Pistorius implicated in a murder


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Re: Pistorius implicated in a murder

Postby polevaultpower » Fri Feb 15, 2013 3:19 pm

There's no evidence at this point that anyone else could have possibly committed the shooting. I'd like to think the police would be a little less aggressive with the prosecution if that was the case! The main issue at this point seems to be whether or not he knew who he was killing at the time of the murder.
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Re: Pistorius implicated in a murder

Postby az2004 » Fri Feb 15, 2013 3:27 pm

mump boy wrote:
18.99s wrote:
user4 wrote:A man shoots his girlfriend dead in his own home and we are wondering if he is guilty ? ... We are doomed!


It's not yet confirmed that Pistorius is the shooter. He hasn't admitted it, they haven't completed or released the ballistics analysis to determine whether his gun was the murder weapon, there's no video of it, and there's no publicly released accounts of witnesses saying they saw him do it. Obviously he's the prime suspect right now, but if it turns out that somebody else was the shooter, it wouldn't be the first time that a man was arrested at the scene of his wife's or girlfriend's murder and later it was found that somebody else was the killer.


I've specifically heard the police say there was no one else involved, no sign of forced entry and that it was his gun used in the shooting !!




any evidence i have seen is not good for oscar

that doesnt mean i would not change my mind if compelling evidence came forth

the four gunshot wounds seems more like a crime of passion than anything else

you argue, you get mad, you lose your mind for the moment
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Re: Pistorius implicated in a murder

Postby eldanielfire » Fri Feb 15, 2013 3:30 pm

kuha wrote:
Flumpy wrote:
Conor Dary wrote:Saville and Armstrong? Can we stop with these silly and stupid comparisons. The first is a serial child molester and Armstrong took some PEDs in a sport, that few really care about, rife with the stuff.

Some of you guys really don't like Armstrong, which is fine. But you are off your rockers putting those two names in the same sentence.


No on was comparing their behaviour but the media's treatment of them, which is a totally valid point.


No it's not. You might have an argument in 6 months, but the Pistorius thing is far too immediate to make any meaningful judgments about "media treatment." And if you re-read the more inane comments above, you WILL see at least some comparison of behaviour.



This is rubbish. The only link people ahve mad eis that Nike athletes keep fucking up. Not one person has linked adultery and cheating with murder.
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Re: Pistorius implicated in a murder

Postby 18.99s » Fri Feb 15, 2013 3:59 pm

mump boy wrote:I've specifically heard the police say there was no one else involved, no sign of forced entry and that it was his gun used in the shooting !!


I know they said there was no sign of forced entry. But for the other aspects of it, what is the basis for those conclusions? He denies it, and they couldn't have finished the ballistics analysis yet. I don't trust police conclusions early in a case before the evidence has been properly analyzed.
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Re: Pistorius implicated in a murder

Postby 18.99s » Fri Feb 15, 2013 4:08 pm

polevaultpower wrote:There's no evidence at this point that anyone else could have possibly committed the shooting. I'd like to think the police would be a little less aggressive with the prosecution if that was the case!


Police and prosecutors like to jump to conclusions and prosecute aggressively. Their primary goal is to convict somebody, not find the truth.
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Re: Pistorius implicated in a murder

Postby eldanielfire » Fri Feb 15, 2013 4:49 pm

18.99s wrote:
polevaultpower wrote:There's no evidence at this point that anyone else could have possibly committed the shooting. I'd like to think the police would be a little less aggressive with the prosecution if that was the case!


Police and prosecutors like to jump to conclusions and prosecute aggressively. Their primary goal is to convict somebody, not find the truth.


While I'm sure this is sometimes true, that doesn't mean it is automatically true for everything. At the end of the day evidence will lead to a conviction whatever the police want. And they know that.
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Re: Pistorius implicated in a murder

Postby az2004 » Fri Feb 15, 2013 5:20 pm

this is so HIGH profile, the police want the result to be squeaky clean

i do agree mistakes are made, but the want no loopholes here

i suspect the victim, the women has family interested in the correct handling of the evidence

if some 3rd party emerges, and the evidence leads that way, then i would accept it
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Re: Pistorius implicated in a murder

Postby Dutra5 » Fri Feb 15, 2013 8:01 pm

I would think that an athlete with as high a profile as Pistorius would get pretty much every benefit of the doubt being that this wouldn't necessarily be the best case to be wrong about.
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Re: Pistorius implicated in a murder

Postby polevaultpower » Sat Feb 16, 2013 12:13 am

I think we are assuming that the South African police and judicial system will behave in the same way we might expect in the US. There's plenty of evidence that we should not make that assumption...

http://www.economist.com/node/21557385
http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news ... ficers-law
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Re: Pistorius implicated in a murder

Postby shivfan » Sat Feb 16, 2013 12:21 am

Oh, so the defence of Pistorius is turning into an attack of the Saffer judicial system and the police. Well, people in glass houses should not throw stones:

http://www.amnestyusa.org/our-work/issu ... -innocence

No judicial system is perfect, and certainly not the US, or the UK, but from what I have seen, I am confident that the Saffer authorities will prosecute this case with the required professionalism. Not every country in Africa is backward, you know....
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Re: Pistorius implicated in a murder

Postby mump boy » Sat Feb 16, 2013 2:05 am

polevaultpower wrote:I think we are assuming that the South African police and judicial system will behave in the same way we might expect in the US. There's plenty of evidence that we should not make that assumption...

http://www.economist.com/node/21557385
http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news ... ficers-law


You mean like this ??

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9zll--hgQpY

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Memphis_3
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Re: Pistorius implicated in a murder

Postby lionelp1 » Sat Feb 16, 2013 2:31 am

mump boy wrote:
polevaultpower wrote:I think we are assuming that the South African police and judicial system will behave in the same way we might expect in the US. There's plenty of evidence that we should not make that assumption...

http://www.economist.com/node/21557385
http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news ... ficers-law


You mean like this ??

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9zll--hgQpY

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Memphis_3


Lets hope that the SA trial is somewhat better and lacking the celebrity crap, masquerading as the majesty of the law, that takes place in the USA.Thinks , like the OJ Simpson travesty and shite celeb lawyers.!!!
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Re: Pistorius implicated in a murder

Postby vencio2 » Sat Feb 16, 2013 2:35 am

Shall we start taking bets on how much of today's Birmingham Indoor GP coverage is taken up by Denise and Collin pontificating on the latest Oscar developments.
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Re: Pistorius implicated in a murder

Postby mump boy » Sat Feb 16, 2013 3:21 am

vencio2 wrote:Shall we start taking bets on how much of today's Birmingham Indoor GP coverage is taken up by Denise and Collin pontificating on the latest Oscar developments.


:lol: :lol: Colin is a renowned expert on the SA legal system, indeed :wink:
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Re: Pistorius implicated in a murder

Postby dukehjsteve » Sat Feb 16, 2013 4:40 am

Oscar Pistorius = OJ Simpson
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Re: Pistorius implicated in a murder

Postby mump boy » Sat Feb 16, 2013 5:05 am

It's left Colin with the questions 'Why ?' !!
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Re: Pistorius implicated in a murder

Postby Pego » Sat Feb 16, 2013 5:16 am

dukehjsteve wrote:Oscar Pistorius = OJ Simpson


Hopefully with a different outcome.
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Re: Pistorius implicated in a murder

Postby polevaultpower » Sat Feb 16, 2013 7:43 am

dukehjsteve wrote:Oscar Pistorius = OJ Simpson


Oh give me a break. OJ attempted to cover up his crimes and fled (more or less) from the police. As far as we can tell Oscar has been cooperative.

The latest report from South Africa (which yes, is just another unconfirmed media report) is that Oscar carried his dying girlfriend downstairs and tried to save her: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... e-her.html

I still have yet to see anything that indicates the charges of premeditated murder are warranted.

It's really really horrible what happened, and even in the best case scenario for Oscar, he made an incredibly poor decision that cost an innocent girl her life. But comparing him to OJ seems unwarranted at this point.
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Re: Pistorius implicated in a murder

Postby mump boy » Sat Feb 16, 2013 7:54 am

polevaultpower wrote:
dukehjsteve wrote:Oscar Pistorius = OJ Simpson


Oh give me a break. OJ attempted to cover up his crimes and fled (more or less) from the police. As far as we can tell Oscar has been cooperative.

The latest report from South Africa (which yes, is just another unconfirmed media report) is that Oscar carried his dying girlfriend downstairs and tried to save her: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... e-her.html

I still have yet to see anything that indicates the charges of premeditated murder are warranted.

It's really really horrible what happened, and even in the best case scenario for Oscar, he made an incredibly poor decision that cost an innocent girl her life. But comparing him to OJ seems unwarranted at this point.


It seems totally warranted, even if just on a celebrity level. Also that report you've posted says she was killed while siting on the toilet !! hardly the actions of a burglar.

So far we are fairly certain of

Ex Girlfriends have accused him of violence
The police have been called on a number of occasions for domestic disputes
The Police we in attendance on the night of the shooting
Arguments where heard from the house on the night of the shooting
There were no burglars
She was shot through a bathroom door
She was shot 4 times
She was shot by OP

What kind of mistake could this possibly be ? Nobody would think their were burglars in the bathroom, nobody would shoot them without checking where their girlfriend was, no one should shoot them rather than calling the security in your GATED COMMUNITY.

The fact that he may have immediately regretted it and carried her down some stairs (how's that supposed to help ?) tells us nothing about guilt or premeditation. Those who commit domestic abuse are usually 'sorry' after that's how they get away with it for so long but it doesn't make them any more culpable.

I'm not saying he's guilty, until this goes to court of course we don't know all the details but pretending that at this time that it looks like anything but intentional is ridiculous
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Re: Pistorius implicated in a murder

Postby Conor Dary » Sat Feb 16, 2013 7:58 am

Pego wrote:
dukehjsteve wrote:Oscar Pistorius = OJ Simpson


Hopefully with a different outcome.


You would think so....
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Re: Pistorius implicated in a murder

Postby DrJay » Sat Feb 16, 2013 8:07 am

polevaultpower wrote:
dukehjsteve wrote:Oscar Pistorius = OJ Simpson


Oh give me a break. OJ attempted to cover up his crimes and fled (more or less) from the police. As far as we can tell Oscar has been cooperative.


So Oscar is a "nice" murderer.
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Re: Pistorius implicated in a murder

Postby Pego » Sat Feb 16, 2013 9:02 am

polevaultpower wrote:he made an incredibly poor decision that cost an innocent girl her life


A "poor decision" in my vocabulary is making a wrong turn, oversalting an omelette, removing the mail from the mailbox in a downpour, telling my wife a sexist joke at a wrong time...Oscar Pistorius did not make a "poor decision", he murdered a defenseless young woman, seemingly in a fit of anger. I don't know if it was "premeditated" and it makes no difference to me. Sorry, Becca.
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Re: Pistorius implicated in a murder

Postby bijanc » Sat Feb 16, 2013 9:11 am

Op eds, essays, and term papers will abound, addressing the heretofore private sides of Steve McNair, Tiger Woods, Junior Seau, Mantei Te'o, and Oscar Pistorious. Not as famous, but just as tragic, the late KC Chiefs LB Jovan Belcher, who took his own life in the presence of his coach, after having killed his g.f.

Not putting them in the same category, but social and cultural critics will posit that elite jocks, like others in coveted positions, can live highly concealed double existences- Seau, Te'o and Pistorious were heroes to groups who identified w/ them.
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Re: Pistorius implicated in a murder

Postby user4 » Sat Feb 16, 2013 9:22 am

why is humankind today so incapable of employing their vast empirical knowledge base regarding human motives, experiences and actions when it comes to making inferences of these kinds. The evidence already shows that while he may be only at worst a heinous self centered murderer, at the very best he is a self absorbed pampered heartless thug guilty of manslaughter.

To understand this type of person, just walk down the dead end of his reasoning, take him at his word: He says he thought there was an intruder. This self proclaimed competent gun man, in the familiar settings of his own home does not make perfect positive identification of the criminal before taking that criminal out with much more than a few shots.

One could argue that a female at home in the middle of the night cowering under her bed or in a closet while she hears 3 male intruders gradually getting closer to finding her, would need to unload more than a few rounds through a door ... and those situations have happened.

But a grown male firing through a door to kill his girlfriend on valentines day. He is one of the biggest liars of the 21st century.


bijanc wrote:Not putting them in the same category, but social and cultural critics will posit that elite jocks, like others in coveted positions, can live highly concealed double existences- Seau, Te'o and Pistorious were heroes to groups who identified w/ them.


I realize that culture critics may not be civilized but that aside, putting Teo and Pistorious in the same category is ... ugh. I would argue, that putting Seau, a person that committed suicide, in the same category as Pistorious or OJ or Belcher is revolting.

This all makes me wonder if we are getting to the point where the "average" person is not capable of serving on a jury, they are so easily stripped of their own common sense by the bombardment of shuck and jive story tellers, elites, lawyers and media critics telling them that they cant think for themselves.
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Re: Pistorius implicated in a murder

Postby bijanc » Sat Feb 16, 2013 10:02 am

My point, and theirs (the hypothetcial columnists) is that fans, and in most cases media, do not know the Seau's and McNair's anywhere as well as we think. As public as we observers think their lives are, in this age of YouTube, Twitter, and cell phone cameras, all of the athletes I named had private demons about which we knew not.

I didn't compare their DEEDS.
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Re: Pistorius implicated in a murder

Postby ExCoastRanger » Sat Feb 16, 2013 10:35 am

polevaultpower wrote:I still have yet to see anything that indicates the charges of premeditated murder are warranted....


Don't know what the legal definition is in SA, but if the shooter had to stop to think, "Where's my gun?" and he had to retrieve it from somewhere, seek out his victim and fire multiple times, then there was probably some premeditation going on.
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Re: Pistorius implicated in a murder

Postby 18.99s » Sat Feb 16, 2013 10:59 am

polevaultpower wrote:It's really really horrible what happened, and even in the best case scenario for Oscar, he made an incredibly poor decision that cost an innocent girl her life.

In a best case scenario for him, there was somebody else who shot her and fled the scene, and he's able to prove it.

But comparing him to OJ seems unwarranted at this point.

If Pistorius shot her, comparing him to OJ is appropriate. There's really no plausible way to paint this as a mistake or accident.
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Re: Pistorius implicated in a murder

Postby jeremyp » Sat Feb 16, 2013 11:17 am

DrJay wrote:
polevaultpower wrote:
dukehjsteve wrote:Oscar Pistorius = OJ Simpson


Oh give me a break. OJ attempted to cover up his crimes and fled (more or less) from the police. As far as we can tell Oscar has been cooperative.


So Oscar is a "nice" murderer.

Yes and we shouldn't say anything not nice about the disabled. :wink:
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Re: Pistorius implicated in a murder

Postby odelltrclan » Sat Feb 16, 2013 11:37 am

user4 wrote:why is humankind today so incapable of employing their vast empirical knowledge base regarding human motives, experiences and actions when it comes to making inferences of these kinds.


Humankind has been wrong about many things on many occasions, including unjustly convicting someone of crimes they didn't commit.

Based upon all the posts you made you present yourself as someone, who, back different days would simply take the law into your own hands and execute a person immediately upon your own limited perceptions of what happened. Then have the audicity to lecture humans on behavior they should follow.

If Oscar is guilty . . you know what, they have him in custody. They have charged him. Every person is entitled to their day in court. If he is guilty, he is going to spend the rest of his life in jail, or, possibly, executed. Something that probably thrills you.

I am glad we have people who do not rush to judgment, take their time, and allow people the opportunity to defend themselves. Its far better than the days of lynching that you seem so eager to go back to.
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Re: Pistorius implicated in a murder

Postby mump boy » Sat Feb 16, 2013 11:49 am

odelltrclan wrote:
user4 wrote:why is humankind today so incapable of employing their vast empirical knowledge base regarding human motives, experiences and actions when it comes to making inferences of these kinds.


If he is guilty, he is going to spend the rest of his life in jail, or, possibly, executed. Something that probably thrills you.


SA haven't had the death penalty since '95

They are a civilised country these days
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Re: Pistorius implicated in a murder

Postby eldanielfire » Sat Feb 16, 2013 12:39 pm

polevaultpower wrote:
dukehjsteve wrote:Oscar Pistorius = OJ Simpson


Oh give me a break. OJ attempted to cover up his crimes and fled (more or less) from the police. As far as we can tell Oscar has been cooperative.

The latest report from South Africa (which yes, is just another unconfirmed media report) is that Oscar carried his dying girlfriend downstairs and tried to save her: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldne ... e-her.html

I still have yet to see anything that indicates the charges of premeditated murder are warranted.

It's really really horrible what happened, and even in the best case scenario for Oscar, he made an incredibly poor decision that cost an innocent girl her life. But comparing him to OJ seems unwarranted at this point.



There have been reports of an arguement before hand. So there is evidence, how strong it is will come out as the case progresses.


mump boy wrote:
odelltrclan wrote:
user4 wrote:why is humankind today so incapable of employing their vast empirical knowledge base regarding human motives, experiences and actions when it comes to making inferences of these kinds.


If he is guilty, he is going to spend the rest of his life in jail, or, possibly, executed. Something that probably thrills you.


SA haven't had the death penalty since '95

They are a civilised country these days


Given the high crime rates and especially violent crime rates, wide spread attacks on farmers, the need of anyone who can to live in gated communities, the masses of shanty towns on the edge of cities and the blatent and mass political corruption I'd hardly say civilised is how I'd describe South Africa exactly death penality or not. It headed to civilisation but has had a log stop in its journey.
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Re: Pistorius implicated in a murder

Postby kuha » Sat Feb 16, 2013 12:47 pm

Pego wrote:
polevaultpower wrote:he made an incredibly poor decision that cost an innocent girl her life


A "poor decision" in my vocabulary is making a wrong turn, oversalting an omelette, removing the mail from the mailbox in a downpour, telling my wife a sexist joke at a wrong time...Oscar Pistorius did not make a "poor decision", he murdered a defenseless young woman, seemingly in a fit of anger. I don't know if it was "premeditated" and it makes no difference to me. Sorry, Becca.


Absolutely. In this context, the words "incredibly poor decision" are just astoundingly offensive and absurd.
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Re: Pistorius implicated in a murder

Postby eldanielfire » Sat Feb 16, 2013 12:53 pm

kuha wrote:
Pego wrote:
polevaultpower wrote:he made an incredibly poor decision that cost an innocent girl her life


A "poor decision" in my vocabulary is making a wrong turn, oversalting an omelette, removing the mail from the mailbox in a downpour, telling my wife a sexist joke at a wrong time...Oscar Pistorius did not make a "poor decision", he murdered a defenseless young woman, seemingly in a fit of anger. I don't know if it was "premeditated" and it makes no difference to me. Sorry, Becca.


Absolutely. In this context, the words "incredibly poor decision" are just astoundingly offensive and absurd.



I can't argue with this. Premeditated or not a person has been killed and almost certainly murdered, poor decision isn't even close to accurately or fairly describing what happened even without all the facts.
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Re: Pistorius implicated in a murder

Postby user4 » Sat Feb 16, 2013 3:01 pm

odelltrclan wrote:
user4 wrote:why is humankind today so incapable of employing their vast empirical knowledge base regarding human motives, experiences and actions when it comes to making inferences of these kinds.


If Oscar is guilty . . you know what, they have him in custody. They have charged him. Every person is entitled to their day in court. If he is guilty, he is going to spend the rest of his life in jail, or, possibly, executed. Something that probably thrills you.

I am glad we have people who do not rush to judgment, take their time, and allow people the opportunity to defend themselves. Its far better than the days of lynching that you seem so eager to go back to.


The pendulum of justice swings in society, it has swung in one direction for just a bit too long and the results are not good. I welcome it swinging back a hair so that people that are guilty do not go free. I think we all vent on forums such as this and I have vented a bit, but yes it is true what you say : "If he is guilty, he is going to spend the rest of his life in jail, or, possibly, executed. Something that probably thrills you." Because the alternative of a selfish vile narcissist getting away with murder makes my blood boil.
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Re: Pistorius implicated in a murder

Postby user4 » Sat Feb 16, 2013 3:10 pm

mump boy wrote:
odelltrclan wrote:
user4 wrote:why is humankind today so incapable of employing their vast empirical knowledge base regarding human motives, experiences and actions when it comes to making inferences of these kinds.


If he is guilty, he is going to spend the rest of his life in jail, or, possibly, executed. Something that probably thrills you.


SA haven't had the death penalty since '95

They are a civilised country these days


The judgement that a "civilized country" is one that does not have a death penalty is hard to understand. I would suggest that society's/community's/country's that exhibit low rape, murder, assault, robbery rates are better indicators of a civil society.

There are countless reasons why a culture may choose to have or not have a death penalty, none of them seem to me to rule out the ability of a country to have equal liberty for its people and allow them to freely move about without any fear of harm or death or robbery or rape. When those crimes are committed by those calling themselves a government it is a sign of total chaos.

There are some countries that apply the death penalty to crimes that we in the west would deem uncivilized. That is understandable and I agree. But it does not follow that all societies that execute murderers are uncivilized, it can be quite the opposite.
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Re: Pistorius implicated in a murder

Postby iain » Sat Feb 16, 2013 3:40 pm

User4, while the factors you point out are much better indicators, mump does have a point. Although most people support the death penalty, you cannot argue that it is much more 'civilised' not to have it.
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Re: Pistorius implicated in a murder

Postby Cooter Brown » Sat Feb 16, 2013 6:41 pm

Oscar needs to prepare his anus. He's gonna be popular in prison.

Beeld reports that police had been called to Pistorius's house two hours before the shooting, after neighbors complained of a loud argument between him and Steenkamp.

police believe that Steenkamp was sitting "on the lavatory"—bathroom sink—when Pistorius shot her through the bathroom door

http://deadspin.com/5984744/report-oscar-pistorius-attempted-to-revive-reeva-steenkamp-who-was-sitting-on-the-bathroom-sink-when-shot?utm_campaign=socialflow_deadspin_twitter&utm_source=deadspin_twitter&utm_medium=socialflow

http://deadspin.com/5984511/?utm_campaign=socialflow_deadspin_twitter&utm_source=deadspin_twitter&utm_medium=socialflow
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Re: Pistorius implicated in a murder

Postby Brian » Sat Feb 16, 2013 8:47 pm

Between the sad goings-on with Pistorius and Favor-Hamilton, et al, the past few months, I find myself yearning for a near future when athletes are only making news on the track, not off it.
.
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Re: Pistorius implicated in a murder

Postby mump boy » Sun Feb 17, 2013 1:50 am

user4 wrote:
mump boy wrote:
odelltrclan wrote:
user4 wrote:why is humankind today so incapable of employing their vast empirical knowledge base regarding human motives, experiences and actions when it comes to making inferences of these kinds.


If he is guilty, he is going to spend the rest of his life in jail, or, possibly, executed. Something that probably thrills you.


SA haven't had the death penalty since '95

They are a civilised country these days


The judgement that a "civilized country" is one that does not have a death penalty is hard to understand. I would suggest that society's/community's/country's that exhibit low rape, murder, assault, robbery rates are better indicators of a civil society.

But it does not follow that all societies that execute murderers are uncivilized, it can be quite the opposite.


My comment was obviously facetious, having no death penalty and low crime rates are not mutually exclusive, quite the opposite and any country that thinks killing of it's own citizens, in the name of justice, is appropriate is inherently uncivilised.
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Re: Pistorius implicated in a murder

Postby Trackrunner » Sun Feb 17, 2013 4:07 am

Bloodied cricket bat 'found' at Pistorius home

Police sources close to the investigation told South Africa's independent City Press newspaper that Steenkamp's skull had been "crushed".Police are investigating whether the bat was used to assault Steenkamp, who was shot four times in the early hours of Thursday, or if she used it to defend herself.

"The suspicion is that the first shot, in the bedroom, hit her in the hip. She then ran and hid herself in the toilet... He fire three more shots," a police source told City Press.

The paper said he could have experienced "roid rage", aggressive behaviour linked to taking large doses of steroids, describing the case against Pistorius as "rock-solid".

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/ar ... e2d4d2.751



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Uhm I'd like to hear some alternative theories about what happened that night that would account for a bloodied cricket bat, bashed in skull and four gunshots to the body. I wait patiently. Roid Rage is something I had posited on day 1.
Trackrunner
 
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