the Boston bombers thread


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Re: the Boston bombers thread

Postby kevinsdad » Sun Apr 21, 2013 3:36 pm

Friar wrote:
expectations of law enforcement

While LE seem to be getting high marks I don't think upon more serious examination the good feelings are going to hold up.
Even without any photographic evidence I would hope that all "watch list" residents of greater Boston would have been picked up as a matter of course. That apparently wasn't something that was attempted in the aftermath.


I hope that by "picked up" you mean questioned, as, thankfully, we still can't "pick up," i.e. arrest, persons in this country on suspicion alone. I think the law enforcement decision most open to criticism was restricting the search to a 20 block perimeter. Picked for no other reason, I suspect, than being a nice round number, it was a perimeter that even a seriously wounded suspect escaped. A healthy suspect would have been long gone. It reminded me of all those seasons of 24, when the bad guys always escaping the perimeter became an invariable plot device/running joke.
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Re: the Boston bombers thread

Postby BillVol » Sun Apr 21, 2013 3:45 pm

Dutra5 wrote:If you're attempting to support your earlier questions all you are doing is pointing out that media representatives can be just as unrealistic with their expectations of law enforcement as you are yourself.


Oh, OK.
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Re: the Boston bombers thread

Postby Dutra5 » Sun Apr 21, 2013 9:02 pm

gh wrote:
Pego wrote:As the reports keep coming in, it appears that no big mystery exists and Tamerlan was just a garden variety fanatical jihadist.


How delightfully ironic that the kid will wake up in Beth Israel hospital.


That occurred to me as well.

BTW...reports are the kid cannot speak, may not ever be able to speak as he was shot in the throat and the NYT says there's some thought of a failed suicide attempt.
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Re: the Boston bombers thread

Postby Dutra5 » Sun Apr 21, 2013 9:07 pm

kevinsdad wrote:
Friar wrote:
expectations of law enforcement

While LE seem to be getting high marks I don't think upon more serious examination the good feelings are going to hold up.
Even without any photographic evidence I would hope that all "watch list" residents of greater Boston would have been picked up as a matter of course. That apparently wasn't something that was attempted in the aftermath.


I hope that by "picked up" you mean questioned, as, thankfully, we still can't "pick up," i.e. arrest, persons in this country on suspicion alone. I think the law enforcement decision most open to criticism was restricting the search to a 20 block perimeter. Picked for no other reason, I suspect, than being a nice round number, it was a perimeter that even a seriously wounded suspect escaped. A healthy suspect would have been long gone. It reminded me of all those seasons of 24, when the bad guys always escaping the perimeter became an invariable plot device/running joke.


I'm not sure the older brother was on any "watch list" in the first place. The perimeter I thought was set up based on the fact that blood was found moving away from the shootout scene giving the thought that he was within a pretty small area.

Most police work involves putting tips and evidence together.
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Re: the Boston bombers thread

Postby jazzcyclist » Mon Apr 22, 2013 5:59 am

gh wrote:
Pego wrote:As the reports keep coming in, it appears that no big mystery exists and Tamerlan was just a garden variety fanatical jihadist.


How delightfully ironic that the kid will wake up in Beth Israel hospital.

The way I understand these things, it's probably no more ironic than a Hamas operative waking up in a Moscow hospital. After Hamas won the 2006 elections, Russia was one of the first governments to recognize them and they followed that up by inviting their leaders to Moscow for an official state visit. Additionally, Russia has been a steadfast and reliable supporter the Palestinian cause at the U.N. Security Council in recent years. Consequently, both Hamas and Hezbollah rebuffed efforts by the Chechen rebels who tried to recruit them to their cause against Moscow, and both groups condemned the Beslan school massacre. So my guess is that the Chechens are as unsympathetic to the Arab cause as Arabs are to their cause.
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Re: the Boston bombers thread

Postby Pego » Mon Apr 22, 2013 6:36 am

jazzcyclist wrote:So my guess is that the Chechens are as unsympathetic to the Arab cause as Arabs are to their cause.


This may be so, but Tamerlan appears to have been espousing Muslim jihad causes rather than being a Chechen separatist.
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Re: the Boston bombers thread

Postby lonewolf » Mon Apr 22, 2013 7:01 am

Pego wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote:So my guess is that the Chechens are as unsympathetic to the Arab cause as Arabs are to their cause.


This may be so, but Tamerlan appears to have been espousing Muslim jihad causes rather than being a Chechen separatist.

It seems so.
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Re: the Boston bombers thread

Postby jazzcyclist » Mon Apr 22, 2013 9:29 am

Pego wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote:So my guess is that the Chechens are as unsympathetic to the Arab cause as Arabs are to their cause.


This may be so, but Tamerlan appears to have been espousing Muslim jihad causes rather than being a Chechen separatist.

But I don't think Muslim jihadists really care that much about the Palestinian issue, rather they occasionally use it was a rallying cry because they know that it resonates accross the Arab/Muslim world even among secular, westernized Muslims who despise the jihadists. There are recordings of Osama bin Laden talking about the Palestinians when he didn't think anyone was listening and he actually despised them, mainly because they were secularist that were too tolerant of and too assimilated with Christians, and they were too westernized on social issues such as women's rights. Keep in mind that Yasir Arafat's wife is Christian and both Hamas and Hezbollah have Christian members.
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Re: the Boston bombers thread

Postby Pego » Mon Apr 22, 2013 9:34 am

jazzcyclist wrote:
Pego wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote:So my guess is that the Chechens are as unsympathetic to the Arab cause as Arabs are to their cause.


This may be so, but Tamerlan appears to have been espousing Muslim jihad causes rather than being a Chechen separatist.

But I don't think Muslim jihadists really care that much about the Palestinian issue, rather they occasionally use it was a rallying cry because they know that it resonates accross the Arab/Muslim world even among secular, westernized Muslims who despise the jihadists. There are recordings of Osama bin Laden talking about the Palestinians when he didn't think anyone was listening and he actually despised them, mainly because they were secularist that were too tolerant of and too assimilated with Christians, and they were too westernized on social issues such as women's rights. Keep in mind that Yasir Arafat's wife is Christian and both Hamas and Hezbollah have Christian members.


You keep bringing up the Palestinian issue here. Did the Tsarnayevs care for the Palestinian issue? If they did, I would have missed it.
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Re: the Boston bombers thread

Postby jazzcyclist » Mon Apr 22, 2013 10:06 am

Pego wrote:You keep bringing up the Palestinian issue here. Did the Tsarnayevs care for the Palestinian issue? If they did, I would have missed it.

I was only commenting on gh's post about the irony of the surviving Tsarnayev waking up in Beth Israel Hospital. Perhaps I wrongly presumed that he was indirectly alluding to the Israel-Arab conflict.
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Re: the Boston bombers thread

Postby batonless relay » Mon Apr 22, 2013 10:24 am

jazzcyclist wrote:
Pego wrote:You keep bringing up the Palestinian issue here. Did the Tsarnayevs care for the Palestinian issue? If they did, I would have missed it.

I was only commenting on gh's post about the irony of the surviving Tsarnayev waking up in Beth Israel Hospital. Perhaps I wrongly presumed that he was indirectly alluding to the Israel-Arab conflict.

I have to confess: I presumed the same thing of gh's post.
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Re: the Boston bombers thread

Postby lonewolf » Mon Apr 22, 2013 11:23 am

I instantly saw the irony of taking #2 to Beth Israel.
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Re: the Boston bombers thread

Postby Friar » Mon Apr 22, 2013 12:48 pm

Public seems to be catching on a bit and starting to ask some questions. Will police look as competent as they did a few days ago? I don't think so. It's good the FBI took their bows quickly.

This is where the press which has been taking a beating in some quarters has a chance to do some good work. The aftermath shouldn't be about prayer, singing, signs, slogans, et. al. Let's get some real information out there, debunk the fake story-lines with facts, demand some accountability (as well as help for the inj).

A few oddities:
~ The boat guy hasn't been talking. So his neighbors stand in his yard and comment to open mic's?
~ The dead guy's mom in-law supposedly put her N.Kingston house up for sale Sun.
~ The nude guy seems to have disappeared?
~ The Jewish gal "Rose" (R&Latin/Columbia) has had a lot to say to TV cameras.
~ They want to take the kid alive yet riddle a small boat with gunshots? Did he even fire one round from the boat in what's been called a "firefight."
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Re: the Boston bombers thread

Postby lonewolf » Mon Apr 22, 2013 2:39 pm

Friar wrote: ~ They want to take the kid alive yet riddle a small boat with gunshots? Did he even fire one round from the boat in what's been called a "firefight."

Been curious about that myself.. :?
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Re: the Boston bombers thread

Postby Per Andersen » Mon Apr 22, 2013 9:57 pm

Pego wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote:So my guess is that the Chechens are as unsympathetic to the Arab cause as Arabs are to their cause.


This may be so, but Tamerlan appears to have been espousing Muslim jihad causes rather than being a Chechen separatist.

It's all quite fluid. Dagestan is a hot bed for muslim jihadists. There are Chechnyans fighting with the Taliban. I think it's useless to speculate about whether Terrorist #1 and Terrorist#2 felt more connected to the Checnyan cause than to general Jihadism. They were both getting there.
Of course these guys would be anti Jew, That comes with the territory.

I have to say I think the FBI blew it with Terrorist # 1 traveling to Russia, Dagestan and Chechnya for 6 months. After the warnings from the Russians they have talked about possible spelling errors in the guy's Aeroflot tickets. What about his passport?
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Re: the Boston bombers thread

Postby jeremyp » Tue Apr 23, 2013 7:08 am

The issue is that there are fundamentalists who believe that their religion (and thus they) are under attack, and that striking back at the soft underbelly of the "enemy" is legitimate. Almost every religion has had this in their history. Today in Myanmar we have Buddhists killing Muslims, in Nigeria we have Christians killing Muslims, in the Sudan we have Muslims killing Christians, and in Sri Lanka we have Buddhists killing off Hindus. Leaders know how to rile up the downtrodden to commit heinous acts in the name of "religion" or "nationalism" or almost any "ism."
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Re: the Boston bombers thread

Postby jazzcyclist » Tue Apr 23, 2013 7:22 am

Per Andersen wrote:It's all quite fluid. Dagestan is a hot bed for muslim jihadists. There are Chechnyans fighting with the Taliban. I think it's useless to speculate about whether Terrorist #1 and Terrorist#2 felt more connected to the Checnyan cause than to general Jihadism. They were both getting there.
Of course these guys would be anti Jew, That comes with the territory.

The hardcore radical Islamic jihadists are anti-Infidel, not just anti-Jew. They're equal opportunity haters who have as little use for Christians, Hindus and Buddhists as they do for Jews. The older brother got kicked out of his Cambridge Mosque a few months ago after he interrupted the service with a loud outburst objecting to a sermon by the Imam praising Martin Luther King as a role model to be emulated. His objection was to the Imam even mentioning the name of a Christian in a Mosque.

http://news.yahoo.com/report-bombing-su ... 26493.html

Historically, terrorist groups will only collaborate with other terrorist groups when they don't think the collaboration undermine their cause. One example of this is the IRA-PLO partnership of the 70's and 80's. Neither group saw a downside in helping the other and they even flaunted this relationship with signs, buildboards, posters and graffiti all over Belfast and the West Bank. On the other hand, not only have Hamas and Hezbollah kept their distance from the Chechens so as not to offend Russia, a major weapons supplier, but they've been even more vigilant about keeping their distance from Al Qaeda so as not to bring the wrath of the U.S. down on their heads.
Per Andersen wrote:I have to say I think the FBI blew it with Terrorist # 1 traveling to Russia, Dagestan and Chechnya for 6 months. After the warnings from the Russians they have talked about possible spelling errors in the guy's Aeroflot tickets. What about his passport?

I'm guessing that the reason the FBI didn't put too much effort into trying find out what this guy was up to is because he was a Chechen, and the Chechen rebels' beef is with Russia. They would probably be just as lax if the U.K. tipped them off about some IRA sympathizer who might be up to no good. On the other hand, if the Saudis or the Pakistanis tipped them off that one of their citizens needed to be watched, I doubt very seriously that they would have let him slip through the cracks.
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Re: the Boston bombers thread

Postby Dutra5 » Tue Apr 23, 2013 1:04 pm

All of the FBI expert types on Tee Vee have offered up some version of the FBI figured the Russians were only concerned about a Russian threat and that when the US tried to find out specific info as to what they (the Russians who pointed him out) were looking for they didn't get an answer.
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Re: the Boston bombers thread

Postby Friar » Tue Apr 23, 2013 5:28 pm

I think I heard NBC's Pete Williams say the duo were armed with a single semi-auto handgun. He also didn't think that they were trying to flee the area. They were smart enough to be dangerous but as far as a plan goes, just dumb bastards with a zero chance of getting away.

A key question will be did the Marathon have plain clothed cops, employ a legit security service-- or both-- on the lookout around the stands across from the finish on both sides of Boylston?
They may not have stopped a quick-fused bomb but a sharp eye may have detected the bag drop if they were thinking of something like this as a possibility.
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Re: the Boston bombers thread

Postby Dutra5 » Tue Apr 23, 2013 8:00 pm

Friar wrote:I think I heard NBC's Pete Williams say the duo were armed with a single semi-auto handgun. He also didn't think that they were trying to flee the area. They were smart enough to be dangerous but as far as a plan goes, just dumb bastards with a zero chance of getting away.

A key question will be did the Marathon have plain clothed cops, employ a legit security service-- or both-- on the lookout around the stands across from the finish on both sides of Boylston?
They may not have stopped a quick-fused bomb but a sharp eye may have detected the bag drop if they were thinking of something like this as a possibility.


Not sure how long the bags were on the ground. It seems from the photos released and the synopsis as released thus far regarding the 2nd blast, that the bag was only on the ground for a couple of minutes and left alone for a very short period of time down to perhaps 20 secs or less. I've read much less on the first bomb and I'm not sure there is as much known about the action with that bag.
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Re: the Boston bombers thread

Postby Tuariki » Tue Apr 23, 2013 10:17 pm

jeremyp wrote:The issue is that there are fundamentalists who believe that their religion (and thus they) are under attack, and that striking back at the soft underbelly of the "enemy" is legitimate. Almost every religion has had this in their history. Today in Myanmar we have Buddhists killing Muslims, in Nigeria we have Christians killing Muslims, in the Sudan we have Muslims killing Christians, and in Sri Lanka we have Buddhists killing off Hindus. Leaders know how to rile up the downtrodden to commit heinous acts in the name of "religion" or "nationalism" or almost any "ism."

It appears that the common thread of much of the acts in terror in the world is religion and has been for hundreds of years.
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Re: the Boston bombers thread

Postby jazzcyclist » Wed Apr 24, 2013 6:10 am

Not surprisingly, the surviving bomber says that he and he brother were motivated by outrage over U.S. foreign policy in the Muslim world, in particular the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. The scary thing is that they were self-radicalized by stuff the saw on the internet without any apparent help from outside terrorist groups.
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Re: the Boston bombers thread

Postby Marlow » Wed Apr 24, 2013 6:26 am

Friar wrote:A key question will be did the Marathon have plain clothed cops, employ a legit security service-- or both-- on the lookout around the stands across from the finish on both sides of Boylston? They may not have stopped a quick-fused bomb but a sharp eye may have detected the bag drop if they were thinking of something like this as a possibility.

The sad outcome of this is increased security measures everywhere.
The Price of Freedom?
Unless you are willing to deny access to a public place and have airport scanners on every street corner, you will never prevent what happened in Boston.

I fear we are merely at the Dawn of the Age of Individual Terrorism. Every nutjob with a grudge to bear and a knapsack of homemade explosives will have us at their mercy. :(
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Re: the Boston bombers thread

Postby jazzcyclist » Wed Apr 24, 2013 6:47 am

Marlow wrote:
Friar wrote:A key question will be did the Marathon have plain clothed cops, employ a legit security service-- or both-- on the lookout around the stands across from the finish on both sides of Boylston? They may not have stopped a quick-fused bomb but a sharp eye may have detected the bag drop if they were thinking of something like this as a possibility.

The sad outcome of this is increased security measures everywhere.
The Price of Freedom?
Unless you are willing to deny access to a public place and have airport scanners on every street corner, you will never prevent what happened in Boston.

I fear we are merely at the Dawn of the Age of Individual Terrorism. Every nutjob with a grudge to bear and a knapsack of homemade explosives will have us at their mercy. :(

I don't think there's anything we can do to prevent acts of domestic terrorism and mass murder, but we can greatly diminish foreign terrorists. We don't need folks overseas to like us, we just need them not to hate us enough to want travel across an ocean to want to kill us.
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Re: the Boston bombers thread

Postby batonless relay » Wed Apr 24, 2013 7:08 am

jazzcyclist wrote:...The scary thing is that they were self-radicalized by stuff the saw on the internet without any apparent help from outside terrorist groups.

That's not scary, that's expected. How are these guys any different than an American who becomes a Neo-Nazi or white supremacist just based on the way they feel about themselves? It happens all the time. Charles Manson, Eric Rudolph, Lanza, Harris and Klebold were self-radicalized, as are/were Timothy McVeigh, Ted Kazcynski, Randy Weaver, Weather Underground, KKK, Black Panthers or Eric Rudolph, Scott Roeder or any number of murderers/intimidators of doctors who perform abortion. Right now there are people THROUGHOUT the United States who are actively training for the overthrow of the United States and they're American citizens, too; only they're doing weekend "maneuvers" instead of taking trips to Russia.
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Re: the Boston bombers thread

Postby Conor Dary » Wed Apr 24, 2013 7:15 am

Marlow wrote:

I fear we are merely at the Dawn of the Age of Individual Terrorism. Every nutjob with a grudge to bear and a knapsack of homemade explosives will have us at their mercy. :(


And really nothing new. Joseph Conrad wrote about this kind of thing over a hundred years ago in The Secret Agent. Also the Haymarket Riot in Chicago in 1886. The IRA made life interesting in London awhile back. Nutjobs have been around since eternity.
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Re: the Boston bombers thread

Postby Daisy » Wed Apr 24, 2013 7:20 am

batonless relay wrote:Right now there are people THROUGHOUT the United States who are actively training for the overthrow of the United States and they're American citizens, too

And, ironically, they see themselves as patriots.
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Re: the Boston bombers thread

Postby jeremyp » Wed Apr 24, 2013 8:06 am

Shiftless. Male. Young. Unemployed. Out of main stream. Powerless. Poor self esteem. EQUALS: ANGER. Looks for a cause to gain self esteem. Finds cause he can project inadequate self esteem/anger on. BINGO. TROUBLE.
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Re: the Boston bombers thread

Postby Pego » Wed Apr 24, 2013 8:34 am

batonless relay wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote:...The scary thing is that they were self-radicalized by stuff the saw on the internet without any apparent help from outside terrorist groups.

That's not scary, that's expected. How are these guys any different than an American who becomes a Neo-Nazi or white supremacist just based on the way they feel about themselves? It happens all the time. Charles Manson, Eric Rudolph, Lanza, Harris and Klebold were self-radicalized, as are/were Timothy McVeigh, Ted Kazcynski, Randy Weaver, Weather Underground, KKK, Black Panthers or Eric Rudolph, Scott Roeder or any number of murderers/intimidators of doctors who perform abortion. Right now there are people THROUGHOUT the United States who are actively training for the overthrow of the United States and they're American citizens, too; only they're doing weekend "maneuvers" instead of taking trips to Russia.


A superb tracker of all of those (and many others you may have never heard of) hate groups/individuals.

http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/i ... nce-report
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Re: the Boston bombers thread

Postby jeremyp » Wed Apr 24, 2013 8:38 am

Tuariki wrote:
jeremyp wrote:The issue is that there are fundamentalists who believe that their religion (and thus they) are under attack, and that striking back at the soft underbelly of the "enemy" is legitimate. Almost every religion has had this in their history. Today in Myanmar we have Buddhists killing Muslims, in Nigeria we have Christians killing Muslims, in the Sudan we have Muslims killing Christians, and in Sri Lanka we have Buddhists killing off Hindus. Leaders know how to rile up the downtrodden to commit heinous acts in the name of "religion" or "nationalism" or almost any "ism."

It appears that the common thread of much of the acts in terror in the world is religion and has been for hundreds of years.

Maybe but that was not my point. My point is that most religions have had fights amongst each other, and that focusing on Islam misses that point. I think Terrorism has been also a national/political expression for many nihilistic people. Scratch a terrorist and I think you find a depressed, angry male with a grudge, and his expressed grudge has been sanctioned and catalyzed by a group that he relates to. If given time most of them morph into Mr. average citizen.
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Re: the Boston bombers thread

Postby Tuariki » Wed Apr 24, 2013 12:59 pm

jeremyp wrote:
Tuariki wrote:
jeremyp wrote:The issue is that there are fundamentalists who believe that their religion (and thus they) are under attack, and that striking back at the soft underbelly of the "enemy" is legitimate. Almost every religion has had this in their history. Today in Myanmar we have Buddhists killing Muslims, in Nigeria we have Christians killing Muslims, in the Sudan we have Muslims killing Christians, and in Sri Lanka we have Buddhists killing off Hindus. Leaders know how to rile up the downtrodden to commit heinous acts in the name of "religion" or "nationalism" or almost any "ism."

It appears that the common thread of much of the acts in terror in the world is religion and has been for hundreds of years.

Maybe but that was not my point. My point is that most religions have had fights amongst each other, and that focusing on Islam misses that point. I think Terrorism has been also a national/political expression for many nihilistic people. Scratch a terrorist and I think you find a depressed, angry male with a grudge, and his expressed grudge has been sanctioned and catalyzed by a group that he relates to. If given time most of them morph into Mr. average citizen.

Trouble is prior to morphing into Mr Average too many of them go out and kill and maim. And although I didn't refer to Islam it is a reality that these days Islam tends to be a common thread with most of acts of terrorism.
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