Pistorius implicated in a murder

[DrJay]

About his "sportsmanship" and mentality this says a lot:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/peopl ... 96154.html

I hadn't heard this before. From the above link:

"Tom Hanks started bidding for the film rights to the story of the young South African with the J-shaped prosthetics. The plot was compelling: the first double-amputee to compete against able-bodied athletes in an Olympic Games, who was listed in 2012 by Time magazine among the world's 100 most-influential people."

[JumboElliott]

I find it absolutely abhorent and dangerous to compare other cheaters such Tiger, Armstrong and innumberable other cheating athletes in T&FN/NFL/MBL/NBA etc with a man that murdered someone. To even discuss the various societal ills in sport in the same breath as murder is a horrible wrong in itself, does more damage to society than cheating in a bike race.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-wGd2NtdnflY/U ... apping.jpg

[JRM]

I think the other thread entitled "Pistorius implicated in murder" is more appropriately named, and seems to be the one taking off.

What a shameful and offensive title for this one. I think gh will do us a favor in closing it.

[odelltrclan]

I find it absolutely abhorent and dangerous to compare other cheaters such Tiger, Armstrong and innumberable other cheating athletes in T&FN/NFL/MBL/NBA etc with a man that murdered someone. To even discuss the various societal ills in sport in the same breath as murder is a horrible wrong in itself, does more damage to society than cheating in a bike race.

As opposed to "applause" as someone else has done I would ask a question. Shouldn't we wait and find out the details before labeling someone a hardened criminal and murderer? No one on this board knows what happened at his home. His girlfriend was tweeting only yesterday about finding a nice surprise for Valentine's day. I am more apt to believe it was an unfortunate accident than a murder.

I have had yelling at my home once upon a time whether in a spout with a wife, or being angry at kids. I have heard some from other neighbhors. I can only imagine living in adjoining apartments. I think most of us have the good sense of at least waiting to find out accurate details before comparing Pistorius with anyone. What happened is a tragedy regardless of how it happened.

[gh]

I think the other thread entitled "Pistorius implicated in murder" is more appropriately named, and seems to be the one taking off.

What a shameful and offensive title for this one. I think gh will do us a favor in closing it.

gh has been en route from heaven on earth to NYC for most of the day.

[Dave]

Think Nike might want to revise their advertising campaign? http://www.101greatgoals.com/other-sports/picture-nike-might-want-to-reconsider-their-oscar-pistorius-slogan/#.URy7Nd1sMnE.twitter

How many big name endorsers have gone down in flames lately? Armstrong, Pistorius, Paterno, various baseball players, Tiger Woods, etc

Woods, Armstrong and Pistorius? The loonies are going full board....

Woods had an affair. Who cares. Armstrong was taking EPO, another who cares in the world of cycling.

And then we have a guy who murders someone and somehow they are all the same.....

I never meant to equate their behavior. I am perfectly aware of the difference in magnitude of their misdeeds. I only meant to say that nike's recent record with endorsers has not worked we'll for them.

[mump boy]

So he's been to court and the charge is premeditated murder. There is no evidence of a break in and nobody else at the residence

Apparently she was shot through a bathroom door, as if she was trying to get away from him !!

[peach77]

I've read this thread (and many others in other places) over the past 24 hours and I really don't know where to start. Firstly, I think it's a sad indictment of our society that this thread has gotten this far with scarce mention of the victim. Yes, he's a celebrity, but a WOMAN HAS DIED! I can't believe people are sat here speculating whether this is all evidence of him being on drugs when we're talking about someone's life.

I also find it disgusting that people are so ready to rip his character apart now when they weren't 48 hours ago. There's an article in the Telegraph newspaper today about Oscar being some sort of gun loving monster- well, it's easy to say now, right? For a quick buck and a cheap headline. I hate this muck raking, what does it achieve?

Personally, I'm devastated. Whatever anyone else believed about him, I truly believe that at the beginning it wasn't about the superstar lifestyle or wanting to win (able bodied) medals- it was about a human being wanting to be accepted by other human beings as the same rather than a freakshow. The terrible thing about this, of course, is that now he's made himself the biggest freakshow of them all...

So, so tragic...

[mump boy]

While i agree with all of the above, i think there is the hint of the Jimmy Saville/Lance Armstrong to this story. It is only now that we get a chance to see behind the massive PR machine that some of the truth may actually come out and people feel safe enough to comment on previous behaviours. People have tried to tell these stories before but have been silenced and threatened with legal action

Where did the initial story about him thinking she was a burglar come from ?? it certainly didn't come from the police or any authorities. It sounds like some very smart spin to me.

[peach77]

Oh I agree with that too but, as with the Jimmy Savile stuff, there is an awful lot of stuff coming out that's nonsense from the press...that was more my point

[schigh]

"I never meant to equate their behavior. I am perfectly aware of the difference in magnitude of their misdeeds. I only meant to say that nike's recent record with endorsers has not worked we'll for them."

I don't know that it implicates Nike necessarily (and I'm not a fan of their marketing), but I think it suggests that fame often contributes to people not acting rationally or at least magnifies it. Admittedly, this is an extreme example. I think famous people who are not selfish jerks are so refreshing because it doesn't seem to be the norm.

[Pego]

I also find it disgusting that people are so ready to rip his character apart now when they weren't 48 hours ago.

Are there many things worse than being a murderer? 48 hours ago he was not.

[az2004]

i agree with peach77

it only takes a brief momnt to do something stupid

i dont know what happened, and many are only guessing here

it is tragic, for eveyone involved

[18.99s]

Apparently she was shot through a bathroom door, as if she was trying to get away from him !!

Was that stated in court? Or is it just another media fabrication, like the earlier report about mistaking her for an intruder?

[user4]

I also find it disgusting that people are so ready to rip his character apart now when they weren't 48 hours ago.

Are there many things worse than being a murderer? 48 hours ago he was not.

Bingo!

We are about to go into the bizarre world of "defense attorney carnival act" where the high powered and high paid firm tries to convince you, the public, that your use of "reasonable doubt" should basically lead you to the following, (that is if you are a reasonable and intelligent person of course):

since no witness saw a tibetan munk, residing in tibet, actually pull the trigger and kill her, and likewise since no witness actually saw bladerunner pull the trigger and kill her, then it logically follows we have to treat bladerunner like a tibetan monk. The defense wants you to know the "facts", that the only eye witness that can testify about what happened is a wonderful fellow named bladerunner and his story is perfectly plausible.

[gh]

There's now a bit on the front page with links to multiple stories. Lots of repetition, obviously, but I think each of them brings something of value to the big picture.

[Cooter Brown]

I can't find the link unfortunately but I read somewhere that he was arrested for assault on a 19 year old girl back in '09 or so but charges were never filed. She was at a party at his house and he yelled at her to leave. He grabbed her and shoved her out the door and while she was against the door jam, repeatedly slammed the door into her.

[Conor Dary]

While i agree with all of the above, i think there is the hint of the Jimmy Saville/Lance Armstrong to this story.

Saville and Armstrong? Can we stop with these silly and stupid comparisons. The first is a serial child molester and Armstrong took some PEDs in a sport, that few really care about, rife with the stuff.

Some of you guys really don't like Armstrong, which is fine. But you are off your rockers putting those two names in the same sentence.

[Conor Dary]

i agree with peach77

it only takes a brief momnt to do something stupid

i dont know what happened, and many are only guessing here

it is tragic, for eveyone involved

Yea, sort of like Oswald was only stupid for a few moments in Dealy Plaza. Those mistakes just sort of happen...

And with multiple shots I doubt it was any sort of accident.

Paramedics are already at the scene, trying in vain to save Ms Steenkamp's life. She is declared dead, after being shot in the head and upper body, the spokeswoman says.

[Daisy]

it only takes a brief moment to do something stupid

A good reason not to have loaded guns all over the house.

[Conor Dary]

it only takes a brief moment to do something stupid

A good reason not to have loaded guns all over the house.

Not trying to provoke the gun debate again, which I agree is the third rail, but Daisy's comment and this case reminds me of what I read in yesterday's NYTimes.

“The literature suggests that having a gun in your home to protect your family is like bringing a time bomb into your house,” said Dr. Mark Rosenberg, an epidemiologist who helped establish the C.D.C.’s National Center for Injury Prevention and Control. “Instead of protecting you, it’s more likely to blow up.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/14/us/to ... wanted=all

[az2004]

According to the Beeld newspaper, a resident of the upmarket Silver Woods Country Estate said Steenkamp’s body was found in the bathroom

She was apparently shot four times: in the head, chest, pelvis and hand, the report said.

does not sound good for pistorious, without knwing details we can only speculate

[user4]

it only takes a brief moment to do something stupid

A good reason not to have loaded guns all over the house.

Not trying to provoke the gun debate again, which I agree is the third rail, but Daisy's comment and this case reminds me of what I read in yesterday's NYTimes.

“The literature suggests that having a gun in your home to protect your family is like bringing a time bomb into your house,” said Dr. Mark Rosenberg, an epidemiologist who helped establish the C.D.C.’s National Center for Injury Prevention and Control. “Instead of protecting you, it’s more likely to blow up.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/14/us/to ... wanted=all

Especially if you are looking for a suicide tool. In Europe, a more sophisticated place, they just use drugs . If only the US would learn from our civilized cousins the carpet and wall cleanup at the sucide site would be much more acceptable :

http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/suicide.htm

[user4]

While i agree with all of the above, i think there is the hint of the Jimmy Saville/Lance Armstrong to this story.

Saville and Armstrong? Can we stop with these silly and stupid comparisons. The first is a serial child molester and Armstrong took some PEDs in a sport, that few really care about, rife with the stuff.

Some of you guys really don't like Armstrong, which is fine. But you are off your rockers putting those two names in the same sentence.

frighteningly, dangerously off their rockers.

[kuha]

While i agree with all of the above, i think there is the hint of the Jimmy Saville/Lance Armstrong to this story.

Saville and Armstrong? Can we stop with these silly and stupid comparisons. The first is a serial child molester and Armstrong took some PEDs in a sport, that few really care about, rife with the stuff.

Some of you guys really don't like Armstrong, which is fine. But you are off your rockers putting those two names in the same sentence.

frighteningly, dangerously off their rockers.

Amen. Collapsing all of these cases into some generic sense of "error" is beyond ridiculous.

[az2004]

i did have a brief encounter with oscar in 2011 in daegu

he was holding a function in the only big hotel in daegu and we ran into each other in the lobby, and i said oscar how are you

he seemed to be in a hurry and just rushed on to whatever he had to to..

can;t read anything into that, as he easily could have been late

only reason i figured out what was happening was because we trailed him to see where he was going in th hotel

[mump boy]

You people love hyperbole don't you !!

I obviously wasn't comparing their 'crimes' i was comparing the ability of good PR, money and influence to cover up people's bad behaviour.

[az2004]

http://money.msn.com/now/post.aspx?post ... 8bb7350b84

ran into this ad about nike and pistorius

who is the rreal oscar

who is the real tiger

who is the real lance

what are we to believe anymore

[Flumpy]

Saville and Armstrong? Can we stop with these silly and stupid comparisons. The first is a serial child molester and Armstrong took some PEDs in a sport, that few really care about, rife with the stuff.

Some of you guys really don't like Armstrong, which is fine. But you are off your rockers putting those two names in the same sentence.

No one was comparing their behaviour but the media's treatment of them. Mump made a totally valid point.

Just because you stan for Lance Armstrong it doesn't mean you have to take umbrage whenever hos name is mentioned, whatever the context.

[kuha]

Saville and Armstrong? Can we stop with these silly and stupid comparisons. The first is a serial child molester and Armstrong took some PEDs in a sport, that few really care about, rife with the stuff.

Some of you guys really don't like Armstrong, which is fine. But you are off your rockers putting those two names in the same sentence.

No on was comparing their behaviour but the media's treatment of them, which is a totally valid point.

No it's not. You might have an argument in 6 months, but the Pistorius thing is far too immediate to make any meaningful judgments about "media treatment." And if you re-read the more inane comments above, you WILL see at least some comparison of behaviour.

[Conor Dary]

Saville and Armstrong? Can we stop with these silly and stupid comparisons. The first is a serial child molester and Armstrong took some PEDs in a sport, that few really care about, rife with the stuff.

Some of you guys really don't like Armstrong, which is fine. But you are off your rockers putting those two names in the same sentence.

No one was comparing their behaviour but the media's treatment of them. Mump made a totally valid point.

Just because you stan for Lance Armstrong it doesn't mean you have to take umbrage whenever hos name is mentioned, whatever the context.

I don't stand for LA or anyone. I am really bored by all of the drugs stories, that is why I have avoided the LA thread like the plague. But here it pops again! I just think the treatment of LA is so over the top, especially from people who really don't care at all about cycling and only like seeing a celebrity get knocked down. And a statement that implies any similarity between a disgusting serial pedophile like your Jimmy Saville and Armstrong is idiotic, but par for the course...especially with the British media. The home of hacker central.

[Conor Dary]

I obviously wasn't comparing their 'crimes' i was comparing the ability of good PR, money and influence to cover up people's bad behaviour.

Bad behaviour? Taking EPO to do a 2500 mile insane bike race, in which probably every other cyclist is also doing, and comparing that to scumbag serial child rapist Jimmy Savile? Pretty dumb. The mind reels...

Armstrong's 'victims' were the other cyclists, who were also probably equally guilty and the Tour de France promoters who I have very little sympathy with since they let PEDs run rampant.

And then we have Savile's victims: hundreds of children at the last report......

But of course it is all just bad behavior.

PS. What is with the British obsession with Armstrong and this comparison with pure evil. During Armstrong's years the UK really sucked at the sport. However, they did have one good rider.....what was his name?....Oh, yes, David Millar.

Millar was eating in a restaurant in Bidart, near Biarritz, on 23 June 2004 when he was approached by three plainclothes policemen of the Paris drug squad at 8.25pm. They took Millar's watch, shoelaces, jewellery, keys and phone. After two and a half hours they found empty phials of Eprex, a brand of the blood-boosting drug EPO, and two used syringes. Millar said he had been given them as a gift at the Tour of Spain, that he had taken them to Manchester and used them. After that he had kept them as a souvenir. The detectives took Millar to the prison in Biarritz and put him alone in a cell.

...his phone calls had been tapped for four months and Millar eventually confessed to police on 24 June 2004. He admitted using EPO in 2001 and 2003.

[JumboElliott]

While i agree with all of the above, i think there is the hint of the Jimmy Saville/Lance Armstrong to this story. It is only now that we get a chance to see behind the massive PR machine that some of the truth may actually come out and people feel safe enough to comment on previous behaviours. People have tried to tell these stories before but have been silenced and threatened with legal action

Where did the initial story about him thinking she was a burglar come from ?? it certainly didn't come from the police or any authorities. It sounds like some very smart spin to me.

Why the hell are you comparing murder and child rape to a cyclist doping?

[mump boy]

Are you lot crazy or just pretending to be so ?

I'm so obviously comparing PR's ability to obfuscate poor behaviour, not comparing the behaviour itself

[polevaultpower]

Apparently she was shot through a bathroom door, as if she was trying to get away from him !!

Was that stated in court? Or is it just another media fabrication, like the earlier report about mistaking her for an intruder?

I don't think the media made up that she was shot through a bathroom door, it's being widely reported:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wor ... irlfriend/

It's possible that he is suffering from PTSD, it's extremely difficult for any of US to appreciate what it's like to live in constant fear of dangerous criminals in your own home. The US media portrays him as a paranoid gun nut, but to live in that kind of fear is completely reasonable for the neighborhood/country that he lives in, especially given that he is a celebrity, so the criminals KNOW that he has money.

If we had a US veteran suffering from PTSD, who woke up in the middle of the night and heard noises in their bathroom, shot through the door and killed their wife, we wouldn't charge them with premeditated murder. They'd probably get charged with manslaughter and try to plead temporary insanity or something.

His behavior so far has been consistent with someone who made a horrible mistake. As far as we can tell, he has been cooperating with the cops. He appears to be absolutely devastated by the whole thing.

This sort of tragedy is fairly common in South Africa. The police are pretty much worthless against the real criminals there. Pistorius deserves a fair trial and to be punished for whatever the truth is. I hope that they are able to figure it out.


And don't think I have a soft spot for criminals. One of my friends was murdered a few years ago. Clearly premeditated. It was really clear early on who did it. But evidence takes time to process and cases take time to build. The guy who did it got to run free for a year before they even arrested him. Then after delaying the trial for about a year, they let him plead down to Murder 2 at the last minute. He'll probably be out on bail after 10 years in jail. So I absolutely feel for this girls' friends and family who are just devastated right now.

If the evidence clearly shows that this was premeditated, then he should be punished appropriately. I'm just having a hard time imagining why someone who _planned_ to kill someone would do it through a bathroom door, where you can't see your target and you leave a lot of evidence behind. If you planned to kill someone, you usually put some kind of planning into covering it up, and minimizing how much evidence is created. My friend who was murdered was driven to the top of a mountain, shot in the back of his head, and then the body was hidden in the woods, the gun thrown in a (very large) lake. We were only lucky that some hikers were going off trail and happened to find him after a few days, it could have taken a lot longer than it did.