Penn State/State Pen [split]


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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby gh » Tue Nov 15, 2011 12:23 pm

At this point, am I the only one who has had "McMartin Preschool" run through his head?
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby odelltrclan » Tue Nov 15, 2011 12:30 pm

gh wrote:At this point, am I the only one who has had "McMartin Preschool" run through his head?


In what way? The foreseen eventual outcome of this? We have one abuser (allegedly) and many who apparently are guilty of inaction. Is this the same as McMartin? Maybe too far before my time to remember much about it. Didn't it end with no convictions.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Dutra » Tue Nov 15, 2011 1:13 pm

26mi235 wrote:He married the girl/woman, although they are now divorced. I heard 17, but still underage. Did not see that she was a client. Of course, they were not married when the knocking started. It is easier to see how he could persuade the lawyer to take his case.


She was age of consent in her state if I read an accurate article.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Pego » Tue Nov 15, 2011 1:22 pm

odelltrclan wrote:
gh wrote:At this point, am I the only one who has had "McMartin Preschool" run through his head?


In what way? The foreseen eventual outcome of this? We have one abuser (allegedly) and many who apparently are guilty of inaction. Is this the same as McMartin? Maybe too far before my time to remember much about it. Didn't it end with no convictions.


As far as I recall McMartin was a witch hunt and innocent people were severely harmed. There is no snowflake's chance in hell that Sandusky is an innocent victim.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Conor Dary » Tue Nov 15, 2011 1:57 pm

Pego wrote:
odelltrclan wrote:
gh wrote:At this point, am I the only one who has had "McMartin Preschool" run through his head?


In what way? The foreseen eventual outcome of this? We have one abuser (allegedly) and many who apparently are guilty of inaction. Is this the same as McMartin? Maybe too far before my time to remember much about it. Didn't it end with no convictions.


As far as I recall McMartin was a witch hunt and innocent people were severely harmed. There is no snowflake's chance in hell that Sandusky is an innocent victim.


Agreed. A different case altogether.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby kuha » Tue Nov 15, 2011 2:06 pm

gh wrote:At this point, am I the only one who has had "McMartin Preschool" run through his head?


That almost certainly was THE classic modern example of (literal) witch-hunting. It seems probable that ALL of it was hallucinated, made up, or psychologically induced. A truly stunning and shameful misuse of psychology and justice.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby bad hammy » Tue Nov 15, 2011 2:09 pm

Halfmiler2 wrote:With over a billion members, the Catholic Church is a awfully big to be a cult.

All churches are cults, period. But that might be a topic for another thread.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby guru » Tue Nov 15, 2011 2:30 pm

jazzcyclist wrote: I'm surprised that McQueary's father didn't tell him to go save the kid, or if he felt that his son wasn't capable of functioning, at least rush to the campus and confront Sandusky himself.



Folks who were quick to roast McQueary for his "inaction" should probably dial back their assumptions just a tad...

http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/ ... e-mcqueary


On Monday night, ESPN's Tom Rinaldi reported that a source familiar with the Penn State investigation said McQueary actually stopped the alleged 2002 attack he told a grand jury he witnessed in the shower. McQueary said something similar in an email he sent to former teammates, according to a report by NBC. "I did the right thing … you guys know me," McQueary wrote.

Numerous attempts to reach McQueary for this story went unreturned. In addition, many of those close to him declined to comment. In a brief interview with ESPN.com last week, McQueary's father, John, hinted there was more to the story than what had been reported. It is not unusual for a grand jury to leave certain details of its investigation out of its report.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby BisonHurdler » Tue Nov 15, 2011 2:48 pm

guru wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote: I'm surprised that McQueary's father didn't tell him to go save the kid, or if he felt that his son wasn't capable of functioning, at least rush to the campus and confront Sandusky himself.



Folks who were quick to roast McQueary for his "inaction" should probably dial back their assumptions just a tad...

http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/ ... e-mcqueary


On Monday night, ESPN's Tom Rinaldi reported that a source familiar with the Penn State investigation said McQueary actually stopped the alleged 2002 attack he told a grand jury he witnessed in the shower. McQueary said something similar in an email he sent to former teammates, according to a report by NBC. "I did the right thing … you guys know me," McQueary wrote.

Numerous attempts to reach McQueary for this story went unreturned. In addition, many of those close to him declined to comment. In a brief interview with ESPN.com last week, McQueary's father, John, hinted there was more to the story than what had been reported. It is not unusual for a grand jury to leave certain details of its investigation out of its report.



Well I think as we've seen on this thread (and just about every place this whole matter has been discussed), it's much easier/more popular to shoot from the hip. People seem less interested in facts and more interested in shouting loudly to whoever will listen, regardless of what information has been (or has not been) corroborated.

Of course, this "revelation" is still not completely verified, but it would seem plausible.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby guru » Tue Nov 15, 2011 3:07 pm

BisonHurdler wrote:
Of course, this "revelation" is still not completely verified, but it would seem plausible.



McQueary to speak in interview with CBS Evening News tonight (6:30 PM ET)
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Dutra » Tue Nov 15, 2011 3:11 pm

BisonHurdler wrote:Well I think as we've seen on this thread (and just about every place this whole matter has been discussed), it's much easier/more popular to shoot from the hip. People seem less interested in facts and more interested in shouting loudly to whoever will listen, regardless of what information has been (or has not been) corroborated.

Of course, this "revelation" is still not completely verified, but it would seem plausible.


In defense of the hipshooters.....the grand jury report does not back this story which is the source of a lot of the information coming out. That doesn't make it untrue of course.

In addition, this still doesn't explain not going to the police immediately......which is my biggest problem with his entire involvement.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby 26mi235 » Tue Nov 15, 2011 3:15 pm

guru wrote:
BisonHurdler wrote:
Of course, this "revelation" is still not completely verified, but it would seem plausible.



McQueary to speak in interview with CBS Evening News tonight (6:30 PM ET)


I felt like I kept on being chastised for indicating that McQueary's case was not in the same category as the others and that he did not seem to have left that scene to continue playing itself out.

On the otherhand, he still was deficient in pushing it further than just telling is BOSS and the head of Campus Police (the VP) when he did not see things happening..
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby BisonHurdler » Tue Nov 15, 2011 3:16 pm

Dutra wrote:
BisonHurdler wrote:Well I think as we've seen on this thread (and just about every place this whole matter has been discussed), it's much easier/more popular to shoot from the hip. People seem less interested in facts and more interested in shouting loudly to whoever will listen, regardless of what information has been (or has not been) corroborated.

Of course, this "revelation" is still not completely verified, but it would seem plausible.


In defense of the hipshooters.....the grand jury report does not back this story which is the source of a lot of the information coming out. That doesn't make it untrue of course.

In addition, this still doesn't explain not going to the police immediately......which is my biggest problem with his entire involvement.



I agree, and I'm not excusing his actions entirely. Just suggesting (reiterating) that there still seems like a lot of information yet to be uncovered.

Incidentally, in this story, it's at least mentioned that McQueary did go to the police after stopping things, although again it's vague to the timeline and the extent of "discussion" with the cops:

http://www.mcall.com/news/breaking/mc-p ... 7969.story
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby guru » Tue Nov 15, 2011 3:20 pm

Dutra wrote:
In addition, this still doesn't explain not going to the police immediately......which is my biggest problem with his entire involvement.



http://www.mcall.com/news/breaking/mc-p ... 7969.story

In the email obtained by The Morning Call, McQueary wrote that he "did have discussions with police and with the official at the university in charge of police" following the alleged incident between Sandusky, a former Penn State assistant coach, and a boy.



Again, he'll be on the CBS Evening News tonight


EDIT - I see bisonhurdler posted the same link while I was posting.

Great minds and all that :wink:
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby donley2 » Tue Nov 15, 2011 5:53 pm

bad hammy wrote:
Halfmiler2 wrote:With over a billion members, the Catholic Church is a awfully big to be a cult.

All churches are cults, period. But that might be a topic for another thread.


I was under the impression this sort of name calling and bashing of major organized religions was not allowed on this forum. But apparently GH does not give a rats.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Dutra » Tue Nov 15, 2011 8:17 pm

guru wrote:
In the email obtained by The Morning Call, McQueary wrote that he "did have discussions with police and with the official at the university in charge of police" following the alleged incident between Sandusky, a former Penn State assistant coach, and a boy.



Again, he'll be on the CBS Evening News tonight




I didn't see the interview. Was the timing of the chats with the police and the two up from Joe addressed? The story on the chats with the AD and two up are pretty well known. Was that when he talked to the police or was it when he should have called them in the first place....like....maybe right after he witnessed the incident/broke it up or whatever?
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby 26mi235 » Tue Nov 15, 2011 9:08 pm

donley2 wrote:
bad hammy wrote:
Halfmiler2 wrote:With over a billion members, the Catholic Church is a awfully big to be a cult.

All churches are cults, period. But that might be a topic for another thread.


I was under the impression this sort of name calling and bashing of major organized religions was not allowed on this forum. But apparently GH does not give a rats.


'cult' was applied to religion; I took that in the sense of people believing in something strongly and relying on things not apparent to very many people. Since it is difficult see how all of them can be right, in general, it seems that almost all but one are 'wrong', and thus 'cults'.



As to the comment about going to the police; I have posted several times that he reported going to the VP who was the head of campus police. It is not clear from the sketchy reports I have seen if that is what he meant or not. I think he meant that was at least part of what he did.

OK, here is a bit more
In the email obtained by The Morning Call, McQueary wrote that he "did have discussions with police and with the official at the university in charge of police" following the alleged incident involving Sandusky, a former Penn State assistant coach, and a boy. McQueary also wrote that he "is getting hammered for handling this the right way or what I thought at the time was right."


http://www.mcall.com/news/breaking/mc-penn-state-scandal-mcqueary-20111115,0,1687969.story
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Daisy » Tue Nov 15, 2011 9:14 pm

So is the problem here that he went to the wrong police? Are the campus police in the universities pocket?
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby guru » Tue Nov 15, 2011 9:14 pm

Funny - 3rd time on this page alone that Morning Call story has been linked :wink:
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Daisy » Tue Nov 15, 2011 9:19 pm

26mi235 wrote:The official at the university in charge of police"


Is this the guy?

Image
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby lonewolf » Tue Nov 15, 2011 10:06 pm

Isn't that Boss Hogg?
Once upon a time, a prominent South Texas rancher named Hogg named his twin daughters Ima and Ura :)
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby KevinM » Wed Nov 16, 2011 5:50 am

26mi235 wrote:The official at the university in charge of police"


The specific incident(s) aside, this seems to be a chunk of the reporting procedure that could be problematic - the person "in charge of police" and the person to whom the chief of police reports describes two very different roles, from my armchair.

I agree that the damning or continued deification of the most public figures involved should be curtailed until more information comes to light, as there seems to be the potential for things to get somewhat better for the PSU figures, or a LOT worse.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby odelltrclan » Wed Nov 16, 2011 6:41 am

KevinM wrote:
26mi235 wrote:The official at the university in charge of police"


The specific incident(s) aside, this seems to be a chunk of the reporting procedure that could be problematic - the person "in charge of police" and the person to whom the chief of police reports describes two very different roles, from my armchair.

I agree that the damning or continued deification of the most public figures involved should be curtailed until more information comes to light, as there seems to be the potential for things to get somewhat better for the PSU figures, or a LOT worse.


This thing could be spinning out of control? If McQueary did go to the police and everyone else up the chain knew it, then much of what they have been vilified for in the media et al is nullified. Wrongful terminations? If Paterno was told by McQueary that he went to the police and Paterno told the higher ups, as he has professed, what else was he supposed to do, legally and morally?
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby KevinM » Wed Nov 16, 2011 6:59 am

odelltrclan wrote:
KevinM wrote:
26mi235 wrote:The official at the university in charge of police"


The specific incident(s) aside, this seems to be a chunk of the reporting procedure that could be problematic - the person "in charge of police" and the person to whom the chief of police reports describes two very different roles, from my armchair.

I agree that the damning or continued deification of the most public figures involved should be curtailed until more information comes to light, as there seems to be the potential for things to get somewhat better for the PSU figures, or a LOT worse.


This thing could be spinning out of control? If McQueary did go to the police and everyone else up the chain knew it, then much of what they have been vilified for in the media et al is nullified. Wrongful terminations? If Paterno was told by McQueary that he went to the police and Paterno told the higher ups, as he has professed, what else was he supposed to do, legally and morally?


Don't you think there are some unanswered questions with potentially troubling answers regarding issues before the 2002 incident?
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby odelltrclan » Wed Nov 16, 2011 7:38 am

KevinM wrote:Don't you think there are some unanswered questions with potentially troubling answers regarding issues before the 2002 incident?


Yes, of course, unanswered questions everywhere. But the 1998 incident was investigated by authorities and nothing resulted from it, so what is it that the PSU heads were supposed to do then if the law enforcement cleared him at that time? Was there any known instances by anyone else of things happening between 1998 and 2002? If not, and the 2002 incident was in fact reported to police? Who is to blame now? The police or PSU heads?
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby kevinsdad » Wed Nov 16, 2011 8:24 am

odelltrclan wrote:
KevinM wrote:Don't you think there are some unanswered questions with potentially troubling answers regarding issues before the 2002 incident?


Yes, of course, unanswered questions everywhere. But the 1998 incident was investigated by authorities and nothing resulted from it, so what is it that the PSU heads were supposed to do then if the law enforcement cleared him at that time? Was there any known instances by anyone else of things happening between 1998 and 2002? If not, and the 2002 incident was in fact reported to police? Who is to blame now? The police or PSU heads?


Of course nothing resulted from the 1998 happenings. The fact that Sandusky resigned and left the coaching profession shortly afterward, while still in his prime and with head coaching offers on the table, is purely coincidental, absolutely unconnected to the investigation. What could be clearer, right? Oh, and I have this really nice bridge I'd like to sell you too. I'm sure you're interested.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby odelltrclan » Wed Nov 16, 2011 8:45 am

kevinsdad wrote:Of course nothing resulted from the 1998 happenings. The fact that Sandusky resigned and left the coaching profession shortly afterward, while still in his prime and with head coaching offers on the table, is purely coincidental, absolutely unconnected to the investigation. What could be clearer, right? Oh, and I have this really nice bridge I'd like to sell you too. I'm sure you're interested.


I am really at a loss for where you are going with this.

If the police were involved and investigating the 1998 issue, it should be end of story as far as moral and legal obligations, don't you think? From what I have read, the police were involved in 1998 and the DA, etc. The fact that he was asked to leave PSU coaching ranks would serve notice that PSU wanted to wash their hands of him and what else are they supposed to do if the police were notified and are involved?

If what McQueary is now saying is true, that he did in fact notify police for the 2002 incident, then who is covering up what? Paterno has been blamed for not going to police, but would he have reason to if he believed they had already been notified? Would his bosses? Did they know the police knew? Who is culpable (besides Sandusky of course)?

Is McQueary believable now, or just trying to save face?
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Conor Dary » Wed Nov 16, 2011 8:47 am

Curious that there is nothing in the grand jury testimony about McQ going to the police, the governor knew nothing about it and none of his friends did since he is trying to convince them that he in fact did.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby SQUACKEE » Wed Nov 16, 2011 9:19 am

Interesting that Joe-pa, how owned his house for over 40 years, sold it to his wife for a dollar a few months ago......to protect him from the lawsuits?
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby kevinsdad » Wed Nov 16, 2011 10:32 am

odelltrclan wrote:
kevinsdad wrote:Of course nothing resulted from the 1998 happenings. The fact that Sandusky resigned and left the coaching profession shortly afterward, while still in his prime and with head coaching offers on the table, is purely coincidental, absolutely unconnected to the investigation. What could be clearer, right? Oh, and I have this really nice bridge I'd like to sell you too. I'm sure you're interested.


I am really at a loss for where you are going with this.

If the police were involved and investigating the 1998 issue, it should be end of story as far as moral and legal obligations, don't you think? From what I have read, the police were involved in 1998 and the DA, etc. The fact that he was asked to leave PSU coaching ranks would serve notice that PSU wanted to wash their hands of him and what else are they supposed to do if the police were notified and are involved?



here's where I'm going. No I don't think the DA's decision not to charge was the end of the story, especially not if the decision was the result of collusion between the DA and Paterno and/or other PSU officials, in order to cover up Sandusky's pedophilia and thus protect the football program. That may not be the case, but it certainly looks like it to me. And in fact PSU did not wash its hands of Sandusky, and that is perhaps its main problem. He continued to have full access to the facilities, among many other things, up until 2002, and lesser access even after that. he had an office at Penn State for christsakes. How does that constitute "washing one's hands?" Regardless of legalities, if in 1998 Paterno knew or had very good reason to believe that Sandusky was a pedophile, he had a moral obligation not to sweep it under the rug, and at the very least had an obligation not to facilitate the pedophilia, which is what he pretty clearly did do when Sandusky retained access to facilities.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Conor Dary » Wed Nov 16, 2011 10:53 am

Conor Dary wrote:Curious that there is nothing in the grand jury testimony about McQ going to the police, the governor knew nothing about it and none of his friends did since he is trying to convince them that he in fact did.


If McQ in 2002 did go to the police like he claims, wouldn't he have told Paterno who would have informed the world that the cops were notified...my guess is McQ will say anything now.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Pego » Wed Nov 16, 2011 11:03 am

lonewolf wrote:Isn't that Boss Hogg?
Once upon a time, a prominent South Texas rancher named Hogg named his twin daughters Ima and Ura :)


It sure seems to me that Mr Hogg hated his little girls with passion, lol.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby odelltrclan » Wed Nov 16, 2011 11:23 am

kevinsdad wrote:
odelltrclan wrote:here's where I'm going. No I don't think the DA's decision not to charge was the end of the story, especially not if the decision was the result of collusion between the DA and Paterno and/or other PSU officials, in order to cover up Sandusky's pedophilia and thus protect the football program. That may not be the case, but it certainly looks like it to me. And in fact PSU did not wash its hands of Sandusky, and that is perhaps its main problem. He continued to have full access to the facilities, among many other things, up until 2002, and lesser access even after that. he had an office at Penn State for christsakes. How does that constitute "washing one's hands?" Regardless of legalities, if in 1998 Paterno knew or had very good reason to believe that Sandusky was a pedophile, he had a moral obligation not to sweep it under the rug, and at the very least had an obligation not to facilitate the pedophilia, which is what he pretty clearly did do when Sandusky retained access to facilities.


Yes, all of what you say is possible, or plausible even, but more akin to Fox Mulder and the X-files. From what you know now, using an emotional response, you insinuate that Joe Pa appears to be near the Almighty in power and influence over his subjects. That 1) he is actively flexing that power and influence over a DA to forego doing his job. In doing so, you appear to presume also that all that is known NOW about Sandusky was going on then and also known to PSU and Paterno.

More plausible to me is that PSU and Paterno were disturbed by what happened in 1998 and essentially told Sandusky that he was no longer welcome as a coach and would not advance further and essentially to go away. The legal authorities did their job (you would think that most people in their positions would have integrity to do so) and concluded there was not enough evidence that the coach was banging juniors, that this one weird incident was probably an isolated and extreme lapse of judgment. That to me is "washing their hands". He was no longer a paid employee, nor had any future with PSU.

If the legal authorities and police concluded there was no wrongdoing , it is plausible they continued to let the Second Mile continue to use the facilities (wherein this access you mention comes from) for what they perceived to be a good thing, helping a youth charitable organization.

You also state that Paterno had a moral obligation not to "sweep it under the rug" with reference to the 1998 incident. I am not sure how could you suggest this? The police were involved, the boy's mother was notified and was part of the investigation, and the DA was involved. Absent anything we now know occurred after that time frame, how could you suggest an obligation to do more? I think Joe Pa more likely was being misled by a liar just like the rest of the community. I think the worst you could say (in 1998) was that he was trusting and naive.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Pego » Wed Nov 16, 2011 11:36 am

odelltrclan wrote:The police were involved, the boy's mother was notified and part of the investigation, and the DA were involved. Absent anything we now know occurred after that time frame, could you suggest obligations to do more? I think Joe Pa more likely was being misled by a liar just like the rest of the community.


I think we are on the same page. The only person beside Sandusky that I have a real problem with is the 1998 DA and he is dead.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby lonewolf » Wed Nov 16, 2011 11:45 am

The fact is, in a situation like this, perception has the same effect as reality. For the greater good of the institution, if that is their priority, to avoid perception/suspicion of cover up, those in charge must take aggresive corrective action at time.
I have neither animus or reverence for Paterno/Pennstate and I perceive that JoePa and other Penn State authorities conspired to cover up.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby 26mi235 » Wed Nov 16, 2011 1:11 pm

Presumably McQueary told police after talking with Paterno, as the event was Saturday evening and he talked with Paterno first thing Sunday morning.

All sorts of scenarios are possible given the still limited information available, especially with some of it seeming to contradict other pieces. the 1998 -> 1999 non- promotion/(forced?) resignation--failure to take another head coaching job for $1million/year raises some flags, but there are several divergent possibilities.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby jeremyp » Wed Nov 16, 2011 1:37 pm

gh wrote:At this point, am I the only one who has had "McMartin Preschool" run through his head?


I certainly hope so! If you're buying Sandusky's interview I can only attribute that to a "senior moment."
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Dutra » Wed Nov 16, 2011 5:43 pm

26mi235 wrote:Presumably McQueary told police after talking with Paterno, as the event was Saturday evening and he talked with Paterno first thing Sunday morning.

All sorts of scenarios are possible given the still limited information available, especially with some of it seeming to contradict other pieces. the 1998 -> 1999 non- promotion/(forced?) resignation--failure to take another head coaching job for $1million/year raises some flags, but there are several divergent possibilities.


Initially McQueary was said to have told Paterno who told the AD who told the guy in charge of Campus Police. McQueary then met with the AD and the head of Campus police (oddly without Paterno...at least to me). So he did speak to police. He hasn't said that he called police about the incident initially.

My biggest problem is calling dad instead of police. Call the police whether you broke it up or not.

Also....there are so many instances where there seems to be issues which can be construed that there is a potential coverup throughout this entire story that it is not difficult to understand why some think this is a much bigger problem than those who are willing to accept things at face value.

PSU lobbied the PA legislature to pass a law in which it was no longer required to disclose records normally made public....such as incidents like this. It's a little too convenient to me. There are a multitude of conveniences running through this story.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Dutra » Wed Nov 16, 2011 5:49 pm

odelltrclan wrote:More plausible to me is that PSU and Paterno were disturbed by what happened in 1998 and essentially told Sandusky that he was no longer welcome as a coach and would not advance further and essentially to go away.


Giving a former coach and office with full facility access is a pretty odd way of telling someone to go away.

We already know that two members in this chain were willing to couch the truth enough to earn a perjury charge. So concluding that just maybe there's some serious shenanigans going on in handling Mr. Sandusky's situation with more than they.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby jeremyp » Wed Nov 16, 2011 7:20 pm

Since neither of Mcqueary's late mea non culpas were recorded by either the Grand Jury or the police one has to assume he's changing history. Pun intended. Too little, too late.
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