Penn State/State Pen [split]


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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby lonewolf » Mon Jun 25, 2012 9:23 am

When you make "bad choices" repeatedly over a period of years with multiple victims, it is not a "mistake". It is a perverted, unforgivable crime. Sandusky knew it was wrong and tried to cover it up. He is rightly permanently removed from society.
Now to prosecute the Penn State authorities complicit in the cover up.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Conor Dary » Mon Jun 25, 2012 9:39 am

lonewolf wrote:When you make "bad choices" repeatedly over a period of years with multiple victims, it is not a "mistake". It is a perverted, unforgivable crime. Sandusky knew it was wrong and tried to cover it up. He is rightly permanently removed from society.
Now to prosecute the Penn State authorities complicit in the cover up.


I agree.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby SQUACKEE » Mon Jun 25, 2012 10:50 am

odelltrclan wrote:
SQUACKEE wrote:At the risk of breaking the no things not track until the trials are over, (I am in good company with gh doing it) I truly don't know what this means- " it's not for us to pass judgment"


I think what he might be getting at is more in line with "let him who is without sin cast the first stone".

I feel sorry for Sandusky (Not as sorry as I feel for the victims so don't get in a tizzy). You look on someone who has a lot going for them, as many of us do and see them make bad choices that ultimately ruin their lives. Each of us is capable of doing something like that. Maybe it is not some sex addiction that leads to the rape of boys or whatever, maybe it is alcohol, or drugs or something else. But each of us could make one bad choice that leads to worse and the next thing you know, your life is ruined as well as the lives of many others. It is a harrowingly sad situation.


Sandusky would agree with you and the young boys he repeatedly sodomized would disagree with you. You sound like someone who has never been victimized by a sadist, I have.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby odelltrclan » Mon Jun 25, 2012 11:26 am

As expected, people totally missing the point.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Pego » Tue Jun 26, 2012 8:29 am

lonewolf wrote:When you make "bad choices" repeatedly over a period of years with multiple victims, it is not a "mistake". It is a perverted, unforgivable crime. Sandusky knew it was wrong and tried to cover it up. He is rightly permanently removed from society.
Now to prosecute the Penn State authorities complicit in the cover up.


Yes.

odelltrclan wrote:Each of us is capable of doing something like that. Maybe it is not some sex addiction that leads to the rape of boys or whatever, maybe it is alcohol, or drugs or something else.


No. Raping children is not remotely comparable to drinking or using drugs. Sorry.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby odelltrclan » Tue Jun 26, 2012 8:59 am

No, I am not wrong, and if people would read all the comments I have stated clearly that Sandusky is wrong and deserves to go to prison for life. I am not defending him in the slightest, only stating what happened to him, through his own choices, is a tragedy in and of itself.

I don't believe for a second people are born "bad". Sandusky, as all the rest of us, at one point in his life was a decent person. Do you really think that as a grade schooler or high schooler he was a rapist? Even had thoughts of every doing something of the like. Seriously doubt it. Somewhere along the line through whatever reason made a bad choice that led to more bad choices that eventually decayed his life into something unconscionable. He became a monster. That is a tragedy. Look at all the people who were ruined and hurt by those bad choices.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Pego » Tue Jun 26, 2012 12:31 pm

odelltrclan wrote:Somewhere along the line through whatever reason made a bad choice that led to more bad choices that eventually decayed his life into something unconscionable.


I respectfully disagree Unless you are a psychopath, you know what is right and what is wrong. I suppose, all males here have been rejected by a girl we liked a lot more than once. We did not go on to rape her. Sorry, what you call bad choices I call unconscionable, outrageous behavior, totally devoid of any shred of human decency. It "could not happen to anybody." I agreed with you about people around Sandusky whom he dragged into abyss, I disagree about Sandusky himself. Actually, in response to a prior gh's statement, yes, some crimes are of such depraved nature, we all can judge. Yes, I am trowing a stone.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Conor Dary » Tue Jun 26, 2012 1:26 pm

I am with pego here. Setting up a foundation, adopting kids, just so he can abuse them. Evil stuff.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby gh » Tue Jun 26, 2012 8:03 pm

one fundamental problem i have with all aberrant behavior is the nagging thought that indeed some people are just "wired differently"; if so, how does one fairly treat these people who are victims of their own genetics? Sorry, I have trouble believing in "choice" in these things, even with child molestation. At the bottom end, it's your body (not your mind) telling you what to do, if that makes sense.

And no, I'm not suggesting any kind of "amnesty" on these grounds. As an inquisitive science-based person, I'm just fascinated by the fact that we (make that THEY!) can be screwed from birth.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby SQUACKEE » Wed Jun 27, 2012 1:56 am

I guess my question is...Are there any people like Sandusky, who have the same sick drive that dont act on it?

Also, what was stopping Sandusky from admitting quilt and begging for forgiveness and crying his eyes out for the horrible nightmare he created?

If you have an controllable need to rape children the only solution is suicide.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Athleticsimaging » Wed Jun 27, 2012 4:49 am

In a previous life, I spent a lot of time visiting what some might call "the underclass" in their natural environment and it was astounding the repetitive types of behaviour linked to similar childhoods experiences. It seemed like a blueprint - do this to a child, see this as an adult.

Now this information came to me as purely incidental to my job, so I cannot begin to imagine the horror stories that somebody like a social worker would hear when trusted to be told the REALLY bad stuff.

Now, with a generally comfortable middle class participation on this board, few could imagine the impact of endless negative physical, psychological, physiological and sexual mistreatment for substantial portions of a life from the womb.

This is not to discount gh's comment on potential genetic programming but it is well known that child sexual abuse is very commonly undertaken by those who suffered similar abuse. As to Squackee's question, about those that don't act on these desires, there are some but most others that act but want to stop cannot seek help because to admit these desires and ask for help to stop generally brings law enforcement into the equation immediately. This means that without assistance, they continue to offend for months, years or decades before being caught this perpetuating the cycle of offending.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby SQUACKEE » Wed Jun 27, 2012 5:19 am

Athleticsimaging wrote: As to Squackee's question, about those that don't act on these desires, there are some but most others that act but want to stop cannot seek help because to admit these desires and ask for help to stop generally brings law enforcement into the equation immediately. This means that without assistance, they continue to offend for months, years or decades before being caught this perpetuating the cycle of offending.


Great point, hadn't thought of that.

Also, the parents of Jeffery Dahlmer say he had a perfectly normal childhood.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Pego » Wed Jun 27, 2012 5:47 am

Athleticsimaging wrote:This is not to discount gh's comment on potential genetic programming but it is well known that child sexual abuse is very commonly undertaken by those who suffered similar abuse.


No argument, just a point that children that share environment with abusive adults commonly also share the genes.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Conor Dary » Wed Jun 27, 2012 6:57 am

gh wrote:one fundamental problem i have with all aberrant behavior is the nagging thought that indeed some people are just "wired differently"; if so, how does one fairly treat these people who are victims of their own genetics? Sorry, I have trouble believing in "choice" in these things, even with child molestation. At the bottom end, it's your body (not your mind) telling you what to do, if that makes sense.

And no, I'm not suggesting any kind of "amnesty" on these grounds. As an inquisitive science-based person, I'm just fascinated by the fact that we (make that THEY!) can be screwed from birth.


This is a good point, and one I have thought about. Combine that with a complete narcissistic personality, though and that is probably where the trouble lies.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby odelltrclan » Wed Jun 27, 2012 7:17 am

gh wrote:one fundamental problem i have with all aberrant behavior is the nagging thought that indeed some people are just "wired differently"; if so, how does one fairly treat these people who are victims of their own genetics? Sorry, I have trouble believing in "choice" in these things, even with child molestation. At the bottom end, it's your body (not your mind) telling you what to do, if that makes sense.

And no, I'm not suggesting any kind of "amnesty" on these grounds. As an inquisitive science-based person, I'm just fascinated by the fact that we (make that THEY!) can be screwed from birth.


I am not saying you are wrong, but I personally don't by it that people are "wired from birth" to do things like that. I think nurture is far more prevalent. I know people who went down a similar path that started with viewing soft pornography, which led to harder pornography, which led to to more and more to try and satisfy an ever increasing and changing sexual addiction. They started a fire that burned out of control to where it consumed them. I am willing to bet Sandusky went down a similar path and that path led him to where he was. It took him to where he found easy and vulnerable prey for the sick addiction he developed.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Conor Dary » Wed Jun 27, 2012 7:39 am

The problem with that theory is a hell of lot of people watch porn sometime in their lives and never, or even think of it, become a child molester. While I suspect most, if not all, child molesters watch porn.

This is a classical fraudulent connection, similar to most heroin users first smoked dope, therefore anyone who tries pot is going to od on heroin, which from what I know, ain't true.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby lonewolf » Wed Jun 27, 2012 8:27 am

The bottom line is, whatever the reason for their behavior, some people need to be taken out of circulation. No amnesty, no forgiveness, no explanation, no excuses.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby SQUACKEE » Wed Jun 27, 2012 8:43 am

Conor Dary wrote:The problem with that theory is a hell of lot of people watch porn sometime in their lives and never, or even think of it, become a child molester. While I suspect most, if not all, child molesters watch porn.

This is a classical fraudulent connection, similar to most heroin users first smoked dope, therefore anyone who tries pot is going to od on heroin, which from what I know, ain't true.


The old gateway bullshit. I stopped drinking water because all Crackheads have drank water,therefore water is a gateway to crack.

I personally know a 100 people who have smoked pot and none of them have even tried smack.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby kuha » Wed Jun 27, 2012 9:47 am

gh's point above is entirely relevant here, and almost certainly true. This sort of dysfunction is very far from simply a matter of slippy-slope "bad choices." It must result from some combination of nature & nurture; opportunity & inherent inclination. Brain chemistry (for lack of a better term) has got to be extremely important to all this. I do not believe that psychopaths and sociopaths get that way because of some "bad choices."
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Cooter Brown » Wed Jun 27, 2012 11:54 am

kuha wrote: I do not believe that psychopaths and sociopaths get that way because of some "bad choices."


There was a kid in my grade named Alonzo Edwards. I remember a distinct moment in 3rd grade where I thought that kid was the scariest person I'd ever met. In 8th grade, he raped and murdered another student's mom. His twin sister was perfectly normal. Nothing to suggest there was something in his environment or previous bad choices that turned him down the wrong path. That dude was born evil.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby odelltrclan » Wed Jun 27, 2012 12:42 pm

Cooter Brown wrote:
kuha wrote: I do not believe that psychopaths and sociopaths get that way because of some "bad choices."


There was a kid in my grade named Alonzo Edwards. I remember a distinct moment in 3rd grade where I thought that kid was the scariest person I'd ever met. In 8th grade, he raped and murdered another student's mom. His twin sister was perfectly normal. Nothing to suggest there was something in his environment or previous bad choices that turned him down the wrong path. That dude was born evil.


LOL,

Yeah, and I remember a kid from elementary school, whose name I won't mention, who was close to the same. The kind you'd expect to be a the criminal psycho, etc. Only thing is, he turned out to be a model citizen, successful businessman, spiritual advisor, ran for public office, just all around model citizen. He did make good choices when he was on a very bad path. Sorry, I just don't buy the "born evil" stigma. People become who they want to be, they aren't simply destined to become who they "are".
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby kuha » Wed Jun 27, 2012 12:51 pm

odelltrclan wrote:People become who they want to be, they aren't simply destined to become who they "are".


And that's the issue in a nutshell: you've spelled out the terms very nicely. You hold an extreme view of human free will, self-understanding, and rational self-control. I think it's safe to say that few others genuinely hold such an extreme view; I certainly do not.

The corollary to the story you (rightly, perhaps) ridicule above is precisely the "gateway" fallacy that others have demolished. Most seemingly "bad" 10 year olds don't turn out to be murderers at 20; just as very few watchers of porn become rapists. In both cases, then, something ELSE has to be at work that's at least partially independent of exterior stimuli.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby SQUACKEE » Wed Jun 27, 2012 12:56 pm

Read this until it sinks in-

There was a kid in my grade named Alonzo Edwards. I remember a distinct moment in 3rd grade where I thought that kid was the scariest person I'd ever met. In 8th grade, he raped and murdered another student's mom. His twin sister was perfectly normal. Nothing to suggest there was something in his environment or previous bad choices that turned him down the wrong path. That dude was born evil.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby odelltrclan » Wed Jun 27, 2012 1:17 pm

SQUACKEE wrote:Read this until it sinks in-

There was a kid in my grade named Alonzo Edwards. I remember a distinct moment in 3rd grade where I thought that kid was the scariest person I'd ever met. In 8th grade, he raped and murdered another student's mom. His twin sister was perfectly normal. Nothing to suggest there was something in his environment or previous bad choices that turned him down the wrong path. That dude was born evil.


As if highlighting and bolding make your opinion "right". Don't go have yourself a heart attack! :lol: We need some more predictions for the OT and Olympics first.

Don't act as though your experience here was some form of experiment with "test subjects" and Alonzo and his sister were supposed to follow exactly the same path. There is no doubt that some people could be born with a propensity for a certain direction. I believe physical deficiencies (i.e. genetic abnormalities) potentially cause problems, just FAR less than most. To suggest that nurture or "environment" has no impact is in my opinion ludicrous. To suggest that people have no ability to exercise free will to follow a direction their heart, or soul, if you will, wants to take them, or that is severely restricted is beyond ludicrous.
Last edited by odelltrclan on Wed Jun 27, 2012 1:27 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Conor Dary » Wed Jun 27, 2012 1:23 pm

It is only a novel, but this discussion has reminded me of Jim Thompson's The Killer Inside Me. A scary book of a respectable looking fellow, he is a deputy sheriff, Lou Ford, who is in reality a murderous psychopath, who can't control himself. And the novel is from his viewpoint.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby kuha » Wed Jun 27, 2012 1:39 pm

odelltrclan wrote:To suggest that nurture or "environment" has no impact is in my opinion ludicrous. To suggest that people have no ability to exercise free will to follow a direction their heart, or soul, if you will, wants to take them, or that is severely restricted is beyond ludicrous.


Yes, please continue jousting with your straw men. NO ONE is suggesting that environment has "no" impact. And no one is suggesting that people have "no ability" to blah blah blah. You're not arguing in any serious way by shooting down these useless caricatures of the actual arguments at hand.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby kuha » Wed Jun 27, 2012 1:41 pm

Conor Dary wrote:It is only a novel, but this discussion has reminded me of Jim Thompson's The Killer Inside Me. A scary book of a respectable looking fellow, he is a deputy sheriff, Lou Ford, who is in reality a murderous psychopath, who can't control himself. And the novel is from his viewpoint.


Not a "good" literary work, but a totally brilliant and unforgettable one. I read all the Thompson books about 20 years ago and the psychic wounds are still raw. Astonishing stuff.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Pego » Wed Jun 27, 2012 1:42 pm

odelltrclan wrote:To suggest that nurture or "environment" has no impact is in my opinion ludicrous.


Nobody is suggesting that the nurture (environment) has no impact. What some of us are saying is that the environment does not create psychopaths (murderers, rapists...). Studies on identical twins raised in radically different milieu showed them to be quite similar in their personalities (obviously level of education, sophistication and such would be different). I am not aware of an instance where one would become a saint and the other one a murderer.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby odelltrclan » Wed Jun 27, 2012 1:45 pm

kuha wrote:
odelltrclan wrote:To suggest that nurture or "environment" has no impact is in my opinion ludicrous. To suggest that people have no ability to exercise free will to follow a direction their heart, or soul, if you will, wants to take them, or that is severely restricted is beyond ludicrous.


Yes, please continue jousting with your straw men. NO ONE is suggesting that environment has "no" impact. And no one is suggesting that people have "no ability" to blah blah blah. You're not arguing in any serious way by shooting down these useless caricatures of the actual arguments at hand.


Actually Kuha, I would suggest quite the contrary. When you illustrate the extremes I think it helps people understand the conceptual framework of the argument better, and thus be able to see where they fit in.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby j-a-m » Wed Jun 27, 2012 1:50 pm

kuha wrote:NO ONE is suggesting that environment has "no" impact.

Unfortunately some posters have suggested just that, saying nonsense like "screwed from birth" or "born evil".
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby kuha » Wed Jun 27, 2012 2:03 pm

j-a-m wrote:
kuha wrote:NO ONE is suggesting that environment has "no" impact.

Unfortunately some posters have suggested just that, saying nonsense like "screwed from birth" or "born evil".


But that may well be true. It's simply that none of this can be predicted at the age of 2 or 5 or 10. But when one is faced with a real-world example of a truly bad character, the question remains: what combination of forces created this? And it seems clear that in some cases, the root issue, the causal issue, can probably be traced all the way back and is relatively independent of environment.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby kuha » Wed Jun 27, 2012 2:07 pm

odelltrclan wrote:
kuha wrote:
odelltrclan wrote:To suggest that nurture or "environment" has no impact is in my opinion ludicrous. To suggest that people have no ability to exercise free will to follow a direction their heart, or soul, if you will, wants to take them, or that is severely restricted is beyond ludicrous.


Yes, please continue jousting with your straw men. NO ONE is suggesting that environment has "no" impact. And no one is suggesting that people have "no ability" to blah blah blah. You're not arguing in any serious way by shooting down these useless caricatures of the actual arguments at hand.


Actually Kuha, I would suggest quite the contrary. When you illustrate the extremes I think it helps people understand the conceptual framework of the argument better, and thus be able to see where they fit in.


You are quite right in the idea that these artificial extremes serve to define the basic conceptual territory. But if the "real" answers are to be found in some nuanced space between the artificial extremes, then that's where serious work needs to be done.Thus, pretending that a nuanced position is, in fact, some generic extreme, is simply to dodge the issue.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby odelltrclan » Wed Jun 27, 2012 2:13 pm

kuha wrote:You are quite right in the idea that these artificial extremes serve to define the basic conceptual territory. But if the "real" answers are to be found in some nuanced space between the artificial extremes, then that's where serious work needs to be done.Thus, pretending that a nuanced position is, in fact, some generic extreme, is simply to dodge the issue.


I am certainly not dodging any issue. I think it is pretty clear where I stand on the matter, based upon the entire body of the discussion. It is fairly clear where others do as well.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby lonewolf » Wed Jun 27, 2012 2:14 pm

We have plowed this "nature vs. nurture" field numerous times as ignomous/controversial events occur. It would seem both shape a person's life but we don't know. The perp may not know. Bad things happen spontaneously or deliberately. Neither can be excused or justified by the criminals background.
In the end, it doesn't matter..heinous crimes merit maximum punishment regardless of the
"reason" behind the culprit's actions.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby kuha » Wed Jun 27, 2012 2:24 pm

odelltrclan wrote:
kuha wrote:You are quite right in the idea that these artificial extremes serve to define the basic conceptual territory. But if the "real" answers are to be found in some nuanced space between the artificial extremes, then that's where serious work needs to be done.Thus, pretending that a nuanced position is, in fact, some generic extreme, is simply to dodge the issue.


I am certainly not dodging any issue. I think it is pretty clear where I stand on the matter, based upon the entire body of the discussion. It is fairly clear where others do as well.


Fair enough; you've stated your position pretty clearly. What I was criticizing was an avoidance of the actual substance of the counter argument.

However, you've already stated: "There is no doubt that some people could be born with a propensity for a certain direction." So, we're already quite some distance from ANY absolute either/or positions: it's all about relative balances and propensities, etc.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Dutra5 » Wed Jun 27, 2012 8:32 pm

gh wrote:one fundamental problem i have with all aberrant behavior is the nagging thought that indeed some people are just "wired differently"; if so, how does one fairly treat these people who are victims of their own genetics? Sorry, I have trouble believing in "choice" in these things, even with child molestation. At the bottom end, it's your body (not your mind) telling you what to do, if that makes sense.

And no, I'm not suggesting any kind of "amnesty" on these grounds. As an inquisitive science-based person, I'm just fascinated by the fact that we (make that THEY!) can be screwed from birth.


I could write an extroadinarily long post on this very issue as my wife and I are the parents of a son who, from a fairly early age (I'm talking 3 or 4 years old) it was apparent he struggled with some issues. He's been through medical and psychiatric workups without strict definition of what the issue might be. He has some elements of Aspergers and ADD (not ADHD) and even autism. Socially he struggles yet...in certain respects he can function. He has difficulty discerning what's acceptable and what isn't and seems to have little empathy for anyone including his parents and siblings. He's been in and out of trouble (currently in) since he was 12 years old. He's not a mass murderer however he's clearly been handed a bad lot from the start.

We have two other children who are both perfectly "normal". All raised in the same household and with birthdates within 3 years of each other.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby SQUACKEE » Thu Jun 28, 2012 2:39 am

Anyone who doesn't believe we come into this world with a lot of who we are, explain this

Mozart writing classical music at the age of 5 or the fact that Einstein was way more smarter then your friend Chuck. Or that Reese Hoffa and Bernard Lagat have vastly different P.R.'s in the mile and Shot Putt. Or the guy who can remember everyday of his life. "What day was June 15 1976? "A Sunday."

Therefore a tendency towards, lets say unacceptable behavior, could also be acquired in the womb?
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Athleticsimaging » Sun Jul 01, 2012 5:18 am

SQUACKEE wrote:Anyone who doesn't believe we come into this world with a lot of who we are, explain this

Mozart writing classical music at the age of 5.......
Mozart was subject to intensive,ongoing instruction in all aspects of music by his father, a talented musician. Most music scholars would say that Mozart did not produce anything truly enduring until more than a decade later. In no way was he purely a genetic freak.

This is not to say that some people are not completely gifted, or fucked up, from birth but apart from those at the extremes of the statistical distribution, most problems arise from the environment to which people are subjected.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby SQUACKEE » Mon Jul 02, 2012 2:49 am

Athleticsimaging wrote:
SQUACKEE wrote:Anyone who doesn't believe we come into this world with a lot of who we are, explain this

Mozart writing classical music at the age of 5.......
Mozart was subject to intensive,ongoing instruction in all aspects of music by his father, a talented musician. Most music scholars would say that Mozart did not produce anything truly enduring until more than a decade later. In no way was he purely a genetic freak.

This is not to say that some people are not completely gifted, or fucked up, from birth but apart from those at the extremes of the statistical distribution, most problems arise from the environment to which people are subjected.


I know his daddy was coaching him, but I still think the kid had talent.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby gh » Tue Jul 03, 2012 6:41 am

Scott Ostler in the SF Chronicle last weekend:

<<... The Penn State horror story has taken a twist for the sicker.

And Joe Paterno's legacy is now more clearly defined.

E-mails have been uncovered by NBC. Three scared sheep - Penn State's president, vice president and athletic director - were going to alert the real authorities to the possible misdeeds of Jerry Sandusky, until the athletic director spoke with Paterno and persuaded the other two Sheep not to be so rash....>>

http://www.sfgate.com/default/article/U ... 676698.php
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