how good was David Beckham?


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Re: how good was David Beckham?

Postby bambam » Mon May 20, 2013 10:33 am

jazzcyclist wrote:
kamikaze7 wrote:Beckham was not super talented, he did not have great athletic gifts, he did not have great moves. he was not fast. But he had laser like precision in his passes, crosses, free-kicks and corners. The product of hundreds of hard work in the practice field since he was in his teens.

Others are more talented but their lack of precision renders them less effective. English midfielders like Gerrard, Barnes and Gazza had more talent than Beckham. But Beckham was one of the most effective players ever.

This sounds like a description of Larry Bird. As an athlete, Larry Bird wasn't even in the same class as Dominique Wilkins, but as a basketball player, Wilkins wasn't in the same class as Bird.


Good, and accurate, comparison
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Re: how good was David Beckham?

Postby Daisy » Mon May 20, 2013 10:35 am

kamikaze7 wrote:Beckham was incredibly good at delivering accurate passes be it from dead ball situations or in the run of play. He is probably the best assist man if his generation. From that perspective I would compare him to John Stockton.

Beckham was not super talented, he did not have great athletic gifts, he did not have great moves. he was not fast. But he had laser like precision in his passes, crosses, free-kicks and corners. The product of hundreds of hard work in the practice field since he was in his teens.

Others are more talented but their lack of precision renders them less effective. English midfielders like Gerrard, Barnes and Gazza had more talent than Beckham. But Beckham was one of the most effective players ever.

Plus he was a genuine humanitarian and good representative for English football. Much of the bile directed at him was jealousy.

Excellent summary.
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Re: how good was David Beckham?

Postby TN1965 » Mon May 20, 2013 11:56 am

26mi235 wrote:Baseball has two leagues, half the MVPs are runner-ups by the soccer standard. Also, baseball has (2) Cy Young awards as well - four shots at the apple in a sense.

Who were the guys that beat him out for MVP? Are they players like Messi?


Rivaldo and Figo.
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Re: how good was David Beckham?

Postby 26mi235 » Mon May 20, 2013 1:59 pm

So he was beaten out by the best, not someone with a great year when no one else shined too much?
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Re: how good was David Beckham?

Postby marknhj » Mon May 20, 2013 3:29 pm

bambam wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote:
kamikaze7 wrote:Beckham was not super talented, he did not have great athletic gifts, he did not have great moves. he was not fast. But he had laser like precision in his passes, crosses, free-kicks and corners. The product of hundreds of hard work in the practice field since he was in his teens.

Others are more talented but their lack of precision renders them less effective. English midfielders like Gerrard, Barnes and Gazza had more talent than Beckham. But Beckham was one of the most effective players ever.

This sounds like a description of Larry Bird. As an athlete, Larry Bird wasn't even in the same class as Dominique Wilkins, but as a basketball player, Wilkins wasn't in the same class as Bird.


Good, and accurate, comparison


Agreed and jazz's analogy with Bird is a good one. And of course, "talent" isn't limited to spectacularly running around people. Becks passing accuracy and shooting prowess were pretty significant "talents" in themselves. I've always thought his naysayers were simply brimming over with envy at a guy who pretty much has it all.
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Re: how good was David Beckham?

Postby Vielleicht » Mon May 20, 2013 11:34 pm

26mi235 wrote:So he was beaten out by the best, not someone with a great year when no one else shined too much?

Indeed, both Rivaldo and Figo are all-time greats; and given the rules of the FIFA World POY, it usually requires a lot of accumulated reputation for a player to win this award, since it was voted by coaches and captains of national teams who might not have so much time to care about footballers not in the same region as they themselves were playing in. The Ballon d'Or, the other then prestigous award voted by journalists, was more about the actual performance of the year by footballers. They have however been merged into FIFA Ballon d'Or since 2010 which I consider a shame, for while they were separated they represented different tastes and values that are interesting to compare.

To stay germane to the topic, Beckham placed 2nd in the ranking of the Ballon d'Or in 1999 too, and in 2001 he was 4th.
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Re: how good was David Beckham?

Postby Rog » Tue May 21, 2013 1:33 am

However good Beckham was at football, his main focus has been on marketing for many years. These days he's all image - the top-flight footballer who hasn't played top-flight football in the UK for years, the married family man who is rarely seen in public with his wife but who is constantly photographed with his kids, which certainly supports the image. Unfortunately there are those persistent reports of affairs, and speculation about that relationship with Tom Cruise...

To me Beckham is Britain's answer to the Kardashians, a modern celebrity for whom everything has a monetary value, including his children. In the UK there's another Man Utd player who has just retired by the name of Paul Scholes, who Americans may not have heard of, but who probably has at least as much credibility as a legend - he just doesn't do PR. And good for him!

If like me you can't stand David Beckham, here's what a comic news website had to say on the story:

"DAVID Beckham continued to play professional football from time to time after leaving Manchester United, it has emerged.

The 1998 World Cup controversy left United in 2003 to become a haircut, but he has revealed he also played ‘on and off’ for the Spanish team, Real Madrid.

Beckham took Britain by surprise yesterday by announcing that he had not retired from football until now.

He said: “I would turn out for Madrid maybe once a month, when I wasn’t trying to reinvent the underpant.

“I went to Spain because it’s a great environment for underpant research scientists. After four years I had perfected male knickers and it was time for new challenges involving money.”

Beckham said he then played for an experimental football team in Los Angeles.

He added: “I moved to LA because it was invented for people like me. I started playing for the local team after realising that if I did not stay in shape I would have been overpowered by Tom Cruise.

“To this day I fear he will leap out of the dark and wrestle me to the ground.”

The odyssey of self-discovery also took him to Tibet, the depths of the Amazon rainforest and the sacred site of Uluru in Australia, as he sought out ancient and mystical places to make adverts for Adidas.

Beckham, who historians say was a ‘right-sided midfielder’, also spent periods in Milan and Paris so that his wife could learn about clothes."

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/sport/spo ... 3051769101
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Re: how good was David Beckham?

Postby Marlow » Tue May 21, 2013 3:55 am

Rog wrote:If like me you can't stand David Beckham

As noted above, you're just jealous of a guy who had it all.
The Kardashian analogy is empty. Beckham was a great athlete who served his country and clubs very well. I have never been able to discern a single meaningful contribution by the Kardashians.
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Re: how good was David Beckham?

Postby kamikaze7 » Tue May 21, 2013 4:35 am

Sometime around 2003, the English national team visited South Africa upon which they were invited to visit Nelson Mandela. Paul Scholes and others declined while Beckham led the team to visit Mandela. Not only that but Beckham spent the entire trip visiting orphan children sanctuaries and doing other charity work. That episode told me everything I needed to know with regard to Scholes vs Beckham and who is a good ambassador for England.
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Re: how good was David Beckham?

Postby Rog » Tue May 21, 2013 6:19 am

Marlow wrote:
Rog wrote:If like me you can't stand David Beckham

As noted above, you're just jealous of a guy who had it all.
The Kardashian analogy is empty. Beckham was a great athlete who served his country and clubs very well. I have never been able to discern a single meaningful contribution by the Kardashians.


Definitely not jealous. Just a completely different kind of person. He's a moneygrabber and I'm all about zen :D

Seriously, there are a lot of people in the UK who don't like him. He has a certain image that is constantly rammed home through the media, but there's plenty of stuff that gets through (the affairs, the lack of time actually spent with his wife, the way he's always using his kids for photo opportunities) that suggests the image is a false one.

It's the phoniness that I can't stand. If you disagree with me though, that's fine.
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Re: how good was David Beckham?

Postby Marlow » Tue May 21, 2013 6:23 am

Rog wrote:I'm all about zen :D
It's the phoniness that I can't stand.

Zen people don't label others phonies, and they certainly don't harbor ill will towards others! :D

#4 in the Eightfold Path:
Right Speech - Speaking the truth in a helpful and compassionate way.
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Re: how good was David Beckham?

Postby Pego » Tue May 21, 2013 7:11 am

I know next to nothing about zen (don't care to learn), but I also instinctively dislike people that cannot live without having their name in the headlines constantly (deserved or not).
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Re: how good was David Beckham?

Postby Marlow » Tue May 21, 2013 7:22 am

Pego wrote: I also instinctively dislike people that cannot live without having their name in the headlines constantly (deserved or not).

Depends on whether they really are seeking that or the media is just obsessed with them. Does Jennifer Aniston want herself on every tabloid? I'll guess not.
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Re: how good was David Beckham?

Postby marknhj » Tue May 21, 2013 7:26 am

kamikaze7 wrote:Sometime around 2003, the English national team visited South Africa upon which they were invited to visit Nelson Mandela. Paul Scholes and others declined while Beckham led the team to visit Mandela. Not only that but Beckham spent the entire trip visiting orphan children sanctuaries and doing other charity work. That episode told me everything I needed to know with regard to Scholes vs Beckham and who is a good ambassador for England.


I had a team at the SoCal Special Olympics Championships in Long Beach about three or four years ago and he showed up with his kids. Low profile (relative, of course) and without a posse of minders, publicists or press. He was a marvelous ambassador for England and for football during his time in LA.
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Re: how good was David Beckham?

Postby Pego » Tue May 21, 2013 8:01 am

Marlow wrote:
Pego wrote: I also instinctively dislike people that cannot live without having their name in the headlines constantly (deserved or not).

Depends on whether they really are seeking that or the media is just obsessed with them. Does Jennifer Aniston want herself on every tabloid? I'll guess not.


I don't know about JA, but I know a few athletes that crave media attention. I'll leave it at that.
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Re: how good was David Beckham?

Postby TN1965 » Tue May 21, 2013 2:20 pm

Rog wrote:Definitely not jealous. Just a completely different kind of person. He's a moneygrabber and I'm all about zen :D


Yuu mean, like Barbra Streisand's "Zen Master" aka Andre Agassi? Wasn't "Image" everything for him? :lol:
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Re: how good was David Beckham?

Postby Athleticsimaging » Wed May 22, 2013 3:26 am

Marlow wrote:I have never been able to discern a single meaningful contribution by the Kardashians.


Dude, they keep this site reminiscing about how good an athlete Bruce was. Isn't that worth their worthlessness?
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Re: how good was David Beckham?

Postby Rog » Thu May 30, 2013 4:35 am

With reference to my earlier point about Beckham's use of his children to push the brand, I've just checked the website of one UK paper - "The Daily Mail" - and it turns out he has had 12 stories in that one paper this month alone involving his children. Here's a sample story:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/ar ... Romeo.html

This kind of PR is instigated by Beckham and his people to push the brand. My concern though is why he has to use his children so much to further build what must be a sizeable fortune? What kind of childhood are his kids having when they're part child, part product line? Do they wonder if they're kids or a revenue stream?
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Re: how good was David Beckham?

Postby gh » Thu May 30, 2013 5:08 am

at the Sharks/Kings playoff game the other night they flashed to Tom Cruise in the crowd, then noted that sitting right behind him were Beckham and his wife... each with a kid on their lap.
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Re: how good was David Beckham?

Postby Brian » Thu May 30, 2013 7:03 pm

Rog wrote: If like me you can't stand David Beckham...


And if [you're] like me, you're outrageously handsome and live in Northern Minnesota.
:]

Seriously though, I won't even try to pretend I am qualified to judge anyone's historical greatness at futbol/soccer.

But when I don't know someone personally--as in the case with celebrities--I tend to go more by their actions when the cameras AREN''T on them and rolling:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/footba ... amily.html
.
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Re: how good was David Beckham?

Postby Flumpy » Fri May 31, 2013 10:31 am

You should all remember that if it wasn't for Victoria 90% of you would never have heard of him.

However good a footballer he may have been, he's famous because Vicky saw the potential and used her Girl Power to make it happen.

He'd be nothing without his Spice Girl wife.
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Re: how good was David Beckham?

Postby Marlow » Fri May 31, 2013 1:02 pm

Flumpy wrote:You should all remember that if it wasn't for Victoria 90% of you would never have heard of him.

As a celebrity model, no, but his footballing career has nothing to do with her. He'd still be on a par with Cristiano Ronaldo, who is pretty danged famous.
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Re: how good was David Beckham?

Postby observer2 » Fri May 31, 2013 1:13 pm

Flumpy wrote:You should all remember that if it wasn't for Victoria 90% of you would never have heard of him.

However good a footballer he may have been, he's famous because Vicky saw the potential and used her Girl Power to make it happen.

He'd be nothing without his Spice Girl wife.


I guess you are talking about a small target group in USA. In Europe David Beckham is a great name and Victoria is his wife (who used to sing in a group called "Spice Girls" if mentioned)
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Re: how good was David Beckham?

Postby Marlow » Fri May 31, 2013 1:49 pm

observer2 wrote:I guess you are talking about a small target group in USA. In Europe David Beckham is a great name and Victoria is his wife (who used to sing in a group called "Spice Girls" if mentioned)

Flumpy is talking about the fact that Victoria invented his celebrity image, which has far surpassed his football persona. Americans know him much more as a celebrity, than we do as a footballer.
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Re: how good was David Beckham?

Postby Brian » Fri May 31, 2013 4:09 pm

Marlow wrote:
observer2 wrote:I guess you are talking about a small target group in USA. In Europe David Beckham is a great name and Victoria is his wife (who used to sing in a group called "Spice Girls" if mentioned)

Flumpy is talking about the fact that Victoria invented his celebrity image, which has far surpassed his football persona. Americans know him much more as a celebrity, than we do as a footballer.


Wouldn't argue either of the above points.

But this (boldface) says more about us--and our as a culture ridiculous obsession with celebrity--than it does Beckham.
.
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Re: how good was David Beckham?

Postby Marlow » Fri May 31, 2013 4:13 pm

Brian wrote:But this (boldface) says more about us--and our as a culture ridiculous obsession with celebrity--than it does Beckham..

Any culture that would make Paris Hilton and the Kardashians household names is in deep decline!!
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Re: how good was David Beckham?

Postby lonewolf » Fri May 31, 2013 4:40 pm

Marlow wrote:
Brian wrote:But this (boldface) says more about us--and our as a culture ridiculous obsession with celebrity--than it does Beckham..

Any culture that would make Paris Hilton and the Kardashians household names is in deep decline!!

Amen!
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Re: how good was David Beckham?

Postby Brian » Fri May 31, 2013 7:47 pm

lonewolf wrote:
Marlow wrote:
Brian wrote:But this (boldface) says more about us--and our as a culture ridiculous obsession with celebrity--than it does Beckham..

Any culture that would make Paris Hilton and the Kardashians household names is in deep decline!!

Amen!


And to complete the circle to track & field (how many remember this?):

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/liz-smith ... 25743.html

:]
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Re: how good was David Beckham?

Postby Flumpy » Sun Jun 02, 2013 12:46 pm

Marlow wrote:
Flumpy wrote:You should all remember that if it wasn't for Victoria 90% of you would never have heard of him.

As a celebrity model, no, but his footballing career has nothing to do with her. He'd still be on a par with Cristiano Ronaldo, who is pretty danged famous.


No. Without her he'd be Michael Owen or Alan Shearer. His fame as a footballer is intrinsically linked to his celebrity. I have no doubt he's was a great player but his legend is about so much more than that and that is 100% down to Victoria's PR skills.
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Re: how good was David Beckham?

Postby Flumpy » Sun Jun 02, 2013 1:05 pm

observer2 wrote:
Flumpy wrote:You should all remember that if it wasn't for Victoria 90% of you would never have heard of him.

However good a footballer he may have been, he's famous because Vicky saw the potential and used her Girl Power to make it happen.

He'd be nothing without his Spice Girl wife.


I guess you are talking about a small target group in USA. In Europe David Beckham is a great name and Victoria is his wife (who used to sing in a group called "Spice Girls" if mentioned)


That simply isn't true.

At the time of meeting she was one of the most famous women in the world. She still is. It may not be a world you understand but her picture on the cover of any magazine is guaranteed to generate a giant bump in sales and her fashion label is HUGE. She's done far more in her career to justify her level of fame than he has. To just dismiss her as some woman who used to be in pop group is absurd.

Even in the UK his fame could have been a completely transitory thing without her. It's not as if he has a great personality or was even much of a looker before Vicky took over. His footballing skills are one thing but we have many great footballers who don't even attain his level of fame. When they first met he was just one of any number of up and coming players. It's his association with Victoria that gave him the edge over the others and was the reason so many people outside of sports fans took notice of his football skills in the first place. He may have been on the sports pages before but she restyled him completely and put him on the front pages where he has stayed ever since.

How many billboards do you see Steve Gerrard or Frank Lampard on???
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Re: how good was David Beckham?

Postby Marlow » Sun Jun 02, 2013 1:17 pm

Flumpy wrote:At the time of meeting she was one of the most famous women in the world. She still is.

Not here she wasn't/isn't. They made each other famous here.
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Re: how good was David Beckham?

Postby Flumpy » Sun Jun 02, 2013 1:29 pm

That is absolutely not true. She's sold 20 million records in the US before she'd even married him.

Yes the 'Posh and Becks' brand may have made them together but that was totally driven by her celebrity to begin with.
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Re: how good was David Beckham?

Postby Marlow » Sun Jun 02, 2013 5:49 pm

Flumpy wrote:That is absolutely not true. She's sold 20 million records in the US before she'd even married him.
Yes the 'Posh and Becks' brand may have made them together but that was totally driven by her celebrity to begin with.

She didn't sell 20M, the Spice Girls did, and she was just another one of them. I seriously knew nothing about her till Bex married her.
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Re: how good was David Beckham?

Postby marknhj » Sun Jun 02, 2013 6:27 pm

Flump - you are 100% wrong. She's never been more than a very minor asterisk in the US. She's known as his wife who happens to be a former Spice Girl and I would say that the Spice Girl's recognition in present day America is mainly due to Becks.
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Re: how good was David Beckham?

Postby jazzcyclist » Sun Jun 02, 2013 7:05 pm

Flumpy wrote:That is absolutely not true. She's sold 20 million records in the US before she'd even married him.

Yes the 'Posh and Becks' brand may have made them together but that was totally driven by her celebrity to begin with.

I had never heard of her before she married Beckham. Hell, I barely knew who the Spice Girls were. What you have to remember is that the U.K. only makes up 1% of the world's popluation, and so it's unwise to assume that because someone is famous in the U.K., they are famous worldwide. Similarly, just because Kim Kardashian and Paris Hilton are well-known here, doesn't mean they are well-known outside of America despite the fact that the U.S. has five times the population of the U.K.
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Re: how good was David Beckham?

Postby lonewolf » Sun Jun 02, 2013 7:22 pm

I think I may be representative of the huge "culturally uniformed" mass of Americans. I don't remember being aware of the Spice "Girls or Beckham until they were married, became a couple or whatever.
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Re: how good was David Beckham?

Postby mump boy » Mon Jun 03, 2013 5:31 am

marknhj wrote:Flump - you are 100% wrong. She's never been more than a very minor asterisk in the US. She's known as his wife who happens to be a former Spice Girl and I would say that the Spice Girl's recognition in present day America is mainly due to Becks.


You're missing the point, there wouldn't be a brand 'Becks' without her. It was her celebrity, PR skills and vison that created them as a brand in the first place. There wouldn't have been anythign to sell in America or anywhere alse without her creating him

He is no better footballer than Michael Owen it was Victoria celebrity and re invention that took him onto the front pages and allowed him to be in a postion that anyone would want to recognise him worldwide

When they got engaged it wasn't because of him (or his looks) that put their photo on front page of every news paper in the UK (and many worldwide).

http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/ffximag ... /pb1,0.jpg

Flumpy isn't saying that she is more famous than him now but she certainly was when they met and it is her that has created the David Beckham that we see today.

Middle aged men may not have been aware of her but since when did that demographic create stars ?? In 1998 she was once of the most famous people in the world and on the front pages every single day,it was the association with her that made him a celebrity and them as a brand that took it over the top.
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Re: how good was David Beckham?

Postby Marlow » Mon Jun 03, 2013 6:36 am

mump boy wrote:You're missing the point, there wouldn't be a brand 'Becks' without her.

Yes, but THIS was Flump's statement, which is incorrect:

Flumpy wrote:That is absolutely not true. She's sold 20 million records in the US before she'd even married him. Yes the 'Posh and Becks' brand may have made them together but that was totally driven by her celebrity to begin with.
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Re: how good was David Beckham?

Postby Flumpy » Mon Jun 03, 2013 7:13 am

Nothing about that statement is incorrect.

Although maybe it was only 15m records.
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Re: how good was David Beckham?

Postby EPelle » Mon Jun 03, 2013 7:23 am

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