Penn State/State Pen [split]


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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby odelltrclan » Wed Nov 09, 2011 10:21 am

jazzcyclist wrote:I know what the grand jury testimony says and that's all I need to know. There's no conflict in the testimony, Paterno corroborated McQueary's testimony. I accept the grand jury testimony as incontrovertable fact. Evidently you see the grand jury testimony as idle speculation and conjecture. To each his own. :(


Yes, and I once personally knew a woman who claimed to have been raped by a man. He was convicted and sentenced to many years in prison. Shortly after I met and had interactions with this woman she recanted her testimony and claimed he didn't rape her. She wanted to set things right. No one believed her now. She fought for years to get him removed. They said there was plenty of evidence he was the one regardless if she changed her story and questioned her motives. Finally, after many more years and the advent of DNA testing, they realized he was not guilty and he was finally freed after spending many years in jail. His life completely ruined and he has been unable to every fully recover.

All you need to know is the little bits of information you have heard in the grand jury without having the slightest clue what went on behind closed doors behind Paterno and McQueary but seem to be so ready to convict based on your emotional response and limited information. Fortunately we have a legal system that allows people their day in court, or the court of public opinion would already have crucified certain individuals that MAY not be so culpable as you and the altruistic media make them out to be.

I am done with this.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby 26mi235 » Wed Nov 09, 2011 10:24 am

As malmo said on LetsRun (malmo being a PSU alum and one-time AR in SC and 15k), Paterno is the authority at Penn State. The guys he told were his nominal superiors but it was going to be handled like Paterno wanted it handled.

Sandusky was a good friend of Paterno's, according to multiple people (including, I think, malmo). So several pieces stick out. Why was the direction of Linebacker U changed from his buddy, the main guy behind Linebacker U, and the subsequent resignation. The prior reported incident was 1998, so temporally, there could be a sequence that matches knowledge that Paterno, I think, has denied having about that prior incident. Another possibility is that Sandusky took himself out of the running because he knew it likely that if he became head coach prior acts would be more likely to be reported and investigated. And/or he wanted more to continue his 'lifestyle' and would not be able to do so as head coach at PSU.

Second, the guy who reported the incident to Paterno went from being a Graduate Assistant to being an Assistant Coach (with what salary). Is this part of a deal to be quite that became partially undone when the grand jury subpenaed him and even at this point apparently keeping to a story of not telling Paterno the whole details.

[I kept on being 'jumped in posting, so I am going to leave as is even though there are later posts by, e.g., odelltrclan]
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby gh » Wed Nov 09, 2011 10:34 am

jazzcyclist wrote:......
I know what the grand jury testimony says and that's all I need to know. ....(


Wow! I certainly hope you're never on a jury when I'm the defendant!
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Marlow » Wed Nov 09, 2011 10:42 am

Conor Dary wrote:On the front page of today's NYTimes.
"Mr. Paterno has publicly said he was not told of the graphic nature of a suspected 2002 assault by Jerry Sandusky, a former assistant, of a young boy in the football building’s showers. Mr. Paterno said the graduate assistant who reported the assault, Mike McQueary, said only that something disturbing had happened that was perhaps sexual in nature.

This is extremely damning.

Q: Who does not demand a full accounting?

A: Someone who wants plausible deniability
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby SQUACKEE » Wed Nov 09, 2011 10:52 am

Marlow wrote:

Q: Who does not demand a full accounting?

A: Someone who wants plausible deniability


EXCELLENT POINT !!! If he didnt ask for details it was only because he didnt want to know.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby jazzcyclist » Wed Nov 09, 2011 10:56 am

odelltrclan wrote:Yes, and I once personally knew a woman who claimed to have been raped by a man. He was convicted and sentenced to many years in prison. Shortly after I met and had interactions with this woman she recanted her testimony and claimed he didn't rape her. She wanted to set things right. No one believed her now. She fought for years to get him removed. They said there was plenty of evidence he was the one regardless if she changed her story and questioned her motives. Finally, after many more years and the advent of DNA testing, they realized he was not guilty and he was finally freed after spending many years in jail. His life completely ruined and he has been unable to every fully recover.

All you need to know is the little bits of information you have heard in the grand jury without having the slightest clue what went on behind closed doors behind Paterno and McQueary but seem to be so ready to convict based on your emotional response and limited information. Fortunately we have a legal system that allows people their day in court, or the court of public opinion would already have crucified certain individuals that MAY not be so culpable as you and the altruistic media make them out to be.

I am done with this.

1) Your story contradicts your own logic since the man was convicted.
2) This isn't a he said-she said story where you have Sandusky's word against the victim's word. McQueary was a third party to the incident without an ax to grind.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby odelltrclan » Wed Nov 09, 2011 11:27 am

jazzcyclist wrote:1) Your story contradicts your own logic since the man was convicted.
2) This isn't a he said-she said story where you have Sandusky's word against the victim's word. McQueary was a third party to the incident without an ax to grind.


Jazz, you seem to be entirely unable to grasp the points that I have made. It almost reminds me of when Hollywood Henderson, in speaking of Terry Bradshaw, said that he could not spell Cat if someone spotted him the C and the A.

Let me clarify in the simplest terms what I have said on this thread.

1. Penn State will be forced to clean house to save face and Paterno would be gone.

2. Sandusky's actions were and are appalling.

3. McQueary's actions are deplorable as well for failing to stop what was going on when he had a chance and in failing to do more in the aftermath.

4. We might want to reserve harsh judgment on "others involved", including but not limited to Joe Paterno, because we cannot possibly know everything they knew or things that happened that led to the decisions they made.

5. If these others, including Paterno were culpable, they deserve any punishment they get, but I feel a little bit of sympathy for them because it might have been hard to have walked in their shoes with a close friend. Perhaps errors were made in their judgment, but that happens to all of us, but the even if they did make a conscientious decision (in poor judgment) about the wrong course of action it is very likely they may not have had the slightest clue at how pervasive the problem was.

6. If in fact all is true (the others) they deserve their day to be heard before being crucified.

7. Anyone associated with Sandusky appears to or will have lifelong lasting negative consequences. There were MANY victims besides those unfortunate kids who were sexually assaulted.

The point of the story did not contradict itself as someone was convicted on false information that later turned out to be false, hence, all the information you attribute as fact to Paterno may not be true.

Most of the comments I have stated have nothing to do with McQueary being innocent in any way but have to do with the others being implicated by association.

You don't need to reply as I don't want to be tempted to respond again so I will refrain from reading the T&FN site for at least a few days.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby SQUACKEE » Wed Nov 09, 2011 11:46 am

Like I said before I appreicate odelltrclan's atempt to be reasonable and careful in this matter.

I am not a judge or jury but where there is smoke there is fire and this whole thing stinks to high heaven. I dont think Paterno is a criminal, but he as one thing in common with everyone who knew about this rape......they all in effect did NOTHING! NOTHING!
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Marlow » Wed Nov 09, 2011 12:26 pm

As much as I 'feel' for JoePa here, I'm hoping he is made to step down just so it's crystal clear to everyone what the consequences are for even a 'latent' cover-up, i.e., failing to push the incident to a full accounting and full justice for the victims (including the impossibility of it recurring).
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Dutra » Wed Nov 09, 2011 1:21 pm

I agree with odell that there should be some stepping back and gathering of the facts prior to hanging everyone potentially involved. I do believe that the claims, many of which seem to have a ton of credence, are enough to make the best course of action be having either PSU or the NCAA step in and remove Paterno and possibly the School President from day to day activities even if only temporarily. This could work out to the school's benefit since, unless they plan on hiding JoePa through a potential bowl game two months from now, the risk of having him say something incriminating is pretty great at his advanced and non cognitive age.

My gut feeling is that this may go way beyond the scope of one man. I hope I'm wrong in this particular conjecture but I don't like the particulars of a charity set up to help troubled boys by a serial child rapist....allegedly. This has a lot of markings of a NAMBLA scenario.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby jeremyp » Wed Nov 09, 2011 1:22 pm

What never ceases to amaze me is how organizations with lawyers don't cotton to the fact that somebody always talks. The crap they have now is 100x the crap they would have had if they had been open back then. I think the Catholic Church found this out way down the road as well.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Pego » Wed Nov 09, 2011 1:57 pm

FWIW, I agree with odelltrclan. It would not be the first time, good people get dragged down by not dealing with criminality of others forcefully enough. By allowing Sandusky to avoid justice, they do deserve what they get.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Marlow » Wed Nov 09, 2011 2:07 pm

JoePa just announced his retirement for after this season. Good idea.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-400_162-573 ... e-tragedy/
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby guru » Wed Nov 09, 2011 2:12 pm

Marlow wrote:JoePa just announced his retirement for after this season. Good idea.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-400_162-573 ... e-tragedy/



Not enough. He needs to go immediately. Too bad he doesn't realize it, because I suspect the Board will do it for him.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby jazzcyclist » Wed Nov 09, 2011 2:25 pm

odelltrclan wrote:It almost reminds me of when Hollywood Henderson, in speaking of Terry Bradshaw, said that he could not spell Cat if someone spotted him the C and the A.

I'm not going to get into a silly, juvenile pissing contest with you. If you want to play those kind of junior high school games, you'll have to find someone else to play with. I thought you were better than that. :evil:
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Dutra » Wed Nov 09, 2011 2:45 pm

guru wrote:
Marlow wrote:JoePa just announced his retirement for after this season. Good idea.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-400_162-573 ... e-tragedy/



Not enough. He needs to go immediately. Too bad he doesn't realize it, because I suspect the Board will do it for him.


The Governor is supposedly attending the board meeting either this evening or tomorrow or both. My guess is that he's not coming in to leave the status quo only to have a few facts change within a few days and then needing to revisit the situation.

There are also rumblings I've heard on the radio regarding the FBI being involved. As I mentioned earlier....keep an eye on that charity Sandusky set up for troubled boys. I just get a bad feeling about that.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby mojo » Wed Nov 09, 2011 2:56 pm

guru wrote:
Marlow wrote:JoePa just announced his retirement for after this season. Good idea.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-400_162-573 ... e-tragedy/



Not enough. He needs to go immediately. Too bad he doesn't realize it, because I suspect the Board will do it for him.



Agreed guru. Gone. NOW. And the president and anyone else who knew of this to any degree.

Not one of these people put the children first. You see a man raping a young boy and walk away? Is that not aiding and abetting a serious crime? I can not get past that. How abandoned that poor little guy must have felt.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby guru » Wed Nov 09, 2011 3:06 pm

Dutra wrote:
There are also rumblings I've heard on the radio regarding the FBI being involved. As I mentioned earlier....keep an eye on that charity Sandusky set up for troubled boys. I just get a bad feeling about that.



By not reporting the crime(s), Penn State violated the federal Clery Act


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clery_Act

The Clery Act requires all colleges and universities that participate in federal financial aid programs to keep and disclose information about crime on and near their respective campuses. Compliance is monitored by the United States Department of Education, which can impose civil penalties, up to $27,500 per violation, against institutions for each infraction and can suspend institutions from participating in federal student financial aid programs.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby dukehjsteve » Wed Nov 09, 2011 4:21 pm

I'd love to be a fly on the wall at that Board meeting tonight, with the Governor there. I suspect the Guv will have some very frank suggestions as to the actions they should take before sunrise.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Cooter Brown » Wed Nov 09, 2011 4:30 pm

On ESPN, former PSU All-American LB Michael Haynes just said that this has been well known in the community for years, and many had told him about it including his mom (who still works at PSU), former players, and teammates. He said people were too scared to get in trouble if they spoke out.

I don't know if you can sue a university into bankruptcy and closure but we're about to find out.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Marlow » Wed Nov 09, 2011 4:52 pm

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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Conor Dary » Wed Nov 09, 2011 4:57 pm

mojo wrote:
guru wrote:
Marlow wrote:JoePa just announced his retirement for after this season. Good idea.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-400_162-573 ... e-tragedy/



Not enough. He needs to go immediately. Too bad he doesn't realize it, because I suspect the Board will do it for him.



Agreed guru. Gone. NOW. And the president and anyone else who knew of this to any degree.

Not one of these people put the children first. You see a man raping a young boy and walk away? Is that not aiding and abetting a serious crime? I can not get past that. How abandoned that poor little guy must have felt.


I agree completely. Paterno saying he will retire at the end of the season is ridiculous. The guy has to go now.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby balzonia » Wed Nov 09, 2011 6:01 pm

Cooter Brown wrote:I don't know if you can sue a university into bankruptcy and closure but we're about to find out.


In regards to restitution for the victims, beyond whatever $$$ settlement they may get, PSU needs to offer "full scholarships" (equivalent to a marquee football recruit) and all campus perks that go along with being a PSU football player to any and all of the victims and their offspring/descendants for the next 5 generations.

This act destroyed many families, perhaps PSU can salvage some of the victims' futures by offering a higher education to each future generation of descendants.

I thought the same thing about the Notre Dame kid who was killed after climbing a rig in gale force winds to film football practice.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby guru » Wed Nov 09, 2011 7:02 pm

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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Conor Dary » Wed Nov 09, 2011 7:15 pm

Just announced on ESPN. And rightly so. Also President is out.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Friar » Wed Nov 09, 2011 7:23 pm

Paterno out

Well it was a calculated closing move by Joe --or those advising him-- and it had a chance of working, as ridiculous as it was. But too many others are thinking about themselves now.
So he had to go... not just in a few weeks when he was ready.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby guru » Wed Nov 09, 2011 7:38 pm

Watching this press conference, and the absolute roasting the Board chairman was taking from what I assume were Penn State student journalists, the game atmosphere Saturday is going to be an absolute circus. That's if Penn State hasn't been burned to the ground by then.

I will say this though - while I fully agree he had to go, I am appalled that they dismissed Paterno by telephone.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Conor Dary » Wed Nov 09, 2011 7:41 pm

guru wrote:Watching this press conference, and the absolute roasting the Board chairman was taking from what I assume were Penn State student journalists, the game atmosphere Saturday is going to be an absolute circus. That's if Penn State hasn't been burned to the ground by then.

I will say this though - while I fully agree he had to go, I am appalled that they dismissed Paterno by telephone.


I was listening also. I was almost expecting one of those idiots to blame the kids.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby jazzcyclist » Wed Nov 09, 2011 7:45 pm

One of our local sports radio guys said that the Penn State job has now become radioactive and that they can forget about getting any of the big names they might have had in mind, such as Urban Meyer and Nick Saban.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby guru » Wed Nov 09, 2011 7:47 pm

jazzcyclist wrote:One of our local sports radio guys said that the Penn State job has now become radioactive and that they can forget about getting any of the big names they might have had in mind, such as Urban Meyer and Nick Saban.



Wonder if the former Temple coach, who got blindsided after taking the job down at Miami this year, would be interested in coming home. Would seem like a good choice from many angles.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby gh » Wed Nov 09, 2011 8:24 pm

jazzcyclist wrote:One of our local sports radio guys said that the Penn State job has now become radioactive and that they can forget about getting any of the big names they might have had in mind, such as Urban Meyer and Nick Saban.


hmm.... the half-life of any gamma-ray exposure on any BCS opening is oh.... 6 months, max?

My guess is that they will have zero problem filling the vacancy with a highly qualified applicant. Allow me to perhaps be the first ever to conflate Milton with big-league football: "better to reign in hell than serve in heaven" (Book 1, Paradise Lost)
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby SQUACKEE » Thu Nov 10, 2011 6:13 am

Paterno has tried to make what he was told by Mcgeary, as fuzzy as possible, but imo what transpired, maybe not literally but in ESSENCE was....

Hey coach I saw a crime commited in our locker room, should Icall the police?

No, do not call the police, I will inform a school adminstrator about your sugar coated version of the crime and when nothing is done we will just forget it ever happened.

That is unforgivable.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby 26mi235 » Thu Nov 10, 2011 6:45 am

Apparently, Paterno never asked Sandusky anything. I suppose that might be the most awkward conversation to have, but what did he think about every time he talked with Sandusky thereafter (or did he avoid talking with him completely?).

The grad assistant maintains that he told both Paterno and the two others, at the later meeting, explicitly what he saw. That bodes ill for both Paterno and the two guys because it is more clear that they took it nowhere while doing the necessary step to help keep Sandusky out of their place. Bad enough to ban him but not to even talk to campus police; the VP was in charge of campus police, so he should have had a much better appreciation of the implications. Did he talk to his attorney about this? Would that be a privileged conversation?

In addition, I read that one former player said that there was widespread rumors that somethings were going on. If this is the case, then somewhere, someone will say what he had heard and those above, from the coach to the guys that have been charged will be in even deeper hot water because they then were covering up the situation, not merely guilty of make a dubious decision to not go to police.

"In addition to severe reputational damage, Pennsylvania State University faces the prospect of huge financial exposure from lawsuits by sexual-abuse victims who can credibly charge the university had ample warning that its former assistant football coach preyed on children but did little or nothing to stop it, say trial lawyers who have been following the case."

http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/colleges/133584523.html
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby SQUACKEE » Thu Nov 10, 2011 6:51 am

The feds are now getting involved, apparently they will try to determine who knew about this and did not report it to police as they are required to do.

To clarify, the head officals at the college are required by law, not Mcgeary of Paterno.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Marlow » Thu Nov 10, 2011 6:57 am

26mi235 wrote:Pennsylvania State University faces the prospect of huge financial exposure from lawsuits by sexual-abuse victims who can credibly charge the university had ample warning that its former assistant football coach preyed on children but did little or nothing to stop it, say trial lawyers who have been following the case.


SQUACKEE wrote:The feds are now getting involved, apparently they will try to determine who knew about this and did not report it to police as they are required to do.

Even with the slaughter last night, they haven't seen the worst of this yet . . .

Now, the interesting part of all this is that there must be lots of skeletons buried on other campuses and have they learned it's better to tattle on oneself or face the prospect of being outed by victims emboldened by this (and Herman Cain's) case? :shock:
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby jazzcyclist » Thu Nov 10, 2011 7:04 am

SQUACKEE wrote:Paterno has tried to make what he was told by Mcgeary, as fuzzy as possible, but imo what transpired, maybe not literally but in ESSENCE was....

Hey coach I saw a crime commited in our locker room, should Icall the police?

No, do not call the police, I will inform a school adminstrator about your sugar coated version of the crime and when nothing is done we will just forget it ever happened.

That is unforgivable.

I don't think Paterno is that cynical. I think it was simply a case of him lacking the strength to do the right thing. Sandusky had been with him as either a player or coach for nearly 40 years, including the glory years of the 1980's, and he was probably like a son to him. I doubt that he ever felt good about the way the whole thing was handled. Maybe he was hoping that his A.D. or President would go to the cops and spare him of having to do something that would have been gut-wrenching. Mark Madoff did the right thing when he ratted his father out to the Feds and it eventually drove him to suicide.

Also, Paterno's age may have some bearing on his reaction since he came from a generation where it was a lot more common to sweep these things under the rug.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby jazzcyclist » Thu Nov 10, 2011 7:10 am

26mi235 wrote:Apparently, Paterno never asked Sandusky anything. I suppose that might be the most awkward conversation to have, but what did he think about every time he talked with Sandusky thereafter (or did he avoid talking with him completely?).

Paterno and Sandusky had to have had some conversation when Paterno forced his retirement in 1999 and made him return his keys to the facilities in 2002.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Halfmiler2 » Thu Nov 10, 2011 7:14 am

I heard from a Penn State alumnus some years ago that Harry Groves was pressured to retire as the track coach because Paterno wanted to have the most years as a head coach at Penn State. I can't vouch that this was true, but certainly Paterno would have been better off retiring long ago instead of this sad legacy.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby SQUACKEE » Thu Nov 10, 2011 7:30 am

jazzcyclist wrote:I don't think Paterno is that cynical. I think it was simply a case of him lacking the strength to do the right.
.


I dont think it was a matter of strenght.There is no smoking gun YET, but I believe Paterno knew EVERYTHING, either from Mcgeary that day or thru the grapevine afterwards (years and years after the rape and nobody talked about it? come on!) and he willing covered it up. I believe this will be proven eventually.

What amazes my is the stupidity of the people who hoped it would go away! This preadtor is so brazen, he's raping a 10 year old on the campus, and they didnt think he is going to get caught and everything will be revealed???? STOOPID! :roll:
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby jhc68 » Thu Nov 10, 2011 7:42 am

Yeah, serial sex criminals are stupid, but I doubt they believe they will never get caught. It's too deep and too nightmarish a quagmire to try to figure out why people persist in reprehensible behavior for decades... Madoff comes to mind.
Anyone else struck with the institutional comparisons here to various church heirarchy reactions to alleged or proven sexual predators among the clergy?
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