A Victory for Misbehaving Students


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A Victory for Misbehaving Students

Postby wamego relays champ » Fri May 17, 2013 6:45 am

"L.A. Unified bans suspension for 'willful defiance'"

http://articles.latimes.com/2013/may/14/local/la-me-lausd-suspension-20130515

"The proposal would ban suspensions of students for "willful defiance," an offense criticized as a subjective catch-all for such behavior as refusing to take off a hat, turn off a cellphone or failing to wear a school uniform. The offense accounted for 48% of 710,000 suspensions issued in California in 2011-12, prompting state and local efforts to restrict its use in disciplinary actions."

As someone who has not seen the inside of a high school classroom for over 30 years, this new policy sounds ludicrous, giving non-violent students a license to disrupt learning continuously without getting kicked out of school.

But then there are multiple layers to the story. While I am skeptical when advocates push for a new policy because the current one disproportionally affects one ethnic group, as a parent I have seen first-hand the wacky results of "zero-tolerance" discipline policies. We all certainly want graduation rates to improve, but is part of the answer to pollute the classroom learning environment with students that are so turned-off to learning that they repeatedly insist on not following classroom rules?

.
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Re: A Victory for Misbehaving Students

Postby Marlow » Fri May 17, 2013 8:33 am

wamego relays champ wrote:A. The offense accounted for 48% of 710,000 suspensions
B. giving non-violent students a license to disrupt learning continuously without getting kicked out of school.
C. I have seen first-hand the wacky results of "zero-tolerance" discipline policies.

You've hit the main points on why a 'measured response' is necessary, not a draconian one.
Don't throw the baby out with the bath water.
As one who HAS spent the last 20 years in a classroom (albeit a very well-behaved one), EVERY case is different and deserves to be heard on its own (de)merits. Suspending students for 'misdemeanors' is an over-reaction. There SHOULD be a swift, fair response to DISRESPECT at school (and life), but sometimes the best response is a sincere apology and a devotion to extinguishing the behavior in the student him/herself.
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Re: A Victory for Misbehaving Students

Postby batonless relay » Tue May 21, 2013 4:01 am

Marlow wrote:
wamego relays champ wrote:A. The offense accounted for 48% of 710,000 suspensions
B. giving non-violent students a license to disrupt learning continuously without getting kicked out of school.
C. I have seen first-hand the wacky results of "zero-tolerance" discipline policies.

You've hit the main points on why a 'measured response' is necessary, not a draconian one.
Don't throw the baby out with the bath water.
As one who HAS spent the last 20 years in a classroom (albeit a very well-behaved one), EVERY case is different and deserves to be heard on its own (de)merits. Suspending students for 'misdemeanors' is an over-reaction. There SHOULD be a swift, fair response to DISRESPECT at school (and life), but sometimes the best response is a sincere apology and a devotion to extinguishing the behavior in the student him/herself.

What an incredibly PC response. And incredibly naive, to be candid. "Measured" responses are the slippery slopes that add grease to the race to the bottom. Draconian is needed. I can see how a private school teacher would see it differently; those kids are politically covered from being punished.

But, when you have kids who define themselves by being disruptive then they should be removed from the school system and their parents should be forced to educate them on their dime and their time. Otherwise, those same bad kids become emboldened. Thankfully, this Florida judge, despite the ignorance of the county school bureaucrat, ruled that this child wasn't fit for ANY school in the county.

A Florida appeals court has since suspended the order by Florida circuit Judge Henry Davis, who wrote that the alleged attacker — so far unnamed — "is a threat to all of the children at any school. The injunction is a permanent injunction barring this child from returning to any public school in Duval County."

Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nationa ... z2TvalNE9p
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Re: A Victory for Misbehaving Students

Postby Marlow » Tue May 21, 2013 4:09 am

batonless relay wrote:What an incredibly PC response. And incredibly naive, to be candid.

You're confusing candid with downright foolish. Draconian measures are necessary for REAL offenses. This is a tempest in a teapot compared to some of the real stuff that goes on. Obviously you are NOT a teacher, so you're perspective is skewed by false judgement (not that non-teachers can't have a valid opinion on the subject, unlike yours.) The situation you cite is, OF COURSE, completely different (she BEAT and HOSPITALIZED another student!) and required swift action.
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Re: A Victory for Misbehaving Students

Postby batonless relay » Tue May 21, 2013 4:22 am

Marlow wrote:
batonless relay wrote:What an incredibly PC response. And incredibly naive, to be candid.

You're confusing candid with downright foolish. Draconian measures are necessary for REAL offenses. This is a tempest in a teapot compared to some of the real stuff that goes on. Obviously you are NOT a teacher, so you're perspective is skewed by false judgement (not that non-teachers can't have a valid opinion on the subject, unlike yours.) The situation you cite is, OF COURSE, completely different (she BEAT and HOSPITALIZED another student!) and required swift action.

No, you're confusing punishment with process. "Willful defiance" disrupts learning. Period. And, a student willfully disrupting learning should be removed from the class, or if necessary, the school. Stop being so PC. And, the "real stuff" is something you've shielded yourself from your entire life as a ward of the private school system (New England prep, Stanford, etc...). You're right, I'm not a teacher, but neither are you - in a school that has real problems. Now, I did once teach in a public school, and my experience, is that you remove the kids as they contaminate other students. You've purposely shielded yourself from that type of "teaching"; free to tell the horrors gleaned from other teachers as your own. YOU are the one who has no idea!

Also, you clearly didn't dig deeper into the Duval county case even though it happened in your backyard. That child had attacked 5 kids prior to hospitalizing that girl. 5 times! How PC do you have to be to let a child attack another child more than once? And, the appeal is to put her back in school? Thankfully, you don't work in a system that would challenge you more.
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Re: A Victory for Misbehaving Students

Postby Marlow » Tue May 21, 2013 6:21 am

batonless relay wrote:Thankfully, you don't work in a system that would challenge you more.

I'll leave it there, since you so clearly have no idea what you're talking about.
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Re: A Victory for Misbehaving Students

Postby batonless relay » Tue May 21, 2013 6:58 am

Marlow wrote:
batonless relay wrote:Thankfully, you don't work in a system that would challenge you more.

I'll leave it there, since you so clearly have no idea what you're talking about.

I'll take that as you being wrong and not wanting to admit it. Thanks.
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Re: A Victory for Misbehaving Students

Postby catson52 » Tue May 21, 2013 8:38 am

The single most important problems in "higher education" (I guess more at the univ. not school level) are/were:
(1) Running things primarily on business footing and lines. Hence the customer has always got to be right.
(2) Putting in any number of senior administrative posts that were primarily filled by academic incompetents. These people ensured (1) above is followed in all cases.

I taught for 25 years at a SEC school well known for being competitive at the national level in both football and baseball. Also basketball some years back, when we boasted of having "The Twin Towers" playing for us. By and large, very low academic standards at the faculty level. And if such "incompetents" teach students regularly, what can one expect? What is truly frightening is that some of the dregs of today's students, will make up the faculty of tomorrow. Academia is now truly for the birds.
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Re: A Victory for Misbehaving Students

Postby 18.99s » Wed May 22, 2013 3:51 am

wamego relays champ wrote:"L.A. Unified bans suspension for 'willful defiance'"

http://articles.latimes.com/2013/may/14/local/la-me-lausd-suspension-20130515

"The proposal would ban suspensions of students for "willful defiance," an offense criticized as a subjective catch-all for such behavior as refusing to take off a hat, turn off a cellphone or failing to wear a school uniform. The offense accounted for 48% of 710,000 suspensions issued in California in 2011-12, prompting state and local efforts to restrict its use in disciplinary actions."

As someone who has not seen the inside of a high school classroom for over 30 years, this new policy sounds ludicrous, giving non-violent students a license to disrupt learning continuously without getting kicked out of school.


No it doesn't. There are other effective ways of dealing with the disrupters and disrespectors, like sending them to the VP's office for a tongue-lashing, followed by detention. A whole week of it in some cases. Then if that still doesn't work you move to other options like suspension. Jumping directly to suspension for every little thing is dumb and counterproductive; it keeps them out of the classroom, which is what many of them want, and diminishes their education.

From the article:
"Disruptive students could still be removed from the classroom but they would no longer be sent home. Instead, school officials would be required to keep students on campus and hold them accountable through alternatives shown to be more effective."
That's what my high school did when I was growing up.
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Re: A Victory for Misbehaving Students

Postby wamego relays champ » Wed May 22, 2013 4:19 am

18.99s wrote:
wamego relays champ wrote:"L.A. Unified bans suspension for 'willful defiance'"


Then if that still doesn't work you move to other options like suspension.


I believe that the suspension option is off the table under the new ban, even for continuing defiance after multiple other penalties.

.
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Re: A Victory for Misbehaving Students

Postby Marlow » Wed May 22, 2013 4:33 am

wamego relays champ wrote:I believe that the suspension option is off the table under the new ban, even for continuing defiance after multiple other penalties.

The point is is that there's lots more options before suspension, which after all, gets them what they want - out of school. Community service around school, after hours, working for the maintenance people, cleaning toilets, scraping gum, etc., worked wonders for me when I wanted to be delinquent.
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Re: A Victory for Misbehaving Students

Postby gh » Wed May 22, 2013 6:19 am

the chasm between what may have been "delinquent" in your goodie-goodie mind and how thugs think is immeasurably vast.
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Re: A Victory for Misbehaving Students

Postby Marlow » Wed May 22, 2013 7:01 am

gh wrote:the chasm between what may have been "delinquent" in your goodie-goodie mind and how thugs think is immeasurably vast.

Oh, so thugs like toilet cleaning and gum cleaning.
Regardless, let's differentiate between the miscreants and the hard-core thugs. This policy doesn't do that and that's the (huge) problem. There's a vast difference between the kid who has ADHD tendencies (if that had been as common a diagnosis THEN as it is now, i'da been it, fo sho!) and the sociopaths. I'm trying to protect my 15-year-old self from this decision, the kid you yourself call goodie-goodie (can you please explain that to my 1966 parents!).
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Re: A Victory for Misbehaving Students

Postby batonless relay » Wed May 22, 2013 8:52 am

Marlow wrote:
gh wrote:the chasm between what may have been "delinquent" in your goodie-goodie mind and how thugs think is immeasurably vast.

... I'm trying to protect my 15-year-old self from this decision, the kid you yourself call goodie-goodie (can you please explain that to my 1966 parents!).

it's always about you, isn't it? Don't you understand that you can't MAKE anyone do anything that they don't want to do? And, certainly not a kid, hell bent on causing mischief, who knows that you can't really do anything to them. The law needs to allow that they be removed from the schools.

I say F*** the one(s) to save the thousands.
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Re: A Victory for Misbehaving Students

Postby jazzcyclist » Wed May 22, 2013 10:35 am

I think that if Marlow spent one year teaching at an inner-city hogh school in a place like Chicago, New Orleans or Los Angeles, he would have an epiphany.
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Re: A Victory for Misbehaving Students

Postby 26mi235 » Wed May 22, 2013 3:39 pm

batonless relay wrote:
Marlow wrote:
gh wrote:the chasm between what may have been "delinquent" in your goodie-goodie mind and how thugs think is immeasurably vast.

... I'm trying to protect my 15-year-old self from this decision, the kid you yourself call goodie-goodie (can you please explain that to my 1966 parents!).

it's always about you, isn't it? Don't you understand that you can't MAKE anyone do anything that they don't want to do? And, certainly not a kid, hell bent on causing mischief, who knows that you can't really do anything to them. The law needs to allow that they be removed from the schools.

I say F*** the one(s) to save the thousands.


And you would get it wrong. A lot of students (very good ones) turn off of school for reactions that seem clearly wrong or out of proportion. A lot of the so-called quick/hard discipline causes more problems than you would think. Unless you really know about that aspect, I suggest that you write a little less certainty.
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Re: A Victory for Misbehaving Students

Postby Marlow » Wed May 22, 2013 4:02 pm

jazzcyclist wrote:I think that if Marlow spent one year teaching at an inner-city hogh school in a place like Chicago, New Orleans or Los Angeles, he would have an epiphany.

And yet there are many, many highly successful inner-city teachers. I already know the 'epiphany' i would have - that students everywhere desperately want to succeed but have many huge obstacles in their way. The teacher has one job, and one job only: to 'facilitate' the students' own motivation to learn. A good teacher only has to teach self-motivation. The student does all the rest. Believe it or not, I have many students who would rather be at the beach than in school (**GASP**), so I find ways to help them see what is to be gained in the classroom. The more recalcitrant the student, the more fun it is to work with them. Straight-A students don't need my help; they're already on their way.
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Re: A Victory for Misbehaving Students

Postby Daisy » Wed May 22, 2013 6:31 pm

Marlow wrote:The more recalcitrant the student, the more fun it is to work with them.

I think the point here is that recalcitrant is a relative term. Can dreaming of the beach really be put into the same context as wanting to stab someone in the classroom?

I have had disruptive students before, and in general I have tried to focus on the positive as a way to disarm them. But we're not talking extreme recalcitrance. I notice from this article that this does seem to be a good approach but the timing seems to be critical. Possibly this is something that some teachers could never pull off. And in many cases the time spent is taken from other students. I can see how when resources are stretched the schools would rather be rid of such students.
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Re: A Victory for Misbehaving Students

Postby jhc68 » Wed May 22, 2013 8:41 pm

I taught in public schools for almost exactly half my now increasingly long life and the vast majority of students were people with normal social interactions and talents. Some were intellectually over-the-top and wonderful, positive personalities. Some had learning disabilites and longed to be anywhere on earth that was not an academic classroom. And most were somewhere on the continuim in between. Children of all stripes occasionally made bad decisions and almost all learned from the consequences that resulted. Not many really needed to be suspended or expelled.

That being said, in my experience a recalitrant student is entirely different from a willfully defiant student. Recalcitrant students never bothered me a bit and some, as Marlow indicates, were fun to work with, while others, as Marlow ignores, were no fun at all.

Still we almost always managed to reach some sort of working relationship. I vividly recall one girl whose first semester with me amounted to a daily, very unpleasant contest of wills. At the semester she was transferred to a different teacher's section purely as a quirk of scheduling but she came to see me and asked back in my classroom because, as she put it, "we had finally gotten to know what to expect from one another!" So it was with most students and teachers.

But there were a very few kids who really met the criteria for willfull defiance. Most of those students were eventually removed from school at least for the short term, usually because they ran afoul of behavioral rules much more specific than "willfull defiance." Of those children some returned and were able to adjust to classroom expectations, others went to alternative school settings where expectations were different, some dropped out, and some few were incarcerated.

Those unfortunate kids fell way outside the realm of bored or recalcitrant of just plain negative behaviors. For whatever nature/nurture reasons, these kids absolutely defied normal behavioral demands: they were drugged or sold drugs or were violent criminals or were sexually aggressive... the list could go on and on. But the common thread is that they were willfully (not just casually, but willfully) defiant of any authority and their presence negatively impacted their cohorts and the whole purpose of the educational structure.

As in any goal-oriented process, some individuals whose attitudes and behaviors are too counterproductive have to be excluded. Every business eventually has to fire dishonest or disruptive employees and every track coach will eventually have athletes (sometimes talented ones) whose behavior cannot be tolerated in a team setting. It should not be a quick decision or a first reaction but suspension or expulsion of people who purposefully refuse to follow norms of behavior has to be a last option.
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Re: A Victory for Misbehaving Students

Postby Marlow » Thu May 23, 2013 4:17 am

Daisy wrote:Recalcitrant is a relative term. Can dreaming of the beach really be put into the same context as wanting to stab someone in the classroom?

We're not talking about the truly malicious and violent. The term used was 'disruptive'. I have disruptive students; all teachers do. We deal with it; we don't suspend them. If I had a truly bad student, yeah, I'd want him suspended too. That has always been a viable option and always will be. If a kid poses a threat in the classroom, he's outta there, no matter how the rules read.
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Re: A Victory for Misbehaving Students

Postby batonless relay » Thu May 23, 2013 5:38 am

jazzcyclist wrote:I think that if Marlow spent one year teaching at an inner-city hogh school in a place like Chicago, New Orleans or Los Angeles, he would have an epiphany.

It blows the mind that he can equate a christian private school with some of the worst of rural and inner city America and attempt to make people who know better that he's some kind of authority on REAL "delinquency/recalcitrance".
26mi235 wrote:
batonless relay wrote:
Marlow wrote:... I'm trying to protect my 15-year-old self from this decision, the kid you yourself call goodie-goodie (can you please explain that to my 1966 parents!).

it's always about you, isn't it? Don't you understand that you can't MAKE anyone do anything that they don't want to do? And, certainly not a kid, hell bent on causing mischief, who knows that you can't really do anything to them. The law needs to allow that they be removed from the schools.

I say F*** the one(s) to save the thousands.

And you would get it wrong. A lot of students (very good ones) turn off of school for reactions that seem clearly wrong or out of proportion. A lot of the so-called quick/hard discipline causes more problems than you would think. Unless you really know about that aspect, I suggest that you write a little less certainty.

You don't know that! And you don't know me. You're wrong with your incomprehensibly inflexible take that no child can be punished, in addition to ascribing things to me that I never wrote. I think jhc68 hits it on the head. Separately, a very good friend of mine studied under Ted Sizer and the Teach for America program; it was his goal to teach at "one of the worst high schools in America". He. Was. A. Do. Gooder. He got Brooklyn, NY and he got his eyes OPENED and his head forcibly removed from the sand! He "prepared" with the theoretical, he was unprepared for the practical. And, that's why one of the definitions of academic ... is not relevant or immediately pertinent. I don't know how you're ever going to understand if you haven't been there or lived it, but you might need to go watch all 5 seasons of "The Wire". Twice.

John D. Rockefeller was a bookeeper at age 16. If kids reach 15.5 years and they show no interest in school or the authority of a school then they should be home-schooled or prepped for a drivers license and a G.E.D. and shown the door. 2 more years of baby-sitting has to end.
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Re: A Victory for Misbehaving Students

Postby Marlow » Thu May 23, 2013 3:49 pm

batonless relay wrote:You don't know that! And you don't know me. You're wrong with your incomprehensibly inflexible take . . .

Oh . . . My . . .goodness . . . You need to read that every time you make your attacks on others. You know absolutely nothing about my situation and yet you're so quick to dismiss me.
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Re: A Victory for Misbehaving Students

Postby gh » Thu May 23, 2013 4:25 pm

if you pontificated less, you'd be be less dismissable; your personal life experience does not equal reality, yet that's the one constant in your posts (on all subjects).
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Re: A Victory for Misbehaving Students

Postby Marlow » Thu May 23, 2013 5:06 pm

gh wrote:if you pontificated less, you'd be be less dismissable; your personal life experience does not equal reality, yet that's the one constant in your posts (on all subjects).

Yes because we all know that 20 years as a US Navy officer and 20 more as a teacher and coach gives me no REAL life experience, as opposed to your life experiences. Speaking of hubris. What you dismiss as 'pontificating' is merely your complete misperception of my perspective. If I actually had any ego at all, I'd have left this board long, long ago, as your administrative and personal dislike of me has been so obvious. Others have left for less. You own the only game in town, a game I have always wanted to play but your personal nastiness is obviously my price to play.
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Re: A Victory for Misbehaving Students

Postby Daisy » Thu May 23, 2013 6:47 pm

Marlow wrote:Others have left for less.

Or is that the regulars dying off? And what ever happened to squackee and guru? Hopefully still lurking?
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Re: A Victory for Misbehaving Students

Postby SQUACKEE » Fri May 24, 2013 2:20 am

Daisy wrote:
Marlow wrote:Others have left for less.

Or is that the regulars dying off? And what ever happened to squackee and guru? Hopefully still lurking?


Hi Mr. Daisy, as you are one of my all time favorite posters here I wanted to respond to your question. Yes I do lurk a little. I hope everyone enjoys this message board, I had to leave because the price was too high, I already endured one oppressive Daddy and at 60 years old, those days are over.
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Re: A Victory for Misbehaving Students

Postby batonless relay » Fri May 24, 2013 5:02 am

Marlow wrote:
gh wrote:"if you pontificated less, you'd be be less dismissable; your personal life experience does not equal reality, yet that's the one constant in your posts (on all subjects)."

Yes because we all know that 20 years as a US Navy officer and 20 more as a teacher and coach gives me no REAL life experience, as opposed to your life experiences. Speaking of hubris. What you dismiss as 'pontificating' is merely your complete misperception of my perspective. If I actually had any ego at all, I'd have left this board long, long ago, as your administrative and personal dislike of me has been so obvious. Others have left for less. You own the only game in town, a game I have always wanted to play but your personal nastiness is obviously my price to play.

Uh, Marlow? It's you. gh isn't the only one tired of your COMPULSION to "educate" the rest of us to your inflexible point of view. Your certainty on matters that you clearly know little/nothing about grates on people - especially when they know a little more. Like what? gun ownership, smoking, drinking, religion, sex, coaching, development, etiquette, decorum, meets, the circuit, the iaaf, WC, Olympics ... I could go on. You don't seem to recognize that you're not an authority on everything. You need to remember that we're not your students or "your athletes", and based upon your constant open window to YOUR world, many of us think you need a bit MORE living before you start telling everyone else what to do and how to do it. Yes, that would be an invitation to get out more. I've had my issues with gh but he hit the nail on the head when he said, "if you pontificated less, you'd be be less dismissable; your personal life experience does not equal reality, yet that's the one constant in your posts (on all subjects)." Emphasis mine. :wink:
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Re: A Victory for Misbehaving Students

Postby jazzcyclist » Fri May 24, 2013 5:34 am

Batonless relay, I think the piling on was unnecessary. You contribute some insightful posts to this board, but I would personally appreciate it you spent more time attacking the messages and less time attacking the messengers. Can't we all get along? :(
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Re: A Victory for Misbehaving Students

Postby Pego » Fri May 24, 2013 5:47 am

I agree. This is a message board, after all. I have crossed swords with quite a few posters, many of whom I consider personal friends. Even if the voices are raised, there is no need for ad hominem, which is unfortunately employed way too often.
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Re: A Victory for Misbehaving Students

Postby batonless relay » Fri May 24, 2013 5:50 am

jazzcyclist wrote:Batonless relay, I think the piling on was unnecessary. You contribute some insightful posts to this board, but I would personally appreciate it you spent more time attacking the messages and less time attacking the messengers. Can't we all get along? :(

Piling on? That's Marlow's M.O., or have you been paying attention? I could show you numerous examples of Marlow being an instigator of exactly what you're accusing me of, but why bother, you've made up your mind. Anyway, he just got a bit of his own medicine, whether it was necessary or not. That said, take your own advice: stop attacking the messengers (numerous examples of you doing it, too), maybe you'll start a trend so that we can all get along.
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Re: A Victory for Misbehaving Students

Postby Marlow » Fri May 24, 2013 6:00 am

batonless relay wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote:Batonless relay, I think the piling on was unnecessary.

have you been paying attention?
take your own advice: stop attacking the messengers

BR, spreading sunshine and making friends everywhere he goes. I fully accept your acrimony, and I see its origin clearly. You can 'pile on' all you wish, my dear. As for gh, he can also do what he wishes, this being his board and all, including the ad hominem that he bans others for.
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Re: A Victory for Misbehaving Students

Postby batonless relay » Fri May 24, 2013 6:12 am

Marlow wrote:
batonless relay wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote:Batonless relay, I think the piling on was unnecessary.

have you been paying attention?
take your own advice: stop attacking the messengers

-spreading sunshine and making friends everywhere he goes.
-my dear.
-...including the ad hominem that he bans others for.

as I said, "it's you."
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Re: A Victory for Misbehaving Students

Postby Marlow » Fri May 24, 2013 6:14 am

batonless relay wrote:as I said, "it's you."

Of course it's me; who else could it be? It is, of course, also you . . .
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Re: A Victory for Misbehaving Students

Postby batonless relay » Fri May 24, 2013 6:29 am

Marlow wrote:
batonless relay wrote:as I said, "it's you."

Of course it's me; who else could it be? It is, of course, also you . . .

But we would expect you not to accept full responsibility. Anyway, back to the thread.

Any number of teachers feel just like these two.
“Imagine having five of those kids in your class at one time,” she said, describing what sounded like a year from hell. She made repeated attempts to get the five children into special ed so they could get the help that she felt they needed. In some cases, it took almost the entire year to make it happen.

Another teacher described her experiences with a child whose disorder led to vile outbursts and terrible conduct in class. While the child was ultimately moved into a program for students with emotional and behavior disorders, he was in class long enough to impede the performance of other classmates.

No more PC crap. We need to rid the schools of these kids.
batonless relay
 
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