Gun (Lack of) Control


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Re: The Dark Knight Rises

Postby Vince » Sat Jul 21, 2012 1:15 pm

Pego wrote:
Vince wrote:Pego.... I'm not referring to any particular religion or political view...just how desensitized and receptive our current culture is toward violence.


Yes, with this I agree. I am just not sure, if there is a link. People have been committing atrocities throughout the ages long before our current culture.


Right, percentage wise compared to historic atrocities, we are probably less murderess today. I bet the perpetrators back then were also desensitized because they were raised in a violent culture.
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Re: The Dark Knight Rises

Postby kuha » Sat Jul 21, 2012 1:17 pm

Pego wrote:
odelltrclan wrote: But, many who were raised with those values who lose their belief in God also may struggle with a sense of right or wrong and end up with serious issues


Sorry, I disagree. There is no evidence that moral values of any kind are linked to individual's religiosity or irreligiosity. There are nice guys and assholes in both camps.


Correct. Let's just say that it's very "amusing" to try picturing, say, Aristotle (who very obviously wasn't a Christian) as having "no values." This attempt to link a particular kind of religiosity to any superior sort of moral "virtue" is just a non-starter.
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Re: The Dark Knight Rises

Postby Conor Dary » Sat Jul 21, 2012 1:59 pm

Vince wrote:Apparently you don't have a problem with a 8 yr. old seeing a bound victim disemboweled as long as they are accompanied by an adult.


Another idiotic comment that is impossible to reply to.
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Re: The Dark Knight Rises

Postby Conor Dary » Sat Jul 21, 2012 2:04 pm

James Fallows in The Atlantic gets to the heart of the problem that I have been pointing out. And it isn't some silly, a movie is the cause of it all, nonsense, but the fact that psychopaths are nothing unique to the US, but rather other countries do something about it.

    Like everyone, and I'd say especially like every parent, I am of course saddened and horrified by the latest mass shooting-murder. My sympathies to all.

    And of course the additional sad, horrifying, and appalling point is the shared American knowledge that, beyond any doubt, this will happen again, and that it will happen in America many, many times before it occurs anywhere else.

    Recently I visited the site of the "Port Arthur Massacre," in Tasmania, where in 1996 a disturbed young man shot and killed 35 people and wounded 23 more. The site is a kind of national shrine; afterwards, Australia tightened up its gun laws, and there has been nothing remotely comparable in all the years since. In contrast: not long after that shooting, during my incarnation as news-magazine editor, I dispatched reporters to cover then-shocking schoolyard mass shootings in West Paducah, Kentucky, and Jonesboro, Arkansas. Those two episodes, coming back to back, were -- as always -- supposed to provoke a "national discussion" about guns and gun violence. As always, they didn't; a while later they were nudged from the national consciousness by Columbine; and since then we have had so many schoolyard- or public-place shootings that those two are barely mentioned.

    The Brady Campaign's list of mass shootings in America just since 2005 is 62 pages long.

http://www.theatlantic.com/national/arc ... gs/260133/

And Adam Gopnik in the New Yorker today:

    The truth is made worse by the reality that no one--really no one--anywhere on the political spectrum has the courage to speak out about the madness of unleashed guns and what they do to American life....

    The reality is simple: every country struggles with madmen and ideologues with guns, and every country--Canada, Norway, Britain--has had a gun massacre once, or twice. Then people act to stop them, and they do--as over the past few years has happened in Australia. Only in America are gun massacres of this kind routine, expectable, and certain to continue.

http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/n ... z21BpEZtmr
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Re: The Dark Knight Rises

Postby Vince » Sat Jul 21, 2012 2:12 pm

kuha wrote:
Pego wrote:
odelltrclan wrote: But, many who were raised with those values who lose their belief in God also may struggle with a sense of right or wrong and end up with serious issues


Sorry, I disagree. There is no evidence that moral values of any kind are linked to individual's religiosity or irreligiosity. There are nice guys and assholes in both camps.


Correct. Let's just say that it's very "amusing" to try picturing, say, Aristotle (who very obviously wasn't a Christian) as having "no values." This attempt to link a particular kind of religiosity to any superior sort of moral "virtue" is just a non-starter.

When did someone say not being a "Christian" gave you "no values"??? Your biases are showing.

Aristotle did write this "We say therefore that God is a living being, eternal, most good, so that life and duration continuous and eternal belong to God; for this is God."
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Re: The Dark Knight Rises

Postby Vince » Sat Jul 21, 2012 2:16 pm

Conor Dary wrote:
Vince wrote:Apparently you don't have a problem with a 8 yr. old seeing a bound victim disemboweled as long as they are accompanied by an adult.


Another idiotic comment that is impossible to reply to.

It's only impossible for you because it's correct.
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Re: The Dark Knight Rises

Postby Conor Dary » Sat Jul 21, 2012 2:21 pm

Vince wrote:
Conor Dary wrote:
Vince wrote:Apparently you don't have a problem with a 8 yr. old seeing a bound victim disemboweled as long as they are accompanied by an adult.


Another idiotic comment that is impossible to reply to.

It's only impossible for you because it's correct.


Vince, you are a sad fellow....

By the way, where is that rational solution?
Last edited by Conor Dary on Sat Jul 21, 2012 2:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Dark Knight Rises

Postby Vince » Sat Jul 21, 2012 2:29 pm

Conor Dary wrote: And it isn't some silly, a movie is the cause of it all, nonsense, but the fact that psychopaths are nothing unique to the US, but rather other countries do something about it.


Too bad you have to lie. It was never said a movie was the cause of it all. Listen close ....IT IS A DESENSITIZATION TO VIOLENCE.
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Re: The Dark Knight Rises

Postby Conor Dary » Sat Jul 21, 2012 2:31 pm

Vince wrote:
Conor Dary wrote: And it isn't some silly, a movie is the cause of it all, nonsense, but the fact that psychopaths are nothing unique to the US, but rather other countries do something about it.


Too bad you have to lie. It was never said a movie was the cause of it all. Listen close ....IT IS A DESENSITIZATION TO VIOLENCE.


Sadder, and sadder....

Though it is amazing how these movies are shown all over the world, but some how we are the only ones affected? Hmmmm..
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Re: The Dark Knight Rises

Postby Vince » Sat Jul 21, 2012 2:56 pm

Conor Dary wrote:
Vince wrote:
Conor Dary wrote: And it isn't some silly, a movie is the cause of it all, nonsense, but the fact that psychopaths are nothing unique to the US, but rather other countries do something about it.


Too bad you have to lie. It was never said a movie was the cause of it all. Listen close ....IT IS A DESENSITIZATION TO VIOLENCE.


Sadder, and sadder....

Though it is amazing how these movies are shown all over the world, but some how we are the only ones affected? Hmmmm..

Look up mass killings in Norway, Australia, Great Britain, Finland, Germany, Russia, Japan etc......it's not just a US problem and not all of them used guns.
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Re: The Dark Knight Rises

Postby Conor Dary » Sat Jul 21, 2012 3:01 pm

Vince wrote:Look up mass killings in Norway, Australia, Great Britain, Finland, Germany, Russia, Japan etc......it's not just a US problem and not all of them used guns.


The saddest of all...why don't you read my earlier post, which looks at just that. Yes, there have been massacres in other countries. I was in England when the school shooting at Dunblane, Scotland happened in 1996. But the difference, as noted, is they did something about them.

Meanwhile, the tiresomeness of this thread goes on and on...:roll: :roll:
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Re: The Dark Knight Rises

Postby Pego » Sat Jul 21, 2012 3:34 pm

Vince wrote:Aristotle did write this "We say therefore that God is a living being, eternal, most good, so that life and duration continuous and eternal belong to God; for this is God."


Do you know where I could find it? This would be a strange declaration from a polytheist whose pupil (Alexander the Great) held Judaism (and the inhabitants of Judea/Samaria) in contempt.
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Re: The Dark Knight Rises

Postby TrakFan » Sat Jul 21, 2012 3:48 pm

Pego wrote:Do you know where I could find it? This would be a strange declaration from a polytheist whose pupil (Alexander the Great) held Judaism (and the inhabitants of Judea/Samaria) in contempt.


http://classics.mit.edu/Aristotle/metaphysics.html

Book VII, part 7...didn't read it all for context, but the actual quote is located there.
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Re: The Dark Knight Rises

Postby jazzcyclist » Sat Jul 21, 2012 3:54 pm

jeremyp wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote:
jeremyp wrote:Actually in Arizona you can, and I am sure in oter strates as well. "Fast and Furious" was all about "allowing" locals to buy up automatic weapons en masse, legally, and then arrest them before they got to Mexico. Unfortunately the AG's would not /could not arrest anybody because buying these wapons en masse was legal. As far as buying an automatic weapon I have little doubt I could get one if I had the urge to. I have friends who have done so (in Florida) and with no trouble at all. Some of my friends are ex cops and they are appalled at how easy it is to get them.

Wrong, wrong, wrong! The Gun Control Act of 1968 didn't give states any sort of latitude on automatic weapons. We're talking federal regulation, not state regulation, and as you know, federal law trumps state law. I'm not saying it's impossible to get an automatic weapon legally, just difficult and expensive. By the way, there's a big difference between automatic and semi-automatic when talking about guns. Are you sure you know the difference?

Edit: FYI, How to Buy an Automatic Weapon

From a Fortune investigative series.
Arizona, the state ranked by the gun-control advocacy group Legal Community Against Violence as having the nation's "weakest gun violence prevention laws." Just 200 miles from Mexico, which prohibits gun sales, the Phoenix area is home to 853 federally licensed firearms dealers. Billboards advertise volume discounts for multiple purchases.

Customers can legally buy as many weapons as they want in Arizona as long as they're 18 or older and pass a criminal background check. There are no waiting periods and no need for permits, and buyers are allowed to resell the guns. "In Arizona," says Voth, "someone buying three guns is like someone buying a sandwich."

By 2009 the Sinaloa drug cartel had made Phoenix its gun supermarket and recruited young Americans as its designated shoppers or straw purchasers. Voth and his agents began investigating a group of buyers, some not even old enough to buy beer, whose members were plunking down as much as $20,000 in cash to purchase up to 20 semiautomatics at a time, and then delivering the weapons to others.

http://features.blogs.fortune.cnn.com/2 ... ous-truth/


The discussion was about automatic weapons. The story that you linked has nothing to do with automatic weapons. Obviously, you don't know what an automatic weapon is.
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Re: The Dark Knight Rises

Postby TrakFan » Sat Jul 21, 2012 3:59 pm

Poor Marlow. I appreciate his reviews and overall love of movies -- and feel bad that this thread was hijacked. :(
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Re: The Dark Knight Rises

Postby Pego » Sat Jul 21, 2012 4:03 pm

Thank you, TrakFan. I cannot find it there :( .
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Re: The Dark Knight Rises

Postby TrakFan » Sat Jul 21, 2012 4:11 pm

Pego wrote:Thank you, TrakFan. I cannot find it there :( .


Oops Book XII, Part 7...3rd paragraph :oops:

Here's the link: http://classics.mit.edu/Aristotle/metap ... 2.xii.html
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Re: The Dark Knight Rises

Postby Pego » Sat Jul 21, 2012 4:25 pm

TrakFan wrote:
Pego wrote:Thank you, TrakFan. I cannot find it there :( .


Oops Book XII, Part 7...3rd paragraph :oops:

Here's the link: http://classics.mit.edu/Aristotle/metap ... 2.xii.html


Thanks again. Most interesting. I would love to know what was the Greek word translated into English as "God."
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Re: The Dark Knight Rises

Postby kuha » Sat Jul 21, 2012 4:38 pm

Yes, it's there, but I'm not sure what the relevance is. Aristotle is using God to define his First Mover. The key is that the concept for him is not "religious," but a matter of "physics." More centrally, it is a logical necessity for him--thus, it is a matter of reason, not "faith." So Aristotle's God is, as far as I can tell, reasonably similar to Spinoza's, with relatively little to do with a Biblical deity.
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Re: The Dark Knight Rises

Postby JRM » Sat Jul 21, 2012 4:40 pm

Vince wrote:To all the gun control people, would you have preferred that he spray all the patrons with an oily gasoline mixture and then throw a match and lock the fire escapes on his way out? It's not about the method, ...


Would you mind citing all the instances of mass murder by dousing of gasoline? I'm sure there must be a number of them in the countries where guns aren't as accessible, because they still have the crazy people....
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Re: The Dark Knight Rises

Postby Marlow » Sat Jul 21, 2012 4:42 pm

[NOT on the 'gun issue' . . . ]

Pego wrote:Thanks again. Most interesting. I would love to know what was the Greek word translated into English as "God."

Aristotle's idea of God was actually 'Prime Mover', which has a little, but not a lot, in common with the Christian concept of God.

http://www.scandalon.co.uk/philosophy/aristotle_prime_mover.htm wrote:Aristotle believed that all movement depends on there being a mover. Aristotle argued that behind every movement there must be a chain of events that brought about the movement that we see taking place. Aristotle argued that this chain of events must lead back to something which moves but is itself unmoved. This is referred to as the Prime Mover. In Aristotle’s view change is eternal. There cannot have been a first change, because something would have to have happened just before that change which set it off, and this itself would have been a change, and so on.
In his book Metaphysics (literally after physics), Aristotle calls this source of all movement the Prime Mover. The Prime Mover to Aristotle is the first of all substances, the necessary first sources of movement which is itself unmoved. It is a being with everlasting life, and in Metaphysics Aristotle also calls this being ‘God’.

Aristotle comes to the conclusion that God knows only himself; so he does not know this physical world that we inhabit, he does not have a plan for us, and he is not affected by us.
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Re: The Dark Knight Rises

Postby Pego » Sat Jul 21, 2012 4:58 pm

All right Marlow, you seem to know a lot more about this subject then I do, so teach me more. Would "deos" (god) be equivalent to Zeus? After all, Zeus was not an only god, he was not an omnipotent god and he was not even the Creator god. Who then would Aristotle consider as this Prime Mover?
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Re: The Dark Knight Rises

Postby Vince » Sat Jul 21, 2012 5:00 pm

JRM wrote:
Vince wrote:To all the gun control people, would you have preferred that he spray all the patrons with an oily gasoline mixture and then throw a match and lock the fire escapes on his way out? It's not about the method, ...


Would you mind citing all the instances of mass murder by dousing of gasoline? I'm sure there must be a number of them in the countries where guns aren't as accessible, because they still have the crazy people....

In the Sudan and the Congo they used machetes, in Japan they used poison gas, in the US they've used a fertilizer/diesel mixture, obviously deranged minds can use whatever is readily available. I bet you could even think of some commonly used product that could cause great harm, which was obviously the point.
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Re: The Dark Knight Rises

Postby JRM » Sat Jul 21, 2012 5:18 pm

Vince wrote:In the Sudan and the Congo they used machetes,


Carried out by a single person?

in Japan they used poison gas, in the US they've used a fertilizer/diesel mixture, obviously deranged minds can use whatever is readily available.


Those are *single* instances, and in certain cases a severe clamp-down on the product in question *was* enacted (i.e. purchasing fertilizer in the US) so it could NOT be used in the same way again.

I bet you could even think of some commonly used product that could cause great harm, which was obviously the point.


This is nonsense. These guys aren't looking for creative ways to kill people. They're looking for the fastest and least interactive way to do it. And their choice of weapon is always the same.
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Re: The Dark Knight Rises

Postby Marlow » Sat Jul 21, 2012 5:28 pm

Pego wrote:All right Marlow, you seem to know a lot more about this subject then I do, so teach me more. Would "deos" (god) be equivalent to Zeus? After all, Zeus was not an only god, he was not an omnipotent god and he was not even the Creator god. Who then would Aristotle consider as this Prime Mover?

Ari's Prime Mover was not Zeus or any of the Greek gods. It was not a who or a thing. It was wholly 'thought' ('spirit' is acceptable in this context). It was the irresistible (which is what caused other things to 'move') beauty of the universe that kept everything in harmony and balance. It was eternal and perfect, affecting all things, but affected by none.
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Re: The Dark Knight Rises

Postby kuha » Sat Jul 21, 2012 5:30 pm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aristotelian_view_of_God

Pego: This is such a popular subject that there's a Wiki entry for it--and, I'm sure, about 175 major books!
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Re: The Dark Knight Rises

Postby jazzcyclist » Sat Jul 21, 2012 5:35 pm

JRM wrote:
Vince wrote:I bet you could even think of some commonly used product that could cause great harm, which was obviously the point.


This is nonsense. These guys aren't looking for creative ways to kill people. They're looking for the fastest and least interactive way to do it. And their choice of weapon is always the same.

Come on man. You don't think the Colorado shooter was creative and willing to spend a lot of time planning his massacre? Are you implying that he booby-trapped his apartment on a whim? And what about Timothy McVeigh, he wasn't diligent in his planning? If you consider these people impulsive, I'd like to hear who you consider deliberate.
Last edited by jazzcyclist on Sat Jul 21, 2012 6:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Dark Knight Rises

Postby Pego » Sat Jul 21, 2012 5:41 pm

Marlow wrote:
Pego wrote:All right Marlow, you seem to know a lot more about this subject then I do, so teach me more. Would "deos" (god) be equivalent to Zeus? After all, Zeus was not an only god, he was not an omnipotent god and he was not even the Creator god. Who then would Aristotle consider as this Prime Mover?

Ari's Prime Mover was not Zeus or any of the Greek gods. It was not a who or a thing. It was wholly 'thought' ('spirit' is acceptable in this context). It was the irresistible (which is what caused other things to 'move') beauty of the universe that kept everything in harmony and balance. It was eternal and perfect, affecting all things, but affected by none.


Ain't metaphysics grand? An intellectually elegant concept without any empirical support and if you have standing of authority, you attract wide following for ages to come.
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Re: The Dark Knight Rises

Postby Vince » Sat Jul 21, 2012 6:17 pm

JRM wrote:
Vince wrote:

I bet you could even think of some commonly used product that could cause great harm, which was obviously the point.


This is nonsense. These guys aren't looking for creative ways to kill people. They're looking for the fastest and least interactive way to do it. And their choice of weapon is always the same.

Not always. The point is that, if guns somehow all disappear in the US under your mandate, people will find other means in a culture of violence to commit mass murder.
You can ban fertilizer too, but are you going to ban nitrogen also, which was what the fertilizer was used for to make the Oklahoma bomb.
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Re: The Dark Knight Rises

Postby Daisy » Sat Jul 21, 2012 6:26 pm

Vince wrote:if guns somehow all disappear in the US under your mandate

Are all guns semi or fully automatic? Isn't the idea to control access to specific kinds of guns, especially those designed to maim or kill a massive number of people in a very short time?
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Re: The Dark Knight Rises

Postby JRM » Sat Jul 21, 2012 6:32 pm

jazzcyclist wrote:Come on man. You don't think the Colorado shooter was creative and willing to spend a lot of time planning his massacre?


I didn't mean to imply some of these murders weren't creative. I simply said that, at the end of the day, they chose the method that will accomplish the most for least.

McVeigh, he wasn't diligent in his planning?


McVeigh used a method that, once executed, was quickly regulated so that it would become very difficult to use for that purpose again.

Vince wrote:if guns somehow all disappear in the US under your mandate,


I don't recall advocating for the banning of guns. But severe controls on their availability and use would be a huge step.

You can ban fertilizer too,


Stop with the hyperbole. No one has banned fertilizer. See my statement above.
Last edited by JRM on Sat Jul 21, 2012 6:52 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: The Dark Knight Rises

Postby kuha » Sat Jul 21, 2012 6:36 pm

Pego wrote:Ain't metaphysics grand? An intellectually elegant concept without any empirical support and if you have standing of authority, you attract wide following for ages to come.


Aristotle was a great empiricist, BUT he was also a philosopher and a rationalist. I think its safe to say that he followed the evidence as far as he could, but then used reason to fill in the gaps and to (try to) establish first causes. The details have changed radically, but science today is still trying to do that. The difference is the modern commitment to testing hypotheses rather than just "thinking them through" and asserting them.
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Re: The Dark Knight Rises

Postby Vince » Sat Jul 21, 2012 6:55 pm

JRM wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote:Come on man. You don't think the Colorado shooter was creative and willing to spend a lot of time planning his massacre?


I didn't mean to imply some of these murders weren't creative. I simply said that, at the end of the day, they chose the method that will accomplish the most for least.

McVeigh, he wasn't diligent in his planning?


McVeigh used a method that, once executed, was quickly regulated so that it would become very difficult to use for that purpose again.

Vince wrote:if guns somehow all disappear in the US under your mandate,


I don't recall advocating for the banning of guns. But severe controls on their availability and use would be a huge step.

You can ban fertilizer too,


Stop with the hyperbole. No one has banned fertilizer. See my statement above.


Stop avoiding the point that common items can cause mass murder even if you banned all guns.
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Re: The Dark Knight Rises

Postby Marlow » Sat Jul 21, 2012 6:58 pm

kuha wrote:
Pego wrote:Ain't metaphysics grand? An intellectually elegant concept without any empirical support and if you have standing of authority, you attract wide following for ages to come.

Aristotle was a great empiricist, BUT he was also a philosopher and a rationalist. I think its safe to say that he followed the evidence as far as he could, but then used reason to fill in the gaps and to (try to) establish first causes. The details have changed radically, but science today is still trying to do that. The difference is the modern commitment to testing hypotheses rather than just "thinking them through" and asserting them.

What I find amazing is that Ari tried to deduce the answer with pure logic WITHOUT resorting to 'faith' of any kind. Ya gotta admire that!
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Re: The Dark Knight Rises

Postby jazzcyclist » Sat Jul 21, 2012 7:06 pm

Daisy wrote:
Vince wrote:if guns somehow all disappear in the US under your mandate

Are all guns semi or fully automatic? Isn't the idea to control access to specific kinds of guns, especially those designed to maim or kill a massive number of people in a very short time?

The ones that you can buy quickly in the non-restrictive states are semi-automatic weapons. As I said earlier, it's not easy to buy a fully-automatic weapon anywhere in the U.S. in 2012.
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Re: The Dark Knight Rises

Postby jazzcyclist » Sat Jul 21, 2012 7:21 pm

JRM wrote:I didn't mean to imply some of these murders weren't creative. I simply said that, at the end of the day, they chose the method that will accomplish the most for least.

Well, I never said that creativity was the endgame. It was just the means to the end. Why would they have schemes that were more elaborate than what was necessary to accomplish their goals?

JRM wrote:McVeigh used a method that, once executed, was quickly regulated so that it would become very difficult to use for that purpose again.

Neither will anyone ever be able to hijack planes with box cutters and use the planes as missiles? Why would they care about this as long as their plan succeeded?
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Re: The Dark Knight Rises

Postby Vince » Sat Jul 21, 2012 8:14 pm

A little perspective, number of murders in the US in 2010 approx. 16000. and 60% to 70% caused by firearms. Deaths by Motor Vehicles in 2010 were approx 33000 in the US..... suicides in the US in 2009 were approx. 37000.

Finding accurate and current info is tough to do. Numbers vary widely.
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Re: The Dark Knight Rises

Postby jhc68 » Sat Jul 21, 2012 9:50 pm

As already noted, we all have our perspectives and none of us is likely to change our views because of what someone posts here. But I'll add that In my personal universe the cliche that Guns Don't Kill People, People KIll People is silly beyond description.

People who wield firearms (and some small percentage of people in every society are homicidal maniacs) are so much more efficient at murder and can kill so quickly and maim at such distance that it seems ludicrous to say that killers will find some other way to do their work.

In my longish and relatively dull life I have been in a few conflicts. In my youth I traded punches with other morons and came out both better and worse than the other guy. And I've been threatened at very close range by an idiot with a knife. In all those cases I got adrenalinized but I always figured (perhaps foolishly) that I had reasonable chance to defend myself or at least to run away!

But twice I have had handguns pointed at me - once in a hold-up and once in a nasty late night confusion with cops in Southeast Asia - and both times I was freaking terrified because some ***hole only had to move his finger a centimeter or so to end my life.

Here's the difference to me: on one occasion when I was teaching high school several of my colleagues and I saw a kid coming up behind another teacher with a knife in hand and we all immediately began yelling and running toward the aggressor. He ran away. If he had been carrying a gun instead of a knife we might have all been shot.

I also have seen enough of life to absolutely reject the notion that we'd all be safer if everyone had guns. Even more bizarre is the ideology that we need weapons to fight our own government... that, to me, is adolescent fantasy. If it came to that the armed forces would either mutiny and, God help us all, the government would fall, or the rebels would be decimated by weaponry so sophisticated and deadly that it is literally beyond the comprehension of most Americans.
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Re: The Dark Knight Rises

Postby mump boy » Sun Jul 22, 2012 3:32 am

jazzcyclist wrote:
Marlow wrote:
no one—really no one—anywhere on the political spectrum has the courage to speak out about the madness of unleashed guns and what they do to American life. . . . we know how he did it. Those who fight for the right of every madman and every criminal to have as many people-killing weapons as they want share moral responsibility for what happened last night—as they will when it happens again. And it will happen again.

Exactly how I feel. One of the best friends of my life was gunned done by a lunatic with an AK-47 that he bought over the counter in the 30 minutes it took for him to fill out the paperwork. Coward that he was, there's no way he had the guts to do it with anything except a gun that he could easily buy.

I feel for your loss, but I couldn't disagree more with your conclusion. I don't know if your friend was the victim of a random shooter or someone he knew personally, but there are no gun laws that can stop a determined killer. When the government takes away our freedoms (eg. gun control, Patriot Act, NDAA, etc), we lose in the long run.


we have VERY strict gun laws in uk we also have VERY low murder rate 550 in a year

http://www.channel4.com/news/uk-murder- ... t-30-years

and a tiny amount of them are with guns (42 in 2008)

compared to 13,000 in USA of which 9000 !! were with guns

http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog ... e-us-state
do the math

i know which 'freedom' i'd prefer and who's 'losing out in the long run'
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Re: The Dark Knight Rises

Postby Pego » Sun Jul 22, 2012 4:02 am

jhc68 wrote:I also have seen enough of life to absolutely reject the notion that we'd all be safer if everyone had guns. Even more bizarre is the ideology that we need weapons to fight our own government... that, to me, is adolescent fantasy. If it came to that the armed forces would either mutiny and, God help us all, the government would fall.


We would have Somalia.
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