Penn State/State Pen [split]


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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Daisy » Fri Nov 11, 2011 2:55 pm

cullman wrote:
mojo wrote:Am I the only one who gives him ZERO? Oh I think lonewolf is with me.

I also give him a ZERO. McQueary was more concerned about the Cult of college football. His obligation was to call the police immediately...not talk to his father...not Joe Paterno...

ZERO from me.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Pego » Fri Nov 11, 2011 3:03 pm

As far as I am concerned, the only villain in this drama is Sandusky. Everybody else is his victim. The kids, of course, are the biggest victims, but the coaches were betrayed by him. The amount of vitriol here should be aimed at Sandusky only. He is the only rapist here.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Dutra » Fri Nov 11, 2011 3:05 pm

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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Daisy » Fri Nov 11, 2011 3:10 pm

Pego wrote:Everybody else is his victim.

A great reason to get rid of these football programs. Far too many victims. I'd be happy to see NCAA split from universities and let them start running farm teams as a business. The athletics programs really distract from the primary mission. Is there any other country that has universities running farm teams for professional teams?
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Dutra » Fri Nov 11, 2011 3:21 pm

Pego wrote:As far as I am concerned, the only villain in this drama is Sandusky. Everybody else is his victim. The kids, of course, are the biggest victims, but the coaches were betrayed by him. The amount of vitriol here should be aimed at Sandusky only. He is the only rapist here.


Would you feel the same if it was anyone (not necessarily a child) being stabbed to death in the shower?
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby odelltrclan » Fri Nov 11, 2011 3:22 pm

Pego wrote:As far as I am concerned, the only villain in this drama is Sandusky. Everybody else is his victim. The kids, of course, are the biggest victims, but the coaches were betrayed by him. The amount of vitriol here should be aimed at Sandusky only. He is the only rapist here.


Best point made all day !!!!!!!!!!!
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Pego » Fri Nov 11, 2011 3:29 pm

Dutra wrote:
Pego wrote:As far as I am concerned, the only villain in this drama is Sandusky. Everybody else is his victim. The kids, of course, are the biggest victims, but the coaches were betrayed by him. The amount of vitriol here should be aimed at Sandusky only. He is the only rapist here.


Would you feel the same if it was anyone (not necessarily a child) being stabbed to death in the shower?


What are you asking? Feeling about what?
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby guru » Fri Nov 11, 2011 3:56 pm

Dutra wrote:
Pego wrote:As far as I am concerned, the only villain in this drama is Sandusky. Everybody else is his victim. The kids, of course, are the biggest victims, but the coaches were betrayed by him. The amount of vitriol here should be aimed at Sandusky only. He is the only rapist here.


Would you feel the same if it was anyone (not necessarily a child) being stabbed to death in the shower?



Funny you should mention that...

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/08100/871627-143.stm


According to the police report, PSU assistant coaches Mike McQueary, Dick Anderson and Kermit Buggs restrained Bell and took a 12-inch knife from his hand after Bell and Still began arguing over Still's new cell phone case.

Police said Still accused Bell of stealing the case. Bell denied the accusations, police said. At one point, the police report stated, Still said Bell told him, "Come get the case, and I am going to stab you," and Bell later shouted at Still, "I have more knives and a gun up here!"
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby mojo » Fri Nov 11, 2011 4:11 pm

Pego wrote:As far as I am concerned, the only villain in this drama is Sandusky. Everybody else is his victim. The kids, of course, are the biggest victims, but the coaches were betrayed by him. The amount of vitriol here should be aimed at Sandusky only. He is the only rapist here.



I rarely disagree with you pego but on this we are way apart.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby 26mi235 » Fri Nov 11, 2011 4:25 pm

It is my impression that when McQueary saw them they saw him, and when they did the assault ended. Thus, is going away did not allow the attack to continue.


A comment by someone involved now in the Penn State investigation is the MQ's situation is 'complicated'. Paraphrasing 'he is a witness, which makes him different from the others'. Also, there is a wistleblower issue given that he reported the incident and he is an employee of a state entity.


I too have trouble with the amount of comment on the various parties. As I see it

Sandusky >> AD and VP >? Paterno > (and maybe >>) McQueary. Remember, McQueary reported it to the head of campus police, apparently in graphic detail greatly different than what the AD and VP tesitfied to and I think what Paterno testified to.


There is an interesting piece on the Governor. He started this case as the Atty General because the local AD contacted them and indicated that they had a conflict of intesest. He left the case when he became governor and was not further informed of it other then 'it is coming along'. It was his specific knowledge that made in very impatient with the school. He made it known that they should be 'very aggressive' in handling the case, and he was not getting that aggressive handling from the President (Spanier) or Paterno. He let it be known that he was going to be attending the Board meeting (his first such attendance). At the same time, he could not, directly or indirectly, divulge things from the Grand Jury.

Apparently the release of the report was accident; it was filed under seal but there was some (computer) glitch that led to it being posted to the web.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby 26mi235 » Fri Nov 11, 2011 4:36 pm

To separate this from the other text, there is one very disturbing 'rumor', and I have only seen this mentioned once (I heard it last night). I think this comment came from a PSU alum who was a pro and is now commentating (not sure about this last). He said something like he had heard a rumor [hence a rumor about a rumor] that the charity (Second Mile) was pimping for rich donors.

If this is accurate, we have not seen anything yet, although the connection to the university might be somewhat less.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby 26mi235 » Fri Nov 11, 2011 4:40 pm

Here is part of the McQueary quesiton:

"Described in court papers as distraught about witnessing the 2002 attack, unrelated local newspaper accounts from the time indicate McQueary appeared in the months and years that followed in charity events that Sandusky also took part in, or were to benefit Sandusky's group The Second Mile.

Asked if McQueary would be fired, Erickson said "there are complexities to that issue that I am not prepared to go into at this point."

In forums online, and in comments on other websites, some have indeed called for McQueary to be ousted, but the assistant coach could be protected as a whistleblower.

Gerald J. Williams, a partner at a Philadelphia law firm, said Pennsylvania law is broad in protecting a person who reports wrongdoing, as long as that person is part of a governmental or quasi-governmental institution, such as Penn State.

"There are certain provisions out there for whistleblowers. (It) doesn't matter if it's frustrating or not," Gov. Tom Corbett said Friday in State College, where he attended a Penn State trustees meeting. Described in court papers as distraught about witnessing the 2002 attack, unrelated local newspaper accounts from the time indicate McQueary appeared in the months and years that followed in charity events that Sandusky also took part in, or were to benefit Sandusky's group The Second Mile.

Asked if McQueary would be fired, Erickson said "there are complexities to that issue that I am not prepared to go into at this point."

In forums online, and in comments on other websites, some have indeed called for McQueary to be ousted, but the assistant coach could be protected as a whistleblower.

Gerald J. Williams, a partner at a Philadelphia law firm, said Pennsylvania law is broad in protecting a person who reports wrongdoing, as long as that person is part of a governmental or quasi-governmental institution, such as Penn State.

"There are certain provisions out there for whistleblowers. (It) doesn't matter if it's frustrating or not," Gov. Tom Corbett said Friday in State College, where he attended a Penn State trustees meeting.


http://abcnews.go.com/Sports/wireStory/psu-mcqueary-put-administrative-leave-14935461?page=2#.Tr3ABnKflMQ
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby guru » Fri Nov 11, 2011 4:42 pm

I linked it earlier, but here's the Pennsylvania Whistleblower law

http://www.wcblegal.com/files/43_P_S____1421.pdf
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Pego » Fri Nov 11, 2011 4:56 pm

mojo wrote:
Pego wrote:As far as I am concerned, the only villain in this drama is Sandusky. Everybody else is his victim. The kids, of course, are the biggest victims, but the coaches were betrayed by him. The amount of vitriol here should be aimed at Sandusky only. He is the only rapist here.



I rarely disagree with you pego but on this we are way apart.


You still love me, no :? ?
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Marlow » Fri Nov 11, 2011 5:03 pm

Pego wrote:
mojo wrote:
Pego wrote:As far as I am concerned, the only villain in this drama is Sandusky. Everybody else is his victim. The kids, of course, are the biggest victims, but the coaches were betrayed by him. The amount of vitriol here should be aimed at Sandusky only. He is the only rapist here.

I rarely disagree with you pego but on this we are way apart.

You still love me, no :? ?

Hey, I love you, Pego, but gotta go with mojo here. I do feel badly that everyone else had to be a part of all this, but this certainly seems to be one of those situations where - if you're not part of the solution (making sure Sandusky got put away after the FIRST incident), you're part of the problem.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby mojo » Fri Nov 11, 2011 5:29 pm

Pego wrote:
mojo wrote:
Pego wrote:As far as I am concerned, the only villain in this drama is Sandusky. Everybody else is his victim. The kids, of course, are the biggest victims, but the coaches were betrayed by him. The amount of vitriol here should be aimed at Sandusky only. He is the only rapist here.



I rarely disagree with you pego but on this we are way apart.


You still love me, no :? ?




Of course I do!

What marlow said.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby gh » Fri Nov 11, 2011 5:58 pm

Blogger-supreme Andy Horowitz on the Penn State students:

<<...Responding to Wednesday night’s rioting in support of ousted football coach Joe Paterno, the board of trustees of Penn State University today took the extraordinary step of replacing the entire student body with an interim student body.

“After careful consideration, we decided we had to make a change,” said trustee Harley Manvers.  “Hopefully, these interim students won’t be such jackasses.”

Mr. Manvers said that finding 40,000-plus new students in time to attend Saturday’s game against Nebraska was a “daunting task.”

“We needed to find a large number of people with absolutely nothing going on in their lives,” he said.  “Fortunately, we found them on Twitter.”...>>
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby balzonia » Fri Nov 11, 2011 6:02 pm

Some background on McQ:

Born and raised in College Station, PA
Father was College Station High School Head Football Coach for many years
His only dream in life was to play for JoePa
McQ did play for Penn State and was a "local boy" done good.
Lived, breathed, worshiped Penn State football from birth

This kid's entire identity was/is Penn State football. PSU football (JoePa) was/is more important to him than anything else possibly including his own family. PSU football was/is his religion and he was/is as devout as any radical zealot.

Then he ran into a situation that exploded his entire reason for living...

I'm not saying he shouldn't have run in there and swung a pipe into Sandusky's head. I understand, though, why he hesitated and went to his heroes, his father and JoePa, instead of the cops. He believed more in them than the cops. He was raised to believe in PSU and JoePa more than anything/anyone else.

It's not an excuse. It's just understanding what might have made him behave in a way many of us think was inadequate.

If there is a lesson here, I'd say it is that people need to quit worshiping sport over humanity.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Marlow » Fri Nov 11, 2011 6:12 pm

balzonia wrote:people need to quit worshiping sport over humanity.

True. And you can replace the word 'sport' with lots of other words too . . . job, country, alcohol, drugs, religion (not the same as 'God'), etc. .
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby guru » Fri Nov 11, 2011 6:22 pm

Terrific CNNSI piece on just what balzonia is talking about

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/w ... =hp_t11_a3
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Dutra » Fri Nov 11, 2011 7:01 pm

Pego wrote:
Dutra wrote:
Pego wrote:As far as I am concerned, the only villain in this drama is Sandusky. Everybody else is his victim. The kids, of course, are the biggest victims, but the coaches were betrayed by him. The amount of vitriol here should be aimed at Sandusky only. He is the only rapist here.


Would you feel the same if it was anyone (not necessarily a child) being stabbed to death in the shower?


What are you asking? Feeling about what?


The fact that there wasn't exactly a robust reporting of the event...no intervention, police called or followup on the crime.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby jazzcyclist » Fri Nov 11, 2011 7:04 pm

Pego wrote:As far as I am concerned, the only villain in this drama is Sandusky. Everybody else is his victim. The kids, of course, are the biggest victims, but the coaches were betrayed by him. The amount of vitriol here should be aimed at Sandusky only. He is the only rapist here.

My brother, who happens to be a pediatrician, a career Army officer and is about as close to a real-life all-American boyscout as you will ever meet, feels the same way you do Pego. And this is a guy who will step in when he sees complete strangers administering corporal punishment to their own kids.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Pego » Fri Nov 11, 2011 7:08 pm

Dutra wrote:
Pego wrote:
Dutra wrote:
Pego wrote:As far as I am concerned, the only villain in this drama is Sandusky. Everybody else is his victim. The kids, of course, are the biggest victims, but the coaches were betrayed by him. The amount of vitriol here should be aimed at Sandusky only. He is the only rapist here.


Would you feel the same if it was anyone (not necessarily a child) being stabbed to death in the shower?


What are you asking? Feeling about what?


The fact that there wasn't exactly a robust reporting of the event...no intervention, police called or followup on the crime.


I am not saying, they couldn't do more. They could and they should and since they didn't, they should be terminated. All I am saying is that the only one to be truly demonized is Sandusky.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby jazzcyclist » Fri Nov 11, 2011 7:12 pm

odelltrclan wrote:Are you trying to egg him on? He said not to rehash it and leave it alone. And you wonder why I got upset the other day. You have a lot of wonderful things you post and then you also come up with crap like this. Let it rest!

I don't see why you felt the need to interject yourself. I like Marlow and I'm sure we can work out our differences without your help/instigation. I'm going to repeat what I said earlier in this same thread:

I'm not going to get into a silly, juvenile pissing contest with you. If you want to play those kind of junior high school games, you'll have to find someone else to play with.

Grow up man, grow up. :(
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby cullman » Fri Nov 11, 2011 7:20 pm

balzonia wrote:...It's not an excuse. It's just understanding what might have made him behave in a way many of us think was inadequate.

If there is a lesson here, I'd say it is that people need to quit worshiping sport over humanity.

...also...

<< It is in the nature of childhood sexual abuse for victims, perpetrators, and witnesses to want to disassociate themselves from the act. That's why the law requires grown-ups to act like grown-ups. That's why Tim Curley, the Penn State athletic director, took a leave of absence and Gary Schultz, vice president for finance and business, retired last week after being charged with perjury and failure to report charges of serial abuse in athletic facilities on the campus of a publicly financed institution of higher learning. >>

excerpt from: http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/721 ... -grown-ups

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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Conor Dary » Fri Nov 11, 2011 7:22 pm

mojo wrote:
SQUACKEE wrote:I disagree, I could give Mcq a pass for awhile, stunned and dominated he didnt know what to do, but he had weeks and months and years to think about little boys being raped because HE DID NOTHING! and was ok with it. If it was not ok, he would have done something....IT WAS OK WITH HIM, do you get that?

We live in a world now where that is acceptable, unbelievable to me.




Am I the only one who gives him ZERO? Oh I think lonewolf is with me.

Do you give a pass to any of the people who walked past a dying child in China (all over the news) and did not have the decency to help her? Would you give a pass to seeing a woman being raped in a park? What would you expect and want anyone to do if that was your child? No child gives consent and not screaming is because he was frightened and traumatized to death and just wanted it over. God it kills me to think about children going through this....

You may think this is overly dramatic but I actually think of all kids as mine-in the sense that I will do anything to protect them. I have spoken out when I have seen verbal abuse in public, I will help a parent who looks harried in a grocery store...and I sure as hell would have done whtaever it took to get that monster away from the child.

Okay I will step away from this thread....just upsets me too much (not you guys but Sandusky, McQueary etc.) May Sandusky rot in a jail for the rest of his life.


Hey, mojo you forgot me! We're on the same page.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby jazzcyclist » Fri Nov 11, 2011 7:30 pm

This is amazing and sad.
another former Nittany Lion said he hasn't forgotten Sandusky, even as the former assistant coach stands accused of having sex with young boys.

Sam Stellatella, a three-position player in the 1950s, has donated money to Sandusky's defense and urged other former players to do the same.

"I told him he's going to need a million dollars to defend himself," the 73-year-old Stellatella said. "He called me back and said, 'What am I going to do with this money?' I said, 'Use it for your lawyer because you're going to need it.' "

Stellatella sent Sandusky $100. He wrote personal letters to other members of the 1959 Liberty Bowl team that defeated a Bear Bryant-coached Alabama team and asked they also donate. He does not know how much money was raised.

"I know some of the guys sent money," Stellatella told The Associated Press. "Here's the thing, these are horrendous charges against him. But he's still entitled to his day in court. Everybody's prejudged him. He's done horrendous damage to Paterno and (athletic director Tim) Curley and the football program. I don't listen to the news and I don't read the reports of what he did because I would get too upset.

http://espn.go.com/college-football/sto ... ly-program
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby JRM » Fri Nov 11, 2011 7:33 pm

One of my wife's co-workers started his career with Sandusky at his non-profit in State College, helping foster youth. He's devastated by this whole event, because he said Sandusky was such a role model for him.

That being said, I'm with mojo et al. on the "blame game" argument. There are 'proper channels' to report academic impropriety at a University, but any violation of state/federal law transcends those. You can inform your 'next-up', but you also inform them you're calling the police.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby mojo » Fri Nov 11, 2011 7:43 pm

Glad to hear it Conor.

Well pego that clarifies things a bit. I do only demonize the monster but I do want the others to face some kind of consequence for their action. I am glad you agree they should have done more.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby 26mi235 » Fri Nov 11, 2011 7:53 pm

So can people tell me why telling the head of campus police (the local police authority) is not telling the police?
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby jazzcyclist » Fri Nov 11, 2011 8:08 pm

Where is Sandusky now? Didn't he make bail? I can't imagine that he would stay at his house in State College if he expects to remain alive.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby jazzcyclist » Fri Nov 11, 2011 8:10 pm

mojo wrote:Glad to hear it Conor.

Well pego that clarifies things a bit. I do only demonize the monster but I do want the others to face some kind of consequence for their action. I am glad you agree they should have done more.

Even Paterno admits that he should have done more.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby guru » Fri Nov 11, 2011 8:15 pm

jazzcyclist wrote:Where is Sandusky now? Didn't he make bail? I can't imagine that he would stay at his house in State College if he expects to remain alive.



Out on 100K bail. Reported Thursday that he was seen shopping at an area Dick's Sporting Goods in Penn State gear.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby jazzcyclist » Fri Nov 11, 2011 8:26 pm

guru wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote:Where is Sandusky now? Didn't he make bail? I can't imagine that he would stay at his house in State College if he expects to remain alive.



Out on 100K bail. Reported Thursday that he was seen shopping at an area Dick's Sporting Goods in Penn State gear.

Maybe he should have went downtown to where the mob was a couple of nights ago and saved the taxpayers the cost of a trial.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Dutra » Fri Nov 11, 2011 8:42 pm

Pego wrote:and they should and since they didn't, they should be terminated. All I am saying is that the only one to be truly demonized is Sandusky.


Fair enough. I don't really demonize Paterno. What I don't get is those that either "protect" him or believe he told a superior about the incident and then was done with it. That just makes no sense to me. This was his program top to bottom. There weren't superiors.

I also feel we don't know the entire story and strongly suspect that this was all known back in 1998 at the latest. In my mind this would put Paterno in a worse position.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby SQUACKEE » Sat Nov 12, 2011 5:29 am

Of course the monster gets the vast majority of my venom, but you could make a case that the sicko is indeed sick and can not help himself. Mcq is not "sick" so he must bear some responsibility.

What is the difference between the campus police and the real police? Rather big I would say. The campus police had a 100% of hearing an eyewitness account of child rape and doing nothing-100% The odds the real police would hear the account and do nothing is 0%. 0 verses 100, big difference.

Pego, you have earned our respect over the years with your brilliant posts and this doesn't change that at all. I have to ask you though, as a holocaust survivor, do you know hold the people who knew all about it and did absolutely nothing somewhat responsible?

And lastly, Mojo touched on it but I want to clarify it, so the people who give Mcg a pass please indicate which one of the following crimes he would see and you would NOT give him a pass, thank you.

A. Raping a women who is tied up and has duct tape over her mouth-

B. A women is tied up and screaming and he is cutting body parts off of her

C. He is dousing a child with gasoline and setting him of fire.

D. Mcg walks in the see's the monster strangling an infant

My list is rather short, I cant think of many things worse that what actually happened!
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby guru » Sat Nov 12, 2011 6:04 am

Watching ESPN at 9:00 AM, 3 hours before gametime, and there is virtually no one in the lots tailgating. Might be interesting to see how many people turn up for the game.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby DrJay » Sat Nov 12, 2011 6:44 am

jazzcyclist wrote:Where is Sandusky now? Didn't he make bail? I can't imagine that he would stay at his house in State College if he expects to remain alive.


This may be inappropriate, but this whole affair is so evil, so public, will take so many people down with it, and is so hopeless for him that it wouldn't be at all surprising if he takes matters into his own hands and ends his life.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby jazzcyclist » Sat Nov 12, 2011 7:06 am

This week, ESPN personalities and prominent Penn State football alumni Todd Blackledge and Matt Millen reacted in a way that would imply that they had never heard about the Sandusky rumors and they were totally blindsided by the whole thing. Is that plausible?
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby jazzcyclist » Sat Nov 12, 2011 7:18 am

balzonia wrote:I'm not saying he shouldn't have run in there and swung a pipe into Sandusky's head. I understand, though, why he hesitated and went to his heroes, his father and JoePa, instead of the cops. He believed more in them than the cops. He was raised to believe in PSU and JoePa more than anything/anyone else.

It's not an excuse. It's just understanding what might have made him behave in a way many of us think was inadequate.

I understand exactly what you're saying. You don't have to condone an action in order to understand it. We're all the product of our environment and our life experiences.

balzonia wrote:If there is a lesson here, I'd say it is that people need to quit worshiping sport over humanity.

The University of Alabama obviously didn't heed your advice after they after they built a statue of Nick Saban after just three years at the helm.

By the way, am I the only one who was surprised at the modesty of the Paterno home and the cars in the driveway? That in itself probably added to his appeal in the community considerably. There's no way that the Sabans would live in a house like that or drive those cars. Here's the link to a photo:

http://www.dailyorange.com/polopoly_fs/ ... 108792.jpg
Last edited by jazzcyclist on Sat Nov 12, 2011 7:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
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