Çakır-Alptekin positive? [second scandal erupts]


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Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby mump boy » Sat Mar 23, 2013 4:58 am

norunner wrote:
peach77 wrote:
norunner wrote:there are hundreds of examples of athletes who've made massive leaps at that age who we have absolutely no suspicions about at all.
There are? Can you name a few? And i mean from obscurity to top of the world, since she may be olympic champion. There are 100s of juniors who improve from 4:30 to 4:15 within a year, or from 2.10 to 2.20 in the high jump or 10.4 to 10.1 over 100m. But there aren't many i can think of who come from ZERO to number one in the world.


Caster Semenya ? Pamela Jelimo :wink:
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Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby Pego » Sat Mar 23, 2013 5:02 am

mump boy wrote:Caster Semenya ?


A good one.
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Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby Master Po » Sat Mar 23, 2013 6:19 am

I agree w peach's comments above regarding getting rid of prior marks for proven cheaters. I hate looking at all-time lists, event histories, etc. and seeing the marks of proven cheaters there. I would like to see all marks by such athletes invalidated. I know this won't happen, but I nevertheless wish it were the case. I think of it as a kind of punitive damages penalty, because, imo, such athletes are doing damage to the sport, and to other athletes. (And if a suspended athlete wished to appeal the removal of prior marks -- under the claim that he/she wasn't cheating at that point in her or his career -- perhaps the athlete could come forward with the details of his/her cheating program, with dates, names, protocols, etc., to try to demonstrate when he/she was clean, and when not. That might make for interesting reading in doping appeals inquiries.)

As for Bulut, I hope -- for the sake of keeping this thread open -- that we can restrain our speculations, or at least state them with as much care as possible. I get the sentiment that accompanies such speculations, but I just want to encourage my fellow posters -- again, in the interest of keeping this thread open -- to keep the focus on those matters we can fully discuss. :)
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Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby Blues » Sat Mar 23, 2013 7:05 am

Flumpy wrote:
pakillo wrote:Btw, my question is why Justin Gatlin was allowed to compete after his two doping offenses?


Lawyers.

He was also supposed to have helped out the authorities wasn't he? Although we never found out what help he was :?


Assuming that the IAAF penalties for a second offense at the time of Justin Gatlin's second violation were the same as they are today, then the penalty for a second offense depended on the category of the first offense, along with the category of the second offense. If Gatlin's Adderall prescription that he was taking for the ADHD (that he'd been diagnosed with at age 9, and that he tested positive for as a 19 yr old college student after having the drug prescribed for him by his ADHD physicians since age 14), was considered a reduced sanction offense (which I assume that it was, since the IAAF reinstated him early), then his penalty for the second "standard" offense would be 4-8 yrs. Clicking on the IAAF Competition Rules 2012-2013 (Chapter 3) in the link below, and then scrolling down to page 77, will show the chart with the breakdown of second offense penalties based on the first offense category.

http://www.iaaf.org/about-iaaf/document ... ping#rules

And as far as a reduced sanction violation goes, the definition is as such (full info. regarding reduced sanctions found on page 73 of the same linked download):

Elimination or Reduction of Period of Ineligibility for Specified Substances under Specific Circumstances 4.
"Where an Athlete or other Person can establish how a Specified
Substance entered his body or came into his Possession and that such Specified Substance was not intended to enhance the Athlete’s sport performance or mask the Use of a performance enhancing substance, the period of Ineligibility in Rule 40.2 shall be replaced with the following:
First Violation: At a minimum, a reprimand and no period of Ineligibility from future Competitions and, at a maximum, two (2) years’ Ineligibility. To justify any elimination or reduction, the Athlete or other Person must produce corroborating evidence in addition to his word which establishes to the comfortable satisfaction of the hearing panel the absence of an intent to enhance sport performance or to mask the Use of a performance-enhancing substance. The Athlete or other Person’s degree of fault shall be the criterion considered in assessing any reduction of period of Ineligibility. This Article applies only in those circumstances where the hearing panel is comfortably satisfied by the objective circumstances of the case that the Athlete in taking a Prohibited Substance did not intend to enhance his sport performance."
Last edited by Blues on Sat Mar 23, 2013 8:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby mump boy » Sat Mar 23, 2013 7:56 am

Master Po wrote:I agree w peach's comments above regarding getting rid of prior marks for proven cheaters. I hate looking at all-time lists, event histories, etc. and seeing the marks of proven cheaters there. I would like to see all marks by such athletes invalidated. I know this won't happen, but I nevertheless wish it were the case. I think of it as a kind of punitive damages penalty, because, imo, such athletes are doing damage to the sport, and to other athletes. (And if a suspended athlete wished to appeal the removal of prior marks -- under the claim that he/she wasn't cheating at that point in her or his career -- perhaps the athlete could come forward with the details of his/her cheating program, with dates, names, protocols, etc., to try to demonstrate when he/she was clean, and when not. That might make for interesting reading in doping appeals inquiries.)



Great idea
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Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby mump boy » Sat Mar 23, 2013 7:57 am

Turkey take a tough line on drug cheats

http://www.sportsfeatures.com/presspoin ... -on-doping

:lol: :lol:
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Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby JumboElliott » Sat Mar 23, 2013 10:25 am

pakillo wrote:Btw, my question is why Justin Gatlin was allowed to compete after his two doping offenses?
I think Josephine Oniya will be eligible to compete also.

Someone gets 6 months ban for psychostimulant, others get 2 years for psychostimulant... :?

Sigh. This again?

I guess since I've taken adderall since I was 10 then I'm a doper too?
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Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby Ned Ryerson » Sat Mar 23, 2013 10:46 am

mump boy wrote:And of course we have to take her country into account, it is a fundamental factor, as is her total lack of racing outside of champs (i can't find any races but i may be wrong) There are also other very obvious tell tale signs that i shall gloss over.


Paris, where she and twice-convicted drug user Selsouli both ran 3:56. But that was it for 2012.
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Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby Ned Ryerson » Sat Mar 23, 2013 10:46 am

JumboElliott wrote:Sigh. This again?

I guess since I've taken adderall since I was 10 then I'm a doper too?


Get a TUE.
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Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby mump boy » Sat Mar 23, 2013 11:39 am

Ned Ryerson wrote:
mump boy wrote:And of course we have to take her country into account, it is a fundamental factor, as is her total lack of racing outside of champs (i can't find any races but i may be wrong) There are also other very obvious tell tale signs that i shall gloss over.


Paris, where she and twice-convicted drug user Selsouli both ran 3:56. But that was it for 2012.


We're talking about Bulut not Cakir
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Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby JumboElliott » Sat Mar 23, 2013 11:49 am

Bulut won a 1500 in 4:03.42 on June 9th in Istanbul.

http://www.tilastopaja.org/db/earesults ... D=12823655
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Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby mump boy » Sat Mar 23, 2013 12:32 pm

JumboElliott wrote:Bulut won a 1500 in 4:03.42 on June 9th in Istanbul.

http://www.tilastopaja.org/db/earesults ... D=12823655


Oh that's alright then :lol: :lol:
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Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby gh » Sat Mar 23, 2013 1:00 pm

you can't make shit like this up!!!!! Ayhan suing Alptekin for a share of her winnings? See front page.
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Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby John G » Sat Mar 23, 2013 1:18 pm

lovetorun wrote:IMHO another factor that made the London Women's 1500 a farce, even though it has nothing to do with the PED issue, is that a certain runner who fell with a lap to go could very well have medaled.


I just watched the semis and final again. Uceny was found badly wanting down the back straight in the semi - hard to believe she would have been a factor in the final. What did strike me however, was that Aregawi should have won. She was in a terrible position with 500 to go; clashed with Uceny just after the bell; stumbled; lost ground and ran wide and then put in far too great an effort in the penultimate 200.
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Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby ed gee » Sat Mar 23, 2013 1:27 pm

"...she received a lifetime ban for using illegal substances in 2009.
Both athletes have been role models for young Turkish sports people, particularly girls."

Well written!

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/two-fe ... &nid=42465
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Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby mump boy » Sat Mar 23, 2013 3:22 pm

European Athletics ‏@EuroAthletics 20 Mar
Congratulations to Nevin Yanit of Turkey - the women's European Athlete of the Month! http://bit.ly/11j8jtY pic.twitter.com/GPCoHBxKbL
View photo Reply Retweet Favorite More


https://twitter.com/EuroAthletics/statu ... 76/photo/1

:lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby JumboElliott » Sun Mar 24, 2013 5:53 am

Wow, excellent find mump
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Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby eldanielfire » Sun Mar 24, 2013 6:49 am

mump boy wrote:
European Athletics ‏@EuroAthletics 20 Mar
Congratulations to Nevin Yanit of Turkey - the women's European Athlete of the Month! http://bit.ly/11j8jtY pic.twitter.com/GPCoHBxKbL
View photo Reply Retweet Favorite More


https://twitter.com/EuroAthletics/statu ... 76/photo/1

:lol: :lol: :lol:

That's hilarious. I'm one who tends be critical of people throwing the doping stick at any athlete with out evidence, but I was a bit surprised at that one considering who it was and who else it could have been given to (perri Shakes Drayton; double gold, world lead, championship record) given the fact she also wasn't exactly undeserving of suspicion.
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Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby Daisy » Sun Mar 24, 2013 7:21 am

gh wrote:you can't make shit like this up!!!!! Ayhan suing Alptekin for a share of her winnings? See front page.

This needs to become the gold standard for anyone wanting to define farce.
Former 1,500-meter European champion Süreyya Ayhan Kop, who currently serves a lifetime ban from the sports for doping, files a criminal complainmt against Aslı Çakır Alptekin, who led a Turkish one-two at 2012 London Olympics, to claim part of her winnings as a part of a ‘consultancy’ deal
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Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby Master Po » Sun Mar 24, 2013 9:09 am

ed gee wrote:"...she received a lifetime ban for using illegal substances in 2009.
Both athletes have been role models for young Turkish sports people, particularly girls."

Well written!

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/two-fe ... &nid=42465


Glad someone else noticed this. :)
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Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby pakillo » Sun Mar 24, 2013 9:42 am

eldanielfire wrote:
mump boy wrote:
European Athletics ‏@EuroAthletics 20 Mar
Congratulations to Nevin Yanit of Turkey - the women's European Athlete of the Month! http://bit.ly/11j8jtY pic.twitter.com/GPCoHBxKbL
View photo Reply Retweet Favorite More


https://twitter.com/EuroAthletics/statu ... 76/photo/1

:lol: :lol: :lol:

That's hilarious. I'm one who tends be critical of people throwing the doping stick at any athlete with out evidence, but I was a bit surprised at that one considering who it was and who else it could have been given to (perri Shakes Drayton; double gold, world lead, championship record) given the fact she also wasn't exactly undeserving of suspicion.

Fans can vote for the European Athlete of the Month. Used to be on EAA website but through Facebook since recently.
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Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby mump boy » Sun Mar 24, 2013 12:05 pm

pakillo wrote:
eldanielfire wrote:
mump boy wrote:
European Athletics ‏@EuroAthletics 20 Mar
Congratulations to Nevin Yanit of Turkey - the women's European Athlete of the Month! http://bit.ly/11j8jtY pic.twitter.com/GPCoHBxKbL
View photo Reply Retweet Favorite More


https://twitter.com/EuroAthletics/statu ... 76/photo/1

:lol: :lol: :lol:

That's hilarious. I'm one who tends be critical of people throwing the doping stick at any athlete with out evidence, but I was a bit surprised at that one considering who it was and who else it could have been given to (perri Shakes Drayton; double gold, world lead, championship record) given the fact she also wasn't exactly undeserving of suspicion.

Fans can vote for the European Athlete of the Month. Used to be on EAA website but through Facebook since recently.


It can't all be attributed to fans

At the end of each month, a panel of experts produces a shortlist of the outstanding athletes and performances achieved by European athletes during that month, which is then mailed to the European athletics media and thousands of fans who have signed up to receive news from European Athletics.

The European Athlete of the Month fan voting takes place through our Facebook page, while members of the media can cast their vote on our website.

Fans are also able to vote through the European Athletics mobile applications on iPhone and Android phones.

The public, media and a group of expert statisticians cast their votes for the European Athlete of the Month with each category counting as 33.3 per cent of the vote.


http://www.european-athletics.org/athle ... month.html
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Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby sl » Sun Mar 24, 2013 1:03 pm

gh wrote:you can't make shit like this up!!!!! Ayhan suing Alptekin for a share of her winnings? See front page.


Particularly humorous since Alptekin, obviously completely tone deaf, credited Ayhan as her inspiration in the post-race press conference in London. Both Alptekin and Bulut were whisked out of that press conference VERY quickly before anyone could start asking pointed questions.
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Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby Master Po » Sun Mar 24, 2013 1:47 pm

These substances have all sorts of effects, but still no evidence they make the users smarter...
:)
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Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby Tuariki » Sun Mar 24, 2013 11:03 pm

sl wrote:
gh wrote:you can't make shit like this up!!!!! Ayhan suing Alptekin for a share of her winnings? See front page.


Particularly humorous since Alptekin, obviously completely tone deaf, credited Ayhan as her inspiration in the post-race press conference in London. Both Alptekin and Bulut were whisked out of that press conference VERY quickly before anyone could start asking pointed questions.

Do you think Alptekin might have passed on the knowledge gained from when she was attending the Belarus School of Pharmacology?
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Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby lionelp1 » Mon Mar 25, 2013 12:29 am

JumboElliott wrote:
pakillo wrote:Btw, my question is why Justin Gatlin was allowed to compete after his two doping offenses?
I think Josephine Oniya will be eligible to compete also.

Someone gets 6 months ban for psychostimulant, others get 2 years for psychostimulant... :?

Sigh. This again?

I guess since I've taken adderall since I was 10 then I'm a doper too?

You have to have good lawyers and sympathetic authorities to get away with a ban which should have been a life ban and ends up with a bronze medal :lol:
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Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby JumboElliott » Mon Mar 25, 2013 10:47 am

Gatlin's adderall ban shouldn't have counted in the first place. He should have sued the USADA for discrimination.
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Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby gh » Mon Mar 25, 2013 10:50 am

I'm surprised USADA doesn't turn up a lot more Adderall positives. Every time I see the figures on the percent of American students who have scrips for it I'm shocked.
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Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby JumboElliott » Mon Mar 25, 2013 11:25 am

90% or more of which are completely bullshit. Kids who get to college and realize they need to stay up to study. Justin's case didn't sound like it was BS. I know that if I didn't take it, it would be difficult to sit through one class.
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Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby Flumpy » Mon Mar 25, 2013 11:33 am

JumboElliott wrote:Gatlin's adderall ban shouldn't have counted in the first place. He should have sued the USADA for discrimination.


Oh please. He should have been banned for life.
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Re: Cakir-Alptekin positive?

Postby CookyMonzta » Mon Mar 25, 2013 1:10 pm

JumboElliott wrote:I hope they don't reassign the medals.

They must. It's not the 4th-place finisher's fault that the winner was dirty.

And why am I not surprised? I smelled it coming the minute she and Bulut crossed the finish line 1-2. Does anyone remember Sureyya Ayhan, who was a big threat to enter Chinese territory until she came up dirty?

This is going to kill Istanbul's chances to host the XXXII Olympiad in 2020. I hope South Africa is in the running and fights for it.
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Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby JumboElliott » Mon Mar 25, 2013 3:56 pm

Flumpy wrote:
JumboElliott wrote:Gatlin's adderall ban shouldn't have counted in the first place. He should have sued the USADA for discrimination.


Oh please. He should have been banned for life.

That's discrimination against a person with a disability. I would not be able to make it through college without medication. Forcing someone to be without a legal remedy to their ills is a violation of their civil rights.
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Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby iain » Mon Mar 25, 2013 4:09 pm

JumboElliott wrote:
Flumpy wrote:
JumboElliott wrote:Gatlin's adderall ban shouldn't have counted in the first place. He should have sued the USADA for discrimination.


Oh please. He should have been banned for life.

That's discrimination against a person with a disability. I would not be able to make it through college without medication. Forcing someone to be without a legal remedy to their ills is a violation of their civil rights.


Please tell me you're joking?!?!
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Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby bobguild76 » Mon Mar 25, 2013 4:21 pm

Flumpy wrote:
JumboElliott wrote:Gatlin's adderall ban shouldn't have counted in the first place. He should have sued the USADA for discrimination.


Oh please. He should have been banned for life.


This is illustrative of how different people can look at the same set of facts and come to different conclusions. Most cases seem to be clear cut ... see Ben Johnson or Ostapchuk.

But a few cases just aren't that easy to decipher. Some people will look at Ohuruogu's case history, for example, and see "innocent" or "guilty" written all over it, and then look at Gatlin and come to the exact opposite conclusion. That is why we have rules as the foundation, but people adjudicate the process. We trust the people judging the case to do so with wisdom, and not fall prey to silly excuses or stories.

By the way, I'm glad both Ohuruogu & Gatlin are back in the sport. They are both class acts and I enjoy watching them compete! :-)
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Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby mump boy » Mon Mar 25, 2013 4:43 pm

bobguild76 wrote:
Flumpy wrote:
JumboElliott wrote:Gatlin's adderall ban shouldn't have counted in the first place. He should have sued the USADA for discrimination.


Oh please. He should have been banned for life.


This is illustrative of how different people can look at the same set of facts and come to different conclusions. Most cases seem to be clear cut ... see Ben Johnson or Ostapchuk.

But a few cases just aren't that easy to decipher. Some people will look at Ohuruogu's case history, for example, and see "innocent" or "guilty" written all over it, and then look at Gatlin and come to the exact opposite conclusion. That is why we have rules as the foundation, but people adjudicate the process. We trust the people judging the case to do so with wisdom, and not fall prey to silly excuses or stories.

By the way, I'm glad both Ohuruogu & Gatlin are back in the sport. They are both class acts and I enjoy watching them compete! :-)


The differences are so monumental i don't even know where to start :?
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Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby Flumpy » Mon Mar 25, 2013 4:52 pm

bobguild76 wrote:
But a few cases just aren't that easy to decipher. Some people will look at Ohuruogu's case history, for example, and see "innocent" or "guilty" written all over it, and then look at Gatlin and come to the exact opposite conclusion. That is why we have rules as the foundation, but people adjudicate the process. We trust the people judging the case to do so with wisdom, and not fall prey to silly excuses or stories.


When Justin Gatlin was reinstated after the 2001 positive test it was with the understanding that he was being allowed to compete again under the exceptional circumstances rule at the discretion of the IAAF and that his first ban would count as such in the future.

At the time IAAF council member Professor Arne Ljungqvist stated.........

“My proposal to the Council was to reinstate Gatlin with immediate effect whilst making it clear that, as this was considered as a first offence, if he tested positive again, he would be banned for life in accordance with IAAF Rules. Although I recall that some Council Members may have disagreed with me and felt that he should not be reinstated, my advice was followed by the vast majority and the decision was duly taken to reinstate him.”

So as I said he should have received a lifetime ban for a second offense. Why the IAAF went back on their word I have no idea. :? :x
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Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby Pego » Mon Mar 25, 2013 5:04 pm

iain wrote:
JumboElliott wrote:
Flumpy wrote:
JumboElliott wrote:Gatlin's adderall ban shouldn't have counted in the first place. He should have sued the USADA for discrimination.


Oh please. He should have been banned for life.

That's discrimination against a person with a disability. I would not be able to make it through college without medication. Forcing someone to be without a legal remedy to their ills is a violation of their civil rights.


Please tell me you're joking?!?!


Fact #1 - Adderall is highly effective in improving attention deficit.
Fact #2 - There is zero evidence that Adderall is a PED.

JumboElliott, getting through college needing Adderall earns my salute to you.
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Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby Flumpy » Mon Mar 25, 2013 5:23 pm

Fact #1 - Justin Gatlin has twice been found with illegal PED's in his system
Fact #2 - Who needs a fact #2.
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Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby Daisy » Mon Mar 25, 2013 5:33 pm

Pego wrote:Fact #1 - Adderall is highly effective in improving attention deficit.
Fact #2 - There is zero evidence that Adderall is a PED

We'll it could help performance at the start.
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Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby Pego » Mon Mar 25, 2013 5:44 pm

Daisy wrote:
Pego wrote:Fact #1 - Adderall is highly effective in improving attention deficit.
Fact #2 - There is zero evidence that Adderall is a PED

We'll it could help performance at the start.


For 10 years of the existence of this board, I have been asking for a shred of evidence that stimulants are PEDs. The best I received would be "some people believe," or "may".
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