Penn State/State Pen [split]


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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby TN1965 » Tue Jul 24, 2012 2:21 pm

Master Po wrote:Right now, I can't think of another example to put alongside the Paterno statue being installed in 2001, while he was still head coach. Maybe this happens all the time, but I can't think of comparable cases. Does anyone else have examples?


Michael Jordan statue was bulit after his first retirement. Of course, he "unretired" soon after and played at the United Center with his statue in front of the building.

And his alma mater named the newly built arena "Deam Smith Center" while Dean was still actively coaching. I am glad UNC at least didn't build his statue!
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby TN1965 » Tue Jul 24, 2012 2:24 pm

KevinM wrote:Dean Smith coached for 11 or 12 years in a building named after him. The practice seems to be getting a bit more common, especially with the naming of courts, such as Coach K court at Duke and (I believe) Pat Summitt court at Tennessee.


Summit also has a street named after her in Knoxville, along with several former football coaches. I don't know if any of the football coaches got a street named after them while they were still coaching.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby KevinM » Tue Jul 24, 2012 2:31 pm

TN1965 wrote:
KevinM wrote:Dean Smith coached for 11 or 12 years in a building named after him. The practice seems to be getting a bit more common, especially with the naming of courts, such as Coach K court at Duke and (I believe) Pat Summitt court at Tennessee.


Summit also has a street named after her in Knoxville, along with several former football coaches. I don't know if any of the football coaches got a street named after them while they were still coaching.


Pretty sure Fulmer was.

I imagine he and Paterno are the only ones to have such honors and to also be canned.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby jazzcyclist » Tue Jul 24, 2012 3:38 pm

Master Po wrote:Right now, I can't think of another example to put alongside the Paterno statue being installed in 2001, while he was still head coach. Maybe this happens all the time, but I can't think of comparable cases. Does anyone else have examples?

Nick Saban at Alabama? He got a statue after only three years of coaching.

http://dailybamablog.files.wordpress.co ... update.jpg
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby KevinM » Tue Jul 24, 2012 3:51 pm

jazzcyclist wrote:
Master Po wrote:Right now, I can't think of another example to put alongside the Paterno statue being installed in 2001, while he was still head coach. Maybe this happens all the time, but I can't think of comparable cases. Does anyone else have examples?

Nick Saban at Alabama? He got a statue after only three years of coaching.


Not surprising, but good lord. Pretty sure no one wants to know what has been swept under the carpet over the years at some of the SEC, Big 12, and old SWC schools.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Conor Dary » Tue Jul 24, 2012 4:17 pm

lonewolf wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote: Since even Mark Emmert admitted that Penn State hadn't violated any NCAA rules, and that the Sandusky scandal was outside the normal purview of their authority, they might have a point.

An excellent example that authority is not granted, it is seized.


Exactly.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby preston » Wed Jul 25, 2012 6:15 am

I personally think Joe Paterno DESERVED to have a statue at Penn State; we have to remember that the Athletic Departments of most schools are seperate entities so if they want to give a coach - or an athlete - a statue, then I don't have a problem with it.

I also can't think of a single reason why the world even knows about Penn State aside from Joe Paterno/Happy Valley/Beaver Stadium/etc. Yes, they've had academic excellence but so has Carnegie-Mellon, Pitt, and West Virginia. PSU pride has to do with their Football excellence; there would be far fewer proud alumni sporting their logo etc if all they were were an academic powerhouse - and that goes for a bunch of other schools, too. PSU has had some athletes in other sports over the years, but when you think of Penn State you think of Football and Joe Paterno. Joe Paterno MADE Penn State. notre dame football MADE notre dame Purposely made small because that school IS everything that is wrong with college athletics.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Marlow » Wed Jul 25, 2012 7:24 am

Agree with you, Preston, about just how important football is to some school's entire identity, and Penn St is completely vested in it. I never was enamored with JoePa, but certainly didn't foresee something like this. The reality is that MANY schools have ugly skeletons in their closets and now they are even more desperately trying to get rid of them.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby catson52 » Wed Jul 25, 2012 7:34 am

preston wrote:I personally think Joe Paterno DESERVED to have a statue at Penn State; we have to remember that the Athletic Departments of most schools are seperate entities so if they want to give a coach - or an athlete - a statue, then I don't have a problem with it.

I also can't think of a single reason why the world even knows about Penn State aside from Joe Paterno/Happy Valley/Beaver Stadium/etc. Yes, they've had academic excellence but so has Carnegie-Mellon, Pitt, and West Virginia. PSU pride has to do with their Football excellence; there would be far fewer proud alumni sporting their logo etc if all they were were an academic powerhouse - and that goes for a bunch of other schools, too. PSU has had some athletes in other sports over the years, but when you think of Penn State you think of Football and Joe Paterno. Joe Paterno MADE Penn State. notre dame football MADE notre dame Purposely made small because that school IS everything that is wrong with college athletics.


Whilst what you wrote reflects "what is" it is not "what should be". College sports taking over universities and essentially dictating or controlling aspects of the university as a whole, is quite common today. Perhaps these athletes should be paid, and not really carrying the university logo.
All this talk of Greek tragedy. Icarus was foolish in using the wings fashioned by his father to fly too high. Even the most famous case of "hubris", that of Oedipus, involved a person basically unknowing of his "fatal flaw". That's what makes Greek Tragedy so moving and great. Tawdry cases like PSU/Paterno, should not be mentioned in the same breath. If indeed JP was a serious student of Greek Tragedy, he had learned nothing from his reading of Homer /Aeschylus/Sophocles/Euripides.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby 26mi235 » Thu Jul 26, 2012 3:28 pm

I thought of Penn State in terms of how good their industrial engineering school is or how strong their mineral economics program is.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Conor Dary » Tue Aug 21, 2012 10:45 am

From a review in today's NYTimes. Paterno loses it all for a guy he didn't even care much for.

    The book’s best chapter, and the one many people will turn to first, is titled simply “Sandusky.” Paterno hired Mr. Sandusky as a full-time assistant coach in 1969, when Mr. Sandusky was 25, and made him Penn State’s defensive coordinator eight years later. The two men disliked each other almost from the start, Mr. Posnanski reports, and he adds new detail about this uneasy relationship. Paterno thought Mr. Sandusky was a glory hound who wanted his job. Their styles were different. Paterno liked a drink now and then. Mr. Sandusky was a teetotaler.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/21/books ... .html?_r=1
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Marlow » Tue Aug 21, 2012 11:22 am

Conor Dary wrote:1. Paterno hired Mr. Sandusky as a full-time assistant coach
2. [Paterno] made him Penn State’s defensive coordinator
3. The two men disliked each other almost from the start
4. Paterno thought Mr. Sandusky was a glory hound who wanted his job.
5. Their styles were different.

What's wrong with this picture? :shock:
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby jeremyp » Tue Aug 21, 2012 12:38 pm

Marlow wrote:
Conor Dary wrote:1. Paterno hired Mr. Sandusky as a full-time assistant coach
2. [Paterno] made him Penn State’s defensive coordinator
3. The two men disliked each other almost from the start
4. Paterno thought Mr. Sandusky was a glory hound who wanted his job.
5. Their styles were different.

What's wrong with this picture? :shock:


Eisenhower and Patton? And we all know what happened to Patton. At least us older guys do.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby lonewolf » Tue Aug 21, 2012 12:44 pm

I dunno but it suggests to me that Paterno was complicit in the cover up to protect Penn State, not to protect Sandusky.
No difference, no distinction, no excuse.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Conor Dary » Tue Aug 21, 2012 12:48 pm

lonewolf wrote:I dunno but it suggests to me that Paterno was complicit in the cover up to protect Penn State, not to protect Sandusky.
No difference, no distinction, no excuse.


That is also my take. Sandusky was probably good at his job, which in the end was all P. cared about.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Marlow » Tue Aug 21, 2012 12:52 pm

jeremyp wrote:
Marlow wrote:
Conor Dary wrote:1. Paterno hired Mr. Sandusky as a full-time assistant coach
2. [Paterno] made him Penn State’s defensive coordinator
3. The two men disliked each other almost from the start
4. Paterno thought Mr. Sandusky was a glory hound who wanted his job.
5. Their styles were different.

What's wrong with this picture? :shock:


Eisenhower and Patton? And we all know what happened to Patton. At least us older guys do.

??!! Eisenhower was actually a big fan of Patton's ruthlessness, because it took the pressure off him. Eisenhower was only doing the politically expedient thing when he relieved Patton of command of the 7th Army. Patton, however, continued to play a vital role in the ETO for the rest of the war and Eisenhower treated him as the go-to guy he really was. Patton was an a**h**e, to be sure, but that's what a World War requires many times.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Conor Dary » Tue Aug 21, 2012 12:57 pm

Marlow wrote:
??!! Eisenhower was actually a big fan of Patton's ruthlessness, because it took the pressure off him. Eisenhower was only doing the politically expedient thing when he relieved Patton of command of the 7th Army. Patton, however, continued to play a vital role in the ETO for the rest of the war and Eisenhower treated him as the go-to guy he really was. Patton was an a**h**e, to be sure, but that's what a World War requires many times.


Thomas Ricks on Patton:

    I've had some fun over the last couple of weeks quoting some of Gen. George Patton's loonier comments and more repulsive observations, so it is only fair to conclude these excerpts by noting that I think Patton, for all his flaws, was a great general.

    This is his great contradiction. He hated everybody, and was spewing bile at the end of his life. Yet as a commander, he resembled Stonewall Jackson, having a great feel for the pattern of the campaign, constantly noting changes, calculating opportunities and disconcerting his enemies. For example, when he heard that Lucas would command the Anzio landing, he worried that that officer lacked sufficient drive to get to the high ground as soon as possible-a prescient concern. Likewise, in the fall of '44, he privately observed that by going quiet in the Ardennes, and using the area to post recuperating and green units, that Bradley was giving the Germans a chance to build up without being harrassed-another important bit of foresight.

http://ricks.foreignpolicy.com/posts/20 ... at_captain
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby jazzcyclist » Tue Aug 21, 2012 1:04 pm

Conor Dary wrote:
lonewolf wrote:I dunno but it suggests to me that Paterno was complicit in the cover up to protect Penn State, not to protect Sandusky.
No difference, no distinction, no excuse.


That is also my take. Sandusky was probably good at his job, which in the end was all P. cared about.

There's no doubt that he was complicit in the coverup, but I don't see how covering up protected Penn State. Syracuse hasn't taken the hit that Penn State has taken for its pedophile assistant coach. Furthermore, since Paterno put Sandusky out to the pasture soon after the 1998 incident, covering up didn't help him keep a valuable assistant on board either. I don't think it's a coincidence that Sandusky's resignation came soon after the first known incident.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby lonewolf » Tue Aug 21, 2012 1:27 pm

Good points, jazz. Eventually, of course, it did not protect Penn State. I agree Paterno probably eased Sandusky out..but still does not exonerate Paterno and the university administration.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby lonewolf » Tue Aug 21, 2012 1:52 pm

Reminds me of a non-related Patton story.
Twenty years ago, I worked with a LJ official, Bill, a rancher out around San Angelo, TX who had been a rodeo cowboy pre-WW2.
Bill, a wiry, taciturn guy, wore a belt buckle that curiously read "All Around Cowboy" ETO (European Theatre Operations) 1945. One day, changing shirts, I noted his upper body bore puncture wounds and was otherwise heavily scarred. I assumed they were battle wounds but he said, "Nope, half war, half bull."
Seems Patton had discovered him while visiting hospitals, learned of his cowboy background and when Bill returned to duty, created the position of European Rodeo Director, gave him trucks, men and confiscatory livestock authority. Bill put on rodeos all over Western Europe for the duration..never got shot again but took a few bull horns.
He was also a big time rodeo judge and was in the arena when Lane Frost was killed by a bull at 1989 Cheyenne Frontier Days.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby jeremyp » Tue Aug 21, 2012 6:43 pm

Marlow wrote:??!! Eisenhower was actually a big fan of Patton's ruthlessness, because it took the pressure off him. Eisenhower was only doing the politically expedient thing when he relieved Patton of command of the 7th Army. Patton, however, continued to play a vital role in the ETO for the rest of the war and Eisenhower treated him as the go-to guy he really was. Patton was an a**h**e, to be sure, but that's what a World War requires many times.

This report shows that Patton was much more of a loose cannon in Europe and that Eisenhower and Patton had some serious disagreements based on Patton's self destructive and egocentric behavior.
http://www.militaryhistoryonline.com/ww ... neral.aspx
What happened to these best friends? Two men that once considered each other comrades were arguing about major issues. .... One must consider all of Patton's mistakes; not following orders in Sicily, slapping the two soldiers, criticizing Eisenhower in public, and the Knutsford Affairs. Patton could never keep his mouth shut long enough to allow Eisenhower to give him a position of high command. This pattern continued after Eisenhower gave Patton yet another chance as commander of the Third Army, in March of 1944. ...

By giving the Third Army to Patton, he was giving Patton another chance. Ultimately, Patton ruined his chance as commander of the Third Army. Patton ordered the killing of German POWs while surrendering because he said they could not be trusted. Patton's actions were going too far and Eisenhower could not allow this to happen for Patton was going to have to change his ways.

Typically, Patton opened his mouth again, saying that the Nazis were better than the Russians were in Late 1944. He also compared Nazis to Republicans and Democrats because Nazis only cared about themselves as do the Republicans and Democrats. Patton said of the Russians:

Hell, why do we care what those goddamn Russians think? We are going to have to fight them sooner or later, within the next generation. Why not do it now while our Army is intact and the damn Russians can have their hind end kicked back to Russia in three months? We can do it easily with the help of the German troops we have, if we just arm them and take them with us. They hate the bastards.[92]

These actions were all Eisenhower could handle; he could not cover this one up and had no choice but to relieve Patton of his command
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Tuariki » Sat Aug 25, 2012 2:05 am

Marlow wrote:
jeremyp wrote:
Marlow wrote:
Conor Dary wrote:1. Paterno hired Mr. Sandusky as a full-time assistant coach
2. [Paterno] made him Penn State’s defensive coordinator
3. The two men disliked each other almost from the start
4. Paterno thought Mr. Sandusky was a glory hound who wanted his job.
5. Their styles were different.

What's wrong with this picture? :shock:


Eisenhower and Patton? And we all know what happened to Patton. At least us older guys do.

??!! Eisenhower was actually a big fan of Patton's ruthlessness, because it took the pressure off him. Eisenhower was only doing the politically expedient thing when he relieved Patton of command of the 7th Army. Patton, however, continued to play a vital role in the ETO for the rest of the war and Eisenhower treated him as the go-to guy he really was. Patton was an a**h**e, to be sure, but that's what a World War requires many times.

In my 4 years at West Point in the early 1970s what seemed obvious to me that the most revered of all USMA alumni by the cadets was Patton. Mad as a meat axe but the General you wanted leading you.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby gh » Mon Aug 27, 2012 3:27 pm

And now the silly collateral damage begins. Penn State football games will no longer play Neil Diamond's Sweet Caroline:


<<"Sweet Caroline," which is a big fan participation song during games, is being cut because of the lyrics, more specifically the line "touching me, touching you.">>
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby tandfman » Thu Nov 01, 2012 2:29 pm

The former president of Penn State is now facing criminal charges.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/02/sport ... -case.html
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Marlow » Fri Nov 02, 2012 3:45 am

tandfman wrote:The former president of Penn State is now facing criminal charges.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/02/sport ... -case.html

I find the logic impeccable:

[He] had been told of an allegation that Sandusky, a former top assistant to the longtime football coach Joe Paterno, had sexually abused a young boy. It was decided that they would approach Sandusky directly, rather than going to outside authorities. Spanier deemed this a “humane and a reasonable way to proceed,” with one caveat: “The only downside for us is if the message isn’t ‘heard’ and acted upon, and we then become vulnerable for not having reported it.”

It is now known that Sandusky continued to sexually abuse young boys for years after.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby jazzcyclist » Fri Nov 02, 2012 9:00 am

Marlow wrote:
tandfman wrote:The former president of Penn State is now facing criminal charges.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/02/sport ... -case.html

I find the logic impeccable:

[He] had been told of an allegation that Sandusky, a former top assistant to the longtime football coach Joe Paterno, had sexually abused a young boy. It was decided that they would approach Sandusky directly, rather than going to outside authorities. Spanier deemed this a “humane and a reasonable way to proceed,” with one caveat: “The only downside for us is if the message isn’t ‘heard’ and acted upon, and we then become vulnerable for not having reported it.”

It is now known that Sandusky continued to sexually abuse young boys for years after.

They were seriously delusional to think that Sandusky would quit being a pedophile just because they asked him to. And Syracuse's handling of Bernie Fine shows that they could have all survived this scandal if they had acted more responsibly, despite the fact that Jim Boeheim had his head buried in the sand IMO.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Pego » Fri Nov 02, 2012 11:15 am

jazzcyclist wrote:
Marlow wrote:
tandfman wrote:The former president of Penn State is now facing criminal charges.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/02/sport ... -case.html

I find the logic impeccable:

[He] had been told of an allegation that Sandusky, a former top assistant to the longtime football coach Joe Paterno, had sexually abused a young boy. It was decided that they would approach Sandusky directly, rather than going to outside authorities. Spanier deemed this a “humane and a reasonable way to proceed,” with one caveat: “The only downside for us is if the message isn’t ‘heard’ and acted upon, and we then become vulnerable for not having reported it.”

It is now known that Sandusky continued to sexually abuse young boys for years after.

They were seriously delusional to think that Sandusky would quit being a pedophile just because they asked him to. And Syracuse's handling of Bernie Fine shows that they could have all survived this scandal if they had acted more responsibly, despite the fact that Jim Boeheim had his head buried in the sand IMO.


Syracuse lucked out. Sandusky affair had already started. The writing was on the wall.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby lonewolf » Fri Nov 02, 2012 11:41 am

Pego wrote:[Syracuse lucked out. Sandusky affair had already started. The writing was on the wall.

Yup. That was my first and final impression too.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Daisy » Thu Jan 10, 2013 9:19 am

Lawyer trying to get a retrial. Does this sound a little like a "my dog ate my homework" excuse?
Attorney Joe Amendola said during a hearing in support of a new trial for Sandusky that problems including a broken copy machine prevented him from crafting an adequate defense for the former Penn State assistant football coach.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/mc ... 2389.story
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Marlow » Thu Jan 10, 2013 9:23 am

a broken copy machine prevented him from crafting an adequate defense for the former Penn State assistant football coach.

Hysterical - Poor baby - I hope the judge laughs him out of the court.

"Yes, officer, I understand I was going 30mph over the speed limit, and I ran 2 stop lights and 3 stop signs, and was driving on the wrong side of the road, but MY WIFE changed all the pre-set radio buttons and I was trying to set them back!"
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby lonewolf » Thu Jan 10, 2013 10:57 am

I think if I were facing a life sentence and my copy machine broke, I would go to Kinkos.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby gh » Thu Jan 30, 2014 7:43 am

Wikipedia editors finally have a consensus of sorts on Joe Paterno's entry.

http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/index. ... t-comments
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Marlow » Thu Jan 30, 2014 8:26 am

gh wrote:Wikipedia editors finally have a consensus of sorts on Joe Paterno's entry.
http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/index. ... t-comments

He really did so much good for Penn St (beyond his football record) that it's heart-breaking to think his legacy will be (deservedly) so negative. 409 wins (now down to 298) is grossly outweighed by even one child molested during his watch.

Religious dogma stipulates that God has judged Paterno, but his family has to live in the real world where he has been likened to a monster. Such a sad, sad case, all around. :(
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby jazzcyclist » Thu Jan 30, 2014 9:59 am

IMO, the NCAA had no business sticking its nose in this matter at all. The was a matter for the criminal justice system and Penn State University to deal with, and the NCAA should have let them handle it just as it did for the Baylor basketball murder case. The $60 million dollar money grab was shameful, but par for the course with the amoral NCAA.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby odelltrclan » Thu Jan 30, 2014 11:26 am

jazzcyclist wrote:IMO, the NCAA had no business sticking its nose in this matter at all. The was a matter for the criminal justice system and Penn State University to deal with, and the NCAA should have let them handle it just as it did for the Baylor basketball murder case. The $60 million dollar money grab was shameful, but par for the course with the amoral NCAA.



I agree wholeheartedly, for once! :o
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Marlow » Thu Jan 30, 2014 11:38 am

jazzcyclist wrote:IMO, the NCAA had no business sticking its nose in this matter at all. The was a matter for the criminal justice system and Penn State University to deal with, and the NCAA should have let them handle it just as it did for the Baylor basketball murder case. The $60 million dollar money grab was shameful, but par for the course with the amoral NCAA.

Damned if they do and damned if they don't. If they had NOT gotten involved, I promise you there would have been a national media firestorm accusing the NCAA of looking the other way and 'not caring' about the victims!
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Pego » Thu Jan 30, 2014 12:28 pm

odelltrclan wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote:IMO, the NCAA had no business sticking its nose in this matter at all. The was a matter for the criminal justice system and Penn State University to deal with, and the NCAA should have let them handle it just as it did for the Baylor basketball murder case. The $60 million dollar money grab was shameful, but par for the course with the amoral NCAA.



I agree wholeheartedly, for once! :o


So do I. Sanctions on Penn St program are beyond my comprehension. They are punishing innocent next generation.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby jazzcyclist » Thu Jan 30, 2014 1:56 pm

Marlow wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote:IMO, the NCAA had no business sticking its nose in this matter at all. The was a matter for the criminal justice system and Penn State University to deal with, and the NCAA should have let them handle it just as it did for the Baylor basketball murder case. The $60 million dollar money grab was shameful, but par for the course with the amoral NCAA.

Damned if they do and damned if they don't. If they had NOT gotten involved, I promise you there would have been a national media firestorm accusing the NCAA of looking the other way and 'not caring' about the victims!

I don't agree that there would have been backlash against the NCAA, but so what if there was. Does that justify over-stepping their authority and making up new rules that don't exist in its bylaws, just to look sanctimonious? And what's the money grab all about anyway?
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby lonewolf » Thu Jan 30, 2014 2:44 pm

I don't know/remember/have an opinion of the details of NCAA involvement. I just know Paterno screwed up when he willifully ignored/covered up for Sandusky and deserves all the ignominy he earned.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Marlow » Thu Jan 30, 2014 3:44 pm

jazzcyclist wrote:I don't agree that there would have been backlash against the NCAA, but so what if there was.

??!!
I didn't hear a whole lot of national media backlash when the NCAA DID get involved. Whatever amount of backlash there was would have paled in comparison to the sh*t the NCAA would have gotten by doing nothing! The public loves piling-on in these kinds of cases. The NCAA was just covering their 6s by implementing the sanctions they did.
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