A Very Bad Morning For Lance


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Re: A Very Bad Morning For Lance

Postby kuha » Mon Oct 22, 2012 2:21 pm

gh wrote:Wouldn't you say that nailing Armstrong will do more to clean up cycling than any 10 (100?) other busts combined?


For me, the answer is no. Why should it? However, I AM impressed that they're not "reassigning" the medals, but simply leaving first place empty. THAT is every bit as important as dismembering Armstrong, since it clearly acknowledges that the problem permeated the entire upper layer of the sport. It is the systemic nature of the issue that has always been my real concern.

For GH: Why are you not pushing for the official testing of those 1984 samples and the publication of the results? And the re-testing of any other significant holding of "old" championship samples? Isn't more truth-telling better than less here, if we want to scare individual sports "straight"?
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Re: A Very Bad Morning For Lance

Postby Pego » Mon Oct 22, 2012 3:09 pm

gh wrote:Wouldn't you say that nailing Armstrong will do more to clean up cycling than any 10 (100?) other busts combined?


Perhaps, I don't know. What I find personally repulsive is a cop that pulls a red sports car out of a speeding convoy of numerous cars and trucks.
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Re: A Very Bad Morning For Lance

Postby odelltrclan » Mon Oct 22, 2012 3:17 pm

Pego wrote:
gh wrote:Wouldn't you say that nailing Armstrong will do more to clean up cycling than any 10 (100?) other busts combined?


Perhaps, I don't know. What I find personally repulsive is a cop that pulls a red sports car out of a speeding convoy of numerous cars and trucks.


So is that what you drive? :wink:
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Re: A Very Bad Morning For Lance

Postby Pego » Mon Oct 22, 2012 3:36 pm

odelltrclan wrote:
Pego wrote:
gh wrote:Wouldn't you say that nailing Armstrong will do more to clean up cycling than any 10 (100?) other busts combined?


Perhaps, I don't know. What I find personally repulsive is a cop that pulls a red sports car out of a speeding convoy of numerous cars and trucks.


So is that what you drive? :wink:


A Buick Enclave. Love it :D .
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Re: A Very Bad Morning For Lance

Postby jazzcyclist » Mon Oct 22, 2012 3:50 pm

gh wrote:Of course he was singled out, much in the same way that Victor Conte was. I'm happy to see that unlike regular drug-war law enforcement, where the mastermind criminals are allowed to plea-bargain their way out of things while their minions on the street draw harsh sentences, that USADA is actually making a habit out of going straight for the head, rather than just picking off low-hanging fruit.

I somewhat agree with your analogy, but I don't view Armstrong as one of the mastermind criminals like Conte was. In cycling I view guys like Eufemiano Fuentes and Michele Ferrari as the criminal masterminds. Armstrong was just a good customer, and going after him is like the DEA going after a drug addict, not a drug pusher.
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Re: A Very Bad Morning For Lance

Postby DrJay » Mon Oct 22, 2012 5:34 pm

jazzcyclist wrote:
gh wrote:Of course he was singled out, much in the same way that Victor Conte was. I'm happy to see that unlike regular drug-war law enforcement, where the mastermind criminals are allowed to plea-bargain their way out of things while their minions on the street draw harsh sentences, that USADA is actually making a habit out of going straight for the head, rather than just picking off low-hanging fruit.

I somewhat agree with your analogy, but I don't view Armstrong as one of the mastermind criminals like Conte was. In cycling I view guys like Eufemiano Fuentes and Michele Ferrari as the criminal masterminds. Armstrong was just a good customer, and going after him is like the DEA going after a drug addict, not a drug pusher.


But who had the power? In the Mexican drug wars, aren't the masterminds and the guys with all the power one and the same? In this story, it sounds like Armstrong had a lot more power than the Ferraris, and taking down the powerful guys may be what it's about.
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Re: A Very Bad Morning For Lance

Postby DrJay » Mon Oct 22, 2012 5:38 pm

Pego wrote:
gh wrote:Wouldn't you say that nailing Armstrong will do more to clean up cycling than any 10 (100?) other busts combined?


Perhaps, I don't know. What I find personally repulsive is a cop that pulls a red sports car out of a speeding convoy of numerous cars and trucks.


The application of justice here is incredibly uneven, but since Armstrong probably won't go to prison, it doesn't bother me as much as in cases where some that are guilty go to the big house while others do not. Lance will never want for food, shelter, a nice car, a plasma TV, friends, women, and groupies.
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Re: A Very Bad Morning For Lance

Postby 26mi235 » Mon Oct 22, 2012 9:05 pm

Armstrong made a lot of money for a large number of people in cycling, including the UCI.

I do have some reservations on the USADA. One of the points that they repeatedly claim is that he failed a drug test in 2001 and again in 2002. The guy who was in charge of that is absolutely beyond reproach and he said that he will never testify that it was a positive test, just one that drew attention going into the grey area. This very point is one where I had major doubts about what they really had, because if they kept trotting out that as one of their main points then it was possible that they did not have much.
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Re: A Very Bad Morning For Lance

Postby tandfman » Tue Oct 23, 2012 3:21 am

guru wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote:Remember, it was the FBI that did the heavy lifting in this investigation and then just handed over their files, which included all the sworn testimony, to USADA.

Simply not true. Everything in the USADA report was collected by USADA

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/sports/! ... cision.pdf

From Section I: Summary Of Reasoned Decision

USADA wrote:None of the evidence USADA summarizes in this Reasoned Decision was obtained from the United States federal law enforcement investigation involving Mr. Armstrong. After the announcement by U.S. District Attorney Andre Birotte on February 3, 2012, that he was discontinuing the criminal investigation of Armstrong’s conduct, USADA formally requested copies of non-grand jury evidence from the case. However, no documents have been received to date. As a result, none of the evidence assembled by USADA has come from federal law enforcement.

That may be but . . .
Despite his findings not being used in the federal court case against the American, who has always vehemently denied doping, the evidence gleaned did not go to waste.

It found its way to the United States Anti-Doping Agency (USADA), whose president Travis Tygart launched a similar, single-minded quest for the truth that would lead to the downfall of the world's most celebrated cyclist.. . . .Although the USADA will take much of the credit, UCI president Pat McQuaid believes Novitzky and the threat of criminal proceedings against many of those who testified against Armstrong was key.

http://www.supersport.com/cycling/inter ... strong_UCI
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Re: A Very Bad Morning For Lance

Postby jazzcyclist » Tue Oct 23, 2012 5:18 am

tandfman wrote:That may be but . . .
Despite his findings not being used in the federal court case against the American, who has always vehemently denied doping, the evidence gleaned did not go to waste.

It found its way to the United States Anti-Doping Agency (USADA), whose president Travis Tygart launched a similar, single-minded quest for the truth that would lead to the downfall of the world's most celebrated cyclist.. . . .Although the USADA will take much of the credit, UCI president Pat McQuaid believes Novitzky and the threat of criminal proceedings against many of those who testified against Armstrong was key.

http://www.supersport.com/cycling/inter ... strong_UCI

That's kind of what I suspected. Here are the key quotes from McQuaid:
"We tested Armstrong over 200 times and he was always negative, we tested the other riders many times and they were negative. Not only the UCI, but also USADA," McQuaid told AFP.

"Bear in mind that this report has not emerged thanks to a UCI or USADA investigation. It's Jeff Novitzky, a federal investigator, who collected all that information for the file.

I am grateful to USADA for what they have achieved. But they haven't achieved any more than the UCI could have achieved on their own," he said.

"They needed the support of the federal agents to do it, and that's evident."

As I said earlier, the FBI did all the heavy lifting. Here's David Millar's take on the importance of law enforcement in cleaning up the sport.
The downfall of Lance Armstrong has opened the world’s eyes up to what most of us within the sport knew, if not in the detail that the USADA file has revealed, that to win the Tour de France and many other big races was impossible without doping for a certain period of time. Of course races were won by clean riders, and many clean riders achieved remarkable careers, especially in hindsight, without doping, but the bottom line is that doping was rife and necessary to be the best.

Who is responsible for this? Most of us involved in professional cycling were in some way or another, it became a way of life. I’d hoped the Festina Affair would force change but the problem was too deeply embedded to be changed by one event.

It took several changes to take place. First came the anti-doping controls, they became more advanced, the drugs that had been previously undetectable became detectable.

Doping became a criminal offence in many European countries allowing for criminal investigations to delve deeper than any anti-doping agency or cycling governing body ever could; it was a criminal investigation that discovered my history of doping.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/open-le ... 0&ns_fee=0
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Re: A Very Bad Morning For Lance

Postby tandfman » Tue Oct 23, 2012 5:21 am

Meanwhile, Jason Gay of the Wall Street Journal has interviewed the new winner of those 7 Tours de France.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... 56816.html

:)
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Re: A Very Bad Morning For Lance

Postby jazzcyclist » Tue Oct 23, 2012 6:24 am

Here is the top 15 of the final GC classification of the 2000 Tour de France:

1.Lance Armstrong (US Postal): 92hr 33min 8sec USADA Report
2.Jan Ullrich (Telekom) @ 6min 2sec Operacion Puerto
3.Joseba Beloki (Festina) @ 10min 4sec Operacion Puerto
4.Christophe Moreau (Festina) @ 10min 34sec Festina Affair
5.Roberto Heras (Kelme) @ 11min 50sec Tested positive & suspended
6.Richard Virenque (Polti)@ 13min 26sec Festina Affair
7.Santiago Botero (Kelme)@ 14min 18sec Kelme Scandal
8.Fernando Escartin (Kelme)@ 17min 21sec Kelme Scandal
9.Francisco Mancebo (Banesto)@ 18min 9sec Tested positive & suspended
10.Daniele Nardello (Mapei)@ 18min 25sec T-Mobile Scandal
11.Manuel Beltrán (Mapei)@ 21min 11sec Tested positive & suspended
12.Pascal Hervé (Polti)@ 23min 13sec Tested positive, Festina Affair
13.Javier Ochoa (Kelme)@ 25min Kelme Scandal
14.Felix Garcia-Casas (Festina)@ 32min 4sec Festina Affair
15.Alexandre Vinokourov (Telekom) @ 32min 26sec Tested positive & suspended, T-Mobile scandal
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Re: A Very Bad Morning For Lance

Postby Conor Dary » Tue Oct 23, 2012 10:26 am

Exactly. By the way, I suspect the Tour on tv is dead very soon. I can't believe NBC wants to get involved with that anymore. And American cycling will soon be a thing of the past. I am sure LeMond is happy.
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Re: A Very Bad Morning For Lance

Postby kuha » Tue Oct 23, 2012 11:46 am

Conor Dary wrote:I suspect the Tour on tv is dead very soon. I can't believe NBC wants to get involved with that anymore.


You'd really have to think so. The real story here isn't or at least shouldn't be Armstrong--it's what looks to be a total meltdown of credibility in the event itself. Which WAS the key issue all along.

Maybe we'll now see the Tour of Nebraska on TV.
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Re: A Very Bad Morning For Lance

Postby gh » Tue Oct 23, 2012 11:54 am

I've probably related this bit before, but i stopped in Paris on the way to Barcelona in '92. Wandered over from my hotel to the Champs d'Elysses to find a nice little sidewalk cafe for a morning beverage and was most distressed to find everywhere cordoned off and having to take very long walk around. oh, it was tour de france finish day!

At any rate, after the race and the guys were parading up and down the road I was fairly close to them and the first thing that struck me was that I hadn't seen faces that drawn, with eyeballs that sunken in the head since the Bataan Death March. I was stunned at how wasted they all looked.

I was even more stunned when the next weekend I picked up a copy of L'Équipe in Barcelona and noticed that everybody was up and hammering again at the tour-de-something-else.

I decided then and there that either these guys were all supermen, or......
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Re: A Very Bad Morning For Lance

Postby odelltrclan » Tue Oct 23, 2012 12:24 pm

Conor Dary wrote:And American cycling will soon be a thing of the past. I am sure LeMond is happy.


Sorry, but that is pretty lame!
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Re: A Very Bad Morning For Lance

Postby jazzcyclist » Wed Oct 24, 2012 10:28 am

Now the Boston and New York Marathons are jumping in on the fun.
Lance Armstrong’s name is likely to be expunged from the results of the New York City and Boston marathons, in addition to the Tour de France.

Officials from both NYC and Boston races said they expect to follow decisions by the U.S. Anti-Doping Agency and the International Cycling Union to ban Amstrong from competition and strip him of his seven Tour de France titles. However, both marathons are likely to wait until any appeals have taken place. Armstrong had been banned in late summer from running in the Chicago Marathon as well as the NYC race; those and the Boston race are governed by USA Track and Field rules.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/ear ... sults-too/
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Re: A Very Bad Morning For Lance

Postby 26mi235 » Wed Oct 24, 2012 8:14 pm

Conor Dary wrote:Exactly. By the way, I suspect the Tour on tv is dead very soon. I can't believe NBC wants to get involved with that anymore. And American cycling will soon be a thing of the past. I am sure LeMond is happy.


I doubt it, although the amount that they will have to pay will likely drop. Jazz, what is your opinion as the closest observer of the sport on this board?
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Re: A Very Bad Morning For Lance

Postby odelltrclan » Wed Oct 24, 2012 8:31 pm

How long before Pat McQuaid is gone. Many calling for his withdrawal. This from Mr. Lemond tonight.

https://www.facebook.com/greglemond?ref=ts&fref=ts
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Re: A Very Bad Morning For Lance

Postby DrJay » Thu Oct 25, 2012 6:44 am

jazzcyclist wrote:Now the Boston and New York Marathons are jumping in on the fun.
Lance Armstrong’s name is likely to be expunged from the results of the New York City and Boston marathons, in addition to the Tour de France.
/


Now that's getting a little absurd. Maybe next they'll expunge his name from all print and digital media for the last 20 years, like in Orwell's 1984.
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Re: A Very Bad Morning For Lance

Postby Conor Dary » Thu Oct 25, 2012 6:58 am

DrJay wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote:Now the Boston and New York Marathons are jumping in on the fun.
Lance Armstrong’s name is likely to be expunged from the results of the New York City and Boston marathons, in addition to the Tour de France.
/


Now that's getting a little absurd. Maybe next they'll expunge his name from all print and digital media for the last 20 years, like in Orwell's 1984.


All the boobs in authority trying to prove who is the most righteous. Puritans Unite!
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Re: A Very Bad Morning For Lance

Postby jazzcyclist » Thu Oct 25, 2012 10:47 am

Eddie Merckx weighs in.
Commenting after the UCI's release earlier in the week, Merckx said: "I'm sick, only for my sport. I met Lance many times, he never told me about doping, physicians or other things. He did not need to report to me, it was his problem but I fell into the trap. I am amazed at him, especially after what he went through." he told Le Soir.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/merckx- ... -armstrong

Is he for real or is he doing his best Inspector Renault impression?
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Re: A Very Bad Morning For Lance

Postby Conor Dary » Thu Oct 25, 2012 10:57 am

jazzcyclist wrote:Eddie Merckx weighs in.
Commenting after the UCI's release earlier in the week, Merckx said: "I'm sick, only for my sport. I met Lance many times, he never told me about doping, physicians or other things. He did not need to report to me, it was his problem but I fell into the trap. I am amazed at him, especially after what he went through." he told Le Soir.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/merckx- ... -armstrong

Is he for real or is he doing his best Inspector Renault impression?


Shocked, shocked!! Yea, pretty moronic. All Armstrong's fault. The Tour is now the equivalent of a Child's Birthday Party only dirtied by LA.

    General Ripper: Do you realize that in addition to fluoridating water, why, there are studies underway to fluoridate salt, flour, fruit juices, soup, sugar, milk, ice cream? Ice cream, Mandrake? Children's ice cream!...You know when fluoridation began?...1946. 1946, Mandrake. How does that coincide with your post-war Commie conspiracy, huh? It's incredibly obvious, isn't it? A foreign substance is introduced into our precious bodily fluids without the knowledge of the individual, and certainly without any choice. That's the way your hard-core Commie works. I first became aware of it, Mandrake, during the physical act of love...Yes, a profound sense of fatigue, a feeling of emptiness followed. Luckily I was able to interpret these feelings correctly. Loss of essence. I can assure you it has not recurred, Mandrake. Women...women sense my power, and they seek the life essence. I do not avoid women, Mandrake...but I do deny them my essence.
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Re: A Very Bad Morning For Lance

Postby DrJay » Thu Oct 25, 2012 12:29 pm

P O E
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Re: A Very Bad Morning For Lance

Postby guru » Thu Oct 25, 2012 3:24 pm

Betsy Andreu on NBC's Rock Center tonight.

http://rockcenter.nbcnews.com/_news/201 ... drugs?lite
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Re: A Very Bad Morning For Lance

Postby jazzcyclist » Thu Oct 25, 2012 3:49 pm

DrJay wrote:P O E

:? :?:
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Re: A Very Bad Morning For Lance

Postby DrJay » Thu Oct 25, 2012 5:06 pm

jazzcyclist wrote:
DrJay wrote:P O E

:? :?:


Anybody? :-)
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Re: A Very Bad Morning For Lance

Postby bambam » Thu Oct 25, 2012 6:46 pm

DrJay wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote:
DrJay wrote:P O E

:? :?:


Anybody? :-)


POE = EPO, the nickname the cyclists used for it, or Edgar
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Re: A Very Bad Morning For Lance

Postby bambam » Thu Oct 25, 2012 6:47 pm

jazzcyclist wrote:Eddie Merckx weighs in.
Commenting after the UCI's release earlier in the week, Merckx said: "I'm sick, only for my sport. I met Lance many times, he never told me about doping, physicians or other things. He did not need to report to me, it was his problem but I fell into the trap. I am amazed at him, especially after what he went through." he told Le Soir.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/merckx- ... -armstrong

Is he for real or is he doing his best Inspector Renault impression?


Although Merckx is undeniably the greatest cyclist ever, he did get popped for doping 2-3 times during his career, even in the era in which there was very little testing.
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Re: A Very Bad Morning For Lance

Postby guru » Thu Oct 25, 2012 7:08 pm

Terrific stuff on Rock Center tonight. Emma O'Reilly was particularly compelling.

It was also interesting to watch Andreu call interviewer Harry Smith onto the carpet as one of Armstrong's media sycophants.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-500461_162- ... ColumnArea


Credit to Smith and NBC for not cutting those comments from the piece.
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Re: A Very Bad Morning For Lance

Postby DrJay » Thu Oct 25, 2012 8:14 pm

bambam wrote:
DrJay wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote:
DrJay wrote:P O E

:? :?:


Anybody?


POE = EPO, the nickname the cyclists used for it, or Edgar


Wrong answer, Dookie! :) But a good try. Conor posted a quote (rant) from Gen. Jack Ripper from Dr. Strangelove. Minutes later, after the crazed General offs himself, Mandrake is puzzling over a piece of paper with various permutations of P O E on it (P O E , O P E, Peace On Earth, On Earth Peace, etc) figuring the recall code must be some variation of those three letters.
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Re: A Very Bad Morning For Lance

Postby dukehjsteve » Fri Oct 26, 2012 4:33 am

Perhaps my all-time favorite movie. So many great lines, too many to repeat here !
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Re: A Very Bad Morning For Lance

Postby Conor Dary » Fri Oct 26, 2012 6:54 am

Thanks to Dr. Jay for pointing out the obvious and the Purity Of Essence of it all. :D

And I agree with the dukester, it is a great movie.
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Re: A Very Bad Morning For Lance

Postby KDFINE » Fri Oct 26, 2012 7:13 am

POE = Purity Of Essence.
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Re: A Very Bad Morning For Lance

Postby j-a-m » Fri Oct 26, 2012 7:45 am

Just stumbled upon the use of "to Live Strong" as a synonym for "to use PEDs"; interesting to see if that's gonna catch on ...
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Re: A Very Bad Morning For Lance

Postby tandfman » Fri Oct 26, 2012 2:07 pm

tandfman wrote:
bambam wrote:Everyone will be asking for their money back, and to keep it he will end up having to fork it over to the lawyers instead. Why I think he will be headed for a new Chapter in his life, so to speak.

I assume you mean Chapter 7.

That wouldn't surprise me at all.

It turns out that Mr. Armstrong has salted away a good amount of money and may be able to fend off bankruptcy in spite of these actual and potential claims against him.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/27/your- ... arges.html
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Re: A Very Bad Morning For Lance

Postby odelltrclan » Fri Oct 26, 2012 2:30 pm

tandfman wrote:
tandfman wrote:
bambam wrote:Everyone will be asking for their money back, and to keep it he will end up having to fork it over to the lawyers instead. Why I think he will be headed for a new Chapter in his life, so to speak.

I assume you mean Chapter 7.

That wouldn't surprise me at all.

It turns out that Mr. Armstrong has salted away a good amount of money and may be able to fend off bankruptcy in spite of these actual and potential claims against him.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/27/your- ... arges.html


I have read other reports that put his net worth at about $25,000,000 or so. Who knows how accurate this information is. He probably will remain rich. But, I think he is still open to lawsuits from the likes of Emma O'Reilly, Betsy Andreu, and Greg Lemond (should they think about going that route) and others he has bullied and vilified in press, for defamation of character, etc. He also may be subject to punitive damages as well from some of these lawsuits, and who knows how much (if they happen) they might be.
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Re: A Very Bad Morning For Lance

Postby guru » Fri Jan 04, 2013 10:02 pm

Ok, NOW it's time to start worrying about the Apocalypse being upon us...

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/05/sport ... ml?hp&_r=0


Would have loved to be a fly on the wall at that Tygart/Armstrong sit-down
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Re: A Very Bad Morning For Lance

Postby tandfman » Sat Jan 05, 2013 5:41 am

The Onion ran this story more than 2 years ago:

http://www.theonion.com/articles/lance- ... but,17973/

Of course, it was a spoof at the time.
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Re: A Very Bad Morning For Lance

Postby gh » Sun Jan 06, 2013 10:05 am

from his column this morning, Scott Ostler's "Knucklehead Of The Week"

<<Knucklehead of the week: Lance Armstrong
Reportedly, Armstrong is considering a confession of his doping sins.
What, he's weary of the deception? He's guilt-stricken for all that cheating? He wants to be a role model for contrition and redemption?
Nah. Lance wants to get cleared so he can return to competitive sports. He wants to wipe away years of selfish cheating with a self-serving apology.
It will have to be a hell of an apology to make folks forget the self-righteous pit bull, denouncing and threatening doubters and accusers.
Proposed: a televised debate between Juicer Pit Bull Lance and Seen-the-Light Lance.>>


Read more: http://www.sfgate.com/sports/ostler/art ... z2HDgoy700
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