Penn State/State Pen [split]


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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby jazzcyclist » Fri Nov 02, 2012 9:00 am

Marlow wrote:
tandfman wrote:The former president of Penn State is now facing criminal charges.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/02/sport ... -case.html

I find the logic impeccable:

[He] had been told of an allegation that Sandusky, a former top assistant to the longtime football coach Joe Paterno, had sexually abused a young boy. It was decided that they would approach Sandusky directly, rather than going to outside authorities. Spanier deemed this a “humane and a reasonable way to proceed,” with one caveat: “The only downside for us is if the message isn’t ‘heard’ and acted upon, and we then become vulnerable for not having reported it.”

It is now known that Sandusky continued to sexually abuse young boys for years after.

They were seriously delusional to think that Sandusky would quit being a pedophile just because they asked him to. And Syracuse's handling of Bernie Fine shows that they could have all survived this scandal if they had acted more responsibly, despite the fact that Jim Boeheim had his head buried in the sand IMO.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Pego » Fri Nov 02, 2012 11:15 am

jazzcyclist wrote:
Marlow wrote:
tandfman wrote:The former president of Penn State is now facing criminal charges.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/02/sport ... -case.html

I find the logic impeccable:

[He] had been told of an allegation that Sandusky, a former top assistant to the longtime football coach Joe Paterno, had sexually abused a young boy. It was decided that they would approach Sandusky directly, rather than going to outside authorities. Spanier deemed this a “humane and a reasonable way to proceed,” with one caveat: “The only downside for us is if the message isn’t ‘heard’ and acted upon, and we then become vulnerable for not having reported it.”

It is now known that Sandusky continued to sexually abuse young boys for years after.

They were seriously delusional to think that Sandusky would quit being a pedophile just because they asked him to. And Syracuse's handling of Bernie Fine shows that they could have all survived this scandal if they had acted more responsibly, despite the fact that Jim Boeheim had his head buried in the sand IMO.


Syracuse lucked out. Sandusky affair had already started. The writing was on the wall.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby lonewolf » Fri Nov 02, 2012 11:41 am

Pego wrote:[Syracuse lucked out. Sandusky affair had already started. The writing was on the wall.

Yup. That was my first and final impression too.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Daisy » Thu Jan 10, 2013 9:19 am

Lawyer trying to get a retrial. Does this sound a little like a "my dog ate my homework" excuse?
Attorney Joe Amendola said during a hearing in support of a new trial for Sandusky that problems including a broken copy machine prevented him from crafting an adequate defense for the former Penn State assistant football coach.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/mc ... 2389.story
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Marlow » Thu Jan 10, 2013 9:23 am

a broken copy machine prevented him from crafting an adequate defense for the former Penn State assistant football coach.

Hysterical - Poor baby - I hope the judge laughs him out of the court.

"Yes, officer, I understand I was going 30mph over the speed limit, and I ran 2 stop lights and 3 stop signs, and was driving on the wrong side of the road, but MY WIFE changed all the pre-set radio buttons and I was trying to set them back!"
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby lonewolf » Thu Jan 10, 2013 10:57 am

I think if I were facing a life sentence and my copy machine broke, I would go to Kinkos.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby gh » Thu Jan 30, 2014 7:43 am

Wikipedia editors finally have a consensus of sorts on Joe Paterno's entry.

http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/index. ... t-comments
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Marlow » Thu Jan 30, 2014 8:26 am

gh wrote:Wikipedia editors finally have a consensus of sorts on Joe Paterno's entry.
http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/index. ... t-comments

He really did so much good for Penn St (beyond his football record) that it's heart-breaking to think his legacy will be (deservedly) so negative. 409 wins (now down to 298) is grossly outweighed by even one child molested during his watch.

Religious dogma stipulates that God has judged Paterno, but his family has to live in the real world where he has been likened to a monster. Such a sad, sad case, all around. :(
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby jazzcyclist » Thu Jan 30, 2014 9:59 am

IMO, the NCAA had no business sticking its nose in this matter at all. The was a matter for the criminal justice system and Penn State University to deal with, and the NCAA should have let them handle it just as it did for the Baylor basketball murder case. The $60 million dollar money grab was shameful, but par for the course with the amoral NCAA.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby odelltrclan » Thu Jan 30, 2014 11:26 am

jazzcyclist wrote:IMO, the NCAA had no business sticking its nose in this matter at all. The was a matter for the criminal justice system and Penn State University to deal with, and the NCAA should have let them handle it just as it did for the Baylor basketball murder case. The $60 million dollar money grab was shameful, but par for the course with the amoral NCAA.



I agree wholeheartedly, for once! :o
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Marlow » Thu Jan 30, 2014 11:38 am

jazzcyclist wrote:IMO, the NCAA had no business sticking its nose in this matter at all. The was a matter for the criminal justice system and Penn State University to deal with, and the NCAA should have let them handle it just as it did for the Baylor basketball murder case. The $60 million dollar money grab was shameful, but par for the course with the amoral NCAA.

Damned if they do and damned if they don't. If they had NOT gotten involved, I promise you there would have been a national media firestorm accusing the NCAA of looking the other way and 'not caring' about the victims!
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Pego » Thu Jan 30, 2014 12:28 pm

odelltrclan wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote:IMO, the NCAA had no business sticking its nose in this matter at all. The was a matter for the criminal justice system and Penn State University to deal with, and the NCAA should have let them handle it just as it did for the Baylor basketball murder case. The $60 million dollar money grab was shameful, but par for the course with the amoral NCAA.



I agree wholeheartedly, for once! :o


So do I. Sanctions on Penn St program are beyond my comprehension. They are punishing innocent next generation.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby jazzcyclist » Thu Jan 30, 2014 1:56 pm

Marlow wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote:IMO, the NCAA had no business sticking its nose in this matter at all. The was a matter for the criminal justice system and Penn State University to deal with, and the NCAA should have let them handle it just as it did for the Baylor basketball murder case. The $60 million dollar money grab was shameful, but par for the course with the amoral NCAA.

Damned if they do and damned if they don't. If they had NOT gotten involved, I promise you there would have been a national media firestorm accusing the NCAA of looking the other way and 'not caring' about the victims!

I don't agree that there would have been backlash against the NCAA, but so what if there was. Does that justify over-stepping their authority and making up new rules that don't exist in its bylaws, just to look sanctimonious? And what's the money grab all about anyway?
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby lonewolf » Thu Jan 30, 2014 2:44 pm

I don't know/remember/have an opinion of the details of NCAA involvement. I just know Paterno screwed up when he willifully ignored/covered up for Sandusky and deserves all the ignominy he earned.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Marlow » Thu Jan 30, 2014 3:44 pm

jazzcyclist wrote:I don't agree that there would have been backlash against the NCAA, but so what if there was.

??!!
I didn't hear a whole lot of national media backlash when the NCAA DID get involved. Whatever amount of backlash there was would have paled in comparison to the sh*t the NCAA would have gotten by doing nothing! The public loves piling-on in these kinds of cases. The NCAA was just covering their 6s by implementing the sanctions they did.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby jazzcyclist » Thu Jan 30, 2014 4:26 pm

Marlow wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote:I don't agree that there would have been backlash against the NCAA, but so what if there was.

??!!
I didn't hear a whole lot of national media backlash when the NCAA DID get involved.

That doesn't mean that there would have been backlash if the NCAA didn't get involved. What's your point? And don't forget that the NCAA took several months before they took any action, and I don't recall anyone in the media demanding action. As a matter of fact, I recall several public sports figures (eg. Lou Holtz, Brent Musburger, Mike Krzyzewski) who accused the NCAA of unnecessarily piling on.
Marlow wrote:[Whatever amount of backlash there was would have paled in comparison to the sh*t the NCAA would have gotten by doing nothing! The public loves piling-on in these kinds of cases.

That's just idle speculation and conjecture. Anyway, public opinion doesn't have a thing to do with the NCAA bylaws.
Marlow wrote:[The NCAA was just covering their 6s by implementing the sanctions they did.

The NCAA was never implicated in any of this, so I don't see how you can say they were covering themselves. Conversely, the district attorney wouldn't have been covering himself if he had brought charges against Paterno if he had found out that he was paying players to play.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby runforlife » Thu Jan 30, 2014 4:55 pm

Pego wrote: They are punishing innocent next generation.

That always happens. A coach gets caught with recruiting violations. The coach just gets another coaching job while the school endures the punishment. Not fair but that's the way it is.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Pego » Thu Jan 30, 2014 6:03 pm

runforlife wrote:
Pego wrote: They are punishing innocent next generation.

That always happens. A coach gets caught with recruiting violations. The coach just gets another coaching job while the school endures the punishment. Not fair but that's the way it is.


I know it is. It is still wrong.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby JumboElliott » Fri Jan 31, 2014 6:27 pm

Marlow wrote:Religious dogma stipulates that God has judged Paterno, but his family has to live in the real world where he has been likened to a monster. Such a sad, sad case, all around. :(

His family have been playing victim since this started. In a situation where there are actual victims that have been scarred for life I have no sympathy for them.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby JumboElliott » Fri Jan 31, 2014 6:31 pm

jazzcyclist wrote:IMO, the NCAA had no business sticking its nose in this matter at all. The was a matter for the criminal justice system and Penn State University to deal with, and the NCAA should have let them handle it just as it did for the Baylor basketball murder case. The $60 million dollar money grab was shameful, but par for the course with the amoral NCAA.

As a resident of Pennsylvania and a former Penn State fan, I'm just sad the NCAA didn't go further and give the program the death penalty. If Penn State was a corporation, there is a zero percent chance that it would still exist today after the criminal conspiracy that went on.

The even more shameful thing is my governor suing the NCAA to try to get it overturned to score political points. That charade, combined with his inaction with the case while he was Attorney General was the direct catalyst for me to switch my party registration from Republican to independent.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Marlow » Sat Feb 01, 2014 5:45 am

JumboElliott wrote:His family have been playing victim since this started. In a situation where there are actual victims that have been scarred for life I have no sympathy for them.

How are they NOT victims? They didn't do anything wrong, but have also suffered greatly - obviously no where near as badly as the young boys, but their lives have been ruined nonetheless. Their story is also a tragedy, which does nothing to diminish the tragedy of the boys and their families.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Marlow » Sat Feb 01, 2014 5:47 am

JumboElliott wrote:As a resident of Pennsylvania and a former Penn State fan, I'm just sad the NCAA didn't go further and give the program the death penalty. If Penn State was a corporation, there is a zero percent chance that it would still exist today after the criminal conspiracy that went on.

And there is the other side of the argument, jazz. I'm not THAT draconian, but I do think the NCAA had zero choice as to whether they should get involved.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby JumboElliott » Sat Feb 01, 2014 7:04 am

Marlow wrote:
JumboElliott wrote:His family have been playing victim since this started. In a situation where there are actual victims that have been scarred for life I have no sympathy for them.

How are they NOT victims? They didn't do anything wrong, but have also suffered greatly - obviously no where near as badly as the young boys, but their lives have been ruined nonetheless. Their story is also a tragedy, which does nothing to diminish the tragedy of the boys and their families.

They've injected themselves (and Paterno's damaged legacy) into the story, and because of that, there are "409" and "JVP" bumper stickers everywhere.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby jazzcyclist » Sat Feb 01, 2014 3:40 pm

Marlow wrote:
JumboElliott wrote:As a resident of Pennsylvania and a former Penn State fan, I'm just sad the NCAA didn't go further and give the program the death penalty. If Penn State was a corporation, there is a zero percent chance that it would still exist today after the criminal conspiracy that went on.

And there is the other side of the argument, jazz. I'm not THAT draconian, but I do think the NCAA had zero choice as to whether they should get involved.

Zero choice? :?: I don't even know what that means. For the record, I have no sympathy for the folks who covered this up, including Paterno, but my contention is that the punishment should have been meted out by the folks with the proper authority to do it, and the NCAA didn't. I was disappointed that Penn State rolled over the way they did, because if they had challenged it in court, the NCAA wouldn't have had a leg to stand on. This is no different than the police arresting you for being late for work. I'm really shocked the you and Jumbo can't comprehend this concept.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby JumboElliott » Sat Feb 01, 2014 5:14 pm

If the government was too gutless to go after them for the numerous Title IX/Clery Act violations, I have no issue with the NCAA doing it, especially because Penn State signed a consent decree.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby jazzcyclist » Sat Feb 01, 2014 5:39 pm

JumboElliott wrote:If the government was too gutless to go after them for the numerous Title IX/Clery Act violations, I have no issue with the NCAA doing it, especially because Penn State signed a consent decree.

1) Since everyone involved was fired and/or indicted, I don't see how you can accuse the government of gutlessness, and then turn around and applaud the NCAA, who only piled on six months after the government had already dropped the hammer.

2) Your contempt for due process is unfortunate, and as long as this mindset exists, there will always be injustice perpetrated in the name of "doing the right thing". This is the same mindset of the folks who persecuted Muhammad Ali, not because of any law that he had broken, but because he was deemed insufficiently patriotic during wartime. This is just one of many examples I can give of this sort of injustice.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Marlow » Sat Feb 01, 2014 6:51 pm

jazzcyclist wrote:This is no different than the police arresting you for being late for work.
I'm really shocked the you and Jumbo can't comprehend this concept.

A. Completely faulty analogy
B. How did it play out? That's called real life. I think you CAN understand that concept.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby JumboElliott » Sat Feb 01, 2014 8:21 pm

jazzcyclist wrote:
JumboElliott wrote:If the government was too gutless to go after them for the numerous Title IX/Clery Act violations, I have no issue with the NCAA doing it, especially because Penn State signed a consent decree.

1) Since everyone involved was fired and/or indicted, I don't see how you can accuse the government of gutlessness, and then turn around and applaud the NCAA, who only piled on six months after the government had already dropped the hammer.

2) Your contempt for due process is unfortunate, and as long as this mindset exists, there will always be injustice perpetrated in the name of "doing the right thing". This is the same mindset of the folks who persecuted Muhammad Ali, not because of any law that he had broken, but because he was deemed insufficiently patriotic during wartime. This is just one of many examples I can give of this sort of injustice.


1. I'm talking about the Federal Government. There is no question that Penn State was not Title IX compliant for well over a decade. They should have had their accreditation revoked. Like I said, if they were a corporation, they would be out of business.

2. NCAA rules are very vague. The NCAA does not issue explanations for what constitutes "lack of institutional control" but simply looking at the NCAA's "core values" in their mission statement, it's pretty clear that Penn State did violate them.

The Association - through its member institutions, conferences and national office staff - shares a belief in and commitment to:

· The collegiate model of athletics in which students participate as an avocation, balancing their academic, social and athletics experiences.

· The highest levels of integrity and sportsmanship.

· The pursuit of excellence in both academics and athletics.

· The supporting role that intercollegiate athletics plays in the higher education mission and in enhancing the sense of community and strengthening the identity of member institutions.

· An inclusive culture that fosters equitable participation for student-athletes and career opportunities for coaches and administrators from diverse backgrounds.

· Respect for institutional autonomy and philosophical differences.

· Presidential leadership of intercollegiate athletics at the campus, conference and national levels.


I italicized three examples where Penn State fell egregiously short of the NCAA's "core values".
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby bambam » Sun Feb 02, 2014 4:57 am

JumboElliott wrote:1. I'm talking about the Federal Government. There is no question that Penn State was not Title IX compliant for well over a decade. They should have had their accreditation revoked. Like I said, if they were a corporation, they would be out of business.

2. NCAA rules are very vague. The NCAA does not issue explanations for what constitutes "lack of institutional control" but simply looking at the NCAA's "core values" in their mission statement, it's pretty clear that Penn State did violate them.


There's a famous quote about the NCAA'e enforcements standards:

"Whenever [Alabama/Penn State/Notre Dame/fill in the blank with major programs] has committed a violation, the NCAA puts Cleveland State on probation."
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby jazzcyclist » Sun Feb 02, 2014 8:12 am

Marlow wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote:This is no different than the police arresting you for being late for work.
I'm really shocked the you and Jumbo can't comprehend this concept.

A. Completely faulty analogy

It's a great analogy which you seem unable to grasp.
B. How did it play out? That's called real life. I think you CAN understand that concept.[/quote]
What does this even mean? :?
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby jazzcyclist » Sun Feb 02, 2014 8:20 am

JumboElliott wrote:1. I'm talking about the Federal Government. There is no question that Penn State was not Title IX compliant for well over a decade. They should have had their accreditation revoked. Like I said, if they were a corporation, they would be out of business.

What does the NCAA have to do with the Federal government? What Title IX law are you talking about? Does the NCAA have any history of yanking the accreditation of schools who had coaches and faculty who had sex with students?

JumboElliott wrote:2. NCAA rules are very vague.

The rule used against Penn State was made up on the spot. There's no question about that.

JumboElliott wrote:The NCAA does not issue explanations for what constitutes "lack of institutional control" but simply looking at the NCAA's "core values" in their mission statement, it's pretty clear that Penn State did violate them.

Do really believe that in 2014 that the NCAA has any altruistic core values at all? :?:
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Marlow » Sun Feb 02, 2014 8:27 am

jazzcyclist wrote:It's a great analogy which you seem unable to grasp.
. . .
What does this even mean?

Speaking of 'unable to grasp'. :D
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby JumboElliott » Sun Feb 02, 2014 3:52 pm

Excuse my validation of Godwin's Law, but the same exact argument could be made about the Nuremberg Trials.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby gh » Fri Feb 14, 2014 4:25 pm

The chickens coming home to roost?

Penn State lost $6M in 2012-13

http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/index. ... _mone.html
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby JumboElliott » Fri Feb 14, 2014 4:31 pm

Unfortunately, there's the $30 million bridge loan they're giving athletics to cover expenses. If I was a professor or administrator at one of the satellite Penn State schools, I would be furious.
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