Penn State/State Pen [split]


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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby jazzcyclist » Fri Nov 11, 2011 11:24 am

Marlow wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote:You're not positive of anything

Yeah, actually I am. There are many things I don't know about myself, but there are SOME things I do. We had a particularly nasty thread here once about what one would one do if he knew his buddy was cheating on his wife. I was in the very small minority who said I would tell him either he tell his wife or I would. This was not a hypothetical situation for me. It happened. The vast majority of men would disagree with me (and even vilify me), but I know what I can live with and what I can't.

1) I remember that thread. There's absolutely no comparison between hearing about a friend screwing around on his wife and seeing your coach but-fucking a kid. I once found out about a friend screwing around and it didn't rattle me one bit. I'm pretty sure that I would have lost my composure at least for a few seconds if I saw what McQueary did.

2) When I said you're not positive how you would react, I was talking about the initial instant that you saw the deed while you're still in shock, not hours or days later after you had an opportunity to compose yourself and think about what you should do. Going to the police after the fact is one thing, but attacking the pedophile is another. I'm admit that it's a lot easier to predict what you would do after you've composed yourself. But here's something you also have to remember. The worst possible consequence of you ratting out your friend was that his marriage would be ruined. The likely consequence of McQueary going to the cops was that a patriarchal figure whom he had known since he was a kid would spend the rest of his life in prison.

By the way, IIRC you only threatened to rat out your friend, you didn't actually rat him out. Am I correct? Or did you actually tell his wife?
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby jazzcyclist » Fri Nov 11, 2011 11:34 am

mojo wrote:There is no way you would not know that was a child.

McQuery gets no passes from me at all.


You've totally missed the point that gh and I were getting at. If McQueary instinctively walked away as soon as he saw two people having sex, he could have been a good distance away from the scene by the time he got over the shock of what he saw, processed what he saw and composed himself. There was a janitor who saw Sandusky molesting a kid a few years earlier and he was so rattled that the first person who saw him thought he was having a heart attack.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby jazzcyclist » Fri Nov 11, 2011 11:36 am

gh wrote:To be clear: I cut McQ no slack for what happened subsequently. Or, more properly, what didn't happen. He indeed deserves to swing in the wind.

I agree 100%. The initial action should be judged differently than the subsequent action.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby mojo » Fri Nov 11, 2011 11:41 am

This isn't cutting him some slack:

I'd like to think that if it had appeared to be a physical attack of a violent kind (on anybody of either sex of any age), McQ would have acted much differently. One's first reaction to coming upon anybody "having sex" is to turn as quickly as possible and get out of the way.


Look I know you are as horrified by what happened as anyone but the statement above clearly tries to give McQueary an out. I give him zero.


I have spent all of my adult life caring for and working with ten year olds-they are small, helpless, vulnerable human beings. No one stood up for them-not a single adult. That scars one for life. I hope they are doing okay and have gotten the help they need.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Marlow » Fri Nov 11, 2011 11:42 am

jazzcyclist wrote:I remember that thread. There's absolutely no comparison between hearing about a friend screwing around on his wife and seeing your coach but-fucking a kid.

Wow - way to completely miss the point! My only point is that I do know what I would have done, because in a situation that most people CAN live with (not blow the whistle), I would have. The PSU situation is several magnitudes worse and you don't think I wouldn't have responded the same? And no, we're not going to re-hash the other thread, thank you.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby lonewolf » Fri Nov 11, 2011 12:19 pm

Enough rationalizing. No adult involved in this mess gets any slack. None. Zero. Zilch. Nada. Hang em now. Trial to follow. :x
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Marlow » Fri Nov 11, 2011 12:29 pm

lonewolf wrote:Enough rationalizing. No adult involved in this mess gets any slack. None. Zero. Zilch. Nada. Hang em now. Trial to follow. :x

Aye, and there's the rub. It is not without possibility that the entire coaching staff 'knew' and was tacitly part of the cover-up by NOT coming forward (to outside authority) with what they knew. And if they had, did not State College police and DAs already have access to this info from 2002? This is going to fall squarely on the entire community, because (and I paraphrase), "Paterno is God, and God has already been informed."
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby jazzcyclist » Fri Nov 11, 2011 12:49 pm

Marlow wrote:And no, we're not going to re-hash the other thread, thank you.

And so you didn't tell your friends wife? Why not? Don't you think she had a right to know? Talk about hypocrisy?
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby odelltrclan » Fri Nov 11, 2011 1:04 pm

jazzcyclist wrote:
Marlow wrote:And no, we're not going to re-hash the other thread, thank you.

And so you didn't tell your friends wife? Why not? Don't you think she had a right to know? Talk about hypocrisy?


Are you trying to egg him on? He said not to rehash it and leave it alone. And you wonder why I got upset the other day. You have a lot of wonderful things you post and then you also come up with crap like this. Let it rest!
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby jeremyp » Fri Nov 11, 2011 1:27 pm

With regard to MCQ. I think he reacted the way most people in his shoes would have done. He caved to authority. A famous Psych study (called the Milgram study http://rogerhollander.wordpress.com/200 ... periments/) done in the 60's&70's showed that the vast majority of people acquiesced to authority and went against their moral value system (in this case causing (what they thought was) ever increasing physical harm to another.)

MCQ told authority and feared the consequences of challenging it by going rogue. I don't judge him at all. He is us. History has endless examples of people doing the "wrong" thing when fearing the consequences of doing the "right" thing.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby guru » Fri Nov 11, 2011 1:33 pm

I agree with Jeremy. And it looks like McQueary has protection under Pennsylvania's Whistleblower Act

http://www.wcblegal.com/files/43_P_S____1421.pdf
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby SQUACKEE » Fri Nov 11, 2011 1:42 pm

I disagree, I could give Mcq a pass for awhile, stunned and dominated he didnt know what to do, but he had weeks and months and years to think about little boys being raped because HE DID NOTHING! and was ok with it. If it was not ok, he would have done something....IT WAS OK WITH HIM, do you get that?

We live in a world now where that is acceptable, unbelievable to me.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Friar » Fri Nov 11, 2011 2:01 pm

think the entire state should be fired,

The cover-up just wouldn't be possible here. Not a chance. Information moves quickly (true or false).
A major non-political figure was once forced to do a local live televised press conference just to deny a rather stunning rumor.
"Presidential Medal of Freedom,”

A few that have received it recently should be garroted, rather than have a medal put around their neck.
Others like Stan Musial, Bill Russell, Colin Powell? The highest civilian honor? Give me a break.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby mojo » Fri Nov 11, 2011 2:34 pm

SQUACKEE wrote:I disagree, I could give Mcq a pass for awhile, stunned and dominated he didnt know what to do, but he had weeks and months and years to think about little boys being raped because HE DID NOTHING! and was ok with it. If it was not ok, he would have done something....IT WAS OK WITH HIM, do you get that?

We live in a world now where that is acceptable, unbelievable to me.




Am I the only one who gives him ZERO? Oh I think lonewolf is with me.

Do you give a pass to any of the people who walked past a dying child in China (all over the news) and did not have the decency to help her? Would you give a pass to seeing a woman being raped in a park? What would you expect and want anyone to do if that was your child? No child gives consent and not screaming is because he was frightened and traumatized to death and just wanted it over. God it kills me to think about children going through this....

You may think this is overly dramatic but I actually think of all kids as mine-in the sense that I will do anything to protect them. I have spoken out when I have seen verbal abuse in public, I will help a parent who looks harried in a grocery store...and I sure as hell would have done whtaever it took to get that monster away from the child.

Okay I will step away from this thread....just upsets me too much (not you guys but Sandusky, McQueary etc.) May Sandusky rot in a jail for the rest of his life.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby cullman » Fri Nov 11, 2011 2:46 pm

mojo wrote:Am I the only one who gives him ZERO? Oh I think lonewolf is with me.

I also give him a ZERO. McQueary was more concerned about the Cult of college football. His obligation was to call the police immediately...not talk to his father...not Joe Paterno...

cman
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Daisy » Fri Nov 11, 2011 2:55 pm

cullman wrote:
mojo wrote:Am I the only one who gives him ZERO? Oh I think lonewolf is with me.

I also give him a ZERO. McQueary was more concerned about the Cult of college football. His obligation was to call the police immediately...not talk to his father...not Joe Paterno...

ZERO from me.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Pego » Fri Nov 11, 2011 3:03 pm

As far as I am concerned, the only villain in this drama is Sandusky. Everybody else is his victim. The kids, of course, are the biggest victims, but the coaches were betrayed by him. The amount of vitriol here should be aimed at Sandusky only. He is the only rapist here.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Dutra » Fri Nov 11, 2011 3:05 pm

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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Daisy » Fri Nov 11, 2011 3:10 pm

Pego wrote:Everybody else is his victim.

A great reason to get rid of these football programs. Far too many victims. I'd be happy to see NCAA split from universities and let them start running farm teams as a business. The athletics programs really distract from the primary mission. Is there any other country that has universities running farm teams for professional teams?
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Dutra » Fri Nov 11, 2011 3:21 pm

Pego wrote:As far as I am concerned, the only villain in this drama is Sandusky. Everybody else is his victim. The kids, of course, are the biggest victims, but the coaches were betrayed by him. The amount of vitriol here should be aimed at Sandusky only. He is the only rapist here.


Would you feel the same if it was anyone (not necessarily a child) being stabbed to death in the shower?
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby odelltrclan » Fri Nov 11, 2011 3:22 pm

Pego wrote:As far as I am concerned, the only villain in this drama is Sandusky. Everybody else is his victim. The kids, of course, are the biggest victims, but the coaches were betrayed by him. The amount of vitriol here should be aimed at Sandusky only. He is the only rapist here.


Best point made all day !!!!!!!!!!!
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Pego » Fri Nov 11, 2011 3:29 pm

Dutra wrote:
Pego wrote:As far as I am concerned, the only villain in this drama is Sandusky. Everybody else is his victim. The kids, of course, are the biggest victims, but the coaches were betrayed by him. The amount of vitriol here should be aimed at Sandusky only. He is the only rapist here.


Would you feel the same if it was anyone (not necessarily a child) being stabbed to death in the shower?


What are you asking? Feeling about what?
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby guru » Fri Nov 11, 2011 3:56 pm

Dutra wrote:
Pego wrote:As far as I am concerned, the only villain in this drama is Sandusky. Everybody else is his victim. The kids, of course, are the biggest victims, but the coaches were betrayed by him. The amount of vitriol here should be aimed at Sandusky only. He is the only rapist here.


Would you feel the same if it was anyone (not necessarily a child) being stabbed to death in the shower?



Funny you should mention that...

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/08100/871627-143.stm


According to the police report, PSU assistant coaches Mike McQueary, Dick Anderson and Kermit Buggs restrained Bell and took a 12-inch knife from his hand after Bell and Still began arguing over Still's new cell phone case.

Police said Still accused Bell of stealing the case. Bell denied the accusations, police said. At one point, the police report stated, Still said Bell told him, "Come get the case, and I am going to stab you," and Bell later shouted at Still, "I have more knives and a gun up here!"
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby mojo » Fri Nov 11, 2011 4:11 pm

Pego wrote:As far as I am concerned, the only villain in this drama is Sandusky. Everybody else is his victim. The kids, of course, are the biggest victims, but the coaches were betrayed by him. The amount of vitriol here should be aimed at Sandusky only. He is the only rapist here.



I rarely disagree with you pego but on this we are way apart.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby 26mi235 » Fri Nov 11, 2011 4:25 pm

It is my impression that when McQueary saw them they saw him, and when they did the assault ended. Thus, is going away did not allow the attack to continue.


A comment by someone involved now in the Penn State investigation is the MQ's situation is 'complicated'. Paraphrasing 'he is a witness, which makes him different from the others'. Also, there is a wistleblower issue given that he reported the incident and he is an employee of a state entity.


I too have trouble with the amount of comment on the various parties. As I see it

Sandusky >> AD and VP >? Paterno > (and maybe >>) McQueary. Remember, McQueary reported it to the head of campus police, apparently in graphic detail greatly different than what the AD and VP tesitfied to and I think what Paterno testified to.


There is an interesting piece on the Governor. He started this case as the Atty General because the local AD contacted them and indicated that they had a conflict of intesest. He left the case when he became governor and was not further informed of it other then 'it is coming along'. It was his specific knowledge that made in very impatient with the school. He made it known that they should be 'very aggressive' in handling the case, and he was not getting that aggressive handling from the President (Spanier) or Paterno. He let it be known that he was going to be attending the Board meeting (his first such attendance). At the same time, he could not, directly or indirectly, divulge things from the Grand Jury.

Apparently the release of the report was accident; it was filed under seal but there was some (computer) glitch that led to it being posted to the web.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby 26mi235 » Fri Nov 11, 2011 4:36 pm

To separate this from the other text, there is one very disturbing 'rumor', and I have only seen this mentioned once (I heard it last night). I think this comment came from a PSU alum who was a pro and is now commentating (not sure about this last). He said something like he had heard a rumor [hence a rumor about a rumor] that the charity (Second Mile) was pimping for rich donors.

If this is accurate, we have not seen anything yet, although the connection to the university might be somewhat less.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby 26mi235 » Fri Nov 11, 2011 4:40 pm

Here is part of the McQueary quesiton:

"Described in court papers as distraught about witnessing the 2002 attack, unrelated local newspaper accounts from the time indicate McQueary appeared in the months and years that followed in charity events that Sandusky also took part in, or were to benefit Sandusky's group The Second Mile.

Asked if McQueary would be fired, Erickson said "there are complexities to that issue that I am not prepared to go into at this point."

In forums online, and in comments on other websites, some have indeed called for McQueary to be ousted, but the assistant coach could be protected as a whistleblower.

Gerald J. Williams, a partner at a Philadelphia law firm, said Pennsylvania law is broad in protecting a person who reports wrongdoing, as long as that person is part of a governmental or quasi-governmental institution, such as Penn State.

"There are certain provisions out there for whistleblowers. (It) doesn't matter if it's frustrating or not," Gov. Tom Corbett said Friday in State College, where he attended a Penn State trustees meeting. Described in court papers as distraught about witnessing the 2002 attack, unrelated local newspaper accounts from the time indicate McQueary appeared in the months and years that followed in charity events that Sandusky also took part in, or were to benefit Sandusky's group The Second Mile.

Asked if McQueary would be fired, Erickson said "there are complexities to that issue that I am not prepared to go into at this point."

In forums online, and in comments on other websites, some have indeed called for McQueary to be ousted, but the assistant coach could be protected as a whistleblower.

Gerald J. Williams, a partner at a Philadelphia law firm, said Pennsylvania law is broad in protecting a person who reports wrongdoing, as long as that person is part of a governmental or quasi-governmental institution, such as Penn State.

"There are certain provisions out there for whistleblowers. (It) doesn't matter if it's frustrating or not," Gov. Tom Corbett said Friday in State College, where he attended a Penn State trustees meeting.


http://abcnews.go.com/Sports/wireStory/psu-mcqueary-put-administrative-leave-14935461?page=2#.Tr3ABnKflMQ
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby guru » Fri Nov 11, 2011 4:42 pm

I linked it earlier, but here's the Pennsylvania Whistleblower law

http://www.wcblegal.com/files/43_P_S____1421.pdf
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Pego » Fri Nov 11, 2011 4:56 pm

mojo wrote:
Pego wrote:As far as I am concerned, the only villain in this drama is Sandusky. Everybody else is his victim. The kids, of course, are the biggest victims, but the coaches were betrayed by him. The amount of vitriol here should be aimed at Sandusky only. He is the only rapist here.



I rarely disagree with you pego but on this we are way apart.


You still love me, no :? ?
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Marlow » Fri Nov 11, 2011 5:03 pm

Pego wrote:
mojo wrote:
Pego wrote:As far as I am concerned, the only villain in this drama is Sandusky. Everybody else is his victim. The kids, of course, are the biggest victims, but the coaches were betrayed by him. The amount of vitriol here should be aimed at Sandusky only. He is the only rapist here.

I rarely disagree with you pego but on this we are way apart.

You still love me, no :? ?

Hey, I love you, Pego, but gotta go with mojo here. I do feel badly that everyone else had to be a part of all this, but this certainly seems to be one of those situations where - if you're not part of the solution (making sure Sandusky got put away after the FIRST incident), you're part of the problem.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby mojo » Fri Nov 11, 2011 5:29 pm

Pego wrote:
mojo wrote:
Pego wrote:As far as I am concerned, the only villain in this drama is Sandusky. Everybody else is his victim. The kids, of course, are the biggest victims, but the coaches were betrayed by him. The amount of vitriol here should be aimed at Sandusky only. He is the only rapist here.



I rarely disagree with you pego but on this we are way apart.


You still love me, no :? ?




Of course I do!

What marlow said.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby gh » Fri Nov 11, 2011 5:58 pm

Blogger-supreme Andy Horowitz on the Penn State students:

<<...Responding to Wednesday night’s rioting in support of ousted football coach Joe Paterno, the board of trustees of Penn State University today took the extraordinary step of replacing the entire student body with an interim student body.

“After careful consideration, we decided we had to make a change,” said trustee Harley Manvers.  “Hopefully, these interim students won’t be such jackasses.”

Mr. Manvers said that finding 40,000-plus new students in time to attend Saturday’s game against Nebraska was a “daunting task.”

“We needed to find a large number of people with absolutely nothing going on in their lives,” he said.  “Fortunately, we found them on Twitter.”...>>
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby balzonia » Fri Nov 11, 2011 6:02 pm

Some background on McQ:

Born and raised in College Station, PA
Father was College Station High School Head Football Coach for many years
His only dream in life was to play for JoePa
McQ did play for Penn State and was a "local boy" done good.
Lived, breathed, worshiped Penn State football from birth

This kid's entire identity was/is Penn State football. PSU football (JoePa) was/is more important to him than anything else possibly including his own family. PSU football was/is his religion and he was/is as devout as any radical zealot.

Then he ran into a situation that exploded his entire reason for living...

I'm not saying he shouldn't have run in there and swung a pipe into Sandusky's head. I understand, though, why he hesitated and went to his heroes, his father and JoePa, instead of the cops. He believed more in them than the cops. He was raised to believe in PSU and JoePa more than anything/anyone else.

It's not an excuse. It's just understanding what might have made him behave in a way many of us think was inadequate.

If there is a lesson here, I'd say it is that people need to quit worshiping sport over humanity.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Marlow » Fri Nov 11, 2011 6:12 pm

balzonia wrote:people need to quit worshiping sport over humanity.

True. And you can replace the word 'sport' with lots of other words too . . . job, country, alcohol, drugs, religion (not the same as 'God'), etc. .
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby guru » Fri Nov 11, 2011 6:22 pm

Terrific CNNSI piece on just what balzonia is talking about

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/w ... =hp_t11_a3
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Dutra » Fri Nov 11, 2011 7:01 pm

Pego wrote:
Dutra wrote:
Pego wrote:As far as I am concerned, the only villain in this drama is Sandusky. Everybody else is his victim. The kids, of course, are the biggest victims, but the coaches were betrayed by him. The amount of vitriol here should be aimed at Sandusky only. He is the only rapist here.


Would you feel the same if it was anyone (not necessarily a child) being stabbed to death in the shower?


What are you asking? Feeling about what?


The fact that there wasn't exactly a robust reporting of the event...no intervention, police called or followup on the crime.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby jazzcyclist » Fri Nov 11, 2011 7:04 pm

Pego wrote:As far as I am concerned, the only villain in this drama is Sandusky. Everybody else is his victim. The kids, of course, are the biggest victims, but the coaches were betrayed by him. The amount of vitriol here should be aimed at Sandusky only. He is the only rapist here.

My brother, who happens to be a pediatrician, a career Army officer and is about as close to a real-life all-American boyscout as you will ever meet, feels the same way you do Pego. And this is a guy who will step in when he sees complete strangers administering corporal punishment to their own kids.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Pego » Fri Nov 11, 2011 7:08 pm

Dutra wrote:
Pego wrote:
Dutra wrote:
Pego wrote:As far as I am concerned, the only villain in this drama is Sandusky. Everybody else is his victim. The kids, of course, are the biggest victims, but the coaches were betrayed by him. The amount of vitriol here should be aimed at Sandusky only. He is the only rapist here.


Would you feel the same if it was anyone (not necessarily a child) being stabbed to death in the shower?


What are you asking? Feeling about what?


The fact that there wasn't exactly a robust reporting of the event...no intervention, police called or followup on the crime.


I am not saying, they couldn't do more. They could and they should and since they didn't, they should be terminated. All I am saying is that the only one to be truly demonized is Sandusky.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby jazzcyclist » Fri Nov 11, 2011 7:12 pm

odelltrclan wrote:Are you trying to egg him on? He said not to rehash it and leave it alone. And you wonder why I got upset the other day. You have a lot of wonderful things you post and then you also come up with crap like this. Let it rest!

I don't see why you felt the need to interject yourself. I like Marlow and I'm sure we can work out our differences without your help/instigation. I'm going to repeat what I said earlier in this same thread:

I'm not going to get into a silly, juvenile pissing contest with you. If you want to play those kind of junior high school games, you'll have to find someone else to play with.

Grow up man, grow up. :(
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby cullman » Fri Nov 11, 2011 7:20 pm

balzonia wrote:...It's not an excuse. It's just understanding what might have made him behave in a way many of us think was inadequate.

If there is a lesson here, I'd say it is that people need to quit worshiping sport over humanity.

...also...

<< It is in the nature of childhood sexual abuse for victims, perpetrators, and witnesses to want to disassociate themselves from the act. That's why the law requires grown-ups to act like grown-ups. That's why Tim Curley, the Penn State athletic director, took a leave of absence and Gary Schultz, vice president for finance and business, retired last week after being charged with perjury and failure to report charges of serial abuse in athletic facilities on the campus of a publicly financed institution of higher learning. >>

excerpt from: http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/721 ... -grown-ups

cman
Last edited by cullman on Fri Nov 11, 2011 7:26 pm, edited 2 times in total.
cullman
 
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