Why can female tennis players get away with being ..


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Re: Why can female tennis players get away with being ..

Postby Marlow » Mon Jul 08, 2013 7:40 am

mump boy wrote:Marion Bartoli (despite the PC responses on here) does not 'look' like a world class sportsperson.

gh wrote:Who gives a shit? This is about winning, not fitting into your personal aesthetic.
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Re: Why can female tennis players get away with being ..

Postby jeremyp » Mon Jul 08, 2013 8:41 am

CookyMonzta wrote:I, for one, was happy still, when a Plain Jane with hardly a reputation stepped up and won this thing.
Good thing you're not a journalist/commentator/politician. :D
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Re: Why can female tennis players get away with being ..

Postby jeremyp » Mon Jul 08, 2013 8:45 am

gh wrote:changing subject slightly, since nobody else (shockingly) has brought it up, but what an awesome men's final!

the post-match stuff was worth half a box of kleenex all by itself!

Being half Brit and being married to a Brit we almost missed this. I was trolling web and saw: "Djokjovic in control of 2d set" and turned it on and we watched the last set and, more importantly that OMG last game. 77 freaking years? Imagine if we (Yanks) had waited that long to win The America's Cup!!!
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Re: Why can female tennis players get away with being ..

Postby batonless relay » Mon Jul 08, 2013 9:10 am

jeremyp wrote:
gh wrote:changing subject slightly, since nobody else (shockingly) has brought it up, but what an awesome men's final!

the post-match stuff was worth half a box of kleenex all by itself!

Being half Brit and being married to a Brit we almost missed this. I was trolling web and saw: "Djokjovic in control of 2d set" and turned it on and we watched the last set and, more importantly that OMG last game. 77 freaking years? Imagine if we (Yanks) had waited that long to win The America's Cup!!!

Americ'as Cup isn't nearly as dear to Americans as Wimbledon is to Brits. Now if that were the Masters or the US Open...
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Re: Why can female tennis players get away with being ..

Postby mump boy » Mon Jul 08, 2013 9:24 am

Marlow wrote:
mump boy wrote:Marion Bartoli (despite the PC responses on here) does not 'look' like a world class sportsperson.

gh wrote:Who gives a shit? This is about winning, not fitting into your personal aesthetic.


Next time someone comments on Francena McCroroy's or Christophe Lemaitre's bad form i'll remember this.

Apparently we're no longer allowed to comment on anything we for fear of having a 'personal aesthetic' !!
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Re: Why can female tennis players get away with being ..

Postby nevetsllim » Mon Jul 08, 2013 9:30 am

mump boy wrote:
Blues wrote:I don't think mump's question was out of line... Many people expect elite athletes to train in a way that improves their athletic performance the most, and that includes having the best body for the sport.

With that being said though, not everyone has the same genetics or same metabolism.. Workouts that may burn every inch of fat off of one person may leave someone else a little softer... If Bartoli can keep her natural physique and be fit enough to win Wimbledon, more power to her... And it could be possible that she doesn't want the cut muscular physique that some of the other female athletes have.. Reminds me a little of one of my old football heroes from my days in the Pittsburgh area, "The Bus", Jerome Bettis. If they'd put him on a salad and melba toast diet, he might have been thinner, but he might not have been known as "The Bus" for his powerful running style either.

http://jacksonville.com/sites/default/f ... 630693.jpg


Thakyou

I read that her dad got her to put on weight to improve her power. Conventionally you'd put on muscle wouldn't you ? but it works for her

I just wonder though, it's taken her 48 attempts and till the age of 28 to win a Grand Slam (the most attempts ever). Could she have won earlier if she'd been as 'fit' (i hesitiate to use that word as it's so contentious !!) as say Sciavonne or Henin who have a similar build eg not Venus, Sharipova or Serena etc


I don't think so. I don't want to take anything away from Marion because you can only beat who's in front of you but she didn't have a difficult draw and the highest seed she faced (from memory) was Sloane Stephens who was the #16 seed. She's a super grass-court player but the draw very much opened up for her and she took advantage of it.

Going back to the original topic, I still wouldn't say women's tennis is as physical as the men's game although it's heading in that direction. You mentioned players like Davenport as an example of a player who wasn't in shape and back when she was starting on the tour in the early/mid-90s (in fact most of your examples were from this period), most top players played full singles AND doubles schedules. Hardly any of the top players commit to doubles on a week-to-week basis simply because of the increased physicality (and depth) in women's tennis. I'm not saying players were overweight but they didn't commit to off-court conditioning in the same way they do nowadays. You can't get away with just being a super ball-striker and if you want to get to the very top of the game, you have to be incredibly fit.
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Re: Why can female tennis players get away with being ..

Postby mump boy » Mon Jul 08, 2013 9:35 am

Davenport very noticably got into shape before she actually won anything

If women had to play over 5 sets do you think there would be a marked difference in conditioning and physicality ?

(i'm trying to be very careful with terminology here so not to incur the wrath of the newly founded PC brigade)
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Re: Why can female tennis players get away with being ..

Postby Tuariki » Mon Jul 08, 2013 10:25 am

jeremyp wrote:77 freaking years? Imagine if we (Yanks) had waited that long to win The America's Cup!!!

Yanks win it? I think it was actually a couple of kiwis who were instrumental in winning the America's Cup for the USA with the assistance of a few hundred million American dollars
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Re: Why can female tennis players get away with being ..

Postby Marlow » Mon Jul 08, 2013 10:40 am

mump boy wrote:Next time someone comments on Francena McCroroy's or Christophe Lemaitre's bad form i'll remember this. Apparently we're no longer allowed to comment on anything we for fear of having a 'personal aesthetic' !!

How is commenting on someone's biomechanics the same as talking about how fat they look?
For someone who has usually shown himself to possess a higher consciousness (that's a huge compliment, by the way), you sure seem to be hung up on body types.
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Re: Why can female tennis players get away with being ..

Postby jhc68 » Mon Jul 08, 2013 11:28 am

As per batonless relay:

" when you see NCAA gymnastics you see FAT women. Hell, you can find FAT women on many cross country teams (and you better not mention a woman athletes weight on a college campus if you want to keep your job)"

You got the last part right! Any unsolicited commentary by a male about any woman's body configuration is legally out of bounds at any work place, not only a college campus.

As for FAT women on gymnastics and cross-country teams, in my experience if this is posed as a health concern the overwhelming number of weight issues in these sports is exactly the opposite... anorexia and bulimia and the resulting 20 year-olds with the bone density of their grandmas are a much more legit worry.
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Re: Why can female tennis players get away with being ..

Postby jeremyp » Mon Jul 08, 2013 12:19 pm

batonless relay wrote:
jeremyp wrote:
gh wrote:changing subject slightly, since nobody else (shockingly) has brought it up, but what an awesome men's final!

the post-match stuff was worth half a box of kleenex all by itself!

Being half Brit and being married to a Brit we almost missed this. I was trolling web and saw: "Djokjovic in control of 2d set" and turned it on and we watched the last set and, more importantly that OMG last game. 77 freaking years? Imagine if we (Yanks) had waited that long to win The America's Cup!!!

Americ'as Cup isn't nearly as dear to Americans as Wimbledon is to Brits. Now if that were the Masters or the US Open...

Now it turns out to be the men who hadn't won for 77 years. A woman won 36 years ago, Virginia Wade? Let sexism prevail. :shock:
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Re: Why can female tennis players get away with being ..

Postby 26mi235 » Mon Jul 08, 2013 1:09 pm

Mary Cain, a very good middle distance runner where excess weight is a killer, does not look all that 'lean and mean'. On women, the appearance can be deceiving.
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Re: Why can female tennis players get away with being ..

Postby mump boy » Mon Jul 08, 2013 2:02 pm

Marlow wrote:
mump boy wrote:Next time someone comments on Francena McCroroy's or Christophe Lemaitre's bad form i'll remember this. Apparently we're no longer allowed to comment on anything we for fear of having a 'personal aesthetic' !!

How is commenting on someone's biomechanics the same as talking about how fat they look?
For someone who has usually shown himself to possess a higher consciousness (that's a huge compliment, by the way), you sure seem to be hung up on body types.


It exactly the same

Being 'fat' is not usually conducive to great sporting performances however you'd like to spin it. It is an entirely appropriate topic for discussion

Why comment on someone's biomechanics just because they don't fit with your 'personal aesthetic ?

I don't remember Michael Johnson's unorthodox running style doing him any harm, despite the amount of discussion it provoked.
Last edited by mump boy on Mon Jul 08, 2013 2:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Why can female tennis players get away with being ..

Postby mump boy » Mon Jul 08, 2013 2:04 pm

26mi235 wrote:Mary Cain, a very good middle distance runner where excess weight is a killer, does not look all that 'lean and mean'. On women, the appearance can be deceiving.


She is also a teenager and i do think that such discussions are inappropriate, which is why i didn't include a certain teenage tennis player who has hit the headlines for exactly this reason recently.
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Re: Why can female tennis players get away with being ..

Postby kuha » Mon Jul 08, 2013 2:19 pm

mump boy wrote:Being 'fat' is not usually conducive to with great sporting performances however you'd like to spin it. It is an entirely appropriate topic for discussion


From what has already transpired here, that appears to be false.
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Re: Why can female tennis players get away with being ..

Postby uakari » Mon Jul 08, 2013 2:23 pm

jeremyp wrote:Now it turns out to be the men who hadn't won for 77 years. A woman won 36 years ago, Virginia Wade? Let sexism prevail. :shock:


i know... i kept hearing/reading "first brit to win wimbledon in 77 years" -- oh you mean, first brit with the XY chromosomes...

as for fat female gymnasts -- are you sure you are not confusing bulkiness with muscle?
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Re: Why can female tennis players get away with being ..

Postby bushop » Mon Jul 08, 2013 5:28 pm

Seems like the more complex the skill set the less physical talent is required to compete at the highest levels.
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Re: Why can female tennis players get away with being ..

Postby Marlow » Mon Jul 08, 2013 5:47 pm

bushop wrote:Seems like the more complex the skill set the less physical talent is required to compete at the highest levels.

??!!
Pole Vaulting is the most complex skill set in T&F and the very best are indeed extremely physically talented, which includes some 'bulky' athletes.
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Re: Why can female tennis players get away with being ..

Postby bushop » Mon Jul 08, 2013 5:53 pm

Marlow wrote:
bushop wrote:Seems like the more complex the skill set the less physical talent is required to compete at the highest levels.

Pole Vaulting is the most complex skill set in T&F and the very best are indeed extremely physically talented, which includes some 'bulky' athletes.

Could it be said that one can have excellent technique but if you can't flat out sprint you're not world class?
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Re: Why can female tennis players get away with being ..

Postby Vielleicht » Mon Jul 08, 2013 6:45 pm

bushop wrote:
Marlow wrote:
bushop wrote:Seems like the more complex the skill set the less physical talent is required to compete at the highest levels.

Pole Vaulting is the most complex skill set in T&F and the very best are indeed extremely physically talented, which includes some 'bulky' athletes.

Could it be said that one can have excellent technique but if you can't flat out sprint you're not world class?

I think so, there seems to be a baseline of required physical talent so to speak in any sport in order to be an elite athlete, to which the complexity of the skill set is an irrelevant variable; and in the world of athletics, no matter what the event is, this baseline is usually very, very high.
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Re: Why can female tennis players get away with being ..

Postby bushop » Mon Jul 08, 2013 6:52 pm

Vielleicht wrote:
bushop wrote:
Marlow wrote:
bushop wrote:Seems like the more complex the skill set the less physical talent is required to compete at the highest levels.

Pole Vaulting is the most complex skill set in T&F and the very best are indeed extremely physically talented, which includes some 'bulky' athletes.

Could it be said that one can have excellent technique but if you can't flat out sprint you're not world class?

I think so, there seems to be a baseline of required physical talent so to speak in any sport in order to be an elite athlete, to which the complexity of the skill set is an irrelevant variable; and in the world of athletics, no matter what the event is, this baseline is usually very, very high.

Agreed, but those baselines differ.
Even in tennis the skill set, and baseline of physicality, for the genders differs.
Men's game relies on big serves, women rely on long volleys, different skill sets.
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Re: Why can female tennis players get away with being ..

Postby Master Po » Mon Jul 08, 2013 7:45 pm

Nice essay on this year's Wimbledon, and appreciation of Bartoli:

Grantland, 8 July
Louisa Thomas, "On Marion Bartoli, a Perfect, Weird, Wimbledon Champion"
http://www.grantland.com/blog/the-trian ... n-champion
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Re: Why can female tennis players get away with being ..

Postby lapsus » Mon Jul 08, 2013 9:35 pm

Pretty ludicrous to say Bartoli is not fit, she gets around the court quite quickly... don't think she is "fat", either, just that the Stosurs of the world have made the ultra-cut, visibly-muscular physique seem normal (for a 170-175 cm player) - and also that there are lots of 180+ cm players around who have a completely different body shape.

Bartoli probably has a quite similar body fat % to, say, Ivanovic in her Grand Slam winning days, it's just that she's shorter and not "hot". You may have noticed that Ivanovic has gotten very thin recently, but her performances have not improved - it is the mental side of the game that is letting her down.
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Re: Why can female tennis players get away with being ..

Postby Per Andersen » Mon Jul 08, 2013 10:43 pm

Different sports have different requirements. Maradona and Messi and Rooney for that matter. Do they look like super athletes?

But let's stick to tennis. Borg and McEnroe. Who looked like an athlete? And who chased Borg out of the game?
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Re: Why can female tennis players get away with being ..

Postby batonless relay » Tue Jul 09, 2013 4:57 am

Right now I'm thinking of 4 women of Track and Field; all retired; all NCAA individual Outdoor Champions; all Olympic team members who became even better athletes AFTER they had already been world ranked ... [partly] by losing weight. 21 WC or Olympic medals between them.

I can't speak for everyone else, but what I'm saying is that MANY, if not most of these tennis players WOULD possibly be better with a little (lot?) less pudge. A 31 year old woman quite possibly wouldn't be dominating tennis! The 2nd best woman in tennis MIGHT have beaten the #1 in the last 9 years! It's not just the fat ones, it's the skinny ones, too! Why are some of you assuming that they're being coached to the best of their ability? They're just not that well trained. And, this isn't new. Martina Navratilova was an incredible tennis player BEFORE she reformed her body. She wouldn't be "fat" for the average woman walking the street, but she was if she were to measure herself against the best athlete she could be. Just because some of these athletes who are being described as fat can "get away with carrying a little extra" and still be world class doesn't mean that they couldn't be better if they lost a few pounds.
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Re: Why can female tennis players get away with being ..

Postby Daisy » Tue Jul 09, 2013 6:03 am

Master Po wrote:Nice essay on this year's Wimbledon, and appreciation of Bartoli:

Grantland, 8 July
Louisa Thomas, "On Marion Bartoli, a Perfect, Weird, Wimbledon Champion"
http://www.grantland.com/blog/the-trian ... n-champion

And yet the amount of hate out there is stunning.
http://publicshaming.tumblr.com/post/54 ... oli-deemed

I don't 'twitter' but if that is representative of the noise out there, it's not worth it.
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Re: Why can female tennis players get away with being ..

Postby Master Po » Tue Jul 09, 2013 6:08 am

^ Agree w you, Daisy. Part of my reason for posting that article -- I thought it was a well-written, insightful appreciation of what happened at Wimbledon this year (with a focus in this instance on Bartoli). A small tonic for a lot of the entirely depressing "public discourse" that's out there. :( :)
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Re: Why can female tennis players get away with being ..

Postby Marlow » Tue Jul 09, 2013 6:09 am

Daisy wrote:I don't 'twitter' but if that is representative of the noise out there, it's not worth it.

Agree 100%. If I want hatas hatin', I can go here! :evil:
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Re: Why can female tennis players get away with being ..

Postby Daisy » Tue Jul 09, 2013 6:19 am

Master Po wrote:A small tonic

Let's make it go a long way.
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Re: Why can female tennis players get away with being ..

Postby jazzcyclist » Tue Jul 09, 2013 7:42 am

Per Andersen wrote:But let's stick to tennis. Borg and McEnroe. Who looked like an athlete? And who chased Borg out of the game?

I never thought of either one of them as being overweight. As matter of fact, I can't think of any male tennis player that I would consider fat. It seems that only women tennis players can get away with carrying extra weight. But that's with sports in genral, not just tennis.
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Re: Why can female tennis players get away with being ..

Postby Marlow » Tue Jul 09, 2013 8:04 am

McEnroe was a scrawny little twerp, something Murray has also been characterized as. Non-athletic-looking world-beaters have always been around. We can't all look like Bob Seagren! :wink:
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Re: Why can female tennis players get away with being ..

Postby marknhj » Tue Jul 09, 2013 12:19 pm

Marlow wrote:McEnroe was a scrawny little twerp, something Murray has also been characterized as. Non-athletic-looking world-beaters have always been around. We can't all look like Bob Seagren! :wink:


Murray certainly isn't a scrawny little twerp these days. As an aside, I heard on TV that his track sessions include 10 x 400m and 20 x 100m with short recovery. I think male tennis players have to be among the fittest athletes in any sport.
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Re: Why can female tennis players get away with being ..

Postby jazzcyclist » Tue Jul 09, 2013 1:13 pm

Answer to the OP: lack of parity and depth compared to the men
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Re: Why can female tennis players get away with being ..

Postby TN1965 » Tue Jul 09, 2013 1:46 pm

jazzcyclist wrote:I never thought of either one of them as being overweight. As matter of fact, I can't think of any male tennis player that I would consider fat. It seems that only women tennis players can get away with carrying extra weight. But that's with sports in genral, not just tennis.


Both Becker and Agassi frequently showed up in major tournaments at least 10 pounds overweight. Of course, they didn't win those majors when they were overweight. Philippoussis would have done better if he had been a little lighter. Among the current top players, Del Potro could afford to lose a little weight without losing much of his power.

And then, there was Henri Leconte...
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Re: Why can female tennis players get away with being ..

Postby TN1965 » Tue Jul 09, 2013 8:54 pm

I forgot to add David Nalbandian and Marcos Baghdatis. Both Grand Slam finalists.
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Re: Why can female tennis players get away with being ..

Postby Per Andersen » Tue Jul 09, 2013 10:01 pm

jazzcyclist wrote:
Per Andersen wrote:But let's stick to tennis. Borg and McEnroe. Who looked like an athlete? And who chased Borg out of the game?

I never thought of either one of them as being overweight. As matter of fact, I can't think of any male tennis player that I would consider fat. It seems that only women tennis players can get away with carrying extra weight. But that's with sports in genral, not just tennis.

My point, of course, was that Borg looked and moved like a super athlete and McEnroe did not, and after Wimbledon in 1981 Johnny Mac had Borg's number.
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Re: Why can female tennis players get away with being ..

Postby jazzcyclist » Wed Jul 10, 2013 5:23 am

Per Andersen wrote:My point, of course, was that Borg looked and moved like a super athlete and McEnroe did not, and after Wimbledon in 1981 Johnny Mac had Borg's number.

Well, I think history has shown that in finesse sports like basketball, tennis and soccer muscularity is not a prerequisite for greatness, but being fit and not overweight is, at least on the men's side. Women's tennis is similar to baseball in that you can be overweight in both sports and still be great.
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Re: Why can female tennis players get away with being ..

Postby Vielleicht » Wed Jul 10, 2013 5:39 am

Talking about overweight but great players in association football, Ronaldo was still very sharp and lethal when he played for Real Madrid, though he was visibly plump and not optimally conditioned; because he was just so good that he could get away with the loss of coverage and short burst. And in his later years at the same club Puskás was definitely very overweight and not mobile, he nevertheless maintained an excellent scoring record...that was a totally different era though.
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Re: Why can female tennis players get away with being ..

Postby 26mi235 » Wed Jul 10, 2013 8:41 am

bushop wrote:
Marlow wrote:
bushop wrote:Seems like the more complex the skill set the less physical talent is required to compete at the highest levels.

Pole Vaulting is the most complex skill set in T&F and the very best are indeed extremely physically talented, which includes some 'bulky' athletes.

Could it be said that one can have excellent technique but if you can't flat out sprint you're not world class?


The vertical jumps rely much less on raw speed than the horizontal jumps. Yes, the more speed the better, but not to the detriment of transferring the kinetic energy into the pole and then holding at the right height with an unbent arm, ... I do not know of a pole vaulter that has enough sprint speed to race on the flat and they rarely even do the horizontal jumps. Some of the decathletes probably have the best sprint speed of all vaulters and some of them are pretty fast and good vaulters. However, the speed nexus is the 100/110h/LJ/400 not primarily the PV runway speed. [I think Bubka is thought to be among the fastest vaulters (duh) and I think Lavillenie looks faster than others...]
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Re: Why can female tennis players get away with being ..

Postby Blues » Wed Jul 10, 2013 5:24 pm

It may have been mentioned already, but due to gender differences women also have higher normal body fat percentages than men. That helps account for a possibly softer look in women as compared to men in the same sport, and can account for a woman having a harder time becoming as "cut and defined"... Obviously other hormonal differences play a part as well. And in the case of individual athletes, individual genetics and metabolism play a significant role in normal body composition too.

http://www.humankinetics.com/excerpts/e ... d-body-fat
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