A few pieces of Silver


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A few pieces of Silver

Postby preston » Tue Aug 14, 2012 7:16 am

The following exchange between gh, marknhj and me, got me thinking about one of the more interesting articles I've ever read about the Olympics. It's about choices you make in the heat of the moment. I really don't want to rehash the Tarmoh incident too much but sometimes decisions are made that don't make sense to outsiders or over time. Again, I think you will enjoy the article (would be great to learn the decision individual posters would have made). It was written 20 years ago - 20 years AFTER the incident: the 1972 Gold medal Basketball game. An excerpt is below the quoted posts.

gh wrote:
marknhj wrote:
preston wrote:Tarmoh's attitude was no different to me than Olympic Champion at the '92 Olympics, Marie Jose Perec in Sydney. Unexplainable, but NOT the antithesis of an Olympic competitor. I MIGHT agree with you if she had never been called 3rd first, but when everyone told her she had been cheated (because it was Allyson Felix), I think she just felt it was unfair.

I'm guilty of a poor choice of words so let me re-phrase: Tarmoh's inexplicable decision suggests she does not have the inner steel so typical of 99.9% of Olympic competitors.

I pretty much agree. If it was indeed her decision, it is inexplicable. So inexplicable in fact that I keep wondering how much there is to the statement that she felt "coerced" or words to that effect.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/ ... MAG1003894
...The 12 men of the U.S. team meet in a room in the Olympic Village. Their protest to FIBA's Jury of Appeal has been dismissed by a 3-2 vote—three Communist-bloc votes against. One of the 12 men is a recent university graduate; all of the rest are still students in an era in which young people are locking arms and marching against the war in Vietnam, against racism, against authority, standing up and sitting in for Truth and Justice. Now the 12 men must decide whether they will bow to authority, mount the pedestal and accept The Lie. They look at one another. Not me. Not me. Not me. Soviets can wink, Cubans can shuffle their feet, East Germans can lower their eyes and nod. But not Americans. Not for any price. That is the principle the 12 men believe they are standing up for the next day, when they boycott the awards ceremony and refuse their medals—the only athletes in Olympic history, it is believed, to have done so.
Last edited by preston on Tue Aug 14, 2012 7:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A few pieces of Silver

Postby preston » Tue Aug 14, 2012 7:17 am

continued...
Life picks them up and sweeps them along. Ten of the 12 enter the NBA as first-round picks. There are games to play, checks to cash, women to meet. Now and then, that night in Munich comes back to them unexpectedly, the greatest collision of joy and despair in their lives. Some of them are shocked to find themselves weeping. But most of the time they never think of it at all.

Ten years after the game, a letter arrives at the homes of most of the 12 men. It's from USA Basketball, the amateur sport's governing body in America. Are they ready to let go of the principle yet? Will they take the medals now? Officials are even considering staging a banquet in Los Angeles during the '84 Summer Games, a reunion of the 12 men to accept the silver. "It's up to the kids, and we support them in whatever they choose," says Bill Wall, USA Basketball's executive director. "We all know we got screwed. But I wish they would accept it and put it behind us."

There is one catch, the letter explains. Either all of them get the medals—or none of them does. The International Olympic Committee doesn't want seven men accepting medals while five holdouts howl to the press, reviving all the bitterness. The vote, like a jury's determination of guilt, must be unanimous. The verdict comes back: no medals.

Four more years pass. It's 1986. The Seoul Olympics are coming. The letters arrive in the 12 men's mailboxes again. Are they ready now? Have they softened? The verdict comes back: no medals.

The 20th anniversary approaches. All but one of the players have turned 40. Some are beginning to pause and catch their breath, to look back and understand how that night in Munich fits into the making of their lives. Two of them are balding. One's selling cars, one's selling sneakers, one's selling insurance. One's a U.S. congressman, for god's sake. All but two have children.

Soon it will come again. The letter. The question. To some of them, it is the devil—patient, persistent, seducing them every four years with images of others bending to receive medals as the flags go up and the anthems play and the throats tremble, whispering to them to sell their souls for a piece of silver, waiting for them to weaken.

But would it be weakness, would it be selling? Some of them aren't so sure. Their peers are backing away from lines they drew in the dust during college days. Their friends are sacrificing old principles in increments, in privacy, pointing to children or careers when they need to explain it to themselves. Shouldn't they?


How do you vote?
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Re: A few pieces of Silver

Postby Daisy » Tue Aug 14, 2012 7:28 am

They are defined by rejecting their medals. Why sell out now? I'd vote to reject the medals.
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Re: A few pieces of Silver

Postby Marlow » Tue Aug 14, 2012 7:31 am

The '72 incident was no-win (pun?) forever. It's the ultimate poor sportsmanship to be a bad loser and not accept your placing (and whatever medal/trophy comes with it). We occasionally have kids at the State meet that think they were 'done wrong' and don't show up at the medal ceremony, and heaven help them if they're one of mine.

But . . . if you KNOW (that is paramount!) you were cheated, refusal to acknowledge the outcome, as a matter of principle, is a badge of honor. Refusing to be a party to the travesty is a mark of character.

The '72 case SEEMS apparent, but there's no proof of collusion, so now they're stuck. You have to go by individual choice. If you refuse the medal, be prepared to be defined (ill or good) by that action. If you can live with, do what ya gotta do.
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Re: A few pieces of Silver

Postby preston » Tue Aug 14, 2012 7:37 am

Marlow wrote:...The '72 case SEEMS apparent, but there's no proof of collusion, so now they're stuck. You have to go by individual choice...
thanks for the answers...however, if you have the time please read the article, what I provided is an excerpt. The journalist interviews all the men and though it was reported that the decisions were unanimous, it turns out that they were anything but. The Postscript is particularly illuminating about the "principle" of these men.

note: another reason this got a lot of play over the last 2 weeks is that one of the players is Doug Collins, new coach of the Philadelphia 76ers and the analyst for 2012 Olympic basketball.
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Re: A few pieces of Silver

Postby Marlow » Tue Aug 14, 2012 8:28 am

preston wrote:thanks for the answers...however, if you have the time please read the article, what I provided is an excerpt.

You want a LOT for your nickel - it's a LONG article, but I did read it (you asked 'please' :D ).
I return to the idea that each of is defined by our own actions, and we SHOULD do what we individually believe in. If that's against the 'world' or our 'teammates' (how sad was that one response that he played only for himself? :( ), then so be it. If you can't be true to yourself, you have little value to anyone else. I 'respect' their informed decisions, even if I disagree with some.

If I had been on the team (there's a laugh; I sukkkk at Bball), I imagine I would have gone with the group and refused it. If I did back then, I'd continue to now, even as I realize it may make continue to look like a sore loser. Rereading the 'facts' of the case, it's pretty evident that there are legitimate grounds to not 'accept' the outcome. Once in the Navy I stood on principle, against the orders of my immediate superior. Luckily I was vindicated when my superior's superior agreed with me (obviously it was not in a combat situation). That could have gone way south, way fast.
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Re: A few pieces of Silver

Postby mump boy » Tue Aug 14, 2012 8:52 am

They should have accepted them at the time, they lost !! USA don't have a devine right to win everything.

There has been some fo the most egregious decision made in boxing but Roy Jones Jnr stood on the medal rostrum and accepted his ridiculous silver like a gentleman. He didn't make a show of himself by acting like a spoilt child.

What this has to do with Tarmoh i have no idea but she needs to quit with the whining as well. She made the decision to cut off her nose to spite her face and now she has to live with it
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Re: A few pieces of Silver

Postby Daisy » Tue Aug 14, 2012 8:54 am

mump boy wrote:They should have accepted them at the time, they lost !!

They didn't, that's the point.

In the same way that Heidler DID throw 77.12m, even though for a while it looked like she had lost that throw. Would you have told her to accept that?
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Re: A few pieces of Silver

Postby lonewolf » Tue Aug 14, 2012 10:26 am

Anyone who saw that game live in 1972 knows the USA was screwed out of the victory.

I has nothing to do with "manning up" or being a good sport or gracious loser. The USA did not lose! They won the game twice! The ref kept putting time back on the clock until Russia scored.
Henry Iba, one the most respected basketball coaches in history, was floundering about completely confused as to what was happening, as were everyone else. I could not comprehend at the time, or since, why he did not refuse to put his team back on the floor until they sorted out the language barrier and the circumstances.
The team was right to refuse the silver then and to continue to refuse to accept it. Nor, can I understand why the Olympic Committee continues to offer it and encourage acceptance every ten years.
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Re: A few pieces of Silver

Postby Pego » Tue Aug 14, 2012 1:10 pm

lonewolf wrote:The ref kept putting time back on the clock until Russia scored.


It wasn't even the ref. The refs called the game over. Mr. Jones, the president of FIBA ordered it. Imagine Lamine Diack ordering LJ officials to give one jumper two extra jumps just because...Totally incomprehensible and unprecedented.
Last edited by Pego on Tue Aug 14, 2012 3:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A few pieces of Silver

Postby Conor Dary » Tue Aug 14, 2012 1:21 pm

lonewolf wrote:Anyone who saw that game live in 1972 knows the USA was screwed out of the victory.


Exactly.
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Re: A few pieces of Silver

Postby jazzcyclist » Tue Aug 14, 2012 2:30 pm

Pego wrote:
lonewolf wrote:The ref kept putting time back on the clock until Russia scored.


It wasn't even the ref. The refs called the game over. Mr. Jones, the president of FIBA ordered it. Imagine Lamine Diack ordering LJ officials to give one jumper three extra jumps just because...Totally incomprehensible and unprecedented.

Could you imagine the chaos that would ensue if David Stern came out of the stands and did the same thing at the end of an NBA game 7? :shock: Talk about opening up the gates of hell!

EDIT: Here's a question. What would have been the reaction if the 1972 basketball team taken the Tarmoh route and refused to take the court when time was put back on the clock?
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Re: A few pieces of Silver

Postby lonewolf » Tue Aug 14, 2012 2:57 pm

Pego wrote:
lonewolf wrote:The ref kept putting time back on the clock until Russia scored.


It wasn't even the ref. The refs called the game over. Mr. Jones, the president of FIBA ordered it. Imagine Lamine Diack ordering LJ officials to give one jumper three extra jumps just because...Totally incomprehensible and unprecedented.

You are correct, Pego.. that unforgettable detail slipped my mind.. didn't he come out of the stands? I don't think I ever knew who "Mr. Jones" was or his authority and do not know or remember the justification for the ruling.
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Re: A few pieces of Silver

Postby mump boy » Tue Aug 14, 2012 3:14 pm

Well none of those explanations are ever aired in the UK. Maybe it's just a US thing.

Wallechinkky's book which i assume most agree is authoritative, notes that the US were not ever in front in the whole game until 3 seconds before the final whistle and while general secretary of FIBA may not have been entitled to demand an extra 3 sec he was technically correct. He was also from the UK so i'm not sure where the anti US bias comes from !!

It seems to me it was an exceptional circumstance which unfortunately didn't play itself out the way you would like it to have. Being sore losers does you no favours at all

Roy Jones Jnr 'defeat' was in a different league yet he still went and accepted his medal like a gentleman.
Last edited by mump boy on Tue Aug 14, 2012 3:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A few pieces of Silver

Postby Pego » Tue Aug 14, 2012 3:15 pm

lonewolf wrote:
Pego wrote:
lonewolf wrote:The ref kept putting time back on the clock until Russia scored.


It wasn't even the ref. The refs called the game over. Mr. Jones, the president of FIBA ordered it. Imagine Lamine Diack ordering LJ officials to give one jumper three extra jumps just because...Totally incomprehensible and unprecedented.

You are correct, Pego.. that unforgettable detail slipped my mind.. didn't he come out of the stands? I don't think I ever knew who "Mr. Jones" was or his authority and do not know or remember the justification for the ruling.


Yes, he walked up to the refs from the stands. I do not recall that any justification would be ever offered.
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Re: A few pieces of Silver

Postby mump boy » Tue Aug 14, 2012 3:18 pm

lonewolf wrote: The ref kept putting time back on the clock until Russia scored.


This is simply not true, the clock was put back ONCE for 3 sec, to when the SU had originally asked for a TO.
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Re: A few pieces of Silver

Postby lonewolf » Tue Aug 14, 2012 3:26 pm

mump boy wrote:
lonewolf wrote: The ref kept putting time back on the clock until Russia scored.


This is simply not true, the clock was put back ONCE for 3 sec, to when the SU had originally asked for a TO.

As I said, it has been 40 years and the details are fuzzy but I remember two re-starts after the clock expired.
Anyone know where this is archived?
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Re: A few pieces of Silver

Postby Pego » Tue Aug 14, 2012 3:33 pm

lonewolf wrote:
mump boy wrote:
lonewolf wrote: The ref kept putting time back on the clock until Russia scored.


This is simply not true, the clock was put back ONCE for 3 sec, to when the SU had originally asked for a TO.

As I said, it has been 40 years and the details are fuzzy but I remember two re-starts after the clock expired.
Anyone know where this is archived?


Your memory is fine. First one was by the ref as SU were calling a TO. That went awry. Not sure whether there was a second one by the refs. The last one, Yedeshko to Belov was given by Jones.
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Re: A few pieces of Silver

Postby cullman » Tue Aug 14, 2012 4:00 pm

Mump and Pego...your memory of the details are correct! I googled "Yedeshko McMillen" and lo and behold...an article complete with video from the February 2000 issue of Referee Magazine.

Link - The 1972 Olympic men's basketball final may not have been as controversial as you think

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Re: A few pieces of Silver

Postby Dutra5 » Tue Aug 14, 2012 5:25 pm

jazzcyclist wrote:
Pego wrote:
lonewolf wrote:The ref kept putting time back on the clock until Russia scored.


It wasn't even the ref. The refs called the game over. Mr. Jones, the president of FIBA ordered it. Imagine Lamine Diack ordering LJ officials to give one jumper three extra jumps just because...Totally incomprehensible and unprecedented.

Could you imagine the chaos that would ensue if David Stern came out of the stands and did the same thing at the end of an NBA game 7? :shock: Talk about opening up the gates of hell!

EDIT: Here's a question. What would have been the reaction if the 1972 basketball team taken the Tarmoh route and refused to take the court when time was put back on the clock?


My guess is that the referee would have permitted the Soviet Union to inbound the ball.
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Re: A few pieces of Silver

Postby Dutra5 » Tue Aug 14, 2012 5:42 pm

mump boy wrote:
lonewolf wrote: The ref kept putting time back on the clock until Russia scored.


This is simply not true, the clock was put back ONCE for 3 sec, to when the SU had originally asked for a TO.


With 3 secs left the SU inbounded the ball and moved it to midcourt at which time the refs gave the SU the timeout. Jones signaled the TO should move the clock to 3 secs. He had no authority to get involved at all. It's also questionable as to whether the SU could call timeout in that case...not being sure of the rule at the time or the international rule currently as it is different than what we have in the US in the NBA. I think, based on observation, that you cannot call timeout in that case.

Once they came out of the timeout the clock was not reset to 3 secs and instead read 1 second. When the SU inbounds at this point the buzzer immediately sounds. The US celebrates. The clock error is solved and the SU again is allowed to inbound the ball. Tom McMillan is not permitted to defend at the baseline...possibly THE most bizarre ruling of all. This gives the SU a clear look to the other end of the court.

So...theoretically...3 secs was put back on the clock twice and the Soviets did inbound the ball 3 times on the same possession.
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Re: A few pieces of Silver

Postby preston » Tue Aug 14, 2012 7:00 pm

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/ ... MAG1003894
Six seconds. Six seconds left in the final basketball game of the '72 Summer Games in Munich, the U.S. trailing the Soviet Union 49-48, the Americans' unbeaten streak of 63 Olympic basketball games all but ended. Then Doug Collins intercepts a pass, drives toward the basket, gets hammered nearly unconscious against the stanchion with three seconds left, regains his wits and sinks perhaps the two most pressure-filled free throws ever.

******

Three seconds. The Soviets have the ball. Forbidden by international rules to call timeout after a free throw, they must inbound the ball, and then their coach must push a button on the sidelines, activating a red light, to arrange a timeout. Instead, with their offense in chaos after they inbound, the Soviet coach and bench spill onto the floor, demanding that the clock be stopped, in violation of the rules.

One second. The Bulgarian referee, Artenik Arabadjan, stops the clock, claiming there are fans on the court. Only the Soviet bench is on the court. The referee does not permit a timeout. The Soviets inbound again; the passer steps on the line, but no call is made. His long pass is deflected. The buzzer sounds. The Americans go wild, 50-49 winners of the gold.

No seconds. R. William Jones of Great Britain, the secretary general of the International Amateur Basketball Federation (FIBA), who has absolutely no authority during an Olympic game, descends from the stands and overrules the officials, granting the Soviets their timeout and putting three seconds back on the clock.

The Soviets line up to inbound again. The Brazilian referee, Renato Righetto, orders 6'11" Tom McMillen to back off the inbounds passer—enforcing a rule that doesn't exist in international play—or he'll call a technical foul. McMillen backs off about halfway to the foul line, permitting Ivan Edeshko to hurl a perfect length-of-the-court pass to 6'7" teammate Aleksandr Belov, who leaps over two Americans, grabs the ball and drops it in the basket. The Soviets go wild, 51-50 winners of the gold.
Last edited by preston on Wed Aug 15, 2012 5:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A few pieces of Silver

Postby lonewolf » Tue Aug 14, 2012 8:17 pm

Seems pretty controversal to me. :x
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Re: A few pieces of Silver

Postby jackbean » Tue Aug 14, 2012 8:43 pm

mump boy wrote:Well none of those explanations are ever aired in the UK. Maybe it's just a US thing.


Ignorance is not an excuse. Don't comment if you don't know the whole story. :roll: FYI: the internet makes it pretty easy to find information now.
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Re: A few pieces of Silver

Postby lonewolf » Tue Aug 14, 2012 9:09 pm

jackbean wrote:
mump boy wrote:Well none of those explanations are ever aired in the UK. Maybe it's just a US thing.


Ignorance is not an excuse. Don't comment if you don't know the whole story. :roll: FYI: the internet makes it pretty easy to find information now.

Yep, it is definitely a US thing.. and most of us are still pissed about it..remember, this was during the Cold War period, adding insult to injury.
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Re: A few pieces of Silver

Postby mump boy » Wed Aug 15, 2012 2:06 am

jackbean wrote:
mump boy wrote:Well none of those explanations are ever aired in the UK. Maybe it's just a US thing.


Ignorance is not an excuse. Don't comment if you don't know the whole story. :roll: FYI: the internet makes it pretty easy to find information now.


Who are you any why have you decided to come on every thread and start an argument with me today ??

I'm not ignorant of the event and if you would had cared to continue reading you will see so. My point is that it is viewed very differently in the rest of the world than it is in the understandably partisan US.

This is shown in every single Greatest Olympic Moment type tv shows and it is NEVER reported as the US being cheated, rather as them being bad losers.

Nobody is saying it was a perfect solution, far from it. It was a very close game that came down to the very last seconds and SU DID signal for a time out with 3 seconds to go. This ridiculous sulking 40 years later by both players and it would seem fans it rather pathetic

Still nobody has explained to me why Roy Jones Jnr felt it appropriate to accept his medal while basketball players still don't. Or are you going to argue that this was somehow worse ?
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Re: A few pieces of Silver

Postby Marlow » Wed Aug 15, 2012 2:56 am

mump boy wrote:It was a very close game that came down to the very last seconds and SU DID signal for a time out with 3 seconds to go. This ridiculous sulking 40 years later by both players and it would seem fans it rather pathetic


Three seconds. The Soviets have the ball. Forbidden by international rules to call timeout after a free throw, they must inbound the ball, and then their coach must push a button on the sidelines, activating a red light, to arrange a timeout. Instead, with their offense in chaos after they inbound, the Soviet coach and bench spill onto the floor, demanding that the clock be stopped, in violation of the rules.
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Re: A few pieces of Silver

Postby Pego » Wed Aug 15, 2012 4:27 am

mump boy wrote:Still nobody has explained to me why Roy Jones Jnr felt it appropriate to accept his medal while basketball players still don't.


Olympic boxing has had numerous, uncountable number of godawful judging decisions since the beginning and it continues to the present. Those 3 seconds of the basketball game were unprecedented not only in basketball but any other sport. Show me one instance in history of sports when the federation's president (or even doubling up as chairman of the technical committee as the case may be here) walked up to the refs and overruled them. I certainly am not aware of any. Oh yes, just because some journalists consider the American response unreasonable, it does not unnecessarily make it so.
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Re: A few pieces of Silver

Postby mump boy » Wed Aug 15, 2012 4:29 am

Wallechinsky describes it differently.
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Re: A few pieces of Silver

Postby Pego » Wed Aug 15, 2012 4:40 am

mump boy wrote:Wallechinsky describes it differently.


I saw it live and quite a few times afterwards.
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Re: A few pieces of Silver

Postby preston » Wed Aug 15, 2012 6:40 am

The reference back to "Wallechinksy" is besides the point. The video tape shows exactly what is described in the article (for those who bothered to read it. well done, Marlow, well done :wink: ); the rules as they were in '72 were either not followed or made up; the Americans "inexplicably" got back on the court instead of saying, "hell no! we already won"; there are a lot of questions, but just because it is portrayed "differently" in another part of the world - or even the rest of the world - doesn't mean reasonable people who can understand rules for themselves and watch video can't see what transpired.

Surprisingly, lonewolf, who is normally the most calm of posters, is obviously animated about this; he feels the USA was definitely cheated. He actually sounds "pissed" and lonewolf doesn't normally get pissed. Pego and others feel the same way, and I've yet to read a single person answer the question of should they get the silver medal in the affirmative. Mump, I'm not saying you're wrong (even though I don't agree with you), but this is obviously a touchy one for Americans.

All that said, I want to believe that I would have said no at the time and I would continue to say no to this day. The article references this question of will they take them or not that comes up every 4 years as a devil's temptation waiting for them to eventually give in. That temptation is obviously working on a few members of that team.

A long time ago in one of the biggest events of my life (certainly at that time) I made a mistake; a mistake born out of arrogance. When asked about it I always said "I would do it again the same way because it was the right thing to do". However, looking back, sometimes the "right" result can come from a sub-optimal approach; had I made that concession the outcome would have been what I wanted. I was right with the wrong result; I'd rather have the result...and still be right, but it doesn't work like that - life doesn't make it that easy, that's why it's such a hard choice (or easy for the most obstinate/principled). Marlow gave his Navy example and I'm sure all of us have one that went well or bad.

Again, Tarmoh's "decision" really isn't crazy to me, even though I probably would have re-raced, just like the '72 Americans decided to take the court two times more than they "felt" they needed to. When you read the comments of the '72 players who are most adamant, you can see that the medal is not an option; that they feel cheated (even though, again, they agreed to take the court); that they feel betrayed by teammates that they once sacrificed with and for by the very notion that those equivocating would or ever could accept those medals.
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Re: A few pieces of Silver

Postby mump boy » Wed Aug 15, 2012 6:51 am

I've seen the video as well and the SU coach clearly calls for TO

The head of FIBA, the referee and the appeals panel all agreed, why would some clearly partisan fans think they know better and why would all of these people want to 'cheat' US

Surely a better explanation is that in a unprecedented situation they tried to make the fairest decision possible. I bet no one expected SU to score !!

If there had been some kind of co ordinated attempt to let SU win i'm sure they would have done a better job than leaving it till 3 sec till the end

I also stand by my point, whatever the 'fairness' of the result Roy Jones Jnr comes out of it with a whole lot more dignity than any of the US team. As would Tarmoh if she had either accepted the run off or declines and kept quite about it.

I think she was treated appallingly, i've never heard of holding a press conference and then the result being changed BUT what was her solution ? that she should just be declared the winner because that's how it was announced ? The photo finish clearly shows it was too close to call and once again in an unprecedented situation officials tried to do their best.

She chose to opt out of all solutions and then complain about it !!
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Re: A few pieces of Silver

Postby Daisy » Wed Aug 15, 2012 6:54 am

mump boy wrote:My point is that it is viewed very differently in the rest of the world than it is in the understandably partisan US.

I'm not sure if this is true. Pego is siding with the US, me too. Neither of us are partisans when it comes to the US.

mump boy wrote:I've seen the video as well and the SU coach clearly calls for TO

But the rules didn't allow the TO to be called until the ball was back in play. They tried to call the TO before the final free throw and then invaded the court.

mump boy wrote:I also stand by my point, whatever the 'fairness' of the result Roy Jones Jnr comes out of it with a whole lot more dignity than any of the US team.

Does this analogy really work? Scoring in boxing is subjective, whereas, the rule for when a TO can be called was not.
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Re: A few pieces of Silver

Postby jazzcyclist » Wed Aug 15, 2012 7:07 am

preston wrote: the Americans "inexplicably" got back on the court instead of saying, "hell no! we already won"; .

That's my question. Why did they get back on the court in the first place? Whenever you agree to a redo, there's no guarantee that you'll win the second time around and you give legitimacy to a crooked process. That's why I sympathize with Tarmoh. If she really believes deep down that Felix was getting special and unprecedented treatment, then by agreeing to a redo, she would have been giving legitimacy to a process that she felt was crooked.
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Re: A few pieces of Silver

Postby mump boy » Wed Aug 15, 2012 7:09 am

Daisy wrote:
mump boy wrote:My point is that it is viewed very differently in the rest of the world than it is in the understandably partisan US.

I'm not sure if this is true. Pego is siding with the US, me too. Neither of us are partisans when it comes to the US.

mump boy wrote:I've seen the video as well and the SU coach clearly calls for TO

But the rules didn't allow the TO to be called until the ball was back in play. They tried to call the TO before the final free throw and then invaded the court.

mump boy wrote:I also stand by my point, whatever the 'fairness' of the result Roy Jones Jnr comes out of it with a whole lot more dignity than any of the US team.

Does this analogy really work? Scoring in boxing is subjective, whereas, the rule for when a TO can be called was not.


It would seem all of the officials at the time disagree with you on this point :?
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Re: A few pieces of Silver

Postby jazzcyclist » Wed Aug 15, 2012 7:18 am

mump boy wrote:I've seen the video as well and the SU coach clearly calls for TO

The head of FIBA, the referee and the appeals panel all agreed, why would some clearly partisan fans think they know better and why would all of these people want to 'cheat' US

Surely a better explanation is that in a unprecedented situation they tried to make the fairest decision possible. I bet no one expected SU to score !!

That's your problem, you think the FIBA officials should have done what they thought was fair rather than stick to the written rules. You seem to be okay with making up rules after the fact in the interest of doing what you think is fair.
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Re: A few pieces of Silver

Postby Daisy » Wed Aug 15, 2012 7:20 am

mump boy wrote:It would seem all of the officials at the time disagree with you on this point :?

You mean the rule for when a TO can be called? Certainly I am no expert, but it sounds like the pandemonium got to them or they were over-ruled.

What do you think the TO rule was then? Was it within the rules to call the TO during the free throws and then invade the court?
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Re: A few pieces of Silver

Postby preston » Wed Aug 15, 2012 7:39 am

mump, I don't understand your position at all. This isn't about any "[divine] right to win everything", this is about following the rules of the game. At what point is a "loss" a loss if you haven't lost fair and square is the American point. Or is this a British subject thing where the athletes are supposed to know their place as "obedients/commoners" and accept the decisions of those deemed "better"?
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Re: A few pieces of Silver

Postby mump boy » Wed Aug 15, 2012 8:08 am

preston wrote:mump, I don't understand your position at all. This isn't about any "[divine] right to win everything", this is about following the rules of the game. At what point is a "loss" a loss if you haven't lost fair and square is the American point. Or is this a British subject thing where the athletes are supposed to know their place as "obedients/commoners" and accept the decisions of those deemed "better"?


My point is there is obviously a grey area here around when the time out was called (I've read reports that SU tried to call it earlier but the buzzer had fallen under the desk !!), neither i or any of you, know exactly what happened. In the unprecedented situation officials gave SU the benefit of the doubt and allowed them 3 sec (3 sec not 30), i doubt anyone thought they would have scored. If it had been the other way around US would have be screaming for their time out as well

They may have felt hard done by but it certainly doesn't look like some grand conspiracy like all that ice skating shit, they should have collected their medals.

There are far worse results in OG history than this, ask Yang Tae-Young (who accepted his medal)
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Re: A few pieces of Silver

Postby preston » Wed Aug 15, 2012 8:27 am

mump boy wrote:
preston wrote:mump, I don't understand your position at all. This isn't about any "[divine] right to win everything", this is about following the rules of the game. At what point is a "loss" a loss if you haven't lost fair and square is the American point. Or is this a British subject thing where the athletes are supposed to know their place as "obedients/commoners" and accept the decisions of those deemed "better"?


My point is there is obviously a grey area here around when the time out was called (I've read reports that SU tried to call it earlier but the buzzer had fallen under the desk !!), neither i or any of you, know exactly what happened. In the unprecedented situation officials gave SU the benefit of the doubt and allowed them 3 sec (3 sec not 30), i doubt anyone thought they would have scored. If it had been the other way around US would have be screaming for their time out as well

They may have felt hard done by but it certainly doesn't look like some grand conspiracy like all that ice skating shit, they should have collected their medals.

There are far worse results in OG history than this, ask Yang Tae-Young (who accepted his medal)

You say "3 sec (3 sec not 300)". The only problem is that 3 sec is not just 2 additional seconds to 1 - which is the correct amount that SHOULD have been on the clock (assuming that the game shouldn't already have been over, which the Americans do)- 3 seconds is a lifetime compared to 1. There should have only have been one second yet the FIBA head made them put two additional seconds on the clock. So even when the benefit of the doubt is given and we recognize that officials miss calls so the fact that the CCCP athlete stepped on the line and it wasn't called during the inbounds pass is just "one of those things", it still doesn't account for a referee threatening a player with a technical foul if he defends the inbounds pass - a rule that existed nowhere in international basketball.

I think what you believe, and please correct me if I'm wrong, is that no matter what happens, an athlete is duty bound by the "Athletes pledge" to accept the ruling of the judges and not act like the '72 USA BBall team or the Cuban Taekwando athlete from 2008 or even Jon Drummond from '03 Paris? If so, that's consistent, but if Heidler's throw was never re-measured and she never medalled would it have been your position that she just go back quietly to the circuit? That she received "just compensation": an additional throw that she may not have wanted; and that's enough?
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