USA Swiiming opening the door for USA Track?


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USA Swiiming opening the door for USA Track?

Postby MissThickBooty » Sun Jul 29, 2012 2:06 pm

So is this going to be a reverse of Beijing? The USA Swimming team performed amazing while the Track team stunk the place up...So far the heavy favored USA Swimming team has failed to make a big splash, only 2 golds and a bunch of silver\bronze......Interesting...... :wink: (As a track fan)....
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Re: USA Swiiming opening the door for USA Track?

Postby aaronk » Sun Jul 29, 2012 2:15 pm

What do you think of that 16 year old Chinese girl swimming her FS portion of her 400 Medley FASTER than Ryan Lochte??

Is she the swimming version of Wang Junxia et al?? :shock:
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Re: USA Swiiming opening the door for USA Track?

Postby NotSoOrdinary » Sun Jul 29, 2012 2:28 pm

I actually do somewhat agree with this. So far USA swimming has been disappointment after disappointment. Both men's and women's 4x100 teams lost. Women's 400im...lost.
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Re: USA Swiiming opening the door for USA Track?

Postby Daisy » Sun Jul 29, 2012 2:53 pm

NotSoOrdinary wrote:So far USA swimming has been disappointment after disappointment.

You're kidding? Possibly the US audience has become too spoiled?

Medals to date:
Code: Select all
                G   S   B  Total
United States   2   3   3   8
China           2   1   1   4
France          2   -   -   2
Australia       1   1   1   3
South Africa    1   -   -   1
Brazil          -   1   -   1
Korea           -   1   -   1
Netherlands     -   1   -   1 (not bad for a bunch of speed skaters)
United Kingdom  -   -   1   1
Japan           -   -   1   1
Russia          -   -   1   1
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Re: USA Swiiming opening the door for USA Track?

Postby Marlow » Sun Jul 29, 2012 5:27 pm

What I find interesting is that they disallowed the WR suits and yet they're still breaking WRs!
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Re: USA Swiiming opening the door for USA Track?

Postby odelltrclan » Sun Jul 29, 2012 5:50 pm

NotSoOrdinary wrote:I actually do somewhat agree with this. So far USA swimming has been disappointment after disappointment. Both men's and women's 4x100 teams lost. Women's 400im...lost.


Disappointment?! They have managed to medal in every final so far. If the track team could only be so lucky. People are unrealistically spoiled in the US. Your not going to have a swimmer as dominant as Michael Phelps was in 2008 very often, if ever again. I cannot believe anyone could even suggest "disappointment". Unbelievable!
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Re: USA Swiiming opening the door for USA Track?

Postby guru » Sun Jul 29, 2012 6:24 pm

Agree with odelltrclan - they're doing fine in the pool, with the US power events still to come.

I'd suggest Ms Ordinary Booty stick to track...
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Re: USA Swiiming opening the door for USA Track?

Postby Daisy » Sun Jul 29, 2012 6:41 pm

guru wrote:I'd suggest Ms Ordinary Booty stick to track...

I think that's NotSoThick to you.
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Re: USA Swiiming opening the door for USA Track?

Postby Pego » Sun Jul 29, 2012 6:48 pm

odelltrclan wrote:
NotSoOrdinary wrote:I actually do somewhat agree with this. So far USA swimming has been disappointment after disappointment. Both men's and women's 4x100 teams lost. Women's 400im...lost.


Disappointment?! They have managed to medal in every final so far. If the track team could only be so lucky. People are unrealistically spoiled in the US. Your not going to have a swimmer as dominant as Michael Phelps was in 2008 very often, if ever again. I cannot believe anyone could even suggest "disappointment". Unbelievable!


The mind boggles!
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Re: USA Swiiming opening the door for USA Track?

Postby Per Andersen » Sun Jul 29, 2012 9:00 pm

aaronk wrote:What do you think of that 16 year old Chinese girl swimming her FS portion of her 400 Medley FASTER than Ryan Lochte??

Is she the swimming version of Wang Junxia et al?? :shock:

USA not winning the 4X100 freestyle has to be disappointing. But why on use Lochte on the anchor?

Yes, the US is leading in medals but it is close. The word disappointing is not far fetched.
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Re: USA Swiiming opening the door for USA Track?

Postby Tuariki » Sun Jul 29, 2012 10:51 pm

Per Andersen wrote:Yes, the US is leading in medals but it is close. The word disappointing is not far fetched.


Why?? Is this because some in the US are so arrogant they believe that with 5% of the world's population they have some sort of divine right to 60% or more of the Olympic gold swimming medals?
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Re: USA Swiiming opening the door for USA Track?

Postby Master Po » Mon Jul 30, 2012 5:04 am

Tuariki wrote:
Per Andersen wrote:Yes, the US is leading in medals but it is close. The word disappointing is not far fetched.


Why?? Is this because some in the US are so arrogant they believe that with 5% of the world's population they have some sort of divine right to 60% or more of the Olympic gold swimming medals?


Tuariki -- You pose a good question. Writing from the USA, I think we can understand this "arrogance" (but I'd rather set aside that term -- though it is accurate). Not trying to get into an argument with you; rather, I think the sentiments of disappointment expressed at "mere" non-dominant USA success in OG swimming are shaped by the history of dominance of this sport in the OG. Look at that history: USA has ~3x as many OG swimming medals and ~4x as many gold medals as the next nation on the all-time medal list (Australia). Please note: I am not trying to advance the argument that the somehow the USA should always be able to dominate OG swimming, because USA swimming has in the past. But historically, USA is the great OG swimming power, so cultural expectations are there and NBC's presentation of the sport during this OG (and American TV presentation of swimming in every OG I can recall) always presents the sport from this framework of great dominance. Thus, "merely" being atop the medals table in swimming (absurdly) gets presented as a sporting crisis. I think many USA viewers who do not follow the sport closely (which would be almost everyone, as swimming, like athletics, is a niche sport outside the OG), accept the presentation of such expectations of dominance without knowing much about the way the sport is developing global excellence in a variety of nations beyond the USA (and Australia, the historically second dominant power in the all-time medal tables). I for one think one of the worst things for any global sport is when a single nation always dominates; so, as much as I enjoy watching USA swimming, I appreciate a (somewhat) wider range of competition at the top.
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Re: USA Swiiming opening the door for USA Track?

Postby Powell » Mon Jul 30, 2012 6:42 am

Per Andersen wrote:USA not winning the 4X100 freestyle has to be disappointing. But why on use Lochte on the anchor?


Because of arrogance? Lochte didn't even qualify for this event at the Trials. But he is hyped up as the star of the Games, so they put him on the glory leg, probably believing the US team would win no matter what their lineup is.
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Re: USA Swiiming opening the door for USA Track?

Postby Powell » Mon Jul 30, 2012 6:50 am

aaronk wrote:What do you think of that 16 year old Chinese girl swimming her FS portion of her 400 Medley FASTER than Ryan Lochte??


But that's not really a fair comparison. Lochte did most of the work in the first 300 meters, and he faded a bit in the last 100. He already had the race won by then, so he didn't have to push it, either. Ye started conservatively, and thus had a lot left in the tank at the final 100.
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Re: USA Swiiming opening the door for USA Track?

Postby Powell » Mon Jul 30, 2012 6:55 am

Tuariki wrote:Why?? Is this because some in the US are so arrogant they believe that with 5% of the world's population they have some sort of divine right to 60% or more of the Olympic gold swimming medals?


But swimming is still not as global a sport as T&F. There may now be an occasional star from Tunisia or Zimbabwe, but for the most part, it's still dominated by the more developed countries. The whole population of the globe isn't the right basis for this calculation.
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Re: USA Swiiming opening the door for USA Track?

Postby Master Po » Mon Jul 30, 2012 8:16 am

Powell wrote:
aaronk wrote:What do you think of that 16 year old Chinese girl swimming her FS portion of her 400 Medley FASTER than Ryan Lochte??


But that's not really a fair comparison. Lochte did most of the work in the first 300 meters, and he faded a bit in the last 100. He already had the race won by then, so he didn't have to push it, either. Ye started conservatively, and thus had a lot left in the tank at the final 100.


Powell -- Thanks for pointing out why this comparison doesn't quite hold up, or at least needs a whole lot more context to show where it doesn't hold up. First, I'm not even sure it's the case that Ye's entire FS split was faster than Lochte's -- maybe it was, but I don't know; what has been highlighted is that her last 50 was, iirc, 28.93 to Lochte's 29.10 -- which as you point out was definitely the point at which Lochte had the race won. Though Lochte's winning time was fast, because his margin of victory was huge (~3.7 seconds, which is huge by OG swimming standards in this event), and because he wasn't near the WR (+1 sec outside the WR, which by swimming standards isn't close in this event), he wasn't going that hard at that point in the race. Ye, by comparison, was swimming for a WR (which she got by ~1 sec., which is about the same amount the WR was last lowered in this event in 2008, iirc). Ye's talent seems prodigious, to be sure, but she's about the same age as Missy Franklin, who is also swimming WRs, and who is a star (in our media's eyes) rather than raising suspicions. Oh well, such are the wonders and mystique of the OG! :)
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Re: USA Swiiming opening the door for USA Track?

Postby odelltrclan » Mon Jul 30, 2012 8:41 am

Ye's final 100 split was slower than Lochte's, but only by 0.01. The final 50 was faster. Yes, Lochte was coasting (a bit), so he likely would have been able to go a little faster if pushed. Still, in perspective, the men's world bests are in the 47, 48 range for the top times for the 100 while the women's top times in the event are in the 53, 54 range. So for Ye to post a 58 time in the 100 in an IM is eye opening to say the LEAST.

Lochte swam the second or third fastest Male 400IM in history. He is also an outstanding freestyler and that is one of his strengths of the event for him.
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Re: USA Swiiming opening the door for USA Track?

Postby Master Po » Mon Jul 30, 2012 9:32 am

Interesting to compare Ye's WR splits w Stephanie Rice's (previous) WR splits (Rice set her WR in Beijing)

Rice (2008): 4:29.45
Ye (2012): 4:28.43

stroke Rice Ye
fly 1:01.47 1:02.19 (Rice +.72 sec)
back 1:08.36 1:09.54 (Rice +1.18 sec; total +1.90 sec)
br 1:17.42 1:18.02 (Rice +.60 sec; total +2.50 sec)
free 1:02.20 58.86 (Ye +3.16 sec; wins by 1.02)

So, a monster freestyle portion of this race, and -- set Lochte aside -- I think a distinctive way of setting a new WR in this event (though I don't have the history of the WR progression, w splits, at hand). She seems to have put together an outstanding 3/4 but basically laid off the (WR) pace for 3/4, and then hammered the last 100 in a split you might more likely expect to see in a race half the distance.
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Re: USA Swiiming opening the door for USA Track?

Postby odelltrclan » Mon Jul 30, 2012 11:05 am

Just for those who are "disappointed" with the swimming so far. Lochte's 4th place in the 200 free today was the first event without a US medal. What happened right after?

Gold Medal - Missy Franklin in 100 Back (gold not expected)
Gold & Silver - Men's backstroke.
Silver - Women's 100 Breaststroke (misses gold by 0.08)

The U.S. is doing just fine.
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Re: USA Swiiming opening the door for USA Track?

Postby Powell » Mon Jul 30, 2012 11:13 pm

odelltrclan wrote:Ye's final 100 split was slower than Lochte's, but only by 0.01. The final 50 was faster. Yes, Lochte was coasting (a bit), so he likely would have been able to go a little faster if pushed. Still, in perspective, the men's world bests are in the 47, 48 range for the top times for the 100 while the women's top times in the event are in the 53, 54 range. So for Ye to post a 58 time in the 100 in an IM is eye opening to say the LEAST.


It was a phenomenal finish to be sure, but what I'm saying is it's a matter of tactics.
I can easily imagine something like that happening in T&F as well. Someone runs away from the field in the men's 10000, and wins without having to sprint, running the final 400 in, say, 62 seconds. Then you have the women's 10000 with a mass finish and Tiru wins with a 59 last lap. Not saying it's going to happen in London, but it doesn't seem that far-fetched.
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Re: USA Swiiming opening the door for USA Track?

Postby cullman » Tue Jul 31, 2012 9:01 am

An interesting article on the science behind "active recovery" and how Missy Franklin was able to swim two races within 15 minutes of each other.

Link: Franklin's Active Recovery May Have Been Key to Gold - Dr. Greg Wells, CTVOlympics.ca
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Re: USA Swiiming opening the door for USA Track?

Postby jazzcyclist » Tue Jul 31, 2012 9:18 am

Powell wrote:
odelltrclan wrote:Ye's final 100 split was slower than Lochte's, but only by 0.01. The final 50 was faster. Yes, Lochte was coasting (a bit), so he likely would have been able to go a little faster if pushed. Still, in perspective, the men's world bests are in the 47, 48 range for the top times for the 100 while the women's top times in the event are in the 53, 54 range. So for Ye to post a 58 time in the 100 in an IM is eye opening to say the LEAST.


It was a phenomenal finish to be sure, but what I'm saying is it's a matter of tactics.
I can easily imagine something like that happening in T&F as well. Someone runs away from the field in the men's 10000, and wins without having to sprint, running the final 400 in, say, 62 seconds. Then you have the women's 10000 with a mass finish and Tiru wins with a 59 last lap. Not saying it's going to happen in London, but it doesn't seem that far-fetched.

I always had the impression that tactical races are not as much a part of swimming as they are in track because there are no automatic qualifiers in the rounds and swimmers aren't as certain where other swimmers are in relation to themselves. Has Lochte said whether or not he coasted in? How fast was his final 50 in the heats when he presumably time-trialed from start to finish?
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Re: USA Swiiming opening the door for USA Track?

Postby lexvid » Tue Jul 31, 2012 1:55 pm

While I do feel bad for her, the question surrounding Ye is emphasized when compared to other FEMALE swimmers and their splits.

What's telling is that she easily beat another competitor (Alicia Coutts) who had a 100 M PB 1.6 secs. faster (53.78 vs. 55.38). For example Coutts split 29.91 in the final 50M of the 200 IM vs. 29.32 for Ye in the same race. Ye won easily after being behind the entire race.

I hope she is clean but swimming has a troublesome history (East Germans in the 70's; China in the 90's) when it comes to doping.

I hope this isn't deja vu.
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Re: USA Swiiming opening the door for USA Track?

Postby j-a-m » Tue Jul 31, 2012 6:21 pm

Powell wrote:It was a phenomenal finish to be sure, but what I'm saying is it's a matter of tactics.

Exactly. While it's a nice piece of information that she sort of outswam Lochte, what realy counts is the overall time.
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Re: USA Swiiming opening the door for USA Track?

Postby Daisy » Tue Jul 31, 2012 6:47 pm

odelltrclan wrote:The U.S. is doing just fine.

More than double the hardware that China has won.
Medals to date:
Code: Select all
                G   S   B  Total
United States   6   6   4   16
China           3   2   2    7
France          3   2   -    5
South Africa    2   -   -    2
Australia       1   3   2    6
Lithuania       1   -   -    1
Korea           -   2   -    2
Brazil          -   1   -    1
Netherlands     -   1   -    1
Japan           -   -   5    5
Russia          -   -   1    1
United Kingdom  -   -   1    1
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Re: USA Swiiming opening the door for USA Track?

Postby jazzcyclist » Tue Jul 31, 2012 8:20 pm

Let's translate this to track and field. Has there ever been an Olympics in which the final lap for the women's 1500 was faster than that of the men?
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Re: USA Swiiming opening the door for USA Track?

Postby odelltrclan » Wed Aug 01, 2012 5:51 am

Daisy wrote:
odelltrclan wrote:The U.S. is doing just fine.

More than double the hardware that China has won.
Medals to date:
Code: Select all
                G   S   B  Total
United States   6   6   4   16
China           3   2   2    7
France          3   2   -    5
South Africa    2   -   -    2
Australia       1   3   2    6
Lithuania       1   -   -    1
Korea           -   2   -    2
Brazil          -   1   -    1
Netherlands     -   1   -    1
Japan           -   -   5    5
Russia          -   -   1    1
United Kingdom  -   -   1    1



And plenty more to come.

Likely remaining medals?

Men: 100F (S) - 200Ba (G)(B) - 100Fl (S) - 200IM (G)(S) - Med Relay (G) = 7 with outside chances in 50F, 1500 Free

Women: 800F (S) - 200Ba (S) - 200fl (G)(B) - 200 Br (G) - Med Relay (G) = 6 with outside chances in 50, 100 Free

All in all that will be quite the showing, in my opinion.
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Re: USA Swiiming opening the door for USA Track?

Postby Powell » Wed Aug 01, 2012 6:34 am

jazzcyclist wrote:Let's translate this to track and field. Has there ever been an Olympics in which the final lap for the women's 1500 was faster than that of the men?


Not the final lap, but IIRC, in Barcelona the opening 400 was faster in the women's final than the men's.
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Re: USA Swiiming opening the door for USA Track?

Postby j-a-m » Wed Aug 01, 2012 6:47 am

Powell wrote:Not the final lap, but IIRC, in Barcelona the opening 400 was faster in the women's final than the men's.

Not sure, but the first lap for Wurth-Thomas in the 1500 at 2011 USAs may have been faster than the first lap in the men's event.
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Re: USA Swiiming opening the door for USA Track?

Postby Powell » Wed Aug 01, 2012 6:54 am

Powell wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote:Let's translate this to track and field. Has there ever been an Olympics in which the final lap for the women's 1500 was faster than that of the men?


Not the final lap, but IIRC, in Barcelona the opening 400 was faster in the women's final than the men's.


Found it. 62.3 for Chesire in the men's final, 60.7 for Rogachova in the women's.

And while it hasn't happened in practice, I can imagine a situation where the last lap would be slower for the men's winner than the women's. On the men's side we'd need a runaway winner, who would fade somewhat towards the end, but hold on to win after a 58.x last lap. In the women's final, we could have a slow race with a sprint finish where someone runs a 57.X. Unlikely, perhaps, but perfectly possible.
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Re: USA Swiiming opening the door for USA Track?

Postby jazzcyclist » Wed Aug 01, 2012 6:58 am

Powell wrote:
Powell wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote:Let's translate this to track and field. Has there ever been an Olympics in which the final lap for the women's 1500 was faster than that of the men?


Not the final lap, but IIRC, in Barcelona the opening 400 was faster in the women's final than the men's.


Found it. 62.3 for Chesire in the men's final, 60.7 for Rogachova in the women's.

And while it hasn't happened in practice, I can imagine a situation where the last lap would be slower for the men's winner than the women's. On the men's side we'd need a runaway winner, who would fade somewhat towards the end, but hold on to win after a 58.x last lap. In the women's final, we could have a slow race with a sprint finish where someone runs a 57.X. Unlikely, perhaps, but perfectly possible.

So it would require a very tactical race which doesn't normally happen in swimming. I'm pretty certain Ye's competitors were time-trialing the whole race.
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Re: USA Swiiming opening the door for USA Track?

Postby Powell » Wed Aug 01, 2012 7:07 am

jazzcyclist wrote:So it would require a very tactical race which doesn't normally happen in swimming. I'm pretty certain Ye's competitors were time-trialing the whole race.


But even if they're theoretically time-trialing, they don't all use the same tactics. Some start fast and fade, while others push hard only in the second half.
Also, don't forget we're talking of the IM, which is like a multi-event. It's normal that each of these swimmers will be stronger in some strokes than in others.
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Re: USA Swiiming opening the door for USA Track?

Postby j-a-m » Wed Aug 01, 2012 7:19 am

Powell wrote:Also, don't forget we're talking of the IM, which is like a multi-event. It's normal that each of these swimmers will be stronger in some strokes than in others.

So maybe the right comparison would be, is there a heptathlon winner who runs the 800m faster than the decathlon winner runs the last two laps?
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Re: USA Swiiming opening the door for USA Track?

Postby preston » Wed Aug 01, 2012 7:36 am

It's amazing how the posters have perverted thickbooty's thread! This isn't about swimming time trials, Lochte, or how many medals are won relative to the world and why the US should be grateful, it's about how the rise of swimming is direcly attributable to the success of the USA over the years, how NBC has been able to parlay that success into eyeballs by showcasing American gold medal ceremonies. This isn't happening now [USA dominance and compelling personalities] and it opens an opportunity for Track and Field - an opportunity that American Track and Field will be hard pressed to take advantage of if Jamaicans are as dominant in London as they were in Beijing.

MissThickBooty wrote:So is this going to be a reverse of Beijing? The USA Swimming team performed amazing while the Track team stunk the place up...So far the heavy favored USA Swimming team has failed to make a big splash, only 2 golds and a bunch of silver\bronze......Interesting...... :wink: (As a track fan)....
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Re: USA Swiiming opening the door for USA Track?

Postby odelltrclan » Wed Aug 01, 2012 7:49 am

preston wrote:It's amazing how the posters have perverted thickbooty's thread!

Ooooh, like no other thread in the history of message boards has ever drifted or expanded a topic! :roll:

preston wrote:it's about how the rise of swimming is direcly attributable to the success of the USA over the years, how NBC has been able to parlay that success into eyeballs by showcasing American gold medal ceremonies.


Where do you interpret this definition of the thread from the original post ? . . . . :o

Is it that you are
preston wrote: . . . perverted thickbooty's thread!

perverting the thread based upon your own interpretation of what you think it should be? Isn't that the pot calling the kettle black? :lol:
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Re: USA Swiiming opening the door for USA Track?

Postby preston » Wed Aug 01, 2012 8:31 am

Odell...if you were smarter you would stop laughing and you would read thickbooty's post again and understand WHY. Or you can wallow in your ability to deconstruct threads and remove the context, but look incredibly dense. Your choice.
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Re: USA Swiiming opening the door for USA Track?

Postby odelltrclan » Wed Aug 01, 2012 8:47 am

preston wrote:Odell...if you were smarter you would stop laughing and you would read thickbooty's post again and understand WHY. Or you can wallow in your ability to deconstruct threads and remove the context, but look incredibly dense. Your choice.


Oh please, this is a friggin internet message board, stop taking yourself so seriously! :roll: Really! Don't bother responding because I am done with this discussion with you.
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Re: USA Swiiming opening the door for USA Track?

Postby preston » Wed Aug 01, 2012 9:25 am

odelltrclan wrote:
preston wrote:Odell...if you were smarter you would stop laughing and you would read thickbooty's post again and understand WHY. Or you can wallow in your ability to deconstruct threads and remove the context, but look incredibly dense. Your choice.


Oh please, this is a friggin internet message board, stop taking yourself so seriously! :roll: Really! Don't bother responding because I am done with this discussion with you.

That's it, run off because you don't get to tell everyone else what to do. You were wrong, accept it.
preston
 
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Re: USA Swiiming opening the door for USA Track?

Postby jazzcyclist » Wed Aug 01, 2012 11:33 am

preston wrote:That's it, run off because you don't get to tell everyone else what to do. You were wrong, accept it.

But aren't you trying to tell everyone else what to do? :?
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Re: USA Swiiming opening the door for USA Track?

Postby preston » Wed Aug 01, 2012 12:10 pm

jazzcyclist wrote:
preston wrote:That's it, run off because you don't get to tell everyone else what to do. You were wrong, accept it.

But aren't you trying to tell everyone else what to do? :?

Please show where? Specifically.
preston
 
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