my Borlees post deleted now?

Postby Blues » Fri Jul 12, 2013 10:48 am

gh wrote:
no one wrote:speaking of Borlee family track accomplishments ... and speaking of being slow, I just discovered that they have a 44.88, 45.11, 45.4, 46.82 400s in the fam, plus a female ( @ 22.98/11.38). Pretty impressive ... 45.4 was the father who now coaches the twins


Dad's best was 46.17.


For anybody who may be confused, Jacques Borlee did run 45.4 but it was hand timed.
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Re: Why is my Borlees post deleted now?

Postby user4 » Fri Jul 12, 2013 10:53 am

Pego wrote:
Dixon wrote:I was asked about what.."obvious"..meant. My answer was when it comes to world class sprinting we see African roots sprinters dominating most the time.


Yes, this is what I expected to hear to be "obvious." So, a few points why "obvious" is about as superficial and misleading as the time-honored, "obvious fact" that the Sun rises in the East, revolves around the Earth and then sets in the West.

1. All of us have African roots. The only difference is when did our lineage diverse. 100,000 years ago, 10,000 years ago or 400 years ago.

2. Sprinting ability appears to be a trait of some West Africans, not any Africans.

3. Some East Africans, especially from the Riff Valley and the Horn of Africa regions seem to have preponderance toward long distance running, even in such genetically different groups of population as Kenyans and Ethiopians, for example.

4. No gene for the above traits has as yet been established. To suggest that their "blackness" is the common genetic factor is an obvious nonsense.


Pego, are you saying that if only Dixon had used the word "west african" instead of "black", all the misunderstandings, confusion and disagreements vanish ?
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Re: Why is my Borlees post deleted now?

Postby Pego » Fri Jul 12, 2013 11:02 am

user4 wrote:
Pego wrote:
Dixon wrote:I was asked about what.."obvious"..meant. My answer was when it comes to world class sprinting we see African roots sprinters dominating most the time.


Yes, this is what I expected to hear to be "obvious." So, a few points why "obvious" is about as superficial and misleading as the time-honored, "obvious fact" that the Sun rises in the East, revolves around the Earth and then sets in the West.

1. All of us have African roots. The only difference is when did our lineage diverse. 100,000 years ago, 10,000 years ago or 400 years ago.

2. Sprinting ability appears to be a trait of some West Africans, not any Africans.

3. Some East Africans, especially from the Riff Valley and the Horn of Africa regions seem to have preponderance toward long distance running, even in such genetically different groups of population as Kenyans and Ethiopians, for example.

4. No gene for the above traits has as yet been established. To suggest that their "blackness" is the common genetic factor is an obvious nonsense.


Pego, are you saying that if only Dixon had used the word "west african" instead of "black", all the misunderstandings, confusion and disagreements vanish ?


There exists a lot of "misunderstanding, confusion and disagreements" on this subject, so I do not claim an easy resolution to it. However, there appears strong empirical evidence that some people of West African extraction do possess a gene that helps their sprinting ability. Not all of them possess it and certainly a few individuals not from West African extraction possess it. Clear enough :wink: ?
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Re: Why is my Borlees post deleted now?

Postby user4 » Fri Jul 12, 2013 11:43 am

Pego wrote:
user4 wrote:
Pego wrote:
Dixon wrote:I was asked about what.."obvious"..meant. My answer was when it comes to world class sprinting we see African roots sprinters dominating most the time.


Yes, this is what I expected to hear to be "obvious." So, a few points why "obvious" is about as superficial and misleading as the time-honored, "obvious fact" that the Sun rises in the East, revolves around the Earth and then sets in the West.

1. All of us have African roots. The only difference is when did our lineage diverse. 100,000 years ago, 10,000 years ago or 400 years ago.

2. Sprinting ability appears to be a trait of some West Africans, not any Africans.

3. Some East Africans, especially from the Riff Valley and the Horn of Africa regions seem to have preponderance toward long distance running, even in such genetically different groups of population as Kenyans and Ethiopians, for example.

4. No gene for the above traits has as yet been established. To suggest that their "blackness" is the common genetic factor is an obvious nonsense.


Pego, are you saying that if only Dixon had used the word "west african" instead of "black", all the misunderstandings, confusion and disagreements vanish ?


There exists a lot of "misunderstanding, confusion and disagreements" on this subject, so I do not claim an easy resolution to it. However, there appears strong empirical evidence that some people of West African extraction do possess a gene that helps their sprinting ability. Not all of them possess it and certainly a few individuals not from West African extraction possess it. Clear enough :wink: ?


I think you said above (4.) that no one gene does the trick, that makes sense. If it is just
about labels and words, (black v west african) then why not just agree with Dixon. It sure seems that in actual content, you are in agreement.
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Re: Why is my Borlees post deleted now?

Postby Dixon » Fri Jul 12, 2013 11:44 am

Pego wrote:
Dixon wrote:I was asked about what.."obvious"..meant. My answer was when it comes to world class sprinting we see African roots sprinters dominating most the time.


Yes, this is what I expected to hear to be "obvious." So, a few points why "obvious" is about as superficial and misleading as the time-honored, "obvious fact" that the Sun rises in the East, revolves around the Earth and then sets in the West.

1. All of us have African roots. The only difference is when did our lineage diverse. 100,000 years ago, 10,000 years ago or 400 years ago.

2. Sprinting ability appears to be a trait of some West Africans, not any Africans.

3. Some East Africans, especially from the Riff Valley and the Horn of Africa regions seem to have preponderance toward long distance running, even in such genetically different groups of population as Kenyans and Ethiopians, for example.

4. No gene for the above traits has as yet been established. To suggest that their "blackness" is the common genetic factor is an obvious nonsense.


This is a board for track and field fans, everyone here understands how it works. No need to break it all down like you did. So I didn't, I assumed ...Afro...was all that was needed and it really is....here...on this board. We all know the difference between Kenya and Nigeria.

Obviously not thinking anyone is going to play...we all came from Africa.... :roll:

Nobody is talking..."blackness"...because that is a total non factor. What is a factor are those obvious unique physical characteristics we see coming from difference regions of the world. Compare Samoa to the Phillipines compare Nigeria to Kenya.

When it comes to sprinting it's that western African physique that appears to be the best suited for running fast.
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Re: Why is my Borlees post deleted now?

Postby kuha » Fri Jul 12, 2013 12:03 pm

user4 wrote:Pego, are you saying that if only Dixon had used the word "west african" instead of "black", all the misunderstandings, confusion and disagreements vanish ?


If I may... If he had said "athletes with West African ancestry" it would have been true, but utterly trivial since we already know all that. The problem has always been very sloppy and reductive thinking and the use of broad-brush terms (we know them) that are very imprecise, and at least as much misleading as meaningful.

And, really, at the end of the day, this has got to be the world's most tedious subject.
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Re: Why is my Borlees post deleted now?

Postby user4 » Fri Jul 12, 2013 12:24 pm

kuha wrote:
user4 wrote:Pego, are you saying that if only Dixon had used the word "west african" instead of "black", all the misunderstandings, confusion and disagreements vanish ?


If I may... If he had said "athletes with West African ancestry" it would have been true, but utterly trivial since we already know all that. The problem has always been very sloppy and reductive thinking and the use of broad-brush terms (we know them) that are very imprecise, and at least as much misleading as meaningful.

And, really, at the end of the day, this has got to be the world's most tedious subject.


I never thought that Dixon meant anything other than west african ancestry when he said "black" as every discussion was centered on US /Carib blacks ... I think you guys are straining ...

Looking over the past few years of the various incarnations of Dixon Im reminded of an old saying from Ghandi :

http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quote ... 03630.html
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Re: Why is my Borlees post deleted now?

Postby Pego » Fri Jul 12, 2013 12:29 pm

user4 wrote:why not just agree with Dixon. It sure seems that in actual content, you are in agreement


Actually, there is a gulf between us. Let me elaborate.

Dixon looks at a sprinter and sees a black man. I look at a sprinter and see somebody that possesses a gene that allows him to move fast, who happens to be black, but that to me does not matter. Why? Even though the gene for running fast has not been established, we can clearly see that it has nothing to do with being black. Why? There are numerous genetic subgroups of African population and only a small segment of it possesses it. Dixon never accepted this difference between our positions, I hope you can appreciate it. It is not semantics, it is a fundamental difference.

Let me expand this into distance running. It takes only a brief look to see that Kenyans and Ethiopian are entirely different genetic population, yet they both seem to possess a gene allowing them to run fast over long distances. I do not know what was the guiding principle of natural selection to develop it, but it happened. Not all Africans have it, only a small portion of the region in East Africa.
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Re: Why is my Borlees post deleted now?

Postby Dixon » Fri Jul 12, 2013 12:41 pm

Pego wrote:
user4 wrote:why not just agree with Dixon. It sure seems that in actual content, you are in agreement


Actually, there is a gulf between us. Let me elaborate.

Dixon looks at a sprinter and sees a black man. I look at a sprinter and see somebody that possesses a gene that allows him to move fast, who happens to be black, but that to me does not matter. Why? Even though the gene for running fast has not been established, we can clearly see that it has nothing to do with being black. Why? There are numerous genetic subgroups of African population and only a small segment of it possesses it. Dixon never accepted this difference between our positions, I hope you can appreciate it. It is not semantics, it is a fundamental difference.

Let me expand this into distance running. It takes only a brief look to see that Kenyans and Ethiopian are entirely different genetic population, yet they both seem to possess a gene allowing them to run fast over long distances. I do not know what was the guiding principle of natural selection to develop it, but it happened. Not all Africans have it, only a small portion of the region in East Africa.


How about we try some reality, ok?

Who here isn't aware of Charley Paddock, and Frank Wykoff and Mel Patton and Remigino, Borzov, Mennea, Little, Wells, Abrahams, Percy Williams? So no I don't just see a black man standing there..ok? I'm watching the Asian Championships and see a black man standing there?

I go with reality. When they line up for that Worlds 100m final we will see 8 sprinters there all with roots to western Africa, that is reality. And it's been that way for a long time with the once in awhile rarity.
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Re: Why is my Borlees post deleted now?

Postby no one » Fri Jul 12, 2013 12:43 pm

should have known, gh, not to blindly accept wikipedia. me being lazy. thanks for correction. Still pretty good fam speed.
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Re: Why is my Borlees post deleted now?

Postby Pego » Fri Jul 12, 2013 12:51 pm

Dixon wrote:When they line up for that Worlds 100m final we will see 8 sprinters there all with roots to western Africa, that is reality.


With this statement I do not argue.
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Re: Why is my Borlees post deleted now?

Postby Dixon » Fri Jul 12, 2013 1:00 pm

Pego wrote:
Dixon wrote:When they line up for that Worlds 100m final we will see 8 sprinters there all with roots to western Africa, that is reality.


With this statement I do not argue.


Not sure how yo can argue anything actually, nobody here is new to this stuff, we all know how it works. No need to tear it all apart fot thisw crowd. Now if a bunch of kids just getting into this stuff...................
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Re: Why is my Borlees post deleted now?

Postby Marlow » Fri Jul 12, 2013 1:12 pm

Dixon wrote:
Pego wrote:
Dixon wrote:When they line up for that Worlds 100m final we will see 8 sprinters there all with roots to western Africa, that is reality.

With this statement I do not argue.

Not sure how yo can argue anything actually, nobody here is new to this stuff, we all know how it works. No need to tear it all apart fot thisw crowd. Now if a bunch of kids just getting into this stuff...................

I am very sad that LeMaitre's 9.92 can't be considered Oly quality. :(
Also, I doubt it's all about 'physique' as you posit above. Preponderance of fast-twitch cells, and one's CNS is not part of 'physique'.

That said, of course it is very obvious that a statistically significant number of West Africans (and their descendants, including a very high proportion of those who did not intermarry with just West Africans) do have, on average, a genetic 'gift' for sprinting.
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Re: Why is my Borlees post deleted now?

Postby Dixon » Fri Jul 12, 2013 1:24 pm

Marlow wrote:
Dixon wrote:
Pego wrote:
Dixon wrote:When they line up for that Worlds 100m final we will see 8 sprinters there all with roots to western Africa, that is reality.

With this statement I do not argue.

Not sure how yo can argue anything actually, nobody here is new to this stuff, we all know how it works. No need to tear it all apart fot thisw crowd. Now if a bunch of kids just getting into this stuff...................

I am very sad that LeMaitre's 9.92 can't be considered Oly quality. :(
Also, I doubt it's all about 'physique' as you posit above. Preponderance of fast-twitch cells, and one's CNS is not part of 'physique'.

That said, of course it is very obvious that a statistically significant number of West Africans (and their descendants, including a very high proportion of those who did not intermarry with just West Africans) do have, on average, a genetic 'gift' for sprinting.


I mentioned the...rarity.

There is no doubt it's about the western African physique, studies have proven the differences. If you've played football or ran track you've see those obvious differences. The big/tall athlete with speed, where else do we see that?
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Re: Why is my Borlees post deleted now?

Postby Pego » Fri Jul 12, 2013 1:30 pm

Dixon wrote:
Pego wrote:
Dixon wrote:When they line up for that Worlds 100m final we will see 8 sprinters there all with roots to western Africa, that is reality.


With this statement I do not argue.


Not sure how yo can argue anything actually, nobody here is new to this stuff, we all know how it works. No need to tear it all apart fot thisw crowd. Now if a bunch of kids just getting into this stuff...................


When we started this exchange, it still did not dawn on me who you were, it came to me a few posts into the exchange. Anyway, welcome back.
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Re: Why is my Borlees post deleted now?

Postby Dixon » Fri Jul 12, 2013 1:40 pm

Pego wrote:
Dixon wrote:
Pego wrote:
Dixon wrote:When they line up for that Worlds 100m final we will see 8 sprinters there all with roots to western Africa, that is reality.


With this statement I do not argue.


Not sure how yo can argue anything actually, nobody here is new to this stuff, we all know how it works. No need to tear it all apart fot thisw crowd. Now if a bunch of kids just getting into this stuff...................


When we started this exchange, it still did not dawn on me who you were, it came to me a few posts into the exchange. Anyway, welcome back.


I'm that obvious?

Ok bro, thanx :D
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Re: Why is my Borlees post deleted now?

Postby Daisy » Fri Jul 12, 2013 1:46 pm

Dixon wrote:I'm that obvious?

:D
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Re: Why is my Borlees post deleted now?

Postby kuha » Fri Jul 12, 2013 2:14 pm

Dixon wrote:I'm that obvious?


There are few others quite as good at beating this specific dead horse.
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Re: Why is my Borlees post deleted now?

Postby gh » Sun Jul 14, 2013 6:41 am

Pego wrote:
Dixon wrote:
Pego wrote:
Dixon wrote:When they line up for that Worlds 100m final we will see 8 sprinters there all with roots to western Africa, that is reality.


With this statement I do not argue.


Not sure how yo can argue anything actually, nobody here is new to this stuff, we all know how it works. No need to tear it all apart fot thisw crowd. Now if a bunch of kids just getting into this stuff...................


When we started this exchange, it still did not dawn on me who you were, it came to me a few posts into the exchange. Anyway, welcome back.


"welcome" to a multi-time bannee? Some people don't understand the concept of not welcome here. The clock is ticking.
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Re: Why is my Borlees post deleted now?

Postby Pego » Sun Jul 14, 2013 9:33 am

As I said before, I can count on fingers of one hand all the posters on this message board that I truly disliked. Even the most contentious ones, even the ones I crossed swords with repeatedly I at least respected regardless of our diametrical difference of opinion. Dixon can be a shitload of fun when not in a bannable mode :wink: .
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Re: Why is my Borlees post deleted now?

Postby Dixon » Sun Jul 14, 2013 9:52 am

There will be no problems gh, I promise.
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Re: Why is my Borlees post deleted now?

Postby jazzcyclist » Tue Jul 16, 2013 5:41 am

gh wrote:"welcome" to a multi-time bannee? Some people don't understand the concept of not welcome here. The clock is ticking.

What's the over-and-under on when Dixon, jamboy and batonless relay recieve their next bans? My guesses:

    Dixon - 3 months because then we'll be in the middle of football season
    jamboy - 1 month because he's going to cross the line during the world championships
    batonless relay - harder to predict but I'll say 4 months
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