Bird better than Jordan?


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Re: Bird better than Jordan?

Postby bambam » Sat Mar 16, 2013 11:22 am

Pego wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote:As for other GOATs, isn't the consensus for Gretsky just as strong for him as it is for Merckx and Bradman?


That probably is a majority opinion, but a sizeable minority would suggest Mario or Bobby Orr, a shrinking small minority of old-timers might still stick with "The Rocket."


Well, I'm part of that sizable minority. Having grown up around Boston when Orr was playing, no one will ever convince me, or anybody who saw him play, or played with him, that there has ever been a greater hockey player. Gretzky was great, but Orr changed the game of hockey. He was a defenseman, and led the league in scoring twice. That has been done only 2 times in NHL history, both by Orr. Its approximately the equivalent of a guard leading the NBA in rebounding. He also won the Norris Trophy every year he was healthy - something like 9 years in a row (best defenseman trophy). His nickname among his fellow Bruins was God.
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Re: Bird better than Jordan?

Postby bijanc » Mon Mar 18, 2013 9:56 am

Orr leading NHL in goals, and points, is like a fullback being the leading scorer in the world's best pro soccer league- twice. Orr was a skilled skater, speedy forward and backward, and could stop on a dime, he was no punk when it came to contact, he shot hard and fast, and he was the best defenseman in the league for seven years.

Back to hoops, I have Abdul-Jabbar over Jordan because he dominated at a younger age (20). Jordan won one NCAA title, Alcindor not only won three, his tournament teams had an average margin of victory of 21 points over three years. UCLA lost two college games while he was there, and his second Bucks team went 66-16, sweeping the Bullets (who had three future HOF'ers and Jack Marin, Kevin Loughery) in the Finals when Finals sweeps were rare.

Kareem played in 19 All-Star Games, was NBA Finals MVP at age 38, and made All-Defensive 11 teams. He shot 72% FT, so you couldn't foul him in clutch or end game situations as you could Chamberlain. And he could pass, dribble the length of the floor, shoot a bankshot, and he shot a hook from a distance none of his contemporaries or successors imitated. Jordan's moves were emulated by Vince Carter, Kobe, Wade, et al.

Jabbar was so gifted, that when Bill Walton was a rookie, who had also played in three straight NCAA title games, and a quick, intelligent young player who could defend and rebound, the first time they faced one another as pro's, Jabbar outscored Walton 52-8.

Cousy didn't destroy Oscar like that the first time they met, nor Russell-Wilt.
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Re: Bird better than Jordan?

Postby Conor Dary » Mon Mar 18, 2013 10:23 am

bijanc wrote: Jordan won one NCAA title, Alcindor not only won three,


Well yea, since Jordan turned pro after his second year.....kind of hard to win NCAA titles when you are not college.
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Re: Bird better than Jordan?

Postby bijanc » Mon Mar 18, 2013 11:32 am

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1870 ... ba-history

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index ... 342AASHWsZ

Kareem played three varsity seasons at UCLA, and was college player of the year and final four MYP in all of them. Jordan also played three college seasons. Ralph was three-time college player of the year in that era. Worthy was the better player on their college teams. He did not win a championship until Pippen came along in the early 1990's, although he was a rookie in 1984 (when he was 21- same age Alcindor was as a rookie).

Jordan did not produce in NCAA semis vs. Indiana, when guarded by Dan Dakich, and also had an unimpressive ACC semi-final the year N.C. State won it all. Kareem was a far better h.s. (Jordan was cut from h.s. team one season), college, and pro player combined, than Jordan, or even Wilt.
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Re: Bird better than Jordan?

Postby Conor Dary » Mon Mar 18, 2013 11:38 am

However long Jordan or KAJ played, to even bring their college careers into the discussion, let alone their high school :roll: ...is irrelevant. Jordan was picked after Sam Bowie.

Anyways, this has gone on long enough. Jordan was the best and most fun to watch and a real treat. It was 18 years ago today, Jordan announced, 'I'm Back!' And it felt like Christmas Day.

What others think is irrelevant.
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Re: Bird better than Jordan?

Postby jazzcyclist » Mon Mar 18, 2013 12:18 pm

Conor Dary wrote:
bijanc wrote: Jordan won one NCAA title, Alcindor not only won three,


Well yea, since Jordan turned pro after his second year.....kind of hard to win NCAA titles when you are not college.

Jordan turned pro after his junior year and freshman couldn't play varsity when Kareem was in college, so they both played three years. Kareem was dominant at a younger age than Jordan and he was still dominant at an age three years older than Jordan was when he retired the second time. On top of that, Kareem has 10 times more character than Jordan has.
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Re: Bird better than Jordan?

Postby bijanc » Mon Mar 18, 2013 12:40 pm

H.S. and college are relevant when discussing the cumulative careers of the best basketball players ever, as opposed to the most accomplished pro. Maravich was the most fun to watch (then maybe Monroe, then ABA Doc). Wilkins and Carter and Lebron could dunk w/ MJ.
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Re: Bird better than Jordan?

Postby Conor Dary » Mon Mar 18, 2013 12:41 pm

jazzcyclist wrote: On top of that, Kareem has 10 times more character than Jordan has.


I have no idea what that means, but I suppose it sounds clever, and if it means anything, so what?

MJ was the man!
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Re: Bird better than Jordan?

Postby bambam » Mon Mar 18, 2013 1:26 pm

bijanc wrote:H.S. and college are relevant when discussing the cumulative careers of the best basketball players ever, as opposed to the most accomplished pro. Maravich was the most fun to watch (then maybe Monroe, then ABA Doc). Wilkins and Carter and Lebron could dunk w/ MJ.


If you mention most fun college players to watch and don't include David Thompson, then you never saw him play. Best college player I ever saw, with possible exception of Lew Alcindor / Kareem Abdul Jabbar.
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Re: Bird better than Jordan?

Postby bijanc » Mon Mar 18, 2013 2:41 pm

I saw Thompson. He is the best college player I ever saw, a little above Austin Carr. My first time watching Alcindor was 1969, when he was a professional. Idolized Thompson, who was also forbidden to dunk. Rumor has it he TJ'ed well over 40' first time out,
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Re: Bird better than Jordan?

Postby Pego » Mon Mar 18, 2013 2:58 pm

David Thompson was spectacular. I never cared much for Carr. He would lower his shoulder a lot and often got away with it. They called charge a lot less in those days than now.
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Re: Bird better than Jordan?

Postby bijanc » Mon Mar 18, 2013 3:40 pm

Tastes differ, but I've never seen a more efficient scorer that size than Austin Carr. He was automatic from 20-22', despite defenses designed to curtail him. Still hold NCAA scoring avg. record of 52 points a game over seven career games. Maybe he used his frame to his advantage on drives, but from the perimeter, no collegian who played such as strong schedule, has scored like that since (34 ppg. 38 ppg.).
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