Penn State/State Pen [split]


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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby lonewolf » Tue Jul 03, 2012 1:50 pm

Is anyone surprised by these belated revelations?
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Master Po » Tue Jul 03, 2012 3:00 pm

I guess I am somehow at once both surprised and not surprised. At some point in all of this I asked myself, rhetorically, "How could this be any worse?" Well, these surprising-and-not-surprising revelations somehow makes this even worse, at least for me. I knew already that supposedly responsible adults had turned away from knowledge of the abuse of children, but there's something in this news about the deliberateness of their turning away -- these people consulted with each other, thought about their options, considered what they really valued, and proceeded to turn away. Seeing those actions in this news makes me more ill in thinking about this than I was before.

Being a very flawed person who has mostly fallen short of his ideals, I am wary of directing moral condemnation at others when I have never been in their situation, but --- as so many others have attested to in this thread -- these actions and failures to act are heinous. I hope these others are brought to some form of accounting for their actions and punished for what seem to me to be actions that make them accessories to child abuse.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby SQUACKEE » Wed Jul 04, 2012 10:24 am

Master Po wrote:I guess I am somehow at once both surprised and not surprised. At some point in all of this I asked myself, rhetorically, "How could this be any worse?" Well, these surprising-and-not-surprising revelations somehow makes this even worse, at least for me. I knew already that supposedly responsible adults had turned away from knowledge of the abuse of children, but there's something in this news about the deliberateness of their turning away -- these people consulted with each other, thought about their options, considered what they really valued, and proceeded to turn away. Seeing those actions in this news makes me more ill in thinking about this than I was before.

Being a very flawed person who has mostly fallen short of his ideals, I am wary of directing moral condemnation at others when I have never been in their situation, but --- as so many others have attested to in this thread -- these actions and failures to act are heinous. I hope these others are brought to some form of accounting for their actions and punished for what seem to me to be actions that make them accessories to child abuse.


Well said and I don't think there is anything else to say right now. We will wait to see the next chapter.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby 26mi235 » Thu Jul 12, 2012 8:06 am

Free report coming in:

Penn State leaders including former President Graham Spanier and late football coach Joe Paterno covered up Jerry Sandusky's child sexual abuse for years to save the reputation of the school and its multimillon-dollar football program, former FBI director Louis Freeh said on Thursday.


http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/sns-rt-us-usa-crime-sanduskybre86b05d-20120711,0,5217577.story

The most damaging evidence came from the discovery of "critical" emails exchanged in 1998 and 2001.

Among the emails was a series in which top school officials discussed reporting the allegations about Sandusky to authorities, even going so far as to propose a plan. After speaking with Paterno, however, "they changed the plan and decided not to make a report" to police or child protective services.

"Their failure to protect the February 9, 2001 child victim, or make attempts to identify him, created a dangerous situation for other unknown, unsuspecting young boys who were lured to the Penn State campus and football games by Sandusky and victimized repeatedly by him," Freeh said.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Conor Dary » Thu Jul 12, 2012 8:39 am

    "The most powerful men at Penn State failed to take any steps for 14 years to protect the children who Sandusky victimized," Freeh said.

    "In short, nothing was done and Sandusky was allowed to continue with impunity," he added.

    "Messrs. Spanier, Schultz, Paterno and Curley never demonstrated, through actions or words, any concern for the safety and well-being of Sandusky's victims until after Sandusky's arrest," Freeh said.

    "Even though they all knew about the 1998 incident, the best they could muster to protect Sandusky's victims was to ask Sandusky not to bring his 'guests' into the Penn State facilities," Freeh said.

What a cesspool Penn State has sunk into.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby jazzcyclist » Thu Jul 12, 2012 9:42 am

Right on cue, Christine Breenan appears on ESPN doing her usual screeching calling for Penn State football to be shut down. Of course she would be up in arms over the loss of the women scholarships if Penn State were to do such a thing. Hats off to Chris McKendry for telling her how ridiculous this idea is.
Last edited by jazzcyclist on Thu Jul 12, 2012 9:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Marlow » Thu Jul 12, 2012 9:49 am

jazzcyclist wrote:Right on cue, Christine Breenan appears on ESPN doing her usual screeching calling for Penn State football to be shut down.

Anyone who knew (and there had to be DOZENS) have to go, but there's a silver lining. Bad things happen occasionally in almost every program, and perhaps, given the enormity of the PSU situation, people will be less likely to attempt a cover-up. [he said, overly optimistically]
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby jazzcyclist » Thu Jul 12, 2012 9:52 am

Marlow wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote:Right on cue, Christine Breenan appears on ESPN doing her usual screeching calling for Penn State football to be shut down.

Anyone who knew (and there had to be DOZENS) have to go, but there's a silver lining. Bad things happen occasionally in almost every program, and perhaps, given the enormity of the PSU situation, people will be less likely to attempt a cover-up.

But everyone from the water boy to the President has been run off, and certainly none of the players from that era are still on the team.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby gh » Thu Jul 12, 2012 10:12 am

Not exactly... as the Brennan you despise pointed out in a column before the decision, the ex-prez is still a tenured faculty member.

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/columnis ... 56151882/1

Meanwhile, didn't I read the other day that the school just enjoyed a recordbreaking year in the donations department?
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby jazzcyclist » Thu Jul 12, 2012 11:30 am

gh wrote:Not exactly... as the Brennan you despise pointed out in a column before the decision, the ex-prez is still a tenured faculty member.


But if he's tenured, the school's hands are tied unless he's convicted of a crime.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby 26mi235 » Thu Jul 12, 2012 12:14 pm

The Penn State people that I talked with at the Big Ten meet were not happy campers about what the football people and the admin side linked with them had done and I got the sense that they did not particularly like the football side/dominance even before this came to light. Of course, I suspect that Harry Grove would not have left it to 'getting a sense' as he tended to speak his mind and not mince words in the one occasion I had to talk with him.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Pego » Thu Jul 12, 2012 1:15 pm

Marlow wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote:Right on cue, Christine Breenan appears on ESPN doing her usual screeching calling for Penn State <a class="inlineAdmedialink" href="#">football</a> to be shut down.

Anyone who knew (and there had to be DOZENS) have to go, but there's a silver lining. Bad things happen occasionally in almost every program, and perhaps, given the enormity of the PSU situation, people will be less likely to attempt a cover-up. [he said, overly optimistically]


Sorry Marlow, no silver lining, just a depressing revelation. And yes, you are overly optimistic here, naive even :( .
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby kuha » Thu Jul 12, 2012 1:23 pm

Right. That's a cheap plastic lining, not silver.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Marlow » Thu Jul 12, 2012 1:27 pm

Pego wrote:Sorry Marlow, no silver lining, just a depressing revelation. And yes, you are overly optimistic here, naive even :( .

Naive would be not knowing. I know, but choose to believe people can actually learn from others' mistakes. I'm often disappointed, but I'd rather live in a world of bright possibilities, not dark cynicism (not that you do, but many do).
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Pego » Thu Jul 12, 2012 1:40 pm

Marlow wrote:
Pego wrote:Sorry Marlow, no silver lining, just a depressing revelation. And yes, you are overly optimistic here, naive even :( .

Naive would be not knowing. I know, but choose to believe people can actually learn from others' mistakes. I'm often disappointed, but I'd rather live in a world of bright possibilities, not dark cynicism (not that you do, but many do).


I am not saying some people would not do the right thing under the circumstances, I know many that would. I am saying that they would do it on principle, not because somebody else got slammed for it.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby guru » Thu Jul 12, 2012 2:21 pm

Nike removes Paterno's name from child center on it's Beaverton campus.

http://www.oregonlive.com/playbooks-pro ... child.html
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Marlow » Thu Jul 12, 2012 3:01 pm

Pego wrote: they would do it on principle, not because somebody else got slammed for it.

Good point. I'm just hoping that some people only need 'reminders'.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby lonewolf » Thu Jul 12, 2012 3:34 pm

I don't know how far to go in punishing the "sins of the fathers" but Penn State deserves a powerful comeuppance.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby bad hammy » Thu Jul 12, 2012 3:38 pm

guru wrote:Nike removes Paterno's name from child center on it's Beaverton campus.

Good idea . . .
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Conor Dary » Thu Jul 12, 2012 4:02 pm

    A debate over the future of Penn State’s football program and whether the university should now remove a statue of the longtime football coach Joe Paterno on campus erupted online Wednesday after the release of a scathing new report that concluded the late Mr. Paterno and top university officials concealed child abuse allegations against Jerry Sandusky for more than 14 years.

    "That Paterno statue needs to come down Baghdad style today! #PSU"

http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/0 ... enn-state/
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Conor Dary » Fri Jul 13, 2012 6:26 am

In all of the years of reading the NYTimes I have never seen this scathing of a headline on the front page.

Abuse Scandal Inquiry Damns Paterno and Penn State
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby gh » Fri Jul 13, 2012 6:50 am

Head on the Scott Ostler column in SF Chron this morning included the words "Cowardly Lions"

His lead:

<<It's a long report, it seems so meticulous, thorough and without bias, and yet there seems to be something missing.

A hero. How can there be an epic story without a hero, without at least one good guy? In the cast of hundreds in Louis Freeh's report on the child-sex-abuse scandal at Penn State, how is it possible that everyone is a villain?....>>

http://www.sfgate.com/default/article/R ... 703650.php
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Marlow » Fri Jul 13, 2012 7:04 am

Conor Dary wrote:"That Paterno statue needs to come down Baghdad style today! #PSU"[/list]

Quietly removed would be fine. There will be many JoePa supporters out there still, but his reputation and all he achieved are rightfully ruined forever.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby BruceFlorman » Fri Jul 13, 2012 7:32 am

gh wrote:Head on the Scott Ostler column in SF Chron this morning included the words "Cowardly Lions"

His lead:

<<It's a long report, it seems so meticulous, thorough and without bias, and yet there seems to be something missing.

A hero. How can there be an epic story without a hero, without at least one good guy? In the cast of hundreds in Louis Freeh's report on the child-sex-abuse scandal at Penn State, how is it possible that everyone is a villain?....>>

http://www.sfgate.com/default/article/R ... 703650.php

Two alternative explanations spring readily to mind:

#1 The people at Penn State are uncommonly despicable.

#2 Human beings are almost all pretty despicable, but we just like to believe we aren't, because we're rarely put to the test in reality.

Call me cynical, but I don't put much stock in all the loud pronouncements about how "I would have done the right thing!"
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Conor Dary » Fri Jul 13, 2012 7:42 am

BruceFlorman wrote:

#2 Human beings are almost all pretty despicable, but we just like to believe we aren't, because we're rarely put to the test in reality.

Call me cynical, but I don't put much stock in all the loud pronouncements about how "I would have done the right thing!"


Lovely. :roll:
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby jazzcyclist » Fri Jul 13, 2012 8:49 am

BruceFlorman wrote:#2 Human beings are almost all pretty despicable, but we just like to believe we aren't, because we're rarely put to the test in reality.

Call me cynical, but I don't put much stock in all the loud pronouncements about how "I would have done the right thing!"

Unfortunately, I think you're right. We all like to think of ourselves as being strong in the moral courage department, but very, very few of us have the moral courage that we think we have. We might pronounce what we would have done if we had walked in another person's shoes, but the only way to know for sure what you would do is to actually walk in those shoes. There have been studies that have proven this. It's why mass scale atrocities have taken place throughout human history and will continue to take place as long as man exists.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Conor Dary » Fri Jul 13, 2012 9:10 am

Conor Dary wrote:
BruceFlorman wrote:

#2 Human beings are almost all pretty despicable, but we just like to believe we aren't, because we're rarely put to the test in reality.


Actually I feel quite sorry for you with an attitude like that. I have lived in different of parts the world and in this country, use to hitchhike constantly in the 1970's, and have pretty much the opposite feeling. Sure there are shitheads, but almost all people are despicable? Sounds like a rather hellish world.

The real problem with Penn State is having someone there so loooong, in a powerful position that he became godlike. If Paterno had retired at 65, there would have been another coach, back 1998, who would not have had the connection to Sandusky like Paterno did, and I believe, would have done something about it. But there was no check or balances in this situation. Mandatory retirement ages might be something for the NCAA to think about.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby jazzcyclist » Fri Jul 13, 2012 11:13 am

Conor Dary wrote:If Paterno had retired at 65, there would have been another coach, back 1998, who would not have had the connection to Sandusky like Paterno did, and I believe, would have done something about it. But there was no check or balances in this situation. Mandatory retirement ages might be something for the NCAA to think about.

Personal loyalty is generally considered to be a virtue, but I've come to the conclusion that it is one of man's greatest and most overlooked character flaws. Just think how much less corruption there would be in government if personal loyalty didn't inhibit so many would-be whistle blowers. Joe Boeheim discussed how personal loyalty blinded him with regards to Bernie Fine in this post game press conference last November.

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketb ... e-accusers
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Marlow » Fri Jul 13, 2012 11:27 am

Conor Dary wrote:The real problem with Penn State is having someone there so loooong, in a powerful position that he became godlike.

I think it's something even more nefarious - Paterno, the Prez and the AD knew that the school and the PSU program were 'bigger' than they themselves, and didn't want to be the ones to bring them both down into the garbage heap. They were not just covering their own butts, they were trying to 'protect' Happy Valley and the Nittany Lions. Ironically, now both are synonymous with corruption.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby jeremyp » Fri Jul 13, 2012 11:36 am

Marlow wrote:
Conor Dary wrote:The real problem with Penn State is having someone there so loooong, in a powerful position that he became godlike.

I think it's something even more nefarious - Paterno, the Prez and the AD knew that the school and the PSU program were 'bigger' than they themselves, and didn't want to be the ones to bring them both down into the garbage heap. They were not just covering their own butts, they were trying to 'protect' Happy Valley and the Nittany Lions. Ironically, now both are synonymous with corruption.


And had they done the right thing when they knew about it the program and Joe P would have ended up looking like moral siants. As always the mistake is in thinking "IT" can be covered up, rather than taking the high road ASAP.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby jazzcyclist » Fri Jul 13, 2012 12:15 pm

Marlow wrote:
Conor Dary wrote:The real problem with Penn State is having someone there so loooong, in a powerful position that he became godlike.

I think it's something even more nefarious - Paterno, the Prez and the AD knew that the school and the PSU program were 'bigger' than they themselves, and didn't want to be the ones to bring them both down into the garbage heap. They were not just covering their own butts, they were trying to 'protect' Happy Valley and the Nittany Lions. Ironically, now both are synonymous with corruption.

There would have been no butts to cover if Paterno had acted promptly when he first became aware of Sandusky's criminality. All he had to do is call Sandusky into his office and tell him that as a friend, he's giving him 24 hours to turn himself into the police, otherwise he'll notify the authorities himself. Giving him a day to get his affairs in order should have been the most their friendship should have gotten him. The bottom line is that it's seldom easy to do the right thing, especially when a 50-year relationship us involved. The path of righteousness can be so clear and right in front of us, but yet seem so far away.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Marlow » Fri Jul 13, 2012 12:40 pm

jazzcyclist wrote:All he had to do is call Sandusky into his office and tell him that as a friend, he's giving him 24 hours to turn himself into the police, otherwise he'll notify the authorities himself.

I think you just made my point. That would have everyone's butt, but not the school's. There would have been a major flare-up then and there. They 'thought' they were protecting the institution.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Conor Dary » Fri Jul 13, 2012 12:44 pm

jazzcyclist wrote: The bottom line is that it's seldom easy to do the right thing, especially when a 50-year relationship us involved. The path of righteousness can be so clear and right in front of us, but yet seem so far away.


That is why turnover on a regular basis is a good thing. Whether a financial institution or a college football program.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Dutra5 » Fri Jul 13, 2012 1:33 pm

Conor Dary wrote:
Conor Dary wrote:
BruceFlorman wrote:

#2 Human beings are almost all pretty despicable, but we just like to believe we aren't, because we're rarely put to the test in reality.


Actually I feel quite sorry for you with an attitude like that. I have lived in different of parts the world and in this country, use to hitchhike constantly in the 1970's, and have pretty much the opposite feeling. Sure there are shitheads, but almost all people are despicable? Sounds like a rather hellish world.

The real problem with Penn State is having someone there so loooong, in a powerful position that he became godlike. If Paterno had retired at 65, there would have been another coach, back 1998, who would not have had the connection to Sandusky like Paterno did, and I believe, would have done something about it. But there was no check or balances in this situation. Mandatory retirement ages might be something for the NCAA to think about.


The coach in 1998 might have been Sandusky. It's possible that could have been an even worse scenario.

I do think it was a bunch of scenarios...poor performance, age, perceived or real threats to his job, that caused Paterno to avoid dealing with the issue properly. His mistake, other than reporting Sandusky immediately, was not getting rid of him completely from anything to do with Penn State.

What's really a shame is seeing the family continue to justify...in my opinion they should be saying as little as possible at this point, Matt Millen try and point the finger elsewhere and guys such as Mark Robinson complain about "outside reviews".
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Conor Dary » Fri Jul 13, 2012 4:15 pm

The Big Ten Network added to the disgrace yesterday, by pretty much ignoring the whole story.

    Such swift, universal rebukes of Paterno only made the Big Ten Network look sillier for not interrupting programming as CNN, MSNBC and ESPN did to televise Freeh's news conference. What a sad irony to have a scandal defined by looking the other way punctuated by BTN not letting us watch its conclusion.

    I get the groupthink in State College, Pa., where the Penn State student center switched to a local cable-access channel. I don't accept BTN's explanation that it "is not and was never intended to be a news organization.'' It was a news organization last November when Ohio State introduced Urban Meyer and his $24 million contract but not for a news conference confirming football became too big at Penn State?

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/co ... 712.column
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby gh » Fri Jul 13, 2012 4:52 pm

Conor Dary wrote:[.....
"That Paterno statue needs to come down Baghdad style today! #PSU"..../


Dave Ross of CBS Radio this afternoon, rejecting calls to remove the statue: "Leave it there as a memorial, pointing out that it did as much as Paterno did to stop the abuse."
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby jazzcyclist » Fri Jul 13, 2012 6:17 pm

Marlow wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote:All he had to do is call Sandusky into his office and tell him that as a friend, he's giving him 24 hours to turn himself into the police, otherwise he'll notify the authorities himself.

I think you just made my point. That would have everyone's butt, but not the school's. There would have been a major flare-up then and there. They 'thought' they were protecting the institution.

I respectfully disagree. Was Paterno motivated by personal loayalty or self-preservation, that is the question. Jim Boeheim and everyone else at Syracuse survived the Bernie Fine scandal. The difference is that after he was presented with irrefutable evidence (the audio tapes) that Fine was a sexual deviant, he dropped him like a hot potato. Had Paterno acted in a similar manner in 1998, he and everyone else at Penn State would have also survived. And remember, in 1998 Paterno was still at the height of his powers on the football field. He had won the 1995 Rose Bowl to cap off a perfect season and was on the precipice of another run at a national championship in 1999.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Cooter Brown » Fri Jul 13, 2012 6:27 pm

gh wrote:
Conor Dary wrote:[.....
"That Paterno statue needs to come down Baghdad style today! #PSU"..../


Dave Ross of CBS Radio this afternoon, rejecting calls to remove the statue: "Leave it there as a memorial, pointing out that it did as much as Paterno did to stop the abuse."


Best I heard was that they should turn it around so it can look the other way for 13 years.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby IanS_Liv » Fri Jul 13, 2012 6:50 pm

Just putting my 5 cents in. This kind of looking the other way is not unusual within institutions. I think that "look at the example of the Catholic Church" is about as far as I can go on this forum!

In fact parents have been known to look the other way when the other parent is the perpetrator. Either for fear of the guilty party or not wanting to acknowledge abuse and the tearing apart of their family or exposure to shame. Siblings, even ones who have also been victimised, can often turn viciously against a sibling that raises the issue. So, the turning of two blind eyes is not unexpected.

One thing I'm glad of is that (as yet anyway) is that the investigation into Sandusky did not turn up a ring and no one else was implicated in anything else other than covering up the abuse.

I wouldn't call for a complete removal of the football programme, but I would like to see a 5 year ban of it as a penalty for Penn State. I doubt there's a mechanism for that, unfortunately.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby lonewolf » Fri Jul 13, 2012 7:08 pm

Marlow wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote:All he had to do is call Sandusky into his office and tell him that as a friend, he's giving him 24 hours to turn himself into the police, otherwise he'll notify the authorities himself.

I think you just made my point. That would have everyone's butt, but not the school's. There would have been a major flare-up then and there. They 'thought' they were protecting the institution.

Why give him 24 hours?
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