Penn State/State Pen [split]


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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Pego » Mon Jul 16, 2012 9:04 am

Conor Dary wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote:
With all due respect, this is totally outside the purview of the NCAA's authority. The NCAA is supposed to police fair play among its member institutions, not delve into matters better left to the criminal justice system. Penn State got no competitive advantage from Sandusky's crimes and the subsequent cover-up.


Jazz, your reasoning is getting quite bizarre. They didn't get a competitive advantage? Oh, boy, is that the level of what the NCAA is about?

Suppose Sandusky was John Gacy and murdered his victims, would that be enough?


All jazzcyclist says is that this entire sordid mess belongs to criminal/civil courts and is not for the NCAA to act on.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Conor Dary » Mon Jul 16, 2012 9:32 am

Pego wrote:

All jazzcyclist says is that this entire sordid mess belongs to criminal/civil courts and is not for the NCAA to act on.


I guess so, but that could take years. Meanwhile, the PSU football team will be marching on to victory...and trying to forget everything that happened. Swell.

By the way, the Big Ten Network, to their credit, had an hour show about the scandal last night.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Conor Dary » Mon Jul 16, 2012 10:03 am

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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby odelltrclan » Mon Jul 16, 2012 10:52 am

Conor Dary wrote:I guess so, but that could take years. Meanwhile, the PSU football team will be marching on to victory...and trying to forget everything that happened. Swell.


Regardless of whether the program gets severe penalties from the NCAA or none (leaving it to the courts) I think the face of the football program will never be the same. They will always have a black eye from this in some form or another.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby TN1965 » Mon Jul 16, 2012 12:33 pm

jazzcyclist wrote: Everybody from the water boy to the President has been fired. There are no longer any people in the Penn State football program that had any ties to Paterno and/or Sandusky. What more would you want them to do?


So these people are no longer with the program? Why are they still listed on their website?

Fran Ganter
http://www.gopsusports.com/genrel/ganter_fran00.html

Larry Johnson
http://www.gopsusports.com/sports/m-foo ... rry00.html

Ron Vanderlinden
http://www.gopsusports.com/sports/m-foo ... ron00.html
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Friar » Tue Jul 17, 2012 6:37 pm

It appears they will take down Joe's likeness at Brown (alma mater). The Red Sox asked that stat-man Bill James keep his opinions on Joe to himself. I don't think I agree with the former, the latter is cool.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby jazzcyclist » Tue Jul 17, 2012 8:02 pm

TN1965 wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote: Everybody from the water boy to the President has been fired. There are no longer any people in the Penn State football program that had any ties to Paterno and/or Sandusky. What more would you want them to do?


So these people are no longer with the program? Why are they still listed on their website?

Fran Ganter
http://www.gopsusports.com/genrel/ganter_fran00.html

Larry Johnson
http://www.gopsusports.com/sports/m-foo ... rry00.html

Ron Vanderlinden
http://www.gopsusports.com/sports/m-foo ... ron00.html

I'm surprised that they were kept on. Last year, it was considered a foregone conclusion that O'Brien would have to start from scratch. I wonder why the media let his decision to keep them fly under the radar.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby 26mi235 » Wed Jul 18, 2012 1:45 pm

Conor Dary wrote:Jazz, I know you are a decent fellow and all, and I mean no offense, but your thinking somehow strikes me as similar to how Penn State got into this whole mess.


I do not think this is accurate at all, even if it seems like it might be on the surface.

Giving the school the NCAA 'death penalty' might make people feel good, but would it really be much of a deterrent to a Sandusky? What would lead to the Paternos doing the right thing the next tie. At the Rose Bowl trip this year a Wisconsin Asst (Associate?) AD was hitting on (male) student workers and was immediately booted as soon as they got back and could interview the person -- probably an accelerated reaction due to Penn State, but it probably would have happened in some manner.

While it is not the main point, it is not irrelevant that shutting down the football program will likely result in thousands of people being unemployed with many, many families, often struggling ones, adversely affected.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby TN1965 » Wed Jul 18, 2012 2:28 pm

FWIW...

"NCAA president talks about possible Penn State sanctions"

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/ncaaf-dr- ... ncaaf.html
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Conor Dary » Wed Jul 18, 2012 2:51 pm

26mi235 wrote:

While it is not the main point, it is not irrelevant that shutting down the football program will likely result in thousands of people being unemployed with many, many families, often struggling ones, adversely affected.


I understand that. But that is a question with lots of things that get shut down. Industries, too many prisons, etc.

But if you can shut down SMU's program, and I didn't see anyone moaning about those workers, what do you do with Penn State? And the NCAA is going to do something.

Personally I hope they lower the boom.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/17/opini ... .html?_r=1
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby jazzcyclist » Wed Jul 18, 2012 3:44 pm

Conor Dary wrote:I understand that. But that is a question with lots of things that get shut down. Industries, too many prisons, etc.

But if you can shut down SMU's program, and I didn't see anyone moaning about those workers, what do you do with Penn State? And the NCAA is going to do something.

Personally I hope they lower the boom.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/17/opini ... .html?_r=1

CD, you don't have to agree with me on whether the NCAA should get involved or not, but do you even understand the underlying difference between the SMU and Penn State scandals?
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Conor Dary » Wed Jul 18, 2012 4:26 pm

jazzcyclist wrote: but do you even understand the underlying difference between the SMU and Penn State scandals?


Jazz, you are getting really annoying on this. Screw the football team. I hope Happy Valley and the whole area goes into bankruptcy.

The NCAA is going to lower the boom. The sooner the better.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby gh » Wed Jul 18, 2012 4:31 pm

don't make me invoke Rule 14 here guys (as happened to one of the Symmonds threads this afternoon)
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Conor Dary » Wed Jul 18, 2012 5:19 pm

gh wrote:don't make me invoke Rule 14 here guys (as happened to one of the Symmonds threads this afternoon)


Saved by the bell. I have no more to say. At this point it is up to PSU and/or the NCAA.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Daisy » Wed Jul 18, 2012 5:24 pm

Is it viable to spin off the D1 football teams into a semi-professional farm team league? Any sports program that is big enough to damage the academic mission really has no business being part of a university.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Conor Dary » Wed Jul 18, 2012 5:26 pm

Daisy wrote:Is it viable to spin off the D1 football teams into a semi-professional farm team league? Any sports program that is big enough to damage the academic mission really has no business being part of a university.


Hey, I like that idea.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Daisy » Wed Jul 18, 2012 5:31 pm

Conor Dary wrote:Hey, I like that idea.

One potential problem. Would the players still work for free?
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Conor Dary » Wed Jul 18, 2012 5:40 pm

Daisy wrote:
Conor Dary wrote:Hey, I like that idea.

One potential problem. Would the players still work for free?


Aye, there's the rub.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby jazzcyclist » Wed Jul 18, 2012 6:53 pm

Daisy wrote:
Conor Dary wrote:Hey, I like that idea.

One potential problem. Would the players still work for free?

Another consequence is that with the exception of division I men's basketball, it would mark the end of big-time college sports as we know, including our beloved track and field.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Bruce Kritzler » Wed Jul 18, 2012 8:29 pm

jazzcyclist wrote:With all due respect, this is totally outside the purview of the NCAA's authority. The NCAA is supposed to police fair play among its member institutions, not delve into matters better left to the criminal justice system. Penn State got no competitive advantage from Sandusky's crimes and the subsequent cover-up. Even with the Baylor men's basketball team scandal, which involved drug dealing, murder and murder cover-up, the NCAA kept its beak out. And when you consider how incompetent the NCAA is at doing the job it's supposed to do - turning a blind eye at Auburn, Cam Newton and Ohio State while going after low hanging fruit like Cal Tech - do you really want them involved in criminal justice matters too?


It's called "Lack of Institutional control" (the biggest ncaa violation)
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Pego » Thu Jul 19, 2012 5:00 am

jazzcyclist wrote:
Daisy wrote:
Conor Dary wrote:Hey, I like that idea.

One potential problem. Would the players still work for free?

Another consequence is that with the exception of division I men's basketball, it would mark the end of big-time college sports as we know, including our beloved track and field.


Exactly. Heresy of Daisy and Conor Dary calls for a burning at stake. Nothing less would suffice.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby jazzcyclist » Thu Jul 19, 2012 5:38 am

Bruce Kritzler wrote:It's called "Lack of Institutional control" (the biggest ncaa violation)

I think you need to read up on what LOIC actually means.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Daisy » Thu Jul 19, 2012 7:29 am

Pego wrote:Heresy of Daisy and Conor calls for a burning at stake. Nothing less would suffice.

We'd only lose a few track programs :twisted:

Don't the europeans manage fine without university level sports? Or do their clubs fill the gap? Sometimes I wonder whether the clubs are actually healthier as there is more involvement at all ages rather than just packing it in after university.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby odelltrclan » Fri Jul 20, 2012 7:00 am

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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Conor Dary » Fri Jul 20, 2012 8:02 am

odelltrclan wrote:http://chronicle.com/article/Big-Ten-Conference-Could/132983/#top

Hmmm! Interesting.


Yes, if true, I think the Big Ten is telling Penn State they do some serious action.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby dukehjsteve » Fri Jul 20, 2012 1:26 pm

I just heard on the radio that PSU is taking down Paterno's statue.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Conor Dary » Fri Jul 20, 2012 5:36 pm

dukehjsteve wrote:I just heard on the radio that PSU is taking down Paterno's statue.


Perhaps the threat of being kicked out of the Big Ten is having an effect.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Bruce Kritzler » Sat Jul 21, 2012 1:40 pm

jazzcyclist wrote:
Bruce Kritzler wrote:It's called "Lack of Institutional control" (the biggest ncaa violation)

I think you need to read up on what LOIC actually means.


It means whatever the NCAA Infraction Committee wants it to mean. (big Catch-All)
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby TN1965 » Sat Jul 21, 2012 2:40 pm

I also have to wonder whether PSU did not gain any competitive advantage by covering up the crime. If it had been exposed in 1998, could they have recruited the players they did since then? How is that interpreted?
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby jazzcyclist » Sat Jul 21, 2012 3:40 pm

TN1965 wrote:I also have to wonder whether PSU did not gain any competitive advantage by covering up the crime. If it had been exposed in 1998, could they have recruited the players they did since then? How is that interpreted?

Now that's an Orwellian interpretation competitive advantage. :roll:
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby jazzcyclist » Sat Jul 21, 2012 3:48 pm

Bruce Kritzler wrote:It means whatever the NCAA Infraction Committee wants it to mean. (big Catch-All)


Actually it has to do with people acting on behalf of the athletic department without any oversight. The vast majority of the time it involves rogue boosters, but it can involve university employees who are acting without the consent of a coach and/or athletic director. Ironiocally, SMU didn't have a LOIC situation because all the decsions involving money and gifts to player were discussed and approved at meetings which included the athletic director, the President, the board of dorectors and the Governor.
:shock:
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Conor Dary » Sat Jul 21, 2012 3:49 pm

jazzcyclist wrote:
TN1965 wrote:I also have to wonder whether PSU did not gain any competitive advantage by covering up the crime. If it had been exposed in 1998, could they have recruited the players they did since then? How is that interpreted?

Now that's an Orwellian interpretation competitive advantage. :roll:


Not at all. :roll:
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby jazzcyclist » Sat Jul 21, 2012 3:59 pm

Conor Dary wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote:
TN1965 wrote:I also have to wonder whether PSU did not gain any competitive advantage by covering up the crime. If it had been exposed in 1998, could they have recruited the players they did since then? How is that interpreted?

Now that's an Orwellian interpretation competitive advantage. :roll:


Not at all. :roll:

CD, you've already proven that you're too obtuse to understand the underlying difference between Penn State and SMU. So I suggest that we follow gh's request to follow rule #14, since there won't be any constructive debate between you and I on this topic.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Conor Dary » Sat Jul 21, 2012 4:07 pm

jazzcyclist wrote:
Conor Dary wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote:
TN1965 wrote:I also have to wonder whether PSU did not gain any competitive advantage by covering up the crime. If it had been exposed in 1998, could they have recruited the players they did since then? How is that interpreted?

Now that's an Orwellian interpretation competitive advantage. :roll:


Not at all. :roll:

CD, you've already proven that you're too obtuse to understand the underlying difference between Penn State and SMU.


It is over jazz. :roll:
Last edited by Conor Dary on Sat Jul 21, 2012 4:36 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby TrakFan » Sat Jul 21, 2012 4:31 pm

Conor Dary wrote:Jazz, I know you are a decent fellow and all, and I mean no offense...


jazzcyclist wrote:
I don't take anything you've said personally, so the qualifiers aren't necessary as long as you attack my message and not me


Fellas, what happened to the "luuuuuv" :lol:
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Conor Dary » Sat Jul 21, 2012 4:36 pm

TrakFan wrote:
Conor Dary wrote:Jazz, I know you are a decent fellow and all, and I mean no offense...


jazzcyclist wrote:
I don't take anything you've said personally, so the qualifiers aren't necessary as long as you attack my message and not me


Fellas, what happened to the "luuuuuv" :lol:


It is over.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Conor Dary » Sun Jul 22, 2012 6:12 am

Penn State Removes Paterno Statue.

http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Conor Dary » Sun Jul 22, 2012 6:42 am

Well, well, it looks like the NCAA is going to do something.

    The NCAA will announce "corrective and punitive measures" for Penn State on Monday morning, it said in a statement, with CBS News reporting the penalties to be "unprecedented," affecting the football program and the school.

    NCAA president Mark Emmert will reveal the sanctions Monday at 9 a.m. ET in Indianapolis at the organization's headquarters along with Ed Ray, the chairman of the NCAA's executive committee and Oregon State's president, the news release said.

http://espn.go.com/college-football/sto ... tany-lions
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Marlow » Sun Jul 22, 2012 9:06 am

The crawl on the British Open coverage says it involves loss of bowl appearances and scholarships.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Conor Dary » Sun Jul 22, 2012 9:07 am

Marlow wrote:The crawl on the British Open coverage says it involves loss of bowl appearances and scholarships.


And take away their lollipops. Wow, that is really tough. Unprecedented! On par with the Cal Tech sanctions. :roll:
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