A place for the discussion of all things not closely related to the sport and its competitive side. (Locked down several times a year during the major championships)
az2004 wrote:it only takes a brief moment to do something stupid
A good reason not to have loaded guns all over the house.
Not trying to provoke the gun debate again, which I agree is the third rail, but Daisy's comment and this case reminds me of what I read in yesterday's NYTimes.
“The literature suggests that having a gun in your home to protect your family is like bringing a time bomb into your house,” said Dr. Mark Rosenberg, an epidemiologist who helped establish the C.D.C.’s National Center for Injury Prevention and Control. “Instead of protecting you, it’s more likely to blow up.”
az2004 wrote:it only takes a brief moment to do something stupid
A good reason not to have loaded guns all over the house.
Not trying to provoke the gun debate again, which I agree is the third rail, but Daisy's comment and this case reminds me of what I read in yesterday's NYTimes.
“The literature suggests that having a gun in your home to protect your family is like bringing a time bomb into your house,” said Dr. Mark Rosenberg, an epidemiologist who helped establish the C.D.C.’s National Center for Injury Prevention and Control. “Instead of protecting you, it’s more likely to blow up.”
Especially if you are looking for a suicide tool. In Europe, a more sophisticated place, they just use drugs . If only the US would learn from our civilized cousins the carpet and wall cleanup at the sucide site would be much more acceptable :
mump boy wrote:While i agree with all of the above, i think there is the hint of the Jimmy Saville/Lance Armstrong to this story.
Saville and Armstrong? Can we stop with these silly and stupid comparisons. The first is a serial child molester and Armstrong took some PEDs in a sport, that few really care about, rife with the stuff.
Some of you guys really don't like Armstrong, which is fine. But you are off your rockers putting those two names in the same sentence.
mump boy wrote:While i agree with all of the above, i think there is the hint of the Jimmy Saville/Lance Armstrong to this story.
Saville and Armstrong? Can we stop with these silly and stupid comparisons. The first is a serial child molester and Armstrong took some PEDs in a sport, that few really care about, rife with the stuff.
Some of you guys really don't like Armstrong, which is fine. But you are off your rockers putting those two names in the same sentence.
frighteningly, dangerously off their rockers.
Amen. Collapsing all of these cases into some generic sense of "error" is beyond ridiculous.
Conor Dary wrote:Saville and Armstrong? Can we stop with these silly and stupid comparisons. The first is a serial child molester and Armstrong took some PEDs in a sport, that few really care about, rife with the stuff.
Some of you guys really don't like Armstrong, which is fine. But you are off your rockers putting those two names in the same sentence.
No one was comparing their behaviour but the media's treatment of them. Mump made a totally valid point.
Just because you stan for Lance Armstrong it doesn't mean you have to take umbrage whenever hos name is mentioned, whatever the context.
Last edited by Flumpy on Fri Feb 15, 2013 12:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Conor Dary wrote:Saville and Armstrong? Can we stop with these silly and stupid comparisons. The first is a serial child molester and Armstrong took some PEDs in a sport, that few really care about, rife with the stuff.
Some of you guys really don't like Armstrong, which is fine. But you are off your rockers putting those two names in the same sentence.
No on was comparing their behaviour but the media's treatment of them, which is a totally valid point.
No it's not. You might have an argument in 6 months, but the Pistorius thing is far too immediate to make any meaningful judgments about "media treatment." And if you re-read the more inane comments above, you WILL see at least some comparison of behaviour.
Conor Dary wrote:Saville and Armstrong? Can we stop with these silly and stupid comparisons. The first is a serial child molester and Armstrong took some PEDs in a sport, that few really care about, rife with the stuff.
Some of you guys really don't like Armstrong, which is fine. But you are off your rockers putting those two names in the same sentence.
No one was comparing their behaviour but the media's treatment of them. Mump made a totally valid point.
Just because you stan for Lance Armstrong it doesn't mean you have to take umbrage whenever hos name is mentioned, whatever the context.
I don't stand for LA or anyone. I am really bored by all of the drugs stories, that is why I have avoided the LA thread like the plague. But here it pops again! I just think the treatment of LA is so over the top, especially from people who really don't care at all about cycling and only like seeing a celebrity get knocked down. And a statement that implies any similarity between a disgusting serial pedophile like your Jimmy Saville and Armstrong is idiotic, but par for the course...especially with the British media. The home of hacker central.
Last edited by Conor Dary on Fri Feb 15, 2013 1:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I obviously wasn't comparing their 'crimes' i was comparing the ability of good PR, money and influence to cover up people's bad behaviour.
Bad behaviour? Taking EPO to do a 2500 mile insane bike race, in which probably every other cyclist is also doing, and comparing that to scumbag serial child rapist Jimmy Savile? Pretty dumb. The mind reels...
Armstrong's 'victims' were the other cyclists, who were also probably equally guilty and the Tour de France promoters who I have very little sympathy with since they let PEDs run rampant.
And then we have Savile's victims: hundreds of children at the last report......
But of course it is all just bad behavior.
PS. What is with the British obsession with Armstrong and this comparison with pure evil. During Armstrong's years the UK really sucked at the sport. However, they did have one good rider.....what was his name?....Oh, yes, David Millar.
Millar was eating in a restaurant in Bidart, near Biarritz, on 23 June 2004 when he was approached by three plainclothes policemen of the Paris drug squad at 8.25pm. They took Millar's watch, shoelaces, jewellery, keys and phone. After two and a half hours they found empty phials of Eprex, a brand of the blood-boosting drug EPO, and two used syringes. Millar said he had been given them as a gift at the Tour of Spain, that he had taken them to Manchester and used them. After that he had kept them as a souvenir. The detectives took Millar to the prison in Biarritz and put him alone in a cell.
...his phone calls had been tapped for four months and Millar eventually confessed to police on 24 June 2004. He admitted using EPO in 2001 and 2003.
Last edited by Conor Dary on Fri Feb 15, 2013 1:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
mump boy wrote:While i agree with all of the above, i think there is the hint of the Jimmy Saville/Lance Armstrong to this story. It is only now that we get a chance to see behind the massive PR machine that some of the truth may actually come out and people feel safe enough to comment on previous behaviours. People have tried to tell these stories before but have been silenced and threatened with legal action
Where did the initial story about him thinking she was a burglar come from ?? it certainly didn't come from the police or any authorities. It sounds like some very smart spin to me.
Why the hell are you comparing murder and child rape to a cyclist doping?
It's possible that he is suffering from PTSD, it's extremely difficult for any of US to appreciate what it's like to live in constant fear of dangerous criminals in your own home. The US media portrays him as a paranoid gun nut, but to live in that kind of fear is completely reasonable for the neighborhood/country that he lives in, especially given that he is a celebrity, so the criminals KNOW that he has money.
If we had a US veteran suffering from PTSD, who woke up in the middle of the night and heard noises in their bathroom, shot through the door and killed their wife, we wouldn't charge them with premeditated murder. They'd probably get charged with manslaughter and try to plead temporary insanity or something.
His behavior so far has been consistent with someone who made a horrible mistake. As far as we can tell, he has been cooperating with the cops. He appears to be absolutely devastated by the whole thing.
This sort of tragedy is fairly common in South Africa. The police are pretty much worthless against the real criminals there. Pistorius deserves a fair trial and to be punished for whatever the truth is. I hope that they are able to figure it out.
And don't think I have a soft spot for criminals. One of my friends was murdered a few years ago. Clearly premeditated. It was really clear early on who did it. But evidence takes time to process and cases take time to build. The guy who did it got to run free for a year before they even arrested him. Then after delaying the trial for about a year, they let him plead down to Murder 2 at the last minute. He'll probably be out on bail after 10 years in jail. So I absolutely feel for this girls' friends and family who are just devastated right now.
If the evidence clearly shows that this was premeditated, then he should be punished appropriately. I'm just having a hard time imagining why someone who _planned_ to kill someone would do it through a bathroom door, where you can't see your target and you leave a lot of evidence behind. If you planned to kill someone, you usually put some kind of planning into covering it up, and minimizing how much evidence is created. My friend who was murdered was driven to the top of a mountain, shot in the back of his head, and then the body was hidden in the woods, the gun thrown in a (very large) lake. We were only lucky that some hikers were going off trail and happened to find him after a few days, it could have taken a lot longer than it did.
It's been widely reported ... by the media, who may have made it up or gotten it from an unreliable source just like the intruder mistake story. There is no indication that the information about bulletholes through the bathroom door was released by the police or stated in today's court hearing.
From the same article you linked to:
The Afrikaans-language Beeld newspaper said Steenkamp was shot four times, in the head, chest, pelvis and hand. "The security guards found Pistorius by Steenkamp's body in the bathroom," the paper said, citing a neighbour. "The door had bullet holes right through it." Police have not disclosed details and there has been no verification of the claim.
I did find it odd that they're charging him with premeditated murder and not a less legally severe version of murder or manslaughter. The police probably know a lot that we don't. They definitely know whether he called 911 (or whatever the equivalent number is in SA); if he didn't call the police/ambulance, that seriously adds to the appearance of guilt.
Last edited by 18.99s on Fri Feb 15, 2013 2:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
A man shoots his girlfriend dead in his own home and we are wondering if he is guilty ? ... We are doomed! If he had any conscience, and even assuming he shot by mistake, he would be begging to be immediately executed as an example to every person in the world to exercise caution with firearms in your home... But he is not because this has nothing to do with mistaken identity or firearm safety. This is just another case, like most murdered women cases, due a to violent narcissist spouse/boyfriend. He is a murderer.
A reasonable jurist would look at the percentage of deaths of women across all countries and societies and find an strong likelihood that women that are murdered are murdered by their male partner.
She picked the wrong boyfriend....
Last edited by user4 on Fri Feb 15, 2013 2:54 pm, edited 2 times in total.
user4 wrote:A man shoots his girlfriend dead in his own home and we are wondering if he is guilty ? ... We are doomed! If he had any conscience, and even assuming he shot by mistake, he would be begging to be immediately executed as an example to every person in the world to exercise caution with firearms in your home... But he is not because this has nothing to do with mistaken identity or firearm safety. This is just another case, like most murdered women cases, due a to violent narcissist spouse/boyfriend. He is a murderer.
A reasonable jurist would look at the percentage of deaths of women across all countries and societies and find an strong likelihood that women that are murdered are murdered by their male partner.
polevaultpower wrote: It's possible that he is suffering from PTSD, it's extremely difficult for any of US to appreciate what it's like to live in constant fear of dangerous criminals in your own home. The US media portrays him as a paranoid gun nut, but to live in that kind of fear is completely reasonable for the neighborhood/country that he lives in, especially given that he is a celebrity, so the criminals KNOW that he has money. .....
His behavior so far has been consistent with someone who made a horrible mistake. As far as we can tell, he has been cooperating with the cops. He appears to be absolutely devastated by the whole thing.
This sort of tragedy is fairly common in South Africa. The police are pretty much worthless against the real criminals there. Pistorius deserves a fair trial and to be punished for whatever the truth is. I hope that they are able to figure it out.
If the evidence clearly shows that this was premeditated, then he should be punished appropriately. I'm just having a hard time imagining why someone who _planned_ to kill someone would do it through a bathroom door, where you can't see your target and you leave a lot of evidence behind. If you planned to kill someone, you usually put some kind of planning into covering it up, and minimizing how much evidence is created.
The reports so far (and of course we don't know if they are true) are of arguing going on directly before the shooting and police having been called to the property on multiple previous occasions for domestic violence complaints. Somehow from this you get PTSD !!, (what past trauma is he stressed about ?) and a tragic mistake of a violent burglary, despite his gated community being reported as one of the safest places in SA.
I'm passing no judgements yet but when it walks and talks like a duck !!
I would assume the police and prosecutors have rather more information at their disposal than we do so questioning the charges is rather ridiculous. I don't know the SA legal system or their definition of premeditation but say they had been fighting all night as neighbours apparently reported, threats are made, maybe a beating (who knows) and she runs and locks herself in the bathroom, he goes and gets a gun and shoots her. That could certainly be construed as pre meditation.
I'm not suggesting this is what happened but for the police to charge him so quickly and with the severity that they have, we have to assume there is a whole lot of evidence of something untoward.
As for the police being 'worthless', violent crimes rates may be high but the have fallen by 35% in the last 8 years and it will continue to do so as the country becomes more more prosperous and equal. If there's one country that gets a pass for a lot of things from me, while trying to negotiate itself into normalcy, it's SA
user4 wrote:A man shoots his girlfriend dead in his own home and we are wondering if he is guilty ? ... We are doomed!
The publicly released information doesn't completely confirm that Pistorius is the shooter. He hasn't admitted it, they haven't completed or released the ballistics analysis to determine whether his gun was the murder weapon, there's no video of it, and there's no publicly released accounts of witnesses saying they saw him do it. Obviously he's the prime suspect right now, but if it turns out that somebody else was the shooter, it wouldn't be the first time that a man was arrested at the scene of his wife's or girlfriend's murder and later it was found that somebody else was the killer.
Last edited by 18.99s on Fri Feb 15, 2013 3:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
user4 wrote:A reasonable jurist would look at the percentage of deaths of women across all countries and societies and find an strong likelihood that women that are murdered are murdered by their male partner.
A reasonable jurist should judge each case on its own merits. IMO anyway
user4 wrote:A man shoots his girlfriend dead in his own home and we are wondering if he is guilty ? ... We are doomed!
It's not yet confirmed that Pistorius is the shooter. He hasn't admitted it, they haven't completed or released the ballistics analysis to determine whether his gun was the murder weapon, there's no video of it, and there's no publicly released accounts of witnesses saying they saw him do it. Obviously he's the prime suspect right now, but if it turns out that somebody else was the shooter, it wouldn't be the first time that a man was arrested at the scene of his wife's or girlfriend's murder and later it was found that somebody else was the killer.
I've specifically heard the police say there was no one else involved, no sign of forced entry and that it was his gun used in the shooting !!
There's no evidence at this point that anyone else could have possibly committed the shooting. I'd like to think the police would be a little less aggressive with the prosecution if that was the case! The main issue at this point seems to be whether or not he knew who he was killing at the time of the murder.
user4 wrote:A man shoots his girlfriend dead in his own home and we are wondering if he is guilty ? ... We are doomed!
It's not yet confirmed that Pistorius is the shooter. He hasn't admitted it, they haven't completed or released the ballistics analysis to determine whether his gun was the murder weapon, there's no video of it, and there's no publicly released accounts of witnesses saying they saw him do it. Obviously he's the prime suspect right now, but if it turns out that somebody else was the shooter, it wouldn't be the first time that a man was arrested at the scene of his wife's or girlfriend's murder and later it was found that somebody else was the killer.
I've specifically heard the police say there was no one else involved, no sign of forced entry and that it was his gun used in the shooting !!
any evidence i have seen is not good for oscar
that doesnt mean i would not change my mind if compelling evidence came forth
the four gunshot wounds seems more like a crime of passion than anything else
you argue, you get mad, you lose your mind for the moment
Conor Dary wrote:Saville and Armstrong? Can we stop with these silly and stupid comparisons. The first is a serial child molester and Armstrong took some PEDs in a sport, that few really care about, rife with the stuff.
Some of you guys really don't like Armstrong, which is fine. But you are off your rockers putting those two names in the same sentence.
No on was comparing their behaviour but the media's treatment of them, which is a totally valid point.
No it's not. You might have an argument in 6 months, but the Pistorius thing is far too immediate to make any meaningful judgments about "media treatment." And if you re-read the more inane comments above, you WILL see at least some comparison of behaviour.
This is rubbish. The only link people ahve mad eis that Nike athletes keep fucking up. Not one person has linked adultery and cheating with murder.
mump boy wrote:I've specifically heard the police say there was no one else involved, no sign of forced entry and that it was his gun used in the shooting !!
I know they said there was no sign of forced entry. But for the other aspects of it, what is the basis for those conclusions? He denies it, and they couldn't have finished the ballistics analysis yet. I don't trust police conclusions early in a case before the evidence has been properly analyzed.
polevaultpower wrote:There's no evidence at this point that anyone else could have possibly committed the shooting. I'd like to think the police would be a little less aggressive with the prosecution if that was the case!
Police and prosecutors like to jump to conclusions and prosecute aggressively. Their primary goal is to convict somebody, not find the truth.
polevaultpower wrote:There's no evidence at this point that anyone else could have possibly committed the shooting. I'd like to think the police would be a little less aggressive with the prosecution if that was the case!
Police and prosecutors like to jump to conclusions and prosecute aggressively. Their primary goal is to convict somebody, not find the truth.
While I'm sure this is sometimes true, that doesn't mean it is automatically true for everything. At the end of the day evidence will lead to a conviction whatever the police want. And they know that.
I would think that an athlete with as high a profile as Pistorius would get pretty much every benefit of the doubt being that this wouldn't necessarily be the best case to be wrong about.
I think we are assuming that the South African police and judicial system will behave in the same way we might expect in the US. There's plenty of evidence that we should not make that assumption...
Oh, so the defence of Pistorius is turning into an attack of the Saffer judicial system and the police. Well, people in glass houses should not throw stones:
No judicial system is perfect, and certainly not the US, or the UK, but from what I have seen, I am confident that the Saffer authorities will prosecute this case with the required professionalism. Not every country in Africa is backward, you know....
