Penn State/State Pen [split]


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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby preston » Mon Jul 23, 2012 6:30 am

http://espn.go.com/college-football/sto ... ating-1998

The NCAA has hit Penn State with a $60 million sanction, a four-year football postseason ban and a vacation of all wins dating to 1998, the organization said Monday morning.

The career record of Joe Paterno will reflect these vacated records, the NCAA said.

Penn State must also reduce 10 initial and 20 total scholarships each year for a four-year period.

They should have shut down the athletic department and fucked every other sport at the same time. Aside from this involving a football coach, not a single football student-athlete was involved. This is crazy. Vacating wins! Reducing scholarships! Paterno didn't win all those games by himself, dedicated kids did! This implies that THEY did something wrong. We're punishing kids when it doesn't involve kids. This is a horrible precedent!
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby preston » Mon Jul 23, 2012 6:46 am

http://espn.go.com/college-football/sto ... ating-1998

...The NCAA ordered Penn State to pay the penalty funds into an endowment for "external programs preventing child sexual abuse or assisting victims and may not be used to fund such programs at the university."

How is this within the authority of the NCAA?

"This is unique and this kind of power has never been tested or tried," the former chair said. "It's unprecedented to have this extensive power. This has nothing to do with the purpose of the infractions process. Nevertheless, somehow (the NCAA president and executive board) have taken it on themselves to be a commissioner and to penalize a school for improper conduct."

The chair said that the NCAA was dealing with a case that is outside the traditional rules or violations. He said this case does not fall within the basic fundamental purpose of NCAA regulations.

"The purpose of the NCAA is to keep a level playing field among schools and to make sure they use proper methods through scholarships and etcetera," the chair said. "This is not a case that would normally go through the process. It has nothing to do with a level playing field. It has nothing to do with whether Penn State gets advantages over other schools in recruiting or in the number of coaches or things that we normally deal with."

The NCAA, the chair said, had never gotten involved in punishing schools for criminal behavior.

"The criminal courts are perfectly capable of handling these situations," the former chair said. "This is a new phase and a new thing. They are getting into bad behavior that are somehow connected to those who work in the athletic department.

"This is an important precedent. And it should be taken with extreme care."
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby jazzcyclist » Mon Jul 23, 2012 7:28 am

preston wrote:How is this within the authority of the NCAA?

It seems as though the NCAA is tacitly admitting that it's not within their authority but they're going to do ut anyway. Recently, they dropped the hammer on division III Cal Tech and a couple years ago they turned a blind eye to Auburn and Cam Newton in a situation in which there was a clear-cut violation of its bylaws, so this incident only serves to further discredit it.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby lonewolf » Mon Jul 23, 2012 7:33 am

The NCAA is consistent only in its inconsistency...and vice versa.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Conor Dary » Mon Jul 23, 2012 7:55 am

jazzcyclist wrote: , so this incident only serves to further discredit it.


With a new president bringing the hammer down on Penn State it shows the exact opposite. And remember PSU agreed to these sanctions.

    That the N.C.A.A. acted this quickly and decisively did not come as a particular surprise to the former Big 12 commissioner Dan Beebe, a former N.C.A.A. investigator. Beebe said that the N.C.A.A. has struggled to appear relevant recently while dealing with some of the major issues surrounding college sports, including high-profile cases of rules violations and conference realignment, and that the organization expressed a sincere interest in being more proactive at a retreat in Indianapolis last year.

    “I certainly think there have been a lot of changes and issues that have arisen that the N.C.A.A. hasn’t been able to get to,” said Beebe, who is a founding partner in BMT Risk Management, a company that advises colleges and professional sports teams on workplace misconduct.

    He added: “I think the N.C.A.A. wasn’t a part of realignment, and the playoff movement did not involve N.C.A.A. staff. I think this is an area, like you said, that’s unprecedented and horrific, and I think there’s a real focus on what the N.C.A.A. can and will do about it.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/24/sport ... ml?_r=1&hp
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby preston » Mon Jul 23, 2012 8:09 am

This is a perfect time for the Big 10, Big 12, Pac 12, SEC and ACC (doubtful as to whether the Big East should be included) to break off and create their own governing body and leave the NCAA to mid-majors, indies and whoever wants to remain.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby jazzcyclist » Mon Jul 23, 2012 8:42 am

preston wrote:This is a perfect time for the Big 10, Big 12, Pac 12, SEC and ACC (doubtful as to whether the Big East should be included) to break off and create their own governing body and leave the NCAA to mid-majors, indies and whoever wants to remain.

Amen! :!:
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby DrJay » Mon Jul 23, 2012 8:53 am

"Ed Ray, the president of Oregon State and the chairman of the N.C.A.A.'s executive committee, said the case, and the sanctions imposed, represented a declaration by university presidents and chancellors that 'this has to stop.' By that he meant a win-at-all-costs mentality with respect to intercollegiate sports.

'We’ve had enough,' he said."

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/24/sport ... =1&_r=1&hp
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby 18.99s » Mon Jul 23, 2012 9:04 am

preston wrote:How is this within the authority of the NCAA?


The NCAA can't really force Penn State to pay. What they can do is kick Penn State out of the NCAA if they don't pay. And kicking out a school for egregious wrongdoing is almost certainly in the authority of the NCAA.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Marlow » Mon Jul 23, 2012 10:10 am

preston wrote:We're punishing kids when it doesn't involve kids. This is a horrible precedent!

The villagers, pitchforks in hand, said 'burn it to the ground'. Had the NCAA not thrown the baby out with the bath (to mix metaphors), the pitchforks would have impaled the NCAA itself. It's kill or be killed. We wanted our pound of flesh (more allusions?!), so the NCAA gave it to us. Blame not the messenger (judge, jury and executioner); blame ourselves.

I have great empathy for all the truly innocent people who will be negatively affected by this sentence, but, on the other hand, the crime was heinous, and heads must roll. Collateral damage is a bitch.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby preston » Mon Jul 23, 2012 10:51 am

it's not just that, Marlow, its the idea that athletes should always be the scapegoats because most people don't believe they belong on a college campus anyway - or that they should be tolerated, begrudgingly. If a University president had found out that a department head fudged study numbers that would lead to a Nobel prize, govt/corp funding, whatever and said nothing I doubt they would eliminate the entire department or even a class. There's a possibility that the offending professor may not even lose his job - even if his professional credibility would be shot.

The athletes are being held to a higher standard than the students. And, if student athletes require a special designation of rules and procedures just pay them and stop the farce.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Marlow » Mon Jul 23, 2012 11:04 am

preston wrote:it's not just that, Marlow, its the idea that athletes should always be the scapegoats because most people don't believe they belong on a college campusanyway - or that they should be tolerated, begrudgingly.

Do you think that's universally true? I have never seen it or sensed it.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Daisy » Mon Jul 23, 2012 11:22 am

Marlow wrote:
preston wrote:it's not just that, Marlow, its the idea that athletes should always be the scapegoats because most people don't believe they belong on a college campusanyway - or that they should be tolerated, begrudgingly.

Do you think that's universally true? I have never seen it or sensed it.

My stance is that they should be paid and not be regarded as full time students when they are actually playing. My main concern is about the academic mission being compromised. One sure fire way to do that is to pretend that the student athletes have time to study. Or worse, create soft courses that they can pass at the same time as being a 'professional' athlete.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby j-a-m » Mon Jul 23, 2012 11:25 am

preston wrote:its the idea that athletes should always be the scapegoats because most people don't believe they belong on a college campus anyway - or that they should be tolerated, begrudgingly.

Just listened to the NCAA president talking about the sanctions; what bothers me is the language about "cultural change". That language seems to imply that student athletes are among those who were at fault, when in reality it were coaches and administrators.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby preston » Mon Jul 23, 2012 12:56 pm

Marlow wrote:
preston wrote:it's not just that, Marlow, its the idea that athletes should always be the scapegoats because most people don't believe they belong on a college campusanyway - or that they should be tolerated, begrudgingly.

Do you think that's universally true? I have never seen it or sensed it.

I absolutely think that's true, especially on the D1 level. I won't go as far as to say it's "universal" but there is [quite] a bit of bias and even some [racial] prejudice that buttresses that viewpoint. Whether it's radio call in, blog comments, TV commentators, layman, whatever there is a belief that athletes -particularly the middle class and low-income athletes that make up the majority of D1 TV school scholarship athletes- are not there on their merits. It's a viewpoint that is virulent on liberal/progressive sites like The Huffington Post (because they hate athletes there) and on "less" liberal/progressive sites like Track and Field News. :wink:
j-a-m wrote:Just listened to the NCAA president talking about the sanctions; what bothers me is the language about "cultural change". That language seems to imply that student athletes are among those who were at fault, when in reality it were coaches and administrators.

AMEN! The easiest way to say we've had enough is to allow any athlete anywhere to transfer for any reason to anywhere. When coaches AND schools realize that the student athletes will have the same rights as students, they will recruit kids who actually want to be at their school. Putting the power of education back in the hands of the students, and wresting it from the administrators (who often times force kids to take those soft courses), is the only thing that can save college athletics.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby lonewolf » Mon Jul 23, 2012 1:04 pm

Marlow wrote:[I have great empathy for all the truly innocent people who will be negatively affected by this sentence, but, on the other hand, the crime was heinous, and heads must roll. Collateral damage is a bitch.

Amen!
The fact that there are still Paterno defenders that just don't get it or don't care emphasizes the need to get their attention by draconian measures.
There will still be some who put Penn State football ahead of punishing pedophile enablers but at least they will know the consequences.
Penn State got off easy.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby IanS_Liv » Mon Jul 23, 2012 1:22 pm

The $60 million fund for victims and charities, and most importantly keeping it independent of Penn State control, is the sanction that made me the happiest.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Marlow » Mon Jul 23, 2012 1:37 pm

Daisy wrote:<y stance is that they should be paid and not be regarded as full time students when they are actually playing. My main concern is about the academic mission being compromised. One sure fire way to do that is to pretend that the student athletes have time to study. Or worse, create soft courses that they can pass at the same time as being a 'professional' athlete.

There certainly are horror stories, but there's also the Andrew Lucks of D1 who graduate with very real degrees in difficult majors.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby j-a-m » Mon Jul 23, 2012 1:39 pm

lonewolf wrote:Penn State got off easy.

If you compare it to Ohio State, Miami, or SMU back in the day, then yes, Penn State got off easy. What bothers me are not the sanctions as such, but the language used by the NCAA. This was not about a culture that put winning ahead of others things, this was about administrators covering up horrible crimes, plain and simple.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby TN1965 » Mon Jul 23, 2012 2:33 pm

j-a-m wrote:This was not about a culture that put winning ahead of others things, this was about administrators covering up horrible crimes, plain and simple.


And you think two are unrelated? What then do you think was the motivation of the administrators to cover up the crime?
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby j-a-m » Mon Jul 23, 2012 2:42 pm

TN1965 wrote:What then do you think was the motivation of the administrators to cover up the crime?

keep their jobs.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby lonewolf » Mon Jul 23, 2012 3:12 pm

j-a-m wrote:
TN1965 wrote:What then do you think was the motivation of the administrators to cover up the crime?

keep their jobs.

If so, they were thinking bassakward. Had they immediately reported and prosecuted Sandusky they would have kept their jobs...letting it go for fourteen years ensured they would be booted when found out.
They were just covering Penn State's (and Sandusky's) ass. IMO.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Marlow » Mon Jul 23, 2012 3:14 pm

j-a-m wrote:
TN1965 wrote:What then do you think was the motivation of the administrators to cover up the crime?

keep their jobs.

I think it was deeper than that . . . in the Navy there was always the idea of "not on my watch!" You don't want to be the guy who let everyone else down.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby jazzcyclist » Mon Jul 23, 2012 3:24 pm

j-a-m wrote:
TN1965 wrote:What then do you think was the motivation of the administrators to cover up the crime?

keep their jobs.

If they had been timely in their disclosure, why would they fear for their jobs?
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby j-a-m » Mon Jul 23, 2012 4:11 pm

jazzcyclist wrote:If they had been timely in their disclosure, why would they fear for their jobs?

Yes, and in addition to doing the wrong thing, they also made the wrong decision in terms of their job security. What I was trying to say is that whatever the administrators' reasons were to cover up those crimes, it had less to do with sports; and more to do with the general dynamics in a larger organisation, in which people follow the herd instead of doing what's right.

And that's where the NCAA gets it wrong when it talks about a culture "where winning was more important than everything else", instead of a culture of "following the herd".
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Conor Dary » Tue Jul 24, 2012 6:09 am

lonewolf wrote:
j-a-m wrote:
TN1965 wrote:What then do you think was the motivation of the administrators to cover up the crime?

keep their jobs.

If so, they were thinking bassakward. Had they immediately reported and prosecuted Sandusky they would have kept their jobs...letting it go for fourteen years ensured they would be booted when found out.
They were just covering Penn State's (and Sandusky's) ass. IMO.


From I have gathered from what I read in the papers, is that Paterno never wanted to turn Sandusky in. And the President, AD and others just kowtowed to the football god, Paterno.
Why they didn't realize that put them in deep shit later is amazing, but I suppose getting into positions of power at PSU required being spineless when it came to Paterno.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby jazzcyclist » Tue Jul 24, 2012 6:50 am

Conor Dary wrote:From I have gathered from what I read in the papers, is that Paterno never wanted to turn Sandusky in. And the President, AD and others just kowtowed to the football god, Paterno.
Why they didn't realize that put them in deep shit later is amazing, but I suppose getting into positions of power at PSU required being spineless when it came to Paterno.

I think that's exactly what happened. Paterno was blinded by personal loyalty, and because of his power, he was able to get all the other people involved to follow him off the cliff. I think Joe Boeheim gave some insight into Paterno's thinking when he had his come-to-Jesus moment after tapes were released than confirmed the allegations against his longtime assistant Bernie Fine. Initially, Boeheim defended Fine fervently:

"I supported a friend. I think it's important what I did. I'm proud I did that. I've known him for 46 years. We went to school together. I think I owed him a debt of allegiance."

But then the tapes came out and he saw his whole career flashing before his eyes. Here's an excerpt from his emotional, voice-quivering press conference:

I believe I misspoke very badly in my response to the allegations that have been made.

I shouldn’t have questioned what the accusers expressed or their motives. I am really sorry that I did that and I regret any harm that I caused. It was insensitive to the individuals involved and especially to the overall issue of child abuse.

What I said last week was out of loyalty. I reacted without thinking. I couldn’t believe what I was hearing. I’m trying to learn from my mistake, and this has been a hard time.


Keep in mind that college basketball insiders have said that taking ballboys on road trips is unheard of, and it's almost impossible to believe that Boeheim didn't suspect that something was a amiss with Fine. Overall, I believe that personal loyalty is a human character flaw a lot more often than it's a virtue.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby odelltrclan » Tue Jul 24, 2012 7:59 am

jazzcyclist wrote:"I supported a friend. I think it's important what I did. I'm proud I did that. I've known him for 46 years. We went to school together. I think I owed him a debt of allegiance."

Overall, I believe that personal loyalty is a human character flaw a lot more often than it's a virtue.


That issue gets compounded if the "friend" insists nothing took place and convinces the other of that, that the "event" that was reported was a misunderstanding. If you have been a friend of someone for a very long period of time you may have a difficult time believing that what was reported was the truth, or the full truth. If that loyal friend promises what was misinterpreted was an isolated incident that loyalty may become even more difficult. I am sure that there are many a loyal friend who knowingly covered up the action of friends without knowing the pervasiveness of their friends actions.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Conor Dary » Tue Jul 24, 2012 8:20 am

odelltrclan wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote:"I supported a friend. I think it's important what I did. I'm proud I did that. I've known him for 46 years. We went to school together. I think I owed him a debt of allegiance."

Overall, I believe that personal loyalty is a human character flaw a lot more often than it's a virtue.


That issue gets compounded if the "friend" insists nothing took place and convinces the other of that, that the "event" that was reported was a misunderstanding. If you have been a friend of someone for a very long period of time you may have a difficult time believing that what was reported was the truth, or the full truth. If that loyal friend promises what was misinterpreted was an isolated incident that loyalty may become even more difficult. I am sure that there are many a loyal friend who knowingly covered up the action of friends without knowing the pervasiveness of their friends actions.


All true. That is probably now why it is a crime for an administrator to not report it.

Remember Paterno was all powerful at Penn State. In 2004 the school tried to get him to retire and he said forget it and the President and AD wilted. That is pretty unique, even in big time football programs. Even when this scandal was breaking out last year, Paterno was working on getting a better contract, with more money. Paterno and everyone around had put the guy on such a pedestal that he thought, and everyone else, he was above approach, both morally and legally.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby jazzcyclist » Tue Jul 24, 2012 8:26 am

Conor Dary wrote:All true. That is probably now why it is a crime for an administrator to not report it.

Remember Paterno was all powerful at Penn State. In 2004 the school tried to get him to retire and he said forget it and the President and AD wilted. That is pretty unique, even in big time football programs. Even when this scandal was breaking out last year, Paterno was working on getting a better contract, with more money. Paterno and everyone around had put the guy on such a pedestal that he thought, and everyone else, he was above approach, both morally and legally.

Also remember that it still wasn't easy to get the board to fire him. The Governor, the Cingressman and both U.S. Senators had to go to State College and use a combination of begging and arm-twisting before they finally gave in.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Conor Dary » Tue Jul 24, 2012 8:31 am

Paterno was apparently a scholar of Greek and Latin. Tragically, he forgot the story of Icarus.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Marlow » Tue Jul 24, 2012 9:36 am

Conor Dary wrote:Paterno was apparently a scholar of Greek and Latin. Tragically, he forgot the story of Icarus.

This story is indeed a Greek tragedy - heroic flaws in otherwise noble heroes, hidden secrets that ruin everyone involved, no winners in the end.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Conor Dary » Tue Jul 24, 2012 9:37 am

This might be an indication of what awaits the exPSU officials:

    Msgr. William J. Lynn, the first Roman Catholic official in the United States to be convicted of covering up sexual abuses by priests under his supervision, was sentenced to three to six years in prison on Tuesday.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/25/us/ph ... se.html?hp
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Marlow » Tue Jul 24, 2012 10:13 am

What about the cops who were indeed notified in one case?
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Daisy » Tue Jul 24, 2012 10:19 am

Marlow wrote:What about the cops who were indeed notified in one case?

And on and on. In short, the whole of Happy Valley is tainted. Their program had reached cult status as shown by the denial within the current student body to this day.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Master Po » Tue Jul 24, 2012 1:43 pm

In light of the removal of the Paterno statue, I have been thinking a lot in recent days about the fact that the statue was there at all (installed in 2001). The fact that this statue was installed while Paterno was still the coach is, imo, emblematic of some of the problems at Penn State. I never knew the statue was there, and so was more surprised at its presence at all than at any of the responses to its removal.

So, I am really trying to come up with another case in which a sports figure -- an athlete or coach -- has been honored/commemorated/memorialized in a statue or other such way (jersey retired, etc.) while he or she is still engaged actively in the specific athletic role or career that led to the interest in commemoration in the first place. I'm not talking about the level of the US postage stamp "you have to be dead" rule (which I note in passing wasn't observed in the case of Elvis, but that's another story :wink: ); rather, I am thinking of the more general practice where the sports figure, by the time he or she is commemorated/etc., may still be living but is normally retired from or in some way far beyond active competition/participation in the role that made them commemoration-worthy in whatever context they are being honored. I know that someone may be honored in some way for her or his playing career, and now may be a coach or executive -- but that's different -- that person is being commemorated for being a player, and isn't a player any longer (and isn't going to return to that context). So, it seems exceptional (and odd) to me that the statue was installed at all back in 2001. It "commemorated" his coaching excellence at PSU while he was still in the practice of being the head coach at PSU. (And it did so in a particularly strong commemorative/memorial sort of way, with a statue, which I think is really unusual for the person still in the role, as I have tried to describe here.)

Right now, I can't think of another example to put alongside the Paterno statue being installed in 2001, while he was still head coach. Maybe this happens all the time, but I can't think of comparable cases. Does anyone else have examples?
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby jazzcyclist » Tue Jul 24, 2012 1:51 pm

Some Penn State trustees and alumni are mad at the President for caving to the NCAA without even briefing them. They feel Penn State would have been better off fighting it in court. Since even Mark Emmert admitted that Penn State hadn't violated any NCAA rules, and that the Sandusky scandal was outside the normal purview of their authority, they might have a point.

Penn State President Rodney Erickson drew fire from alumni and trustees Monday for signing the consent agreement that doomed Penn State to a four-year bowl ban, erased 112 football victories, reduced football scholarships and fined the university $60 million.

Some argued that Erickson caved to outside pressure and should have fought for lesser penalties or reserved Penn State’s right to appeal.

Some blasted the president’s decision to sign the consent agreement setting out the terms on Sunday night before he had briefed the full board. They called that an eerie echo of the leadership problems that helped lead Penn State to its problems in the first place.

Erickson, in a limited round of media interviews Monday afternoon, called the NCAA sanctions a “take it or leave it” deal that wasn’t going to get any better.


http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/index. ... nn_st.html
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby lonewolf » Tue Jul 24, 2012 2:13 pm

jazzcyclist wrote: Since even Mark Emmert admitted that Penn State hadn't violated any NCAA rules, and that the Sandusky scandal was outside the normal purview of their authority, they might have a point.

An excellent example that authority is not granted, it is seized.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Daisy » Tue Jul 24, 2012 2:14 pm

Master Po wrote:I can't think of another example to put alongside the Paterno statue being installed in 2001, while he was still head coach. Maybe this happens all the time, but I can't think of comparable cases. Does anyone else have examples?

Barry Alvarez has a statue that was erected in 2006. http://photos.news.wisc.edu/photos/5627/view

That was one year after he transitioned from football coach to athletic director. Not quite the same but he is still has massive influence on the campus.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby KevinM » Tue Jul 24, 2012 2:14 pm

Master Po wrote:Right now, I can't think of another example to put alongside the Paterno statue being installed in 2001, while he was still head coach. Maybe this happens all the time, but I can't think of comparable cases. Does anyone else have examples?


Dean Smith coached for 11 or 12 years in a building named after him. The practice seems to be getting a bit more common, especially with the naming of courts, such as Coach K court at Duke and (I believe) Pat Summitt court at Tennessee.

And I agree - it's as puzzling/disturbing in those three examples as it was in State College (though a statue takes the false idol thing to a ridiculous extreme).
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