Çakır-Alptekin positive? [second scandal erupts]


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Re: Cakir-Alptekin positive?

Postby gh » Fri Mar 22, 2013 9:17 am

tandfman wrote:
nevetsllim wrote:http://www.nzweek.com/sport/turkish-olympic-champion-cakir-alptekin-dopes-positive-55927/

Perhaps not the most authoritative source but it sounds like it's been confirmed by WADA.

Nothing on the WADA website, but Xinhua is a reputable news source, and there's no reason to think that the Turkish media would make up something like that.


as Jon Mulkeen pointed out on our Facebook page, WADA has now issued a statement that they have not made any releases to the press regards the subject.
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Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby vencio2 » Fri Mar 22, 2013 10:49 am

This thread has made my day.
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Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby mump boy » Fri Mar 22, 2013 12:06 pm

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Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby kuha » Fri Mar 22, 2013 12:29 pm

aaronk wrote:
mump boy wrote:I'm shocked i tell you SHOCKED :shock: :shock: :roll:


I nominate mump boy's response for the.....

Looking at Tragedy with a Smile Award!!

LOL


That wonderful concept:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schadenfreude
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Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby JumboElliott » Fri Mar 22, 2013 12:41 pm

The women's 1500 was a farce last year.
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Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby mump boy » Fri Mar 22, 2013 1:08 pm

JumboElliott wrote:The women's 1500 was a farce last year.


Has been most of this century
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Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby norunner » Fri Mar 22, 2013 1:57 pm

mump boy wrote:
JumboElliott wrote:The women's 1500 was a farce last year.


Has been most of this century
Considering all the chinese fun of the 90s and the fact that ALL times below 3.55 come from the last century you really have to include at least the last 25 years of last century too.
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Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby aaronk » Fri Mar 22, 2013 2:04 pm

norunner wrote:
mump boy wrote:
JumboElliott wrote:The women's 1500 was a farce last year.


Has been most of this century
Considering all the chinese fun of the 90s and the fact that ALL times below 3.55 come from the last century you really have to include at least the last 25 years of last century too.


Maybe THAT'S why they went out in 75 first lap, and 2:23 at 800!
They didn't want to draw suspicion upon themselves! :P

(Maybe those USATF indoor milers (2:55 first 800) better start packin' their bags!! :wink: )
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Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby mump boy » Fri Mar 22, 2013 2:17 pm

norunner wrote:
mump boy wrote:
JumboElliott wrote:The women's 1500 was a farce last year.


Has been most of this century
Considering all the chinese fun of the 90s and the fact that ALL times below 3.55 come from the last century you really have to include at least the last 25 years of last century too.


Fair point but 2005 was a surely the nadir :(
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Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby nevetsllim » Fri Mar 22, 2013 2:19 pm

aaronk wrote:
norunner wrote:
mump boy wrote:
JumboElliott wrote:The women's 1500 was a farce last year.


Has been most of this century
Considering all the chinese fun of the 90s and the fact that ALL times below 3.55 come from the last century you really have to include at least the last 25 years of last century too.


Maybe THAT'S why they went out in 75 first lap, and 2:23 at 800!
They didn't want to draw suspicion upon themselves! :P


But they closed with a 57sec final lap at the European Champs and Olympic Games. Nothing suspicious there. :evil:

Cakir and Yanit have been caught out under the biological passport system but Bulut, as for now, hasn't. But seeing as she emerged from obscurity over the summer last year (pre-2012 PBs were 4:18 1500m and 10:13.73), how long has hers been tracked for? While Cakir and Yanit were around for a few years and operating at a good level, I can't imagine Bulut was on anyone's radar before 2012 and it seems like WADA/IAAF need a fairly large time-range to detect abnormal trends. I don't know too much about how it works but it seems to be working!
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Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby kuha » Fri Mar 22, 2013 2:30 pm

norunner wrote:
mump boy wrote:
JumboElliott wrote:The women's 1500 was a farce last year.


Has been most of this century
Considering all the chinese fun of the 90s and the fact that ALL times below 3.55 come from the last century you really have to include at least the last 25 years of last century too.


Yes. Lots here that doesn't deserve to be taken very seriously.
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Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby lovetorun » Fri Mar 22, 2013 3:41 pm

IMHO another factor that made the London Women's 1500 a farce, even though it has nothing to do with the PED issue, is that a certain runner who fell with a lap to go could very well have medaled.
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Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby Flumpy » Fri Mar 22, 2013 4:36 pm

That makes no sense at all :?
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Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby andyjgt » Fri Mar 22, 2013 5:41 pm

deleted
Last edited by andyjgt on Sat Mar 23, 2013 3:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby Rineanna » Sat Mar 23, 2013 12:35 am

Whatever about once, I'm stunned at any person who has the nerve to come back from a ban and do it all again - the Blonska factor.

Yanit's case will be interesting. If found guilty, I wonder how far back they'll go when stripping her collection of titles? Wikipedia's opening line on Yanit: "Nevin Yanıt, (born February 16, 1986 in Mersin) is a European champion Turkish female sprinter and notorious drug cheat". 8-)

Derval O'Rourke might be in line for a second Euro indoor bronze...
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Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby peach77 » Sat Mar 23, 2013 12:41 am

There is so much here that frustrates me it's ridiculous- the point made about a "certain runner who fell" has nothing to do with Cakir's positive, but the fact is that it would have been an ENTIRELY different race if she wasn't in it as athletes would have had different game plans to try and beat her- she was the favourite, after all.

The thing I still fail to understand is that the IAAF still have not introduced anything to do with instant retrospective banning. I've harped on about this on here for years but if you fail a test, you lose everything from the previous 12 months, full stop. If you fail two, you lose everything you've ever done and are completely stricken from the record books. We all know (knew) Cakir was juiced when she won that Olympic title and yet, if the testing only shows post-London abnormalities, there's every chance she could keep the title. Who can recall the ludicrous situation when Kapachinskaya got a World Indoor title from Michelle Collins despite failing a test a couple of months later? It's farcical and if they are going to continue the redistribution of medals (which they should), then they HAVE to set hard and fast rules that don't make a mockery of the sport.

Also, I think it's a dangerous assumption that people are making about the silver medallist. Whilst I am the first to agree that she's from a country that's clearly having "issues" with doping at the moment, her progression is not "as" outrageous for someone coming straight out of the junior ranks and whilst I know my own personal feelings on the matter, there has to be a level of "innocent until proven guilty" or, frankly, what is the point of watching this sport?
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Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby peach77 » Sat Mar 23, 2013 12:42 am

Oh and entirely forgot to talk about Yanit- who shouldn't have been in London ANYWAY if the reports of test avoidance are believed.

Still, there's a promising career as a Peter Andre tribute act waiting in the wings for her....GOOD RIDDANCE!
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Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby norunner » Sat Mar 23, 2013 1:59 am

peach77 wrote:Also, I think it's a dangerous assumption that people are making about the silver medallist. Whilst I am the first to agree that she's from a country that's clearly having "issues" with doping at the moment, her progression is not "as" outrageous for someone coming straight out of the junior ranks and whilst I know my own personal feelings on the matter, there has to be a level of "innocent until proven guilty" or, frankly, what is the point of watching this sport?
Improving from 4:18 to 4:01 within one year is not outrageous enough? So when does it get outrageous? 3:59? 3:55?
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Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby pakillo » Sat Mar 23, 2013 2:26 am

norunner wrote:
peach77 wrote:Also, I think it's a dangerous assumption that people are making about the silver medallist. Whilst I am the first to agree that she's from a country that's clearly having "issues" with doping at the moment, her progression is not "as" outrageous for someone coming straight out of the junior ranks and whilst I know my own personal feelings on the matter, there has to be a level of "innocent until proven guilty" or, frankly, what is the point of watching this sport?
Improving from 4:18 to 4:01 within one year is not outrageous enough? So when does it get outrageous? 3:59? 3:55?

No it's not outrageous and especially not at the age of 19 or 20!
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Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby nevetsllim » Sat Mar 23, 2013 2:36 am

norunner wrote:
peach77 wrote:Also, I think it's a dangerous assumption that people are making about the silver medallist. Whilst I am the first to agree that she's from a country that's clearly having "issues" with doping at the moment, her progression is not "as" outrageous for someone coming straight out of the junior ranks and whilst I know my own personal feelings on the matter, there has to be a level of "innocent until proven guilty" or, frankly, what is the point of watching this sport?
Improving from 4:18 to 4:01 within one year is not outrageous enough? So when does it get outrageous? 3:59? 3:55?


And I'm sure she could have gone 2-3sec faster seeing as Cakir ran 3:56.6 in Paris where Bulut was absent.
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Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby norunner » Sat Mar 23, 2013 2:53 am

pakillo wrote:
norunner wrote:
peach77 wrote:Also, I think it's a dangerous assumption that people are making about the silver medallist. Whilst I am the first to agree that she's from a country that's clearly having "issues" with doping at the moment, her progression is not "as" outrageous for someone coming straight out of the junior ranks and whilst I know my own personal feelings on the matter, there has to be a level of "innocent until proven guilty" or, frankly, what is the point of watching this sport?
Improving from 4:18 to 4:01 within one year is not outrageous enough? So when does it get outrageous? 3:59? 3:55?

No it's not outrageous and especially not at the age of 19 or 20!
So once again the question, where does outrageous begin? If i remember correctly, from 85 to 86 Randy Barnes improved from below 19 meters to 21.88. Within one year, he was 19 then too. I guess you would have considered that perfectly normal too.
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Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby pakillo » Sat Mar 23, 2013 3:00 am

Btw, my question is why Justin Gatlin was allowed to compete after his two doping offenses?
I think Josephine Oniya will be eligible to compete also.

Someone gets 6 months ban for psychostimulant, others get 2 years for psychostimulant... :?
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Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby pakillo » Sat Mar 23, 2013 3:16 am

norunner wrote:
pakillo wrote:
norunner wrote:
peach77 wrote:Also, I think it's a dangerous assumption that people are making about the silver medallist. Whilst I am the first to agree that she's from a country that's clearly having "issues" with doping at the moment, her progression is not "as" outrageous for someone coming straight out of the junior ranks and whilst I know my own personal feelings on the matter, there has to be a level of "innocent until proven guilty" or, frankly, what is the point of watching this sport?
Improving from 4:18 to 4:01 within one year is not outrageous enough? So when does it get outrageous? 3:59? 3:55?

No it's not outrageous and especially not at the age of 19 or 20!
So once again the question, where does outrageous begin? If i remember correctly, from 85 to 86 Randy Barnes improved from below 19 meters to 21.88. Within one year, he was 19 then too. I guess you would have considered that perfectly normal too.

In his case definitely not perfectly normal.
Just that "sudden improvement" argument is kind of overrated.
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Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby Flumpy » Sat Mar 23, 2013 3:42 am

Rineanna wrote:Yanit's case will be interesting. If found guilty, I wonder how far back they'll go when stripping her collection of titles? Wikipedia's opening line on Yanit: "Nevin Yanıt, (born February 16, 1986 in Mersin) is a European champion Turkish female sprinter and notorious drug cheat".


Who would have done such a thing? :wink: :P :lol:
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Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby Flumpy » Sat Mar 23, 2013 3:50 am

pakillo wrote: In his case definitely not perfectly normal.
Just that "sudden improvement" argument is kind of overrated.


But nobody is condemning someone for a 'sudden improvement'. That happens all the time. But a 17 second improvement is utterly ridiculous. When viewed in conjunction with all the other factors it's entirely reasonable to be suspicious of her.

I agree entirely with peachy above. Retrospective annulments of results are long overdue. It's ridiculous that someone can keep a title if they fail a test a few months after and even more ridiculous when someone serving a ban is upgraded to a medal from a previous champs.

12 months annulments and no upgrades ever for anyone who has a ban of 2 years or more + career annulments for those banned for life.

I mean Randy Barnes still holds the Shot Putt WR??? :roll:
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Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby Flumpy » Sat Mar 23, 2013 3:51 am

pakillo wrote:Btw, my question is why Justin Gatlin was allowed to compete after his two doping offenses?


Lawyers.

He was also supposed to have helped out the authorities wasn't he? Although we never found out what help he was :?
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Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby peach77 » Sat Mar 23, 2013 3:52 am

norunner wrote:Improving from 4:18 to 4:01 within one year is not outrageous enough? So when does it get outrageous? 3:59? 3:55?


You miss the point entirely. Had that happened at the age of 26, of course it's a ridiculous improvement. I mentioned in my initial post that she is just coming out of the junior ranks- 2012 was her first year as a senior. There are myriad reasons why a junior runner improves quickly entering the senior ranks- different levels of competition, their bodies are still developing etc etc...there are hundreds of examples of athletes who've made massive leaps at that age who we have absolutely no suspicions about at all.

As I also said in my post, I have my own opinion on whether there should be "suspicion" around Bulut, and don't take this as an impassioned defence of her AT ALL, but I don't think it's fair at this stage that she is openly slandered as dirty, which is happening in this thread (and no one seems to be questioning it), when there is nothing really other than her nationality to suggest that she is...
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Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby nevetsllim » Sat Mar 23, 2013 4:06 am

peach77 wrote:
norunner wrote:Improving from 4:18 to 4:01 within one year is not outrageous enough? So when does it get outrageous? 3:59? 3:55?


As I also said in my post, I have my own opinion on whether there should be "suspicion" around Bulut, and don't take this as an impassioned defence of her AT ALL, but I don't think it's fair at this stage that she is openly slandered as dirty, which is happening in this thread (and no one seems to be questioning it), when there is nothing really other than her nationality to suggest that she is...


I agree to an extent but she was 68th out of 74 runners over 4km in the junior race at the European XC Championships in December 2010 and 2:05 behind the winner Charlotte Purdue. I know it's not unusual for junior athletes to make great strides but it just seems too much to believe this is legit.
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Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby norunner » Sat Mar 23, 2013 4:30 am

peach77 wrote:
norunner wrote:there are hundreds of examples of athletes who've made massive leaps at that age who we have absolutely no suspicions about at all.
There are? Can you name a few? And i mean from obscurity to top of the world, since she may be olympic champion. There are 100s of juniors who improve from 4:30 to 4:15 within a year, or from 2.10 to 2.20 in the high jump or 10.4 to 10.1 over 100m. But there aren't many i can think of who come from ZERO to number one in the world.
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Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby mump boy » Sat Mar 23, 2013 4:57 am

And of course we have to take her country into account, it is a fundamental factor, as is her total lack of racing outside of champs (i can't find any races but i may be wrong) There are also other very obvious tell tale signs that i shall gloss over.

She didn't just take up the sport and appear out of nowhere last year, she has been competing for her country since at least '09, she was just rubbish before last year.

I would never suggest that people have done anything wrong JUST because of their country of origin but when you start to add everything else up it becomes pretty obvious
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Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby mump boy » Sat Mar 23, 2013 4:58 am

norunner wrote:
peach77 wrote:
norunner wrote:there are hundreds of examples of athletes who've made massive leaps at that age who we have absolutely no suspicions about at all.
There are? Can you name a few? And i mean from obscurity to top of the world, since she may be olympic champion. There are 100s of juniors who improve from 4:30 to 4:15 within a year, or from 2.10 to 2.20 in the high jump or 10.4 to 10.1 over 100m. But there aren't many i can think of who come from ZERO to number one in the world.


Caster Semenya ? Pamela Jelimo :wink:
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Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby Pego » Sat Mar 23, 2013 5:02 am

mump boy wrote:Caster Semenya ?


A good one.
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Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby Master Po » Sat Mar 23, 2013 6:19 am

I agree w peach's comments above regarding getting rid of prior marks for proven cheaters. I hate looking at all-time lists, event histories, etc. and seeing the marks of proven cheaters there. I would like to see all marks by such athletes invalidated. I know this won't happen, but I nevertheless wish it were the case. I think of it as a kind of punitive damages penalty, because, imo, such athletes are doing damage to the sport, and to other athletes. (And if a suspended athlete wished to appeal the removal of prior marks -- under the claim that he/she wasn't cheating at that point in her or his career -- perhaps the athlete could come forward with the details of his/her cheating program, with dates, names, protocols, etc., to try to demonstrate when he/she was clean, and when not. That might make for interesting reading in doping appeals inquiries.)

As for Bulut, I hope -- for the sake of keeping this thread open -- that we can restrain our speculations, or at least state them with as much care as possible. I get the sentiment that accompanies such speculations, but I just want to encourage my fellow posters -- again, in the interest of keeping this thread open -- to keep the focus on those matters we can fully discuss. :)
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Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby Blues » Sat Mar 23, 2013 7:05 am

Flumpy wrote:
pakillo wrote:Btw, my question is why Justin Gatlin was allowed to compete after his two doping offenses?


Lawyers.

He was also supposed to have helped out the authorities wasn't he? Although we never found out what help he was :?


Assuming that the IAAF penalties for a second offense at the time of Justin Gatlin's second violation were the same as they are today, then the penalty for a second offense depended on the category of the first offense, along with the category of the second offense. If Gatlin's Adderall prescription that he was taking for the ADHD (that he'd been diagnosed with at age 9, and that he tested positive for as a 19 yr old college student after having the drug prescribed for him by his ADHD physicians since age 14), was considered a reduced sanction offense (which I assume that it was, since the IAAF reinstated him early), then his penalty for the second "standard" offense would be 4-8 yrs. Clicking on the IAAF Competition Rules 2012-2013 (Chapter 3) in the link below, and then scrolling down to page 77, will show the chart with the breakdown of second offense penalties based on the first offense category.

http://www.iaaf.org/about-iaaf/document ... ping#rules

And as far as a reduced sanction violation goes, the definition is as such (full info. regarding reduced sanctions found on page 73 of the same linked download):

Elimination or Reduction of Period of Ineligibility for Specified Substances under Specific Circumstances 4.
"Where an Athlete or other Person can establish how a Specified
Substance entered his body or came into his Possession and that such Specified Substance was not intended to enhance the Athlete’s sport performance or mask the Use of a performance enhancing substance, the period of Ineligibility in Rule 40.2 shall be replaced with the following:
First Violation: At a minimum, a reprimand and no period of Ineligibility from future Competitions and, at a maximum, two (2) years’ Ineligibility. To justify any elimination or reduction, the Athlete or other Person must produce corroborating evidence in addition to his word which establishes to the comfortable satisfaction of the hearing panel the absence of an intent to enhance sport performance or to mask the Use of a performance-enhancing substance. The Athlete or other Person’s degree of fault shall be the criterion considered in assessing any reduction of period of Ineligibility. This Article applies only in those circumstances where the hearing panel is comfortably satisfied by the objective circumstances of the case that the Athlete in taking a Prohibited Substance did not intend to enhance his sport performance."
Last edited by Blues on Sat Mar 23, 2013 8:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby mump boy » Sat Mar 23, 2013 7:56 am

Master Po wrote:I agree w peach's comments above regarding getting rid of prior marks for proven cheaters. I hate looking at all-time lists, event histories, etc. and seeing the marks of proven cheaters there. I would like to see all marks by such athletes invalidated. I know this won't happen, but I nevertheless wish it were the case. I think of it as a kind of punitive damages penalty, because, imo, such athletes are doing damage to the sport, and to other athletes. (And if a suspended athlete wished to appeal the removal of prior marks -- under the claim that he/she wasn't cheating at that point in her or his career -- perhaps the athlete could come forward with the details of his/her cheating program, with dates, names, protocols, etc., to try to demonstrate when he/she was clean, and when not. That might make for interesting reading in doping appeals inquiries.)



Great idea
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Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby mump boy » Sat Mar 23, 2013 7:57 am

Turkey take a tough line on drug cheats

http://www.sportsfeatures.com/presspoin ... -on-doping

:lol: :lol:
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Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby JumboElliott » Sat Mar 23, 2013 10:25 am

pakillo wrote:Btw, my question is why Justin Gatlin was allowed to compete after his two doping offenses?
I think Josephine Oniya will be eligible to compete also.

Someone gets 6 months ban for psychostimulant, others get 2 years for psychostimulant... :?

Sigh. This again?

I guess since I've taken adderall since I was 10 then I'm a doper too?
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Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby Ned Ryerson » Sat Mar 23, 2013 10:46 am

mump boy wrote:And of course we have to take her country into account, it is a fundamental factor, as is her total lack of racing outside of champs (i can't find any races but i may be wrong) There are also other very obvious tell tale signs that i shall gloss over.


Paris, where she and twice-convicted drug user Selsouli both ran 3:56. But that was it for 2012.
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Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby Ned Ryerson » Sat Mar 23, 2013 10:46 am

JumboElliott wrote:Sigh. This again?

I guess since I've taken adderall since I was 10 then I'm a doper too?


Get a TUE.
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Re: Çakır-Alptekin positive?

Postby mump boy » Sat Mar 23, 2013 11:39 am

Ned Ryerson wrote:
mump boy wrote:And of course we have to take her country into account, it is a fundamental factor, as is her total lack of racing outside of champs (i can't find any races but i may be wrong) There are also other very obvious tell tale signs that i shall gloss over.


Paris, where she and twice-convicted drug user Selsouli both ran 3:56. But that was it for 2012.


We're talking about Bulut not Cakir
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