Gun (Lack of) Control


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Re: The Dark Knight Rises

Postby Vince » Mon Jul 23, 2012 7:37 am

jeremyp wrote:
Vince wrote: What??? California has stricter gun laws and is in no way less violent.


Not according to this chart. http://www.worldlifeexpectancy.com/usa/ ... death-rate. California ranked 34th. New York (47th) is also rated lower. Interesting as they have many large urban areas.

It isn't according to the U.S. census.

http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/ ... 2s0308.pdf

My chart focused on gun deaths. Yours on murder per se. Although I'm never sure if per capita surveys are useful as the larger the population the more diluted the results. It's more useful to look at Large cities across the world. I'll try to see if I can get figures.
Here's a sobering statistic from 2006-2007:
People living in 50 of the largest U.S. cities accounted for 67% of all firearm homicides, and most involved children and teens aged 10 to 19

Read more: http://healthland.time.com/2011/05/16/c ... z21SUBAZ6J
Our minority children are killing off our minority children.

The US also has a 3100 km border with a 3rd world country. My friend, a larger statistical population increases accuracy, but also comparing apples to apples is more accurate.
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Re: The Dark Knight Rises

Postby jeremyp » Mon Jul 23, 2012 8:22 am

Vince wrote: The US also has a 3100 km border with a 3rd world country. My friend, a larger statistical population increases accuracy, but also comparing apples to apples is more accurate.
As to larger statistical populations and accuracy there is the issue of large states being large due to large cities and gun violence increases in urban areas and especially inner cities. So comparing Alaska to California on a per capita basis doesn't necessarily tell an accurate picture. While we deplore the mass shootings that seem to often be non minority on non minority the media largely ignores the daily inner city killings that probably exceed the Aurora shooting by 2x.
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Re: The Dark Knight Rises

Postby JRM » Mon Jul 23, 2012 9:49 am

Vince wrote:
JRM wrote: Exactly what kind of ingenious weapon do you think a neuroscience Ph.D. student going to come up with?


A match, balloons filled with oil/gas, a blocked exit in a crowded theater.


How heavy do you think the balloons would be in order to have enough gas to have a significant impact (besides setting off panic)? Also, as I mentioned before, after the first balloon or two are lobbed, people will react: some will say "Stop it!", some will flee, and some are quite likely to storm him (because he doesn't present a bodily threat if he's just throwing balloons).

Vince wrote:
JRM wrote:I see. You were quoting random statistics for fun. No problem, then.


PS: Look up the meaning of perspective.


Please explain what "perspective" you were trying to demonstrate, because it's unclear to me. And also, what do motor vehicle-related deaths and suicides have to do with gun-related murders?

By the way, would you mind doing one more bit of research: can you find the number of murders by gasoline-filled-balloon dousing that occur in the US each year? That would provide some additional perspective for us.
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Re: Very Ugly Gun Thread

Postby rsb2 » Mon Jul 23, 2012 11:03 am

@ JRM
Stop talking like a crazy Canadian, eh !
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Re: Very Ugly Gun Thread

Postby Bijan » Mon Jul 23, 2012 1:29 pm

I have a friend who moved to Centennial, Col. circa 2008, who was in the theatre when the mayhem occurred. She's interviewed in an online podcast for local radio:

under "Podcast:

http://www.95sx.com/

Legislators will do no more to ban or restrict (non-hunting) firearms from easy access and street use, than they did when their fellow lawmakers and staff JFK, RFK, Presidents Ford and Reagan, James Brady, and Rep. Gabi Gifford were victim to them.
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Re: Very Ugly Gun Thread

Postby jazzcyclist » Mon Jul 23, 2012 3:34 pm

Well, here's some depressing news for gun-control advocates courtesy a Gallup poll just referenced on MSNBC's Hardball.. According to this poll, attitudes of Americans have steadily become more pro-gun and less pro-gun control over the last 20 years, and young people today are more pro-gun than their parents and grandparents. On just about every other major issue (eg. gay rights, race, healthcare, drugs, etc .), liberals are winning the hearts and minds of young people, but on the issue of guns, it is the NRA that is winning the hearts and minds of young people. Perhaps this is why American politicians are loathe to touch the third rail of gun control.
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Re: Very Ugly Gun Thread

Postby Daisy » Mon Jul 23, 2012 5:52 pm

jazzcyclist wrote:it is the NRA that is winning the hearts and minds of young people.

No doubt, they have a well coordinated campaign. Look how well Joe Camel did for cancer sticks.
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Re: Very Ugly Gun Thread

Postby JRM » Mon Jul 23, 2012 6:18 pm

jazzcyclist wrote:Well, here's some depressing news for gun-control advocates courtesy a Gallup poll just referenced on MSNBC's Hardball..


I would say that's depressing news for American society, but what do I know -- I'm just a crazy Canadian.
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Re: Very Ugly Gun Thread

Postby JRM » Mon Jul 23, 2012 6:24 pm

Meanwhile, in another part of the country... The next worst thing about mass shootings is the copy-cat mentality.

====
... A trooper stopped Timothy Courtois, 49, for doing 112 mph on the Maine Turnpike Sunday morning, police said. Motorists had reported seeing a speeding Mustang with its flashers on.

Upon pulling him over, police found an assault rifle, four handguns and several boxes of ammunition, they said. Also found inside his car were recent news clippings of the mass shooting at the Colorado movie theater, police said.

Police said Courtois then admitted to police he had attended the Batman movie at the Cinemagic Theater in Saco Saturday night with a loaded gun in his backpack. He also told authorities that he was on his way to Derry, N.H. to shoot a former employer.

http://www.wcvb.com/news/local/Police-M ... z21TXt4aKl
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Re: Very Ugly Gun Thread

Postby jazzcyclist » Tue Jul 24, 2012 4:30 am

Daisy wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote:it is the NRA that is winning the hearts and minds of young people.

No doubt, they have a well coordinated campaign. Look how well Joe Camel did for cancer sticks.

One observation that someone made yesterday is that the NRA isn't winning over all these young people by themselves, rather they are getting a lot of help from the video game industry and Hollywood's action movie industry.
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Re: Very Ugly Gun Thread

Postby Daisy » Tue Jul 24, 2012 5:43 am

jazzcyclist wrote:they are getting a lot of help from the video game industry and Hollywood's action movie industry.

I can buy that argument. Similar to teens weaving in and out of traffic too. It's become habit.
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Re: Very Ugly Gun Thread

Postby guru » Tue Jul 24, 2012 2:19 pm

Very cool to see that Christian Bale has been in Colorado visiting the victims - privately and with no media notice(news got out when victim posted photo)

http://www.tmz.com/2012/07/24/christian ... -colorado/
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Re: Very Ugly Gun Thread

Postby jazzcyclist » Tue Jul 24, 2012 7:06 pm

Congressman Carolyn McCarthy, a.k.a. "The Gun Lady", wants Obama to ban guns by executive order. Eveidently, she had the same civics teacher as Sarah Palin if she thinks a President can use executives order to repeal constitutional amendments, but even an attempt to do such a thing would be the greatest gift he could give Romney.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/07/2 ... tions-2012
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Re: Very Ugly Gun Thread

Postby jeremyp » Tue Jul 24, 2012 7:17 pm

jazzcyclist wrote:Congressman Carolyn McCarthy, a.k.a. "The Gun Lady", wants Obama to ban guns by executive order. Eveidently, she had the same civics teacher as Sarah Palin if she thinks a President can use executives order to repeal constitutional amendments, but even an attempt to do such a thing would be the greatest gift he could give Romney.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/07/2 ... tions-2012


Which is why it was so idiotic and ignorant of the masses to rush out and buy guns because the NRA said Obama would ban guns. They (the NRA) knew he couldn't; the arms industry knew he couldn't; but the sheeple bought it hook line and sinker. More billions for the gun folks.
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Re: Very Ugly Gun Thread

Postby jazzcyclist » Tue Jul 24, 2012 7:41 pm

jeremyp wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote:Congressman Carolyn McCarthy, a.k.a. "The Gun Lady", wants Obama to ban guns by executive order. Eveidently, she had the same civics teacher as Sarah Palin if she thinks a President can use executives order to repeal constitutional amendments, but even an attempt to do such a thing would be the greatest gift he could give Romney.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/07/2 ... tions-2012


Which is why it was so idiotic and ignorant of the masses to rush out and buy guns because the NRA said Obama would ban guns. They (the NRA) knew he couldn't; the arms industry knew he couldn't; but the sheeple bought it hook line and sinker. More billions for the gun folks.

Perhaps she's getting money under the table from the NRA to say carzy stuff like this.
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Re: Very Ugly Gun Thread

Postby Bijan » Wed Jul 25, 2012 11:13 am

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Re: Very Ugly Gun Thread

Postby jeremyp » Wed Jul 25, 2012 12:22 pm

Bijan wrote:Alleged Aurora shooter no whiz kid:

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/sto ... 56467518/1

Which makes one wonder who they are allowing in to the program? The fact that he was mediocre and struggled may indicate a motive. Failure attempting notoriety.
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Re: Very Ugly Gun Thread

Postby Conor Dary » Wed Jul 25, 2012 1:13 pm

jeremyp wrote:
Bijan wrote:Alleged Aurora shooter no whiz kid:

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/sto ... 56467518/1

Which makes one wonder who they are allowing in to the program? The fact that he was mediocre and struggled may indicate a motive. Failure attempting notoriety.


I guess so, but the guy is a nutter no matter what. School is not going well, geez I think I will spend thousands of dollars on guns and ammo. He should have spent more time on his studies and less time, and money, on planning a massacre.
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Re: Very Ugly Gun Thread

Postby jeremyp » Thu Jul 26, 2012 7:23 am

Conor Dary wrote:
jeremyp wrote:
Bijan wrote:Alleged Aurora shooter no whiz kid:

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/sto ... 56467518/1

Which makes one wonder who they are allowing in to the program? The fact that he was mediocre and struggled may indicate a motive. Failure attempting notoriety.


I guess so, but the guy is a nutter no matter what. School is not going well, geez I think I will spend thousands of dollars on guns and ammo. He should have spent more time on his studies and less time, and money, on planning a massacre.

Most of these shooters are either insane or have deeply rooted inferiority complexes, or both. The most dangerous human in society is not the nutter but the depressed/suicidal individual who wants to take out others (projecting his own hatred of their "normalcy") before killing himself. The number of men taking out their families, and then killing themselves, is astounding.
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Re: Very Ugly Gun Thread

Postby Daisy » Thu Jul 26, 2012 7:28 am

jeremyp wrote:Which makes one wonder who they are allowing in to the program?


The best in the lab are not always the ones with the high GPA. Sounds like they took a risk on a student that appeared to be motivated. Obviously they realised their mistake and were about to ask him to leave. That normally means writing a thesis towards a masters or, in his case, withdrawing from the program.
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Re: Very Ugly Gun Thread

Postby mump boy » Thu Jul 26, 2012 10:06 am

jeremyp wrote:
Conor Dary wrote:
jeremyp wrote:
Bijan wrote:Alleged Aurora shooter no whiz kid:

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/sto ... 56467518/1

Which makes one wonder who they are allowing in to the program? The fact that he was mediocre and struggled may indicate a motive. Failure attempting notoriety.


I guess so, but the guy is a nutter no matter what. School is not going well, geez I think I will spend thousands of dollars on guns and ammo. He should have spent more time on his studies and less time, and money, on planning a massacre.

Most of these shooters are either insane or have deeply rooted inferiority complexes, or both. The most dangerous human in society is not the nutter but the depressed/suicidal individual who wants to take out others (projecting his own hatred of their "normalcy") before killing himself. The number of men taking out their families, and then killing themselves, is astounding.


Thank god he's got the freedom to buy guns and make his dream come true :D
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Re: Very Ugly Gun Thread

Postby Daisy » Thu Jul 26, 2012 10:24 am

I heard this quote from Romney, about the Colorado gunmen, this morning.
Well this person shouldn't have had any kind of weapons and bombs and other devices and it was illegal for him to have many of those things already. But he had them. And so we can sometimes hope that just changing the law will make all bad things go away. It won't.

Has he moved the bar on gun control? What illegal 'things' was Romney referring to?
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Re: Very Ugly Gun Thread

Postby Conor Dary » Thu Jul 26, 2012 10:30 am

Daisy wrote:I heard this quote from Romney, about the Colorado gunmen, this morning.
Well this person shouldn't have had any kind of weapons and bombs and other devices and it was illegal for him to have many of those things already. But he had them. And so we can sometimes hope that just changing the law will make all bad things go away. It won't.

Has he moved the bar on gun control? What illegal 'things' was Romney referring to?


Who knows?

    Despite Mitt Romney’s Claims, Aurora Suspect’s Gun Purchases Were Legal

    Mitt Romney brushed off suggestions that the Aurora, Colo. theater shooting should renew a national conversation on gun control Wednesday, saying that it “was illegal” for accused Aurora shooter James Holmes to have the “kind of weapons and bombs and other devices” he used in his deadly attack.

    Not exactly. Holmes legally purchased the weapons used in the attack, and legally bought thousands of rounds of ammunition online. One of the guns would have been illegal under the federal assault weapons ban, which expired in 2004.

http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.c ... gun_pu.php
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Re: Very Ugly Gun Thread

Postby jazzcyclist » Thu Jul 26, 2012 10:38 am

I think European-style gun laws would reduce spontaneous gun murders (eg. crimes of passion, bar room brawls, etc.), IF you could get guns out of circulation, but they wouldn't stop determined nutjobs who are willing to put a lot of time and thought into carrying their acts. They might effect what weapons the nutjob uses, but that's about it.
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Re: Very Ugly Gun Thread

Postby jeremyp » Thu Jul 26, 2012 10:54 am

jazzcyclist wrote:I think European-style gun laws would reduce spontaneous gun murders (eg. crimes of passion, bar room brawls, etc.), IF you could get guns out of circulation, but they wouldn't stop determined nutjobs who are willing to put a lot of time and thought into carrying their acts. They might effect what weapons the nutjob uses, but that's about it.

And Norway was a case in point. I believe he got his weapons through the internet.
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Re: Very Ugly Gun Thread

Postby JRM » Thu Jul 26, 2012 2:19 pm

jazzcyclist wrote:I think European-style gun laws would reduce spontaneous gun murders (eg. crimes of passion, bar room brawls, etc.), IF you could get guns out of circulation, but they wouldn't stop determined nutjobs who are willing to put a lot of time and thought into carrying their acts. They might effect what weapons the nutjob uses, but that's about it.


Of course if someone is determined enough to do something, they will find a way to do it. But the harder you make it to do whatever it is they want to do, the more you'll find that the "determined" nutjobs really aren't as determined as you thought.

Not everyone who can pick up a gun at Walmart and go shoot 20 people is a "determined nut-job" who will stop at nothing to carry out their evil plan. Rather, as you suggest, those are "crimes of passion" -- literally shoot first, think later.
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Re: Very Ugly Gun Thread

Postby jazzcyclist » Thu Jul 26, 2012 3:00 pm

JRM wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote:I think European-style gun laws would reduce spontaneous gun murders (eg. crimes of passion, bar room brawls, etc.), IF you could get guns out of circulation, but they wouldn't stop determined nutjobs who are willing to put a lot of time and thought into carrying their acts. They might effect what weapons the nutjob uses, but that's about it.


Of course if someone is determined enough to do something, they will find a way to do it. But the harder you make it to do whatever it is they want to do, the more you'll find that the "determined" nutjobs really aren't as determined as you thought.

Not everyone who can pick up a gun at Walmart and go shoot 20 people is a "determined nut-job" who will stop at nothing to carry out their evil plan. Rather, as you suggest, those are "crimes of passion" -- literally shoot first, think later.

I don't consider the spontaneous murderer to be determined, but I certainly think that the vast majority of mass murderers are (eg. Colorado, Virginia Tech, Norway, etc.). Most mass murderers don't carry out their acts on a whim or in a fit of anger, and usually the evidence they leave behind proves this (eg. email, websites, magazine and newspapaer clippings, etc.). Do you think stricter gun laws would have prevented the Colorado shootings?
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Re: Very Ugly Gun Thread

Postby mump boy » Thu Jul 26, 2012 4:23 pm

jazzcyclist wrote:
JRM wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote:I think European-style gun laws would reduce spontaneous gun murders (eg. crimes of passion, bar room brawls, etc.), IF you could get guns out of circulation, but they wouldn't stop determined nutjobs who are willing to put a lot of time and thought into carrying their acts. They might effect what weapons the nutjob uses, but that's about it.


Of course if someone is determined enough to do something, they will find a way to do it. But the harder you make it to do whatever it is they want to do, the more you'll find that the "determined" nutjobs really aren't as determined as you thought.

Not everyone who can pick up a gun at Walmart and go shoot 20 people is a "determined nut-job" who will stop at nothing to carry out their evil plan. Rather, as you suggest, those are "crimes of passion" -- literally shoot first, think later.

I don't consider the spontaneous murderer to be determined, but I certainly think that the vast majority of mass murderers are (eg. Colorado, Virginia Tech, Norway, etc.). Most mass murderers don't carry out their acts on a whim or in a fit of anger, and usually the evidence they leave behind proves this (eg. email, websites, magazine and newspapaer clippings, etc.). Do you think stricter gun laws would have prevented the Colorado shootings?


If stricter gun laws don't help prevent these kind of events can you explain why i can only think of 2 in my lifetime in the UK (Hungeford and Dunblane) while you have about 2 a year in the US ?!!
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Re: Very Ugly Gun Thread

Postby Conor Dary » Thu Jul 26, 2012 4:29 pm

mump boy wrote:

If stricter gun laws don't help prevent these kind of events can you explain why i can only think of 2 in my lifetime in the UK (Hungeford and Dunblane) while you have about 2 a year in the US ?!!


And those were about 10 years apart and Dunblane was back in 1996.
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Re: Very Ugly Gun Thread

Postby jazzcyclist » Thu Jul 26, 2012 4:33 pm

mump boy wrote:If stricter gun laws don't help prevent these kind of events can you explain why i can only think of 2 in my lifetime in the UK (Hungeford and Dunblane) while you have about 2 a year in the US ?!!

1) The U.S. has five times as many people as the U.K.

2) The U.S. is more violent than the U.K. in general, and the fact that the American non-gun murder rate is many times higher than the British non-gun murder rate proves this.

Also, you only mentioned gun massacres. I know enough about British history to know that you have had many more massacres than two over the last 25 years. Have you forgotten about the 7/7 bombings already?
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Re: Very Ugly Gun Thread

Postby muckin 4on » Thu Jul 26, 2012 4:50 pm

The need to possess a gun is, for the most part, an admission of fear. Apparently Americans are very afraid.
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Re: Very Ugly Gun Thread

Postby Conor Dary » Thu Jul 26, 2012 5:05 pm

jazzcyclist wrote:
Also, you only mentioned gun massacres. I know enough about British history to know that you have had many more massacres than two over the last 25 years. Have you forgotten about the 7/7 bombings already?


Geez that is a great point, but if you want to include terrorism, which is not part of this discussion, you forgot 9/11...and Oklahoma City.

And what other massacres are you talking about? Enlighten us with your knowledge of UK history.

No one is advocating banning all guns. The problem are these semi automatic guns that hold 30 or more rounds. Something no one needs.

Even Bill O'Reilly is in agreement.

    O’Reilly, who has long been a proponent of gun control, said on Fox that it makes sense for Congress to pass a new law that requires the sale of all heavy weapons to be reported to the FBI. O’Reilly then invited Chaffetz on to dissent.

http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.c ... aurora.php
Last edited by Conor Dary on Thu Jul 26, 2012 5:44 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Very Ugly Gun Thread

Postby Conor Dary » Thu Jul 26, 2012 5:09 pm

jazzcyclist wrote:
2) The U.S. is more violent than the U.K. in general, and the fact that the American non-gun murder rate is many times higher than the British non-gun murder rate proves this.


Actually the crime rate and murder rate is down in the US in the last 30 years. However, mass murder still goes on and on...
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Re: Very Ugly Gun Thread

Postby jazzcyclist » Thu Jul 26, 2012 6:41 pm

muckin 4on wrote:The need to possess a gun is, for the most part, an admission of fear. Apparently Americans are very afraid.

There's no doubt about that. I'd like to know how the percentage of home security sytems and gated communties compares to that of other Western nations.
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Re: Very Ugly Gun Thread

Postby jazzcyclist » Thu Jul 26, 2012 6:43 pm

Conor Dary wrote:Even Bill O'Reilly is in agreement.

You may hold O'Reilly in high esteem but I don't.
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Re: Very Ugly Gun Thread

Postby Daisy » Thu Jul 26, 2012 6:51 pm

muckin 4on wrote:The need to possess a gun is, for the most part, an admission of fear. Apparently Americans are very afraid.

Or angry.
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Re: Very Ugly Gun Thread

Postby jazzcyclist » Thu Jul 26, 2012 6:55 pm

Conor Dary wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote:
2) The U.S. is more violent than the U.K. in general, and the fact that the American non-gun murder rate is many times higher than the British non-gun murder rate proves this.


Actually the crime rate and murder rate is down in the US in the last 30 years. However, mass murder still goes on and on...

It may have gone down, but it's still much higher than the British crime rate. Here's the link to an interesting read.

http://willblogforfood.typepad.com/will ... urope.html

Edit: Here's another link that lists crime rates in a variety of countries. One stat that jumped out at me is Northern Ireland. What's up with that? :?

http://www.guncite.com/gun_control_gcgvinco.html
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Re: Very Ugly Gun Thread

Postby Daisy » Thu Jul 26, 2012 7:20 pm

jazzcyclist wrote:What's up with that?

Protestants and Catholics. AKA the troubles.
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Re: Very Ugly Gun Thread

Postby slowjo » Thu Jul 26, 2012 7:59 pm

Surely you were joking about NI jazz?

:?
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Re: Very Ugly Gun Thread

Postby Conor Dary » Mon Jul 30, 2012 5:38 am

slowjo wrote:Surely you were joking about NI jazz?

:?


I would hope so...
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