Gun (Lack of) Control


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Re: Gun (Lack of) Control

Postby bad hammy » Thu Dec 13, 2012 2:26 pm

If mass killers were real men they'd use something a bit more sporting, like a knife or an axe. Only pussies use guns for this kind of work . . .
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Re: Gun (Lack of) Control

Postby preston » Fri Dec 14, 2012 5:12 am

bad hammy wrote:If mass killers were real men they'd use something a bit more sporting, like a knife or an axe. Only pussies use guns for this kind of work . . .

And, what would you know, "bad hammy" has a "real man" to admire...
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/12/ ... 6520121214

A knife-wielding man slashed 22 children and an adult at an elementary school in central China on Friday, state media reported, the latest in a series of attacks on schoolchildren in the country. ...

In 2010, a man slashed 28 children, two teachers and a security guard in a kindergarten in eastern China.
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Re: Gun (Lack of) Control

Postby jazzcyclist » Fri Dec 14, 2012 6:09 am

bad hammy wrote:If mass killers were real men they'd use something a bit more sporting, like a knife or an axe. Only pussies use guns for this kind of work . . .

Well, I guess that depends on what the goal of the killer is. If it's to demostrate machismo, he should use his bare hands. On the other hand, if it's to wreak as much havoc as possible, he should use a bomb, a la Timothy McVeigh.
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Re: Gun (Lack of) Control

Postby guru » Fri Dec 14, 2012 7:52 am

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Re: Gun (Lack of) Control

Postby jazzcyclist » Fri Dec 14, 2012 9:00 am

Is mass murder now the cool thing to do for delusional nutjobs? Is there a copycat syndrome to this phenomenon?

Also, why hasn't Al Qaeda struck in this manner? Afterall, it's virtually impossible to prevent in an open society. Did they set the bar to high on 9/11/01 and now shooting a couple of dozen people seems to small for them?
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Re: Gun (Lack of) Control

Postby Marlow » Fri Dec 14, 2012 9:32 am

jazzcyclist wrote:Also, why hasn't Al Qaeda struck in this manner? Afterall, it's virtually impossible to prevent in an open society. Did they set the bar to high on 9/11/01 and now shooting a couple of dozen people seems to small for them?

Random civilian bombings continue apace in the Mid-East. Trying it here will get more 'response' than they can handle (though, if they thought they could get past Homeland Security, they'd certainly try). For all the ineptitude we accuse our gov't of, our intelligence apparatus is best in the world by far. Hundreds of attacks are secretly prevented every year. I had a 'classified security briefing' about a year after 9/11 and even I was astounded what we had in place and could do. That's after 20 years of dealing with spooks in the military. We are hyper-sophisticated.
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Re: Gun (Lack of) Control

Postby preston » Fri Dec 14, 2012 9:58 am

Mass Killers are not cowards, according to the pros they're failures. And, when you consider the direction in which society is headed (everyone expecting/demanding to be important or a bigshot of some sort [twitter,facebook, youtube, et.al] when it's impossible that they can/will be) ... expect many more mass killings, and hope that you and yours are not victims. But, it will happen again. And, again.

Here's an abstract on what the professionals have to say about it.
http://www.academia.edu/1199492/Hegemon ... ted_States


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 831_2.html
Serial killers, forensic psychiatrists say, derive sexual gratification from their killings. The Ted Bundys, the Jeffrey Dahmers, the John Wayne Gacys -- they don't want to be caught. They often enjoy taunting police. The violence is, in its own perverse way, about pleasure.

"Serial killers are more like drug addicts than anything else," Kaye says. "They need to ramp up the excitement each time, they're getting reinforcement from their acts. They're running on the dopamine side of the brain. They're running on highs."

It's not that way for mass killers -- guys who take out a gun and try to kill as many people as possible. They're not looking for highs -- they're depressed, angry and humiliated. They tend to be rejected in some romantic relationship, or are sexually incompetent, are paranoid, and their resentment builds. They develop shooting fantasies for months or years, stockpiling dreams and ammunition. The event that finally sets them off, Welner says, is usually anticlimactic -- an argument, a small personal loss that magnifies a sense of catastrophic failure.

"But they don't 'snap,' as you so often hear people say," Welner says. "It's more like a hinge swings open, and all this anger comes out."

They plan everything about the killings, he says, except how to get away.

"It's about suicide," Welner says. "It's about tying one's masculinity to destruction."

It's also rare for them to be truly psychotic, he says. Psychotics hear voices and people from outer space and talking dogs.
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Re: Gun (Lack of) Control

Postby Pego » Fri Dec 14, 2012 10:01 am



It is totally incomrehensible to me that somebody would want to massacre a bunch of 5-year olds.
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Re: Gun (Lack of) Control

Postby guru » Fri Dec 14, 2012 10:02 am

27 dead, 18 kids. Insanity
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Re: Gun (Lack of) Control

Postby JRM » Fri Dec 14, 2012 10:14 am

Pego wrote:


It is totally incomrehensible to me that somebody would want to massacre a bunch of 5-year olds.


Didn't you hear? They're *brave* individuals... :roll:
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Re: Gun (Lack of) Control

Postby jazzcyclist » Fri Dec 14, 2012 10:31 am

Marlow wrote:Random civilian bombings continue apace in the Mid-East. Trying it here will get more 'response' than they can handle (though, if they thought they could get past Homeland Security, they'd certainly try). For all the ineptitude we accuse our gov't of, our intelligence apparatus is best in the world by far. Hundreds of attacks are secretly prevented every year. I had a 'classified security briefing' about a year after 9/11 and even I was astounded what we had in place and could do. That's after 20 years of dealing with spooks in the military. We are hyper-sophisticated.

Al Qaeda doesn't have problems getting people in this country, it's just that all their people post-9/11 are incompetent. Have you forgotten about the shoe bomber, the underwear bomber, the Times Square bomber, etc.? Evidently, they lost their best and brightest on 9/11/01, so why do they give these nincompoops simpler assignments? Any useful idiot can fire a gun randomly into a crowd, but it takes a lot more intelligence to successfully build and detonate a bomb.

By the way, we'll never be able to keep bad guys out of this country as long as we have a porous southern border.
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Re: Gun (Lack of) Control

Postby preston » Fri Dec 14, 2012 10:50 am

JRM wrote:
Pego wrote:


It is totally incomrehensible to me that somebody would want to massacre a bunch of 5-year olds.


Didn't you hear? They're *brave* individuals... :roll:

I'm sure the killers think they are "brave"; that they finally "stood up" for themselves after being humiliated for the last time. Maybe they felt they were being "brave" to kill because their lover left or they lost their job or someone questioned one of their formulas on an internet messageboard. Nah, the messageboard guy would probably only get pissed; stewing and waiting for the next indignifying episode - maybe a late term paper. :roll:
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Re: Gun (Lack of) Control

Postby gh » Fri Dec 14, 2012 11:07 am

at this point I'm sure you'll understand why I'm locking this down for a day or two until the passion passes. I don't want to give anybody a forum to say something that will really piss me off.
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Re: Gun (Lack of) Control

Postby preston » Mon Dec 17, 2012 9:15 am

It seems that a lot of politicians are willing to review the politics of gun control/advocacy in the wake of the Newtown, CT school shooting. Something about the players talking seems to be different, but time will tell if anything changes.
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Re: Gun (Lack of) Control

Postby jeremyp » Mon Dec 17, 2012 11:40 am

preston wrote:It seems that a lot of politicians are willing to review the politics of gun control/advocacy in the wake of the Newtown, CT school shooting. Something about the players talking seems to be different, but time will tell if anything changes.

Nothing much will change. We might get another assault weapon ban, but we all remember how easy that was to get around. Banning gun sales at gun shows would help as well. Now there's a drum beat about "the mentally ill" but that will soon fade as well. Most violence is not perpetrated by someone with a diagnosis but by someone with pent up rage triggered by something unpredictable. We're a violent society, with many stressors, and many angry inadequate folks. We can tighten access to guns, and tighten security at schools, but these incidents will continue. We have pretty well stopped Plane hijackings, government building killings, but that's a much narrower and doable problem.
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Re: Gun (Lack of) Control

Postby Marlow » Mon Dec 17, 2012 12:49 pm

I am hard-core anti-gun, but I too fear no substantial progress will be made in deterring an unending parade of horrific mass-murders. It's too ingrained in America (Wild West syndrome) that violence IS a proper answer to our problems. In 200 years our consciousness will be raised sufficiently to entertain rational discourse on the subject, but certainly not for the foreseeable future.
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Re: Gun (Lack of) Control

Postby JRM » Mon Dec 17, 2012 1:45 pm

jeremyp wrote:We can tighten access to guns, and tighten security at schools, but these incidents will continue.


"These incidents" almost never happen in other countries where gun access and ownership is rigorously controlled. Meanwhile, there have been about two or three other incidents in the US *since* the school shooting. To suggest the problem will "never" go away and shrug is very insincere.

We have pretty well stopped Plane hijackings, government building killings, but that's a much narrower and doable problem.


Or perhaps this is indicative of perceived priorities...
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Re: Gun (Lack of) Control

Postby Marlow » Mon Dec 17, 2012 1:51 pm

JRM wrote:To suggest the problem will "never" go away and shrug is very insincere.

What I am saying is that the USA does not have the WILL to control guns! Skyjackings, terrorist plots, etc., YES. Real gun control, NO.
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Re: Gun (Lack of) Control

Postby preston » Mon Dec 17, 2012 2:03 pm

Unabomber Ted didn't use a gun, Timothy McVeigh didn't use a gun, Eric "Atlanta Bomber" Rudolph didn't use a gun. People angry enough and willing enough will kill. Digital letter bombs, where you can send apps/emails/texts to someones phone/tablet/laptop, are coming...

I'm neither gun fan nor foe. Their presence or elimination won't raise the meter too high with me ... Guns kill people and people kill people as far as I'm concerned. But, I don't think people kill because of "gun culture"; I believe they kill because we seem to be training people in how to become sociopaths and the gun is just the most convenient tool to redress real and perceived grievances in a way that is "rewarded" to some as heroic. Our problem, well one of them, is that we don't know how to deal with anger or resolve conflicts (we can argue that human beings never could [Cain, Elisha...with help from GOD... kills 42 children for making fun of his Bald head 2 Kings 2:22-23, ethnic-cleansing] and that Americans never could [Wild West, Burr/Hamilton duel]). We've perverted "freedom" into "I get to do what ever I want to do whenever I want to do it and no one can stop me or tell me different". And, at some point, with fewer and fewer common social norms, "freedoms" are gonna collide. They have to. I just don't think it's possible to have absolute freedom and community values.

The mistake humans make is the same mistake humans always make and it's arrogance; it's thinking that because we can go to the moon ... that we're anything other than the creatures we've been from the beginnings and for thousands of the years. Animals.
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Re: Gun (Lack of) Control

Postby guru » Mon Dec 17, 2012 2:21 pm

JRM wrote:
jeremyp wrote:We can tighten access to guns, and tighten security at schools, but these incidents will continue.


"These incidents" almost never happen in other countries where gun access and ownership is rigorously controlled. Meanwhile, there have been about two or three other incidents in the US *since* the school shooting. To suggest the problem will "never" go away and shrug is very insincere.



Worth noting the deadliest school massacre in US history did not involve a single gun.


Mentally unstable people bent on mayhem, will create mayhem
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Re: Gun (Lack of) Control

Postby Marlow » Mon Dec 17, 2012 2:51 pm

preston wrote:People angry enough and willing enough will kill.

I agree. But guns make it so easy to be a killer that without guns many (most?) are simply too craven to go through with it. Why must we make it so EASY to be a mass-murderer?
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Re: Gun (Lack of) Control

Postby JRM » Mon Dec 17, 2012 3:05 pm

guru wrote:Worth noting the deadliest school massacre in US history did not involve a single gun.


Not really worth noting, since the rest of them involved lots of guns.

Mentally unstable people bent on mayhem, will create mayhem


There are mentally-unstable people everywhere. There is not easy access to guns everywhere. Of course, one of the other differences is that in most other countries, there is also easily-accessible healthcare.
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Re: Gun (Lack of) Control

Postby guru » Mon Dec 17, 2012 3:38 pm

JRM wrote:
There are mentally-unstable people everywhere. Of course, one of the other differences is that in most other countries, there is also easily-accessible healthcare.



Almost without fail these madmen come from wealthy backgrounds, including this one.
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Re: Gun (Lack of) Control

Postby odelltrclan » Mon Dec 17, 2012 3:44 pm

Marlow wrote:
preston wrote:People angry enough and willing enough will kill.

I agree. But guns make it so easy to be a killer that without guns many (most?) are simply too craven to go through with it. Why must we make it so EASY to be a mass-murderer?


People kill.

Largely ignored by the mainstream media are events where having guns have saved people's lives. I have read about a half dozen in just the last year where someone thwarted potential murders because they had something to defend themselves with.

In June 2012 in Phoenix a break and enter criminal was thwarted by a 14 year old who was babysitting with siblings who had a gun and was trained to use it.

In the Clackamas Town Center Mall incident, many more lives would have been taken had someone who had a concealed carrying permit not stood brave and stopped the gunman.

There are many more examples. There are going to be crazy people who try to kill. They will find other ways because they are deranged sick people.

We have seen examples in history where guns are removed from citizens and then the governments oppress. Examples include Stalin, Tse-Tung, and Hitler. Tse-Tung disarmed the masses and then proceeded to murder something like 40 million people who disagreed with his politics. Do you really think this country is immune to something like that happening here?

Alcohol kills far more people than guns. How about taking that away? Be careful for what you wish for.
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Re: Gun (Lack of) Control

Postby Conor Dary » Mon Dec 17, 2012 4:06 pm

odelltrclan wrote:

We have seen examples in history where guns are removed from citizens and then the governments oppress. Examples include Stalin, Tse-Tung, and Hitler. Tse-Tung disarmed the masses and then proceeded to murder something like 40 million people who disagreed with his politics. Do you really think this country is immune to something like that happening here?



I knew someone would go off the deep end....Stalin, HItler, Genghis Khan!

So now we are going to fight the US Government? They have nukes, so should US citizens be allowed to have those?

Of course the mother of the killer was deep into this sort of nonsense.

    “Last time we visited with her in person we talked about prepping and you know, are you ready for what can happen down the line when the economy collapses,” said the gunman’s aunt, Marsha Lanza.

    The reporter asked, “Survivalist kind of thing?”

    “Yea,” said Marsha Lanza.


http://www1.whdh.com/news/articles/loca ... -shooting/
Last edited by Conor Dary on Mon Dec 17, 2012 4:12 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Gun (Lack of) Control

Postby Daisy » Mon Dec 17, 2012 4:07 pm

odelltrclan wrote:Largely ignored by the mainstream media are events where having guns have saved people's lives.

How many of them need a semi-automatic to achieve this? Did they need specialty bullets too (Flesh-shredding or armor piercing)? The problem with this debate is there is always a starting premise that gun control is synonymous with no guns. That is a red herring and false.
Last edited by Daisy on Mon Dec 17, 2012 4:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Gun (Lack of) Control

Postby TN1965 » Mon Dec 17, 2012 4:15 pm

odelltrclan wrote: People kill.


Then why not "control" people instead of controlling guns?

Require psychiatric assessments at regular intervals from an early age, with increased frequency for individuals who show any sign of trouble. Then lock up the "worst" cases in mental institutes before they commit any violent crime.

Deny drivers license or any other government issued privilege if they refuse to participate. Better yet, lock them up in prison if they do not cooperate.

This does not totally eliminate mass killing, but would drastically reduce it.

How many people would support this as an alternative to gun control?
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Re: Gun (Lack of) Control

Postby Pego » Mon Dec 17, 2012 4:17 pm

odelltrclan wrote:I have read about a half dozen in just the last year where someone thwarted potential murders because they had something to defend themselves with.


10,000+ gun deaths in the country in 1 year vs 6 deaths thwarted

Thank you for the insightful math.
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Re: Gun (Lack of) Control

Postby mump boy » Mon Dec 17, 2012 4:25 pm

odelltrclan wrote:
Marlow wrote:
preston wrote:People angry enough and willing enough will kill.

I agree. But guns make it so easy to be a killer that without guns many (most?) are simply too craven to go through with it. Why must we make it so EASY to be a mass-murderer?


People kill.

Largely ignored by the mainstream media are events where having guns have saved people's lives. I have read about a half dozen in just the last year where someone thwarted potential murders because they had something to defend themselves with.

In June 2012 in Phoenix a break and enter criminal was thwarted by a 14 year old who was babysitting with siblings who had a gun and was trained to use it.

In the Clackamas Town Center Mall incident, many more lives would have been taken had someone who had a concealed carrying permit not stood brave and stopped the gunman.

There are many more examples. There are going to be crazy people who try to kill. They will find other ways because they are deranged sick people.

We have seen examples in history where guns are removed from citizens and then the governments oppress. Examples include Stalin, Tse-Tung, and Hitler. Tse-Tung disarmed the masses and then proceeded to murder something like 40 million people who disagreed with his politics. Do you really think this country is immune to something like that happening here?

Alcohol kills far more people than guns. How about taking that away? Be careful for what you wish for.


Is this some kind of Onion parody ??
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Re: Gun (Lack of) Control

Postby Daisy » Mon Dec 17, 2012 4:36 pm

odelltrclan wrote:Alcohol kills far more people than guns. How about taking that away? Be careful for what you wish for.


I just noticed this, and yes, for some people, sure. Or their cars. I'm thinking that any state that regularly has people being caught for DUI probably needs a lot of what ever you're worried about losing.

Paul G. Barber Jr., 52, of Stoughton, has been arrested 21 times for DUI in Wisconsin and other states over the last three decades.

And these examples of chronic DUI offenders come up in the Wisconsin State Journal all the time.
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Re: Gun (Lack of) Control

Postby odelltrclan » Mon Dec 17, 2012 4:39 pm

Pego wrote:
odelltrclan wrote:I have read about a half dozen in just the last year where someone thwarted potential murders because they had something to defend themselves with.


10,000+ gun deaths in the country in 1 year vs 6 deaths thwarted

Thank you for the insightful math.


Your logic is lacking. You presume these deaths would not have happened had there been no guns. Most of the murders that were committed will still be committed, guns or no guns. People who want to kill others will simply move on to the next available way of doing so.

Daisy, this thread was about guns in general, not assault weapons. I have already heard leftist talking heads in the media today talking about confiscation of all guns, not just assault weapons.
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Re: Gun (Lack of) Control

Postby Conor Dary » Mon Dec 17, 2012 4:43 pm

odelltrclan wrote:

Daisy, this thread was about guns in general, not assault weapons. I have already heard leftist talking heads in the media today talking about confiscation of all guns, not just assault weapons.


And I heard the world will end on Friday...whom to believe?????

http://www.foxnews.com/science/2012/12/ ... -will-end/
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Re: Gun (Lack of) Control

Postby odelltrclan » Mon Dec 17, 2012 4:44 pm

TN1965 wrote:
odelltrclan wrote: People kill.


Then why not "control" people instead of controlling guns?

Require psychiatric assessments at regular intervals from an early age, with increased frequency for individuals who show any sign of trouble. Then lock up the "worst" cases in mental institutes before they commit any violent crime.

Deny drivers license or any other government issued privilege if they refuse to participate. Better yet, lock them up in prison if they do not cooperate.

This does not totally eliminate mass killing, but would drastically reduce it.

How many people would support this as an alternative to gun control?


Yes, of course. The problem lies with a very very few. Sick people. Sick minds. We need to find ways to identify those people and prevent them from themselves. But, it can never happen 100%. Many first serious signs of trouble I suspect will be when the "event" occurs.
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Re: Gun (Lack of) Control

Postby Daisy » Mon Dec 17, 2012 4:49 pm

odelltrclan wrote:I have already heard leftist talking heads in the media today talking about confiscation of all guns, not just assault weapons.

Conveniently promoted by the right to bring the conversation to a grinding halt. As I said, a red herring.
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Re: Gun (Lack of) Control

Postby Pego » Mon Dec 17, 2012 4:51 pm

odelltrclan wrote: Most of the murders that were committed will still be committed, guns or no guns.


I will argue to the contrary. There is a mountain of crime stats indicating it (do not ask me to provide it, it is available).
BTW, your response to Daisy is a typical "ad hominem" (those lefties!) attack. This country needs sensible drug control laws. I for one do not want to confiscate your precious guns, only the assault weapons plus having evidence of gun ownership (just like registering your house, car, wife, kids...).
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Re: Gun (Lack of) Control

Postby jazzcyclist » Mon Dec 17, 2012 5:02 pm

I'll bet gun dealers are making a fortune these days. Every time politicians like Michael Bloomberg and Dianne Feinstein open their mouths, gun dealers go cha-ching $$$$$.
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Re: Gun (Lack of) Control

Postby odelltrclan » Mon Dec 17, 2012 5:06 pm

Pego wrote:
odelltrclan wrote: Most of the murders that were committed will still be committed, guns or no guns.


I will argue to the contrary. There is a mountain of crime stats indicating it (do not ask me to provide it, it is available).
BTW, your response to Daisy is a typical "ad hominem" (those lefties!) attack. This country needs sensible drug control laws. I for one do not want to confiscate your precious guns, only the assault weapons plus having evidence of gun ownership (just like registering your house, car, wife, kids...).


The primary person I mentioned holds himself out to be a "leftist" so, no, this was not an "ad hominem" attack as you claim. I have heard him say so myself. Just stating the facts. And Daisy, who is stopping the conversations? Heard today certain people calling for NRA members to be killed for supporting the right to have guns. Who really is whacked? Pego, why are you bringing up drug control? Is that what you meant? I agree with sensible laws. Not confiscation of guns as certain people are suggesting. By the way, I don't own any guns. But I am all for the right to do so. If I am now viewed as an "extremist" for believing citizens have this right then so be it!
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Re: Gun (Lack of) Control

Postby guru » Mon Dec 17, 2012 5:11 pm

Whatever you think of the gun issue, one thing is certain - the media is out of control. They got exactly nothing right on Friday, including the name of the shooter. I hope Ryan Lanza sues the AP into bankruptcy.
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Re: Gun (Lack of) Control

Postby Conor Dary » Mon Dec 17, 2012 5:21 pm

Daisy wrote:
odelltrclan wrote:I have already heard leftist talking heads in the media today talking about confiscation of all guns, not just assault weapons.

Conveniently promoted by the right to bring the conversation to a grinding halt. As I said, a red herring.


Of course, it is. What else is new?
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Re: Gun (Lack of) Control

Postby Pego » Mon Dec 17, 2012 5:24 pm

odelltrclan wrote: Pego, why are you bringing up drug control? Is that what you meant?


Of course I meant gun control and you know it. That is being discussed here.
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