Pistorius implicated in a murder


A place for the discussion of all things not closely related to the sport and its competitive side. (as always, locked for the duration of major international championship)

Re: Pistorius implicated in a murder

Postby 18.99s » Mon Feb 18, 2013 8:01 am

Conor Dary wrote:The story gets weirder everyday. If it was fiction no one would believe it...


Half of the information in the media about this probably is fiction.
18.99s
 
Posts: 704
Joined: Wed Nov 30, 2011 5:28 am

Re: Pistorius implicated in a murder

Postby Conor Dary » Mon Feb 18, 2013 8:06 am

18.99s wrote:
Conor Dary wrote:The story gets weirder everyday. If it was fiction no one would believe it...


Half of the information in the media about this probably is fiction.


Yes, but which half?
Conor Dary
 
Posts: 6297
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: कनोर दारी in Ronald MacDonald's Home Town, and once a Duck always a Duck.

Re: Pistorius implicated in a murder

Postby 18.99s » Mon Feb 18, 2013 8:08 am

Daisy wrote:Is roid rage actually real? Could it possibly be a defense for what happened?


If anything it could be an incriminating factor, especially if steroids are illegal in South Africa. When you harm somebody while under the influence of an illegal substance, or a substance that is illegal to consume under the circumstances (e.g. alcohol and driving), the penalties are increased. For example, if the car you're driving kills somebody and it's found that you were DUI, you're getting locked up for manslaughter, you're not just facing a lawsuit like what would happen with a sober driver.
18.99s
 
Posts: 704
Joined: Wed Nov 30, 2011 5:28 am

Re: Pistorius implicated in a murder

Postby Conor Dary » Mon Feb 18, 2013 8:12 am

Daisy wrote:Is roid rage actually real? Could it possibly be a defense for what happened?


Perhaps Pego could enlighten us.
Conor Dary
 
Posts: 6297
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: कनोर दारी in Ronald MacDonald's Home Town, and once a Duck always a Duck.

Re: Pistorius implicated in a murder

Postby jeremyp » Mon Feb 18, 2013 8:27 am

Now perhaps an argument over "roid rage" which is amping up on other sites. Is it a genuine phenomenon? Do steroids merely accentuate already present behavioral problems? Enquiring minds....
jeremyp
 
Posts: 4542
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: Florida

Re: Pistorius implicated in a murder

Postby Blues » Mon Feb 18, 2013 8:34 am

Conor Dary wrote:
Daisy wrote:Is roid rage actually real? Could it possibly be a defense for what happened?


Perhaps Pego could enlighten us.


Based on my own limited experiences, my opinion is that yes, roid rage is possible, and I've personally witnessed personality changes and possible "roid rage" symptoms in anabolic steroid users... I'll wait for Pego and other medical professionals to comment though.
Blues
 
Posts: 1089
Joined: Sun Apr 05, 2009 9:58 am

Re: Pistorius implicated in a murder

Postby Daisy » Mon Feb 18, 2013 8:34 am

Conor Dary wrote:
Daisy wrote:Is roid rage actually real? Could it possibly be a defense for what happened?


Perhaps Pego could enlighten us.

The reason for my question is that I'm reminded of the myths associated with 'supermales', those that have an extra Y chromosome (XYY); see below. Possibly roid rage is another example of confirmation bias?

XYY men in particular have been negatively stereotyped by society. When it was first discovered, popular science writers speculated that the extra Y would make males more aggressive – and more prone to criminality – than their XY peers. (This view persists: the film 'Aliens 3' was set in a penal colony for XYY prisoners.)

The myth was backed up by some rather misleading statistics. A paper published in the 'Lancet' in 1968 claimed that the prevalence of XYY men in prison was 25-60 times as high as the prevalence in the general population. This prompted some to suggest that screening for XYY would identify potentially violent and criminal males.

But the quality of this research was soon questioned (it was later pointed out that only two XYY male prisoners were identified in the study) and the consensus today is there is no strong link between XYY and criminality. XYY men may tend to share certain features, but these are well within the 'normal' range of human variation.

http://www.wellcome.ac.uk/Education-res ... 028518.htm
Daisy
 
Posts: 13153
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am

Re: Pistorius implicated in a murder

Postby Pego » Mon Feb 18, 2013 8:54 am

I have no personal experience with "roid rage," all I know is what I read in literature which also seems to be more anecdotal than a comprehensive assesment. Of what I know, some cases of manic behaviour in long-term anabolic steroid users has been described, usually in those that had manic tendencies in their premorbid personalities. Be it as it may, there does not appear to be tendency of disconect with reality. In other words, use of roids may be an excuse for breaking a few dishes, not for murder.
Pego
 
Posts: 10197
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: beyond help

Re: Pistorius implicated in a murder

Postby Conor Dary » Mon Feb 18, 2013 9:00 am

Pego wrote:I have no personal experience with "roid rage," all I know is what I read in literature which also seems to be more anecdotal than a comprehensive assesment. Of what I know, some cases of manic behaviour in long-term anabolic steroid users has been described, usually in those that had manic tendencies in their premorbid personalities. Be it as it may, there does not appear to be tendency of disconect with reality. In other words, use of roids may be an excuse for breaking a few dishes, not for murder.


Oh, dear, that doesn't sound helpful for BM.....What next????
Conor Dary
 
Posts: 6297
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: कनोर दारी in Ronald MacDonald's Home Town, and once a Duck always a Duck.

Re: Pistorius implicated in a murder

Postby jamboy » Mon Feb 18, 2013 9:43 am

Banned steriods found at Pistorius home.


http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/ne ... nkamp.html

BANNED steroid drugs were found in Oscar Pistorius’s house after he shot dead lover Reeva Steenkamp.
Police also discovered a blood-stained cricket bat in the Blade Runner’s mansion in Pretoria, South Africa — and evidence of heavy drinking before the 3am shooting. Cops are now probing a theory that Pistorius may have blasted Reeva in an explosion of fury caused by the performance-boosting steroids.
jamboy
 
Posts: 1245
Joined: Sun Feb 10, 2008 7:52 am

Re: Pistorius implicated in a murder

Postby JumboElliott » Mon Feb 18, 2013 9:53 am

Ugh. There is little science behind so-called "roid rage"
JumboElliott
 
Posts: 2122
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2011 2:46 am

Re: Pistorius implicated in a murder

Postby user4 » Mon Feb 18, 2013 10:15 am

jeremyp wrote:Now perhaps an argument over "roid rage" which is amping up on other sites. Is it a genuine phenomenon? Do steroids merely accentuate already present behavioral problems? Enquiring minds....



Pretty sure that they just accentuate already present problems. For instance, any guy (with average metabolic function) having to endure a stunningly beautiful super model at his residence over night on valentines day would be absolutely outraged and beside himself with bitter deep seated resentment and anger. But while the average guy would have simply beat her senseless, toss some steroids into his cocktail and that all american boy will immediately grab for the glock pistol to shoot her to death. Makes perfect sense.

Next out, a special report on whether emotionally handicapped people that are exalted as saints and treated like rock stars and demi-gods by multi-billion dollar corporate media machines are prone to narcissistic fits of homicidal rage.
user4
 
Posts: 1434
Joined: Sat Jan 14, 2012 1:05 pm

Re: Pistorius implicated in a murder

Postby gh » Mon Feb 18, 2013 10:46 am

After decades of observation of the subject and talking to many users/friends of users, my take is that roid rage exists, but not in the sense that it takes ordinary people and Jekyll & Hydes them. It merely amplifies existing personality traits. So if somebody is generally meek and mild-mannered, they stay that way. Somebody with a temper, on the other hand, MAY end up with that being amped-up a little.

My guess is that most roid-rage incidents through the years have actually been amphetamine fueled, since there's definitely a linkage of doing the two in concert.
gh
 
Posts: 46321
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:31 am
Location: firmly at Arya's side!

Re: Pistorius implicated in a murder

Postby jeremyp » Mon Feb 18, 2013 12:17 pm

gh wrote:After decades of observation of the subject and talking to many users/friends of users, my take is that roid rage exists, but not in the sense that it takes ordinary people and Jekyll & Hydes them. It merely amplifies existing personality traits. So if somebody is generally meek and mild-mannered, they stay that way. Somebody with a temper, on the other hand, MAY end up with that being amped-up a little.

My guess is that most roid-rage incidents through the years have actually been amphetamine fueled, since there's definitely a linkage of doing the two in concert.

Add to that a super competitive personality and alcohol...... My career in mental health tells me Pistorius had personality issues already in place that steroids and alcohol (?) accentuated. These will probably come out in the media as more people tell stories.
jeremyp
 
Posts: 4542
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: Florida

Re: Pistorius implicated in a murder

Postby JumboElliott » Mon Feb 18, 2013 12:27 pm

I just hope that the steroids crap doesn't take away the fact that there's no excuse for killing someone in malice.
JumboElliott
 
Posts: 2122
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2011 2:46 am

Re: Pistorius implicated in a murder

Postby tandfman » Mon Feb 18, 2013 12:37 pm

The latest news from The Onion:

http://www.theonion.com/articles/oscar- ... dif,31341/

Facing allegations that he killed girlfriend Reeva Steenkamp during a dispute at his Pretoria mansion last week, track star Oscar Pistorius swore before a judge Monday that a bloodied cricket bat found on his property was in fact used in a completely different murder.


:)
tandfman
 
Posts: 15041
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:31 am

Re: Pistorius implicated in a murder

Postby 18.99s » Mon Feb 18, 2013 12:42 pm

JumboElliott wrote:I just hope that the steroids crap doesn't take away the fact that there's no excuse for killing someone in malice.


If steroids affect the case it would be a negative factor for him, not an excuse that helps him to get away with anything. Just like if a drunk pilot crash-landed a plane due to pilot error, they'll go to prison because of being drunk, whereas if the same error happened when sober maybe they only get their license suspended or revoked.
18.99s
 
Posts: 704
Joined: Wed Nov 30, 2011 5:28 am

Re: Pistorius implicated in a murder

Postby mump boy » Mon Feb 18, 2013 12:45 pm

No juries in SA and other questioned answered here

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/fe ... al-q-and-a
mump boy
 
Posts: 5636
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: saaaaaarf london

Re: Pistorius implicated in a murder

Postby Conor Dary » Mon Feb 18, 2013 1:07 pm

tandfman wrote:The latest news from The Onion:

http://www.theonion.com/articles/oscar- ... dif,31341/

Facing allegations that he killed girlfriend Reeva Steenkamp during a dispute at his Pretoria mansion last week, track star Oscar Pistorius swore before a judge Monday that a bloodied cricket bat found on his property was in fact used in a completely different murder.


:)


I think this crime could have only happened in SA. In the UK while cricket bats are plentiful, guns are very hard to come by, especially handguns. And in the US while there is no shortage of handguns, cricket bats are a rare commodity, though I own one, on this side of the Atlantic.
Conor Dary
 
Posts: 6297
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: कनोर दारी in Ronald MacDonald's Home Town, and once a Duck always a Duck.

Re: Pistorius implicated in a murder

Postby Grasshopper » Mon Feb 18, 2013 1:27 pm

gh wrote:After decades of observation of the subject and talking to many users/friends of users, my take is that roid rage exists, but not in the sense that it takes ordinary people and Jekyll & Hydes them. It merely amplifies existing personality traits. So if somebody is generally meek and mild-mannered, they stay that way. Somebody with a temper, on the other hand, MAY end up with that being amped-up a little.

My guess is that most roid-rage incidents through the years have actually been amphetamine fueled, since there's definitely a linkage of doing the two in concert.

Reminds me of an old Bill Cosby line, "I said to a guy, 'Tell me, what is it about cocaine that makes it so wonderful,' and he said, 'Because it intensifies your personality.' I said, 'Yes, but what if you're an asshole?' "
Grasshopper
 
Posts: 942
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: In front of my computer

Re: Pistorius implicated in a murder

Postby GMH454 » Mon Feb 18, 2013 1:31 pm

sorry to drop in late, but Gh is right as usual, coming from PLing back in the 70's and 80's when people were taking doses that would blow up the modern testing equipment, (you would not believe what some of those guys did ... sad but true) the amount of violence among lifters was very low. (although I do remember the odd scary moment, ).

think if that is part of your nature then upping your "T" levels no matter how it is done can make your more of a "hairy chest beater", than you might of been, they raise confidence and other factors that can obsure judgement.

as a defence, been tried before, but think it is like trying to defend killing someone on DUI..... "sorry your honour I was off my face drunk and could barely walk let alone drive", that one does not fly any more

if he was on, what was he using to beat the tests, intrigues me more
GMH454
 
Posts: 118
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2007 7:37 pm

Re: Pistorius implicated in a murder

Postby user4 » Mon Feb 18, 2013 4:25 pm

JumboElliott wrote:I just hope that the steroids crap doesn't take away the fact that there's no excuse for killing someone in malice.


I think your hopes are well founded and you will not be disappointed.
user4
 
Posts: 1434
Joined: Sat Jan 14, 2012 1:05 pm

Re: Pistorius implicated in a murder

Postby Dave » Mon Feb 18, 2013 6:31 pm

user4 wrote:
JumboElliott wrote:I just hope that the steroids crap doesn't take away the fact that there's no excuse for killing someone in malice.


I think your hopes are well founded and you will not be disappointed.


Doesn't testing apply to paraolympians?
Dave
 
Posts: 2120
Joined: Sun Aug 20, 2006 3:16 pm

Re: Pistorius implicated in a murder

Postby mump boy » Tue Feb 19, 2013 6:39 am

I know they have to try something but seriously who shoots a suspected burglar through a locked door !!

it is so totally implausible it might just work :roll:
mump boy
 
Posts: 5636
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: saaaaaarf london

Re: Pistorius implicated in a murder

Postby Blues » Tue Feb 19, 2013 7:09 am

Dave wrote:
user4 wrote:
JumboElliott wrote:I just hope that the steroids crap doesn't take away the fact that there's no excuse for killing someone in malice.


I think your hopes are well founded and you will not be disappointed.


Doesn't testing apply to paraolympians?


I don't know what steroids they found in his home, but today's testing isn't too effective when it comes to testosterone PED usage if the athlete and his/her medical advisors are careful. If we knew the truth, I think we'd all be familiar with multiple athletes who supplement with testosterone but haven't tested positive.
Blues
 
Posts: 1089
Joined: Sun Apr 05, 2009 9:58 am

Re: Pistorius implicated in a murder

Postby az2004 » Tue Feb 19, 2013 7:14 am

i try to stay away from the details because there's too muach i cant know about

the locked in a bathroom etc, etc

if the case convinces a jury, guit or innocence is irrelevant
az2004
 
Posts: 3131
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am

Re: Pistorius implicated in a murder

Postby schigh » Tue Feb 19, 2013 7:44 am

It appears that one key 'fact' the two sides disagree on is whether or not he had his prosthetic legs on at the time of the shooting. It seems like they should be able to determine this by the angles of the bullets, etc.
schigh
 
Posts: 113
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am

Re: Pistorius implicated in a murder

Postby bushop » Tue Feb 19, 2013 7:55 am

mump boy wrote:... who shoots a suspected burglar through a locked door?

I would; if I thought the intruder was reloading or unjamming a weapon.
bushop
 
Posts: 1866
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: near the toys and tape measures

Re: Pistorius implicated in a murder

Postby jeremyp » Tue Feb 19, 2013 8:01 am

az2004 wrote:i try to stay away from the details because there's too muach i cant know about

the locked in a bathroom etc, etc

if the case convinces a jury, guit or innocence is irrelevant

As stated earlier there are no juries in S.A.
jeremyp
 
Posts: 4542
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: Florida

Re: Pistorius implicated in a murder

Postby eldanielfire » Tue Feb 19, 2013 8:12 am

JumboElliott wrote:Ugh. There is little science behind so-called "roid rage"


There is little Science behind any effect of steroids which aren't related to medical use because it would be unethical to perform those kind of tests. However there is plenty of reports and anecdotal evidence that Scientists have been perfectly happy to reference over the years.
eldanielfire
 
Posts: 1318
Joined: Mon Aug 27, 2012 7:07 am

Re: Pistorius implicated in a murder

Postby Conor Dary » Tue Feb 19, 2013 8:37 am

bushop wrote:
mump boy wrote:... who shoots a suspected burglar through a locked door?

I would; if I thought the intruder was reloading or unjamming a weapon.


Really? Unless you were alone wouldn't you assume it might be someone in there you know. I mean I think I would at least yell through the door to find out who was there.

But of course BM already knew who was there since she ran there...
Conor Dary
 
Posts: 6297
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: कनोर दारी in Ronald MacDonald's Home Town, and once a Duck always a Duck.

Re: Pistorius implicated in a murder

Postby kuha » Tue Feb 19, 2013 8:41 am

Unless there was an OUTSIDE door leading directly to the bathroom (rather unlikely) the whole "I had no idea who could possibly be in my bathroom" scenario is absurd. But its also absurd that that observation even needs to be made.
kuha
 
Posts: 9016
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: 3rd row, on the finish line

Re: Pistorius implicated in a murder

Postby Conor Dary » Tue Feb 19, 2013 8:49 am

kuha wrote:Unless there was an OUTSIDE door leading directly to the bathroom (rather unlikely) the whole "I had no idea who could possibly be in my bathroom" scenario is absurd. But its also absurd that that observation even needs to be made.


With all of the gun violence in this country I have never heard of an instance where someone shot an actual intruder behind a closed bathroom door. A pretty lame story. I am surprised BM couldn't have thought of something more plausible. Which probably shows that BM is not very bright.

PS. An outside door!! Like some outhouse.
Conor Dary
 
Posts: 6297
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: कनोर दारी in Ronald MacDonald's Home Town, and once a Duck always a Duck.

Re: Pistorius implicated in a murder

Postby Dave » Tue Feb 19, 2013 9:00 am

kuha wrote:Unless there was an OUTSIDE door leading directly to the bathroom (rather unlikely) the whole "I had no idea who could possibly be in my bathroom" scenario is absurd. But its also absurd that that observation even needs to be made.


I am guessing the prosecutors will be focused on discredited this sort of absurd scenario.
Dave
 
Posts: 2120
Joined: Sun Aug 20, 2006 3:16 pm

Re: Pistorius implicated in a murder

Postby mump boy » Tue Feb 19, 2013 9:05 am

kuha wrote:Unless there was an OUTSIDE door leading directly to the bathroom (rather unlikely) the whole "I had no idea who could possibly be in my bathroom" scenario is absurd. But its also absurd that that observation even needs to be made.


This ^^

it's not even like he woke up in the middle of the night and heard noises, we know from neighbours that there was shouting in the house but even if he did just wake up, rather than wondering where his girlfriend was and assuming she was in the bathroom, he just got a gun and started shooting !! with no evidence of a break in, no warning, not seeming to care that there was someone else legitimately in the house

Why would a burglar be in your bathroom anyway unless he was there to steal your steroids !!

What a load of crap
mump boy
 
Posts: 5636
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: saaaaaarf london

Re: Pistorius implicated in a murder

Postby DrJay » Tue Feb 19, 2013 9:39 am

mump boy wrote:Why would a burglar be in your bathroom anyway unless he was there to steal your steroids !! What a load of crap


Surely in the long and colorful history of burglary there's been at least a few guys who didn't plan ahead, and when you gotta go, you gotta go.
DrJay
 
Posts: 5483
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: Woodland Park, CO

Re: Pistorius implicated in a murder

Postby Conor Dary » Tue Feb 19, 2013 9:48 am

DrJay wrote:
mump boy wrote:Why would a burglar be in your bathroom anyway unless he was there to steal your steroids !! What a load of crap


Surely in the long and colorful history of burglary there's been at least a few guys who didn't plan ahead, and when you gotta go, you gotta go.


I think in Three Days of the Condor one of the victims is shot through the bathroom door. Maybe BM got the idea there.
Conor Dary
 
Posts: 6297
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: कनोर दारी in Ronald MacDonald's Home Town, and once a Duck always a Duck.

Re: Pistorius implicated in a murder

Postby batonless relay » Tue Feb 19, 2013 9:49 am

in Pistorius' own words:

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-202_162-575 ... own-words/

[list=]
16.7 During the early morning hours of 14 February 2013, I woke up, went onto the balcony to bring the fan in and closed the sliding doors, the blinds and the curtains. I heard a noise in the bathroom and realised that someone was in the bathroom.
16.8 I felt a sense of terror rushing over me. There are no burglar bars across the bathroom window and I knew that contractors who worked at my house had left the ladders outside. Although I did not have my prosthetic legs on I have mobility on my stumps.
16.9 I believed that someone had entered my house. I was too scared to switch a light on.
16.10 I grabbed my 9mm pistol from underneath my bed. On my way to the bathroom I screamed words to the effect for him/them to get out of my house and for Reeva to phone the police. It was pitch dark in the bedroom and I thought Reeva was in bed.
16.11 I noticed that the bathroom window was open. I realised that the intruder/s was/were in the toilet because the toilet door was closed and I did not see anyone in the bathroom. I heard movement inside the toilet. The toilet is inside the bathroom and has a separate door.
16.12 It filled me with horror and fear of an intruder or intruders being inside the toilet. I thought he or they must have entered through the unprotected window. As I did not have my prosthetic legs on and felt extremely vulnerable, I knew I had to protect Reeva and myself. I believed that when the intruder/s came out of the toilet we would be in grave danger. I felt trapped as my bedroom door was locked and I have limited mobility on my stumps.
16.13 I fired shots at the toilet door and shouted to Reeva to phone the police. She did not respond and I moved backwards out of the bathroom, keeping my eyes on the bathroom entrance. Everything was pitch dark in the bedroom and I was still too scared to switch on a light. Reeva was not responding.
16.14 When I reached the bed, I realised that Reeva was not in bed. That is when it dawned on me that it could have been Reeva who was in the toilet. I returned to the bathroom calling her name. I tried to open the toilet door but it was locked. I rushed back into the bedroom and opened the sliding door exiting onto the balcony and screamed for help.
16.15 I put on my prosthetic legs, ran back to the bathroom and tried to kick the toilet door open. I think I must then have turned on the lights. I went back into the bedroom and grabbed my cricket bat to bash open the toilet door. A panel or panels broke off and I found the key on the floor and unlocked and opened the door. Reeva was slumped over but alive.
16.16 I battled to get her out of the toilet and pulled her into the bathroom. I phoned Johan Stander ("Stander") who was involved in the administration of the estate and asked him to phone the ambulance. [/list]
batonless relay
 
Posts: 700
Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2013 9:40 am

Re: Pistorius implicated in a murder

Postby bushop » Tue Feb 19, 2013 9:52 am

Conor Dary wrote:
bushop wrote:
mump boy wrote:... who shoots a suspected burglar through a locked door?
I would; if I thought the intruder was reloading or unjamming a weapon.
Really? Unless you were alone wouldn't you assume it might be someone in there you know. I mean I think I would at least yell through the door to find out who was there.

Agreed.
bushop
 
Posts: 1866
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: near the toys and tape measures

Re: Pistorius implicated in a murder

Postby Conor Dary » Tue Feb 19, 2013 10:02 am

Now we know the bathroom door was locked, since BM had to use the cricket bat to break the door down. Two people in the house and she locks the door....hmmmm....BM should have had a better story lined up.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/20/world ... ge.html?hp
Conor Dary
 
Posts: 6297
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: कनोर दारी in Ronald MacDonald's Home Town, and once a Duck always a Duck.

PreviousNext

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 8 guests