A place for the discussion of all things not closely related to the sport and its competitive side. (Locked down several times a year during the major championships)
Oh give me a break. OJ attempted to cover up his crimes and fled (more or less) from the police. As far as we can tell Oscar has been cooperative.
The latest report from South Africa (which yes, is just another unconfirmed media report) is that Oscar carried his dying girlfriend downstairs and tried to save her: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... e-her.html
I still have yet to see anything that indicates the charges of premeditated murder are warranted.
It's really really horrible what happened, and even in the best case scenario for Oscar, he made an incredibly poor decision that cost an innocent girl her life. But comparing him to OJ seems unwarranted at this point.
There have been reports of an arguement before hand. So there is evidence, how strong it is will come out as the case progresses.
mump boy wrote:
odelltrclan wrote:
user4 wrote:why is humankind today so incapable of employing their vast empirical knowledge base regarding human motives, experiences and actions when it comes to making inferences of these kinds.
If he is guilty, he is going to spend the rest of his life in jail, or, possibly, executed. Something that probably thrills you.
SA haven't had the death penalty since '95
They are a civilised country these days
Given the high crime rates and especially violent crime rates, wide spread attacks on farmers, the need of anyone who can to live in gated communities, the masses of shanty towns on the edge of cities and the blatent and mass political corruption I'd hardly say civilised is how I'd describe South Africa exactly death penality or not. It headed to civilisation but has had a log stop in its journey.
polevaultpower wrote:he made an incredibly poor decision that cost an innocent girl her life
A "poor decision" in my vocabulary is making a wrong turn, oversalting an omelette, removing the mail from the mailbox in a downpour, telling my wife a sexist joke at a wrong time...Oscar Pistorius did not make a "poor decision", he murdered a defenseless young woman, seemingly in a fit of anger. I don't know if it was "premeditated" and it makes no difference to me. Sorry, Becca.
Absolutely. In this context, the words "incredibly poor decision" are just astoundingly offensive and absurd.
polevaultpower wrote:he made an incredibly poor decision that cost an innocent girl her life
A "poor decision" in my vocabulary is making a wrong turn, oversalting an omelette, removing the mail from the mailbox in a downpour, telling my wife a sexist joke at a wrong time...Oscar Pistorius did not make a "poor decision", he murdered a defenseless young woman, seemingly in a fit of anger. I don't know if it was "premeditated" and it makes no difference to me. Sorry, Becca.
Absolutely. In this context, the words "incredibly poor decision" are just astoundingly offensive and absurd.
I can't argue with this. Premeditated or not a person has been killed and almost certainly murdered, poor decision isn't even close to accurately or fairly describing what happened even without all the facts.
user4 wrote:why is humankind today so incapable of employing their vast empirical knowledge base regarding human motives, experiences and actions when it comes to making inferences of these kinds.
If Oscar is guilty . . you know what, they have him in custody. They have charged him. Every person is entitled to their day in court. If he is guilty, he is going to spend the rest of his life in jail, or, possibly, executed. Something that probably thrills you.
I am glad we have people who do not rush to judgment, take their time, and allow people the opportunity to defend themselves. Its far better than the days of lynching that you seem so eager to go back to.
The pendulum of justice swings in society, it has swung in one direction for just a bit too long and the results are not good. I welcome it swinging back a hair so that people that are guilty do not go free. I think we all vent on forums such as this and I have vented a bit, but yes it is true what you say : "If he is guilty, he is going to spend the rest of his life in jail, or, possibly, executed. Something that probably thrills you." Because the alternative of a selfish vile narcissist getting away with murder makes my blood boil.
user4 wrote:why is humankind today so incapable of employing their vast empirical knowledge base regarding human motives, experiences and actions when it comes to making inferences of these kinds.
If he is guilty, he is going to spend the rest of his life in jail, or, possibly, executed. Something that probably thrills you.
SA haven't had the death penalty since '95
They are a civilised country these days
The judgement that a "civilized country" is one that does not have a death penalty is hard to understand. I would suggest that society's/community's/country's that exhibit low rape, murder, assault, robbery rates are better indicators of a civil society.
There are countless reasons why a culture may choose to have or not have a death penalty, none of them seem to me to rule out the ability of a country to have equal liberty for its people and allow them to freely move about without any fear of harm or death or robbery or rape. When those crimes are committed by those calling themselves a government it is a sign of total chaos.
There are some countries that apply the death penalty to crimes that we in the west would deem uncivilized. That is understandable and I agree. But it does not follow that all societies that execute murderers are uncivilized, it can be quite the opposite.
User4, while the factors you point out are much better indicators, mump does have a point. Although most people support the death penalty, you cannot argue that it is much more 'civilised' not to have it.
Oscar needs to prepare his anus. He's gonna be popular in prison.
Beeld reports that police had been called to Pistorius's house two hours before the shooting, after neighbors complained of a loud argument between him and Steenkamp.
police believe that Steenkamp was sitting "on the lavatory"—bathroom sink—when Pistorius shot her through the bathroom door
Between the sad goings-on with Pistorius and Favor-Hamilton, et al, the past few months, I find myself yearning for a near future when athletes are only making news on the track, not off it. .
user4 wrote:why is humankind today so incapable of employing their vast empirical knowledge base regarding human motives, experiences and actions when it comes to making inferences of these kinds.
If he is guilty, he is going to spend the rest of his life in jail, or, possibly, executed. Something that probably thrills you.
SA haven't had the death penalty since '95
They are a civilised country these days
The judgement that a "civilized country" is one that does not have a death penalty is hard to understand. I would suggest that society's/community's/country's that exhibit low rape, murder, assault, robbery rates are better indicators of a civil society.
But it does not follow that all societies that execute murderers are uncivilized, it can be quite the opposite.
My comment was obviously facetious, having no death penalty and low crime rates are not mutually exclusive, quite the opposite and any country that thinks killing of it's own citizens, in the name of justice, is appropriate is inherently uncivilised.
Police sources close to the investigation told South Africa's independent City Press newspaper that Steenkamp's skull had been "crushed".Police are investigating whether the bat was used to assault Steenkamp, who was shot four times in the early hours of Thursday, or if she used it to defend herself.
"The suspicion is that the first shot, in the bedroom, hit her in the hip. She then ran and hid herself in the toilet... He fire three more shots," a police source told City Press.
The paper said he could have experienced "roid rage", aggressive behaviour linked to taking large doses of steroids, describing the case against Pistorius as "rock-solid".
Uhm I'd like to hear some alternative theories about what happened that night that would account for a bloodied cricket bat, bashed in skull and four gunshots to the body. I wait patiently. Roid Rage is something I had posited on day 1.
Trackrunner wrote:Uhm I'd like to hear some alternative theories that would account for a bloodied cricket bat, bashed in skull and four gunshots to the body. I wait patiently. Roid Rage is something I had posited on day 1.
The #1 alternative theory is that the bloodied cricket bat and bashed in skull only exist in the minds of whoever in the media made it up, like the mistaken intruder story. That information has not been officially released by the police nor said in court.
Trackrunner wrote:Uhm I'd like to hear some alternative theories that would account for a bloodied cricket bat, bashed in skull and four gunshots to the body. I wait patiently. Roid Rage is something I had posited on day 1.
The #1 alternative theory is that the bloodied cricket bat and bashed in skull only exist in the minds of whoever in the media made it up, like the mistaken intruder story. That information has not been officially released by the police nor said in court.
I was going to say the say thing. Also a bloody cricket bat could easily come from dripping blood of moving the body or something.
The show, titled Tropika Island of Treasure, shows 29-year-old Reeva Steenkamp enjoying a number of Jamaican attractions, among them swimming with dolphins and rafting on the Martha Brae River. Yesterday, South Africa's national broadcaster SABC said it would air the show, yesterday evening. Tropika Island of Treasure was shot late July through August 2012 at various locations in Jamaica, among them Margaritaville in Negril, Time and Place in Trelawny, and Silver Sands in Trelawny. It features Steenkamp, as well as several persons, including Jamaicans, competing for one million rand (J$10 million) in prize money.
mump boy wrote:SA haven't had the death penalty since '95
They are a civilised country these days
user4 wrote:The judgement that a "civilized country" is one that does not have a death penalty is hard to understand. I would suggest that society's/community's/country's that exhibit low rape, murder, assault, robbery rates are better indicators of a civil society.
There are countless reasons why a culture may choose to have or not have a death penalty, none of them seem to me to rule out the ability of a country to have equal liberty for its people and allow them to freely move about without any fear of harm or death or robbery or rape. When those crimes are committed by those calling themselves a government it is a sign of total chaos.
There are some countries that apply the death penalty to crimes that we in the west would deem uncivilized. That is understandable and I agree. But it does not follow that all societies that execute murderers are uncivilized, it can be quite the opposite.
mump boy wrote:My comment was obviously facetious, having no death penalty and low crime rates are not mutually exclusive, quite the opposite and any country that thinks killing of it's own citizens, in the name of justice, is appropriate is inherently uncivilised.
We obviously agree that having no death penalty and a low crime rate are not mutually exclusive. It seems that where we disagree is that a death penalty and a civilized society are also not mutually exclusive.
Pretoria - SA police have denied leaking critical information about the Oscar Pistorius murder case which appeared in two Sunday newspapers.
"I don't know where people got these stories," lieutenant colonel Katlego Mogale told Sapa.
"Currently we haven't issued a statement or spoken to anyone."
On Sunday, the City Press reported that through "in-depth interviews" with sources "close" to the police investigation, it could reveal that a bloodied cricket bat found at Pistorius' home was going to be a key piece of evidence in court.
If the reports of a cricket bat and that her skull was crushed prove to be true then an act of passion become very dim indeed. I raise, again, the possibility of steroid rage.
iain wrote:That'll be because you are (presumably) American; well know for your liberal attitude when it comes to death, guns etc.
Careful with blanket generalizations. A suggestion that all Americans are the same is not only inaccurate, it is downright offensive.
I am not suggesting all Americans are the same, merely that this is how you are perceived, and in general it is probably true.
Regardless of whether your comments are valid or not, it might be wise to tread carefully to avoid hijacking the thread and to avoid eventually getting it locked.
iain wrote:Okay I will stop on this track, but in answer to your question: perceived by most of the (developed) world
I still dont know or understand what iain is saying ... and I assume it was my observations or comments that set him off. To answer, yes I am an american that has lived in every corner of america and in more than a few other corners of other nations large and small.
One thing that may indeed differentiate us is that some of us take perceptions very seriously, far more seriously than actual material reality. The mere perception of being considered unhip or unfashionable or not in synch with acceptable sensibilities is considered the gravest of offenses while the actual frequency of crimes, robberies and murder, rape and assault is not really worth serious study.
Others of us take the material difference between serious crime and no crime worth understanding with an aim to helping those in the the next generation reduce actual crime. Crime destroys lives and devastates families. I have never met the children or brothers and sisters, husbands and wives of murder victims whose lives were not ruined. I would hope to be in this category, not really concerned about perceptions that can be shaped by who-knows-what or whom but focused on making the lives of my neighbors safe and secure and full of peace and productive experiences.
I think that we all, you and I both, want to greatly reduce that kind of senseless tragedy. Having such a great concern about perceptions is hard to understand for some of us when actual violent crime is taking the lives of innocent people, real people in the real world, not just perceptions and commentary.
High profile crimes like the pistorius residence murder are important in that they can lead a society to equal justice under the law, each citizen being held accountable for their actions regardless of their wealth or social standing. There may be life giving rain in that cloud with the sliver lining over SA.
Last edited by user4 on Sun Feb 17, 2013 10:40 am, edited 3 times in total.
Pretoria - SA police have denied leaking critical information about the Oscar Pistorius murder case which appeared in two Sunday newspapers.
"I don't know where people got these stories," lieutenant colonel Katlego Mogale told Sapa.
"Currently we haven't issued a statement or spoken to anyone."
On Sunday, the City Press reported that through "in-depth interviews" with sources "close" to the police investigation, it could reveal that a bloodied cricket bat found at Pistorius' home was going to be a key piece of evidence in court.
Much as you may like to think otherwise, the article you link to actually indicates that the City Press story is accurate, and did, in fact, come from police sources. From the same article you quote:
The police's Mogale said she was "not at liberty" to say whether the leaked information was actually from the police docket.
"We can neither confirm nor deny [this]."
She said the leakage was "very serious" and an investigation would take place to discover who had been the sources giving information to the media."
I believe that falls into the category of a "non-denial denial."
Brian wrote:Between the sad goings-on with Pistorius and Favor-Hamilton, et al, the past few months, I find myself yearning for a near future when athletes are only making news on the track, not off it.
From this morning's news I was connecting Favor-Hamilton with Jesse Jackson Jr., both famous folks with mental issues who exhibited outrageous and reckless behavior.
bad hammy wrote:iain clearly needs to meet a few more Americans.
Brian wrote:Between the sad goings-on with Pistorius and Favor-Hamilton, et al, the past few months, I find myself yearning for a near future when athletes are only making news on the track, not off it.
From this morning's news I was connecting Favor-Hamilton with Jesse Jackson Jr., both famous folks with mental issues who exhibited outrageous and reckless behavior.
A good comparison. Neither of which deserves mention in the context of murder.
bad hammy wrote:From this morning's news I was connecting Favor-Hamilton with Jesse Jackson Jr., both famous folks with mental issues who exhibited outrageous and reckless behavior.
A good comparison. Neither of which deserves mention in the context of murder.
Didn't mean to imply that they (Pistorius and SFH/JJjr) were on the same level, in fact did not mention OP in my comment. It was a tangential comment based on another post and current events. And it's not exactly as if our discussion here is going to solve the case and any tangents are just slowing us from finding the real killer!
As far as the leaks go, many South African police are easily bribed. I'm sure the press is having no problem getting details of the investigation. Of course they should not be taken as facts until they are presented in trial, but there's nothing to indicate that they are coming out of thin air either.
bad hammy wrote:From this morning's news I was connecting Favor-Hamilton with Jesse Jackson Jr., both famous folks with mental issues who exhibited outrageous and reckless behavior.
A good comparison. Neither of which deserves mention in the context of murder.
Didn't mean to imply that they (Pistorius and SFH/JJjr) were on the same level, in fact did not mention OP in my comment. It was a tangential comment based on another post and current events. And it's not exactly as if our discussion here is going to solve the case and any tangents are just slowing us from finding the real killer!
Yes--I was agreeing with your perspective. I didn't do a great job, apparently. Hopefully, all the brilliant comments here will solve this crime in short order.
polevaultpower wrote:As far as the leaks go, many South African police are easily bribed. I'm sure the press is having no problem getting details of the investigation. Of course they should not be taken as facts until they are presented in trial, but there's nothing to indicate that they are coming out of thin air either.
because police across the rest of the world are whiter than white
you're obsessive need to try and make excuses is actually rather offensive
