Footnote Athletes


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Re: Footnote Athletes

Postby bambam » Sat Apr 27, 2013 2:03 am

KDFINE wrote:Duncan Edwards it was. I think he survived the crash for about two weeks before dying of his injuries.
Getting back to Lew Hoad, I think Pancho Gonzales said something to the effect that if earth needed a representative in an intergalactic match he'd pick Hoad. Hoad was the best amateur in '57 and the best pro for a short time. No mere footnote! I'm writing this as a great fan of Rosewall. Its nice to be able to have been able to root for someone for what seemed like eons.


That's exactly what Gonzales said about Hoad.
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Re: Footnote Athletes

Postby bambam » Sat Apr 27, 2013 2:04 am

cullman wrote:Donald Jackson woulda and coulda been an Olympic gold medalist and multiple World Champion.


Jackson known for one of the great free skate performances ever to win the 1962 Worlds.
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Re: Footnote Athletes

Postby bambam » Sat Apr 27, 2013 2:05 am

no one wrote:the goat did fine against Alcindor and Chamberlain. At the end of his career, when asked who was the best player he ever played against Jabbar smiled and replied "the goat" Pretty good endorsement.


The quote I had heard was that Alcindor (early days) said the best he had ever played against was Connie Hawkins (pre-NBA), from his Rucker days, when he was banned because of potential point-shaving.
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Re: Footnote Athletes

Postby bambam » Sat Apr 27, 2013 2:07 am

cullman wrote:also...
Baseball: Karl Spooner
Basketball: Raymond Lewis, Ronnie Fields, Pee Wee Kirkland
Golf: Ed White


You can really learn something on this board - I had never heard of Ed White and went and looked him up. I think you're correct that he makes this list. Thanx for teaching me.
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Re: Footnote Athletes

Postby bambam » Sat Apr 27, 2013 2:10 am

bijanc wrote:Baseball: Herb Score, Tony Conigliaro, Ray Fosse, Wayne Simpson, Lyman Bostock
Pro Football: Greg Cook, David Overstreet, Ernie Davis, Joe Delaney, Darryl Stingley
Basketball: Sherm White, Ed Warner, Roger Brown, Lenny Bias
T & F: Skeets Nehemiah, Steve Williams, Mary Decker, Ana Fidelia Quirot


Some great choices above - Score, Conig, Ernie Davis (absolutely), Bias, and Nehemiah - I had Steve Williams. Not so sure about Darryl Stingley - good but maybe not great, although obviously a tragic end.
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Re: Footnote Athletes

Postby DrJay » Sat Apr 27, 2013 3:01 am

Basketball-Sam Bowie. Fought injury far more often than healthy.

Alan Webb will eventually be on this list.
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Re: Footnote Athletes

Postby DrJay » Sat Apr 27, 2013 3:13 am

Baseball-Mark "The Bird" Fidrych. I had not realized what a short career he had--only one meaningful season--till I heard a recent NPR story about him. From wiki:

In one of Bill James' baseball books, he quoted the Yankees' Graig Nettles as telling about an at-bat against Fidrych, who, as usual, was talking to the ball before pitching to Nettles. Immediately Graig jumped out of the batter's box and started talking to his bat. He reportedly said, "Never mind what he says to the ball. You just hit it over the outfield fence!" Nettles struck out. "Damn," he said. "Japanese bat. Doesn't understand a word of English."
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Re: Footnote Athletes

Postby gh » Sat Apr 27, 2013 5:57 am

bambam wrote:
cullman wrote:Donald Jackson woulda and coulda been an Olympic gold medalist and multiple World Champion.


Jackson known for one of the great free skate performances ever to win the 1962 Worlds.


Didn't he get a 6.0 even after falling down? Cuz he did the first triple something or other perhaps?
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Re: Footnote Athletes

Postby Pego » Sat Apr 27, 2013 7:24 am

gh wrote:
bambam wrote:
cullman wrote:Donald Jackson woulda and coulda been an Olympic gold medalist and multiple World Champion.


Jackson known for one of the great free skate performances ever to win the 1962 Worlds.


Didn't he get a 6.0 even after falling down? Cuz he did the first triple something or other perhaps?


Triple Lutz at the Prague Worlds in 1962. I saw it on TV live :D .
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Re: Footnote Athletes

Postby gh » Sat Apr 27, 2013 7:46 am

I remember Dick Button nearly spoiling his tux in doing the Wide World Of Sports commentary.
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Re: Footnote Athletes

Postby Conor Dary » Sat Apr 27, 2013 7:50 am

I was in the building when top gymnast Gary Morava broke his neck on a mini-tramp at Southern Illinois. Unlike Brian Sternberg, in a similar accident, Morava didn't survive.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1 ... 19,5817279
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Re: Footnote Athletes

Postby odelltrclan » Sat Apr 27, 2013 8:19 am

Conor Dary wrote:I was in the building when top gymnast Gary Morava broke his neck on a mini-tramp at Southern Illinois. Unlike Brian Sternberg, in a similar accident, Morava didn't survive.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1 ... 19,5817279


Find it interesting the piece below that, where it says Pete Rose, NL MVP, was signed for $155,000, the highest in club history. Talk about amazing changes from then to now . .
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Re: Footnote Athletes

Postby Conor Dary » Sat Apr 27, 2013 8:26 am

I hadn't read much on that page. I also noticed Oregon State finally got an 'all-weather' track.
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Re: Footnote Athletes

Postby bijanc » Sat Apr 27, 2013 8:31 am

MLB: Ken Hubbs, Roy Campanella

Not sure how effective Duke guards Bobby Hurley and Jason Williams would have been in the NBA- neither was a Janet Lynn or Steve Williams.

Cincy's Royals would have won some NBA crowns, had Mo Stokes teamed w/ all-pros Oscar Robertson, Jack Twyman and Jerry Lucas. Stokes was confined to a mobile chair a couple years before O's rookie campaign.
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Re: Footnote Athletes

Postby no one » Sat Apr 27, 2013 8:32 am

that Alcindor/Jabbar - could never make up his mind - needless to say there were big time athletes @ Ruckers - spanning several decades no?
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Re: Footnote Athletes

Postby Conor Dary » Sat Apr 27, 2013 8:33 am

I already mentioned Hubbs.
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Re: Footnote Athletes

Postby KDFINE » Sat Apr 27, 2013 8:49 am

Campy as a footnote! Ridiculous! Three times MVP and Hall of Fame. He was already on the decline when he had his auto accident. Fortunately for his legacy he got to the major leagues while he still had a lot left. Not to many get to the big leagues when they are 27 years old.
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Re: Footnote Athletes

Postby bijanc » Sat Apr 27, 2013 8:52 am

Even fewer are catching f/ the Nicetown Giants when they are 15.
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Re: Footnote Athletes

Postby Per Andersen » Sat Apr 27, 2013 10:01 am

Sprints - John Carlos. ITA happened so no Carlos-Borzov in "71 and '72.
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Re: Footnote Athletes

Postby bambam » Sat Apr 27, 2013 10:09 am

gh wrote:I remember Dick Button nearly spoiling his tux in doing the Wide World Of Sports commentary.


I remember that too
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Re: Footnote Athletes

Postby cullman » Sat Apr 27, 2013 11:25 am

bambam wrote:
gh wrote:I remember Dick Button nearly spoiling his tux in doing the Wide World Of Sports commentary.


I remember that too

There are a few figure skating geeks that collect and trade old film and video. The Donald Jackson skate and post skate interview as well as clips of the 1961 US Nationals are on youtube.
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Re: Footnote Athletes

Postby gh » Sat Apr 27, 2013 11:35 am

Per Andersen wrote:Sprints - John Carlos. ITA happened so no Carlos-Borzov in "71 and '72.


except ITA didn't sign anybody until post-Munich, with first season in '73, so had nothing to do with Carlos.
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Re: Footnote Athletes

Postby Conor Dary » Sat Apr 27, 2013 12:50 pm

Per Andersen wrote:Sprints - John Carlos. ITA happened so no Carlos-Borzov in "71 and '72.


It is hard to imagine anyone less of footnote than Carlos or as mentioned Campanella.

What is this thread about? The premise, as I understand, is about athletes who because of some misfortune, injury, or in most cases dying, never had a chance to show their early promise. Carlos had his chance: The 1968 Olympics and did relatively well, plus all of the other races he ran.
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Re: Footnote Athletes

Postby jhc68 » Sat Apr 27, 2013 4:18 pm

"Footnote athlete" is obviously pretty tough to define. To me it implies a certain element of fabulous potential along with a heavy dose of coulda, woulda, shoulda beens.

I still can't see a Lew Hoad fitting that category: He was an International Tennis Hall of Famer, Sport Australia Hall of Famer and his obit ran in the NYTimes... that's pretty main stream in my view and an athlete of his stature shouldn't be categorized as a footnote.

Sure Hoad got screwed by the whole professionalisim transition in tennis, but not nearly as much as Rod Laver. Laver won the grand slam in 1962 and then after turning pro was left out for most of five years, then won the grand slam again in 1969. How many more majors could he have won during those lost years?

Regardless, no way Rod Laver is a footnote to the sport. But he deserves an asterisk of on the list of major title winners... he also deserves something for being one of the classiest champions in any sport. I met Laver a couple of times and know people who know him very well, and he seems universally regarded as one of the nicest guys on earth!

I'm all in with Per nominating Yashchencko - the last straddle WR-holder and absent career ending injuries may well have pushed the WR to 2.40.

Another trackster is Eddie Morris... 9.6 and 20.7 straightaway at Huntington Beach HS in 1940, then tears a hammie and he's all done. Don Potts estimated that the 1940 Morris would have been among the top HS 10 sprinters nationally five decades later.

And Wes Santee, of course.

Of the original post names, Hall and Looney are foot-note-able legends. Earl Manigault is a footnote phantom. A 6'1" guy on the playground who could grab dollar bills off the TOP of a standard backboard? It never could have happened but it makes a hell of an interesting, enduring footworthy fable.
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Re: Footnote Athletes

Postby bambam » Sat Apr 27, 2013 6:57 pm

Yeah, Hoad had a good career but I put him in there because he's sorta one of those guys known mostly to the cognoscenti of the sport or sports in general.
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Re: Footnote Athletes

Postby Per Andersen » Sat Apr 27, 2013 10:53 pm

Conor Dary wrote:
Per Andersen wrote:Sprints - John Carlos. ITA happened so no Carlos-Borzov in "71 and '72.


It is hard to imagine anyone less of footnote than Carlos or as mentioned Campanella.

What is this thread about? The premise, as I understand, is about athletes who because of some misfortune, injury, or in most cases dying, never had a chance to show their early promise. Carlos had his chance: The 1968 Olympics and did relatively well, plus all of the other races he ran.

Carlos fits the bill. Social reasons. His career was unfulfilled in my opinion. He was on top of his game in 1969-70. So he turned to Football after the 1970 season. He was about 25. One more season and he could have met Borzov.

BTW Lew Hoad sure as hell was no footnote.
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Re: Footnote Athletes

Postby gh » Sun Apr 28, 2013 5:37 am

bijanc wrote:Baseball: Herb Score, Tony Conigliaro, Ray Fosse, Wayne Simpson, Lyman Bostock
Pro Football: Greg Cook, David Overstreet, Ernie Davis, Joe Delaney, Darryl Stingley
Basketball: Sherm White, Ed Warner, Roger Brown, Lenny Bias
T & F: Skeets Nehemiah, Steve Williams, Mary Decker, Ana Fidelia Quirot


Yikes! somehow my original response to this ended up on a banned thread.

Re Conigliaro, coincidentally, he was the answer to a trivia question on local baseball radio this afternoon. "Who hit the most home runs as a teenager?"
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Re: Footnote Athletes

Postby jhc68 » Sun Apr 28, 2013 7:13 am

Yeah I wondered if you had begun banning yourself!?!
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Re: Footnote Athletes

Postby KDFINE » Sun Apr 28, 2013 7:48 am

Lindy McDaniel's younger brother Von. I think he won 15 games in his first or second season and did nothing after that, having arm toubles. Whoever it was that mentioned Karl Spooner was spot on. He was in double digits for strikeouts in his first two major league shutout wins,and then ran into arm trouble. I still have my all black Karl Spooner model Nokona baseball mitt.
Another genuine footnote athlete was Lowell Perry. I think he was NFL rookie of the year in '56 or so, broke his pelvis, and never played again. He played end for the Steelers and then I think may have moved into the front office.
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Re: Footnote Athletes

Postby cullman » Sun Apr 28, 2013 12:30 pm

Another player blacklisted by the NBA for failing to report a bribe attempt was St. John's two time All-American Tony Jackson.
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/02/sport ... .html?_r=0

Roy Emerson is almost a footnote...even with his 12 Singles Grand Slam Titles from 1961-7.
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Re: Footnote Athletes

Postby Conor Dary » Sun Apr 28, 2013 12:42 pm

cullman wrote:Another player blacklisted by the NBA for failing to report a bribe attempt was St. John's Tony Jackson.
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/02/sport ... .html?_r=0

Roy Emerson is almost a footnote...even with his 12 Singles Grand Slam Titles from 1961-7.


If you are talking about a popularity contest, yea I guess Roy Emerson is a footnote.

I see this thread is becoming the endless nonsense I thought would happen. Some athletes are better remembered, for various reasons, than others. But really who cares? And it is infinite.

However, there are some interesting tales of athletes, such as Ken Hubbs and Lillian Board who were on the beginning of their careers and died or had a tragic accident. Sort of the James Deans of their sport. Or they did one extraordinary thing out of a rather mediocre career, such as MIke Donald who in 1990, twice, led by 2 strokes with 3 holes to go in the US Open and ended up losing the title. And it wasn't long til he was off the Tour altogether.

There are a lot of interesting names that I am sure people could come up with that I haven't heard of. Those are the real footnote people. Not some guy who won 12 GS titles, and no one cares about anymore.

Another way to look at is something like an article I read in The Economist years ago.
The article was about the type of person who would warrant an Obit in a newspaper, such as The Times but not a full biography. It was a fascinating article, with one example being
a Cambridge U. fellow, who if I remember right, bowled only one ball of first class cricket in his career and he got the great Don Bradman out on it.
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Re: Footnote Athletes

Postby bambam » Sun Apr 28, 2013 2:29 pm

Conor Dary wrote:It was a fascinating article, with one example being
a Cambridge U. fellow, who if I remember right, bowled only one ball of first class cricket in his career and he got the great Don Bradman out on it.


Like Archie "Moonlight" Graham
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Re: Footnote Athletes

Postby bijanc » Sun Apr 28, 2013 2:48 pm

Mack Lee Hill.
Jim "Yazoo" Smith
Les "Sugar" Cain
Roy Foster (1970 Sporting News AL R.O.Y.)
Salvador Sanchez
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Re: Footnote Athletes

Postby Bruce Kritzler » Sun Apr 28, 2013 2:50 pm

Conor Dary wrote:I was in the building when top gymnast Gary Morava broke his neck on a mini-tramp at Southern Illinois. Unlike Brian Sternberg, in a similar accident, Morava didn't survive.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1 ... 19,5817279


And parents still buy trampolines for their backyards?
Last edited by Bruce Kritzler on Sun Apr 28, 2013 10:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Footnote Athletes

Postby Conor Dary » Sun Apr 28, 2013 5:15 pm

bambam wrote:
Conor Dary wrote:It was a fascinating article, with one example being
a Cambridge U. fellow, who if I remember right, bowled only one ball of first class cricket in his career and he got the great Don Bradman out on it.


Like Archie "Moonlight" Graham


Or more recently....

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_Gre ... aseball%29
Last edited by Conor Dary on Sun Apr 28, 2013 5:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Footnote Athletes

Postby bambam » Sun Apr 28, 2013 5:39 pm

Bruce Kritzler wrote:
Conor Dary wrote:I was in the building when top gymnast Gary Morava broke his neck on a mini-tramp at Southern Illinois. Unlike Brian Sternberg, in a similar accident, Morava didn't survive.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1 ... 19,5817279


And parents still by trampolines for their backyards?


As an orthopaedic resident I treated three different people who were rendered quadriplegic from trampoline accidents. Absolutely, I think they should be banned. Hell, New Yorks bans large soft drinks, but we allow trampolines??? Yeah, that makes sense.
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Re: Footnote Athletes

Postby 26mi235 » Sun Apr 28, 2013 7:34 pm

DrJay wrote:Basketball-Sam Bowie. Fought injury far more often than healthy.

Alan Webb will eventually be on this list.


Bill Walton -- he hit 21 of 22 (22 of 23?) shots in the NCAA Finals, great college center, but fragile in his still very good NBA career.


He was not a footnote by any means, but think if Koufax had not had problems with his arm (problems that now would have been more easily addressed, and of course, he was throwing 300+ innings a year).
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Re: Footnote Athletes

Postby cullman » Sun Apr 28, 2013 11:27 pm

Conor Dary wrote:
cullman wrote:Another player blacklisted by the NBA for failing to report a bribe attempt was St. John's Tony Jackson.
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/02/sport ... .html?_r=0

Roy Emerson is almost a footnote...even with his 12 Singles Grand Slam Titles from 1961-7.


If you are talking about a popularity contest, yea I guess Roy Emerson is a footnote...

I said almost. :) Emmo was dominant in the mid-60s but is considered a footnote by many historians because most of his GS singles wins were during a period when Gonzales, Laver and Rosewall were barnstorming on the pro circuit.
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Re: Footnote Athletes

Postby cullman » Sun Apr 28, 2013 11:46 pm

Speaking of a "cup of coffee" in the big leagues...anybody hear of Larry Kwong? Kwong played one shift for the New York Rangers in 1948 and may go from footnote to Hall Of Fame. He later became a star playing against Jean Beliveau and Jacques Plante in the Quebec Senior League.

Link: Larry Kwongs Shift For Rangers in 1947-8 Broke A Barrier - NY Times
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Re: Footnote Athletes

Postby Powell » Mon Apr 29, 2013 12:52 am

bambam wrote:As an orthopaedic resident I treated three different people who were rendered quadriplegic from trampoline accidents. Absolutely, I think they should be banned. Hell, New Yorks bans large soft drinks, but we allow trampolines??? Yeah, that makes sense.


By that logic, aren't you shocked they haven't banned motorcycles (or cars, for that matter)?
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