A place for the discussion of all things not closely related to the sport and its competitive side. (Locked down several times a year during the major championships)
IanS_Liv wrote:I wouldn't call for a complete removal of the football programme, but I would like to see a 5 year ban of it as a penalty for Penn State. I doubt there's a mechanism for that, unfortunately.
How do you pay for all the other sports, including track and field, during this five-year period, send the bill to the Pennsylvania taxpayers?
That hardly seems terribly important.
It may not be important to you, but it's a question that must be dealt with by the folks at Penn State responsible for paying the bills, like the President and the Athletic Director.
I don't see that as a remote possibility (or even 'fair' in the strictest sense - it punishes (greatly) the current team), but there does need to be some draconian penance paid. This is much worse than the SMU scandal that gave them the death-penalty (which I also did not totally agree with).
This isn't a football competition issue, a la SMU, and as ESPN's legal experts have pointed out, it's outside the purview of the NCAA's authority. Furthermore, I don't recall any demands for the Vatican to shut down a single church when its pedophilia epidemic came to light and it was a lot broader and longer lasting than the Sandusky scandal.
Perhaps the NCAA does not have unlimited punitive powers but a university cannot be absolved by the resignation or firing of the guilty officials. Somebody gotta come down hard on somebody or there is no deterrant to such shenanigans.
lonewolf wrote:Perhaps the NCAA does not have unlimited punitive powers but a university cannot be absolved by the resignation or firing of the guilty officials. Somebody gotta come down hard on somebody or there is no deterrant to such shenanigans.
Everybody from the water boy to the President has been fired. There are no longer any people in the Penn State football program that had any ties to Paterno and/or Sandusky. What more would you want them to do?
Danged if I know. I had not heard there was a general housecleaning.. I do not think anyone who had no knowledge of the situation should be fired.. I also don't know how to identify the unguilty.. the asst coach who reported the 1998 shower incident to Paterno was still coaching last season.. The surviving guilty conspirators should be prosecuted to discourge future coverups by universities/officials in similar circumstances..and Penn State should ease up on the reported posthumous largess bestowed on the Paterno family..
As ill as this case makes me feel whenever I encounter it, I still drop in to read this thread occasionally, because there has been a very good discussion along the way of these crimes. Agree w gh's & lonewolf's posts, just above, and -- sadly -- especially agree w IanS_Liv's post, here:
IanS_Liv wrote: ... This kind of looking the other way is not unusual within institutions. I think that "look at the example of the Catholic Church" is about as far as I can go on this forum!
In fact parents have been known to look the other way when the other parent is the perpetrator. Either for fear of the guilty party or not wanting to acknowledge abuse and the tearing apart of their family or exposure to shame. Siblings, even ones who have also been victimised, can often turn viciously against a sibling that raises the issue. So, the turning of two blind eyes is not unexpected. ...
Very well stated. The nature of this category of crime -- so obviously heinous against so obviously vulnerable victims -- seems in too many cases to make people look away and thus, however passively, become complicit. As much as I know this to be the case on some level, I will never fully comprehend it.
lonewolf wrote:Danged if I know. I had not heard there was a general housecleaning.. I do not think anyone who had no knowledge of the situation should be fired.. I also don't know how to identify the unguilty.. the asst coach who reported the 1998 shower incident to Paterno was still coaching last season.. The surviving guilty conspirators should be prosecuted to discourge future coverups by universities/officials in similar circumstances..and Penn State should ease up on the reported posthumous largess bestowed on the Paterno family..
McQueery is no longer at Penn State. One of the things that Penn State alumnus were so upset about is that when they hired a new coach, they didn't even consider anyone with Penn State ties, and when Bill O'Brien put his staff together, he hired all people without Penn State ties. Penn State basically fumigated the football program after the season was over.
I have never been a real college football fan, having worked at a state univ., with a good football team and little in the way of academics. Having the tail wag the dog is never a good idea. I have been amazed at the "support" of PSU students/alumni to their "God" - the football program. Many have said Paterno and the football program put PSU on the map nationally and helped the univ. in general. Material science has always been a strong suit at PSU, and names like Rustam Roy are known by scientists well beyond narrow limits of the subject. I would hope that (federal) granting agencies like NSF, are not apt to hand out loads of money to univs. just because they have a strong football or other sports program.
<<....If Ohio State gets a one-year bowl ban for players selling jerseys, what should Penn State get for selling out a whole community? If Reggie Bush cost Southern California a four-year probation for accepting cash and cars, what should Penn State get for letting a child molester use its locker rooms for his perverse fantasies?...>>
gh wrote:But I think the point here is that the fumigating that's needed isn't necessarily in the football program.
Yes, indeed.
If not the football program, what are you two suggesting? The AD has been replaced as well as the President and everyone in between. I guess the board could also be replaced with folks without Penn State ties. Who else should be replaced? How broad should the fumigation be?
gh wrote:But I think the point here is that the fumigating that's needed isn't necessarily in the football program.
Yes, indeed.
If not the football program, what are you two suggesting? The AD has been replaced as well as the President and everyone in between. I guess the board could also be replaced with folks without Penn State ties. Who else should be replaced? How broad should the fumigation be?
When you see headlines like this:
Penn State football recruits using Jerry Sandusky scandal as motivation
I want to throw up. They still don't get it in Happy Valley.
gh wrote:But I think the point here is that the fumigating that's needed isn't necessarily in the football program.
Yes, indeed.
If not the football program, what are you two suggesting? The AD has been replaced as well as the President and everyone in between. I guess the board could also be replaced with folks without Penn State ties. Who else should be replaced? How broad should the fumigation be?
When you see headlines like this:
Penn State football recruits using Jerry Sandusky scandal as motivation
I want to throw up. They still don't get it in Happy Valley.
CD, plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose. Over two hundred years ago, Schiller wrote something like "Against stupidity, the Gods themselves battle in vain". Perhaps an earlier apt quote can be found.
lonewolf wrote:Let me get this straight. These 18 year olds are motivated by the rape of 10 year old boys to perpetuate the glory of Penn State football?
Delightful, isn't it?
A real question: are collegiate football programs so scarce and endangered that the nation can't afford to lose one?
kuha wrote:are collegiate football programs so scarce and endangered that the nation can't afford to lose one?
The good news is that even with NO more penalties, the damage to PSU is devastating. At this point only the university itself can meaningfully punish itself further - and it should - but it won't.
In a state where policemen and fireman have had their salaries cut to minimum wage in order to make ends meet, how can Penn State "meaningfully punish itself further" without enraging the Pennsylvania taxpayers even more than they already are? That's the dilemma.
jazzcyclist wrote:In a state where policemen and fireman have had their salaries cut to minimum wage in order to make ends meet, how can Penn State "meaningfully punish itself further" without enraging the Pennsylvania taxpayers even more than they already are? That's the dilemma.
Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn. If the economics and well-being of Pennsylvanians depend on the Penn State football team, then it really is fucked up.
CD, plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose. Over two hundred years ago, Schiller wrote something like "Against stupidity, the Gods themselves battle in vain". Perhaps an earlier apt quote can be found.
jazzcyclist wrote:In a state where policemen and fireman have had their salaries cut to minimum wage in order to make ends meet, how can Penn State "meaningfully punish itself further" without enraging the Pennsylvania taxpayers even more than they already are? That's the dilemma.
It's not about money. Eradicating all JoePa references on campus, acknowledging the heinous complicity of the HIGHEST officials, doing things that make it clear that they are ASHAMED of the football program during those years. LOTS more people knew about this skeleton in the closet, so the fumigation needs to sink into every nook and cranny of the institution. I lived in Germany several times and they did a very thorough job of taking responsibility. This is not on a par with the Holocaust, but it's lots worse than Reggie Bush or boosters paying kids under the table.
Conor Dary wrote:Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn. If the economics and well-being of Pennsylvanians depend on the Penn State football team, then it really is fucked up.
Can the season.
This isn't what rational people would call a well-reasoned suggestion. These practical matters can't be ignored.
Jazz, I know you are a decent fellow and all, and I mean no offense, but your thinking somehow strikes me as similar to how Penn State got into this whole mess.
Tell that to the folks in Pennsylvania. I'm pretty sure it will fall on deaf ears to the policemen and firemen who had their salaries cut by 80%.
Marlow wrote:I lived in Germany several times and they did a very thorough job of taking responsibility.
What's the saying about bringing Hitler and Holocaust references to a debate?
Marlow, a very poor choice to bring to this or almost any debate. Jazz, a 80% cut in salary? A person who made $100K per year (say) , is reduced to $20K, and would have to be really in a panic to accept such a pay cut.
catson52 wrote:Jazz, a 80% cut in salary? A person who made $100K per year (say) , is reduced to $20K, and would have to be really in a panic to accept such a pay cut.
Although there may not be a lot of 100K to 20K folk in Scranton, PA the salraies of police officers and firefighters have been cut to minimum wage due to budget woes. Yes, at the moment firefighters in Scranton must run into burning buildings for $7.25 an hour.
http://www.allgov.com/Where_is_the_Mone ... age_120713 "Mayor Chris Doherty of Scranton, Pennsylvania (population: 76,000), is not a popular man with public employee unions, not after slashing the salaries of 398 police, firefighters and other city workers down to minimum wage ($7.25/hr) starting with their paychecks last Friday."
Conor Dary wrote:Jazz, I know you are a decent fellow and all, and I mean no offense, but your thinking somehow strikes me as similar to how Penn State got into this whole mess.
I don't take anything you've said personally, so the qualifiers aren't necessary as long as you attack my message and not me. You can sit in the comfort of your living room and say you don't give a damn about the practical considerations, but the folks in charge don't have that luxury. The reason why our country is $16 trillion in debt and governments all over Europe are collapsing is because politicians have been as fiscally irresponsible as you're suggestinmg that the folks at Penn State be. If you're going to shut down a revenue stream, then you also need to be prepared to cut back on spending by an equal amount. You want to shut down the football program? Fine, shut down the entire athletic department which is supported by the revenues that the football program generates. Anyone who isn't advocating something as Draconian as that isn't really offering a solution IMO.
Having said this, I have one question for you. Do you believe that the Catholic church has done enough to atone for the sins of its many priests all over the world who committed crimes similar to Sandusky? And just in case you're wondering, I'm Catholic.
Conor Dary wrote:Jazz, I know you are a decent fellow and all, and I mean no offense, but your thinking somehow strikes me as similar to how Penn State got into this whole mess.
I can't speak for Jazz, but I think he's satisfied with the HOUSECLEANING that has occurred within Penn State, however, I don't think he feels it would be fair for "Mary and Joe Vendor" to lose their HOUSE (literally) by killing the football program.
catson52 wrote:Jazz, a 80% cut in salary? A person who made $100K per year (say) , is reduced to $20K, and would have to be really in a panic to accept such a pay cut.
Conor Dary wrote:Jazz, I know you are a decent fellow and all, and I mean no offense, but your thinking somehow strikes me as similar to how Penn State got into this whole mess.
I don't take anything you've said personally, so the qualifiers aren't necessary as long as you attack my message and not me.
Having said this, I have one question for you. Do you believe that the Catholic church has done enough to atone for the sins of its many priests all over the world who committed crimes similar to Sandusky? And just in case you're wondering, I'm Catholic.
I am glad you aren't taking it personally. I appreciate your posts, especially when we disagree, you raise good points, and while I may not change my mind it does give me a different perspective.
As for the money thing, I think you are exaggerating it. Football programs generate a lot of money but they also spend it. Most programs barely break even.
As for the Catholic church, don't get me started there, but since you ask, no.
catson52 wrote:Jazz, a 80% cut in salary? A person who made $100K per year (say) , is reduced to $20K, and would have to be really in a panic to accept such a pay cut.
Although there may not be a lot of 100K to 20K folk in Scranton, PA the salraies of police officers and firefighters have been cut to minimum wage due to budget woes. Yes, at the moment firefighters in Scranton must run into burning buildings for $7.25 an hour.
http://www.allgov.com/Where_is_the_Mone ... age_120713 "Mayor Chris Doherty of Scranton, Pennsylvania (population: 76,000), is not a popular man with public employee unions, not after slashing the salaries of 398 police, firefighters and other city workers down to minimum wage ($7.25/hr) starting with their paychecks last Friday."
lonewolf wrote:Let me get this straight. These 18 year olds are motivated by the rape of 10 year old boys to perpetuate the glory of Penn State football?
I suppose if they could imagine, for even a minute, it was their brother, or even themselves, they might sing a different tune. But probably not.
Conor Dary wrote:As for the money thing, I think you are exaggerating it. Football programs generate a lot of money but they also spend it. Most programs barely break even.
Actually most FBS athletic departments barely break even or lose money because after it pays the bills of all the other sports, there's no money left over. However, football programs, like Penn State, make way, way more money than they spend. FYI, in 2010 Penn State football brought in $70,208,584.00 and only spent $19,780,939.00, which means it made a profit of $50,427,645.00.
