Penn State/State Pen [split]


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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby jazzcyclist » Fri Nov 11, 2011 9:29 am

Conor Dary wrote:McQ could had at least screamed 'what the fuck are you doing!' But he did nothing to stop it...

Don't you think he wishes he would have stopped it? I'm sure he's not proud of the fact that he didn't act more heroically. As I said earlier, he may have simply froze.

We also don't know how long he watched them before he walked away. Did he stand there and watch for 10 seconds, 20 seconds, a minute? Or did he just get a quick glance before he walked away? I've accidentally walked in on friends and family in the bathroom, as I'm sure most of us have, and my reaction has always been to immediately close the door and walk away. Is that how he reacted? Eventually, we'll hear from McQueary himself, and then we'll be able to give this incident more context so we won't have to speculate.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Dutra » Fri Nov 11, 2011 9:31 am

jazzcyclist wrote:
lonewolf wrote:A grad assistant witnessed him sodomizing a ten year old boy. When the GA turned his back instead of interfering in the rape, he became guilt of complicity in a felony and revealed himself as a wuss. This guy is a college graduate and had to ask his daddy what to do???

No one truly knows how they will react when they are suddenly shocked or frightened. Remember on 9/11, after W found out that the country was under attack, he froze for seven minutes in that a Florida classroom before he was able to compose himself and act. Chesley Sullenberger said that he was barely able to control his bodily functions when he landed that plane in the Hudson a couple of years ago. McQueary probably thought he was going to find a football player banging a co-ed when he first heard the sounds coming from that shower. After all, he didn't hear anyone yelling or screaming for help. Perhaps he didn't even start to wonder how old the kid was until he had already walked away and was trying to get over the shock. His brain was probably on information overload just trying to process it all. I think what he did after he got over the shock (3 minutes? 10 minutes?) is a better measure of his character than what he did in those first few initial seconds.


Jazz....if he was able to compose himself enough to make a phone call to dad, why couldn't he compose himself enough to call the police?

I do agree with the overall thought that something like this can be shocking initially and the first instinct could be to leave but he did manage to make a phone call.....just to the wrong people....and it's certainly curious because it fits into an immediate thought process of protecting the school and himself.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby gh » Fri Nov 11, 2011 9:39 am

jazzcyclist wrote:...... After all, he didn't hear anyone yelling or screaming for help. .....


If this is true (and I have no idea if it is), it probably makes for a totally different reaction.

Not to get too bogged down in semantics, but while the age of the kid automatically makes it (as it should) "rape," there's a difference between a flat-out physical attack and something "consensual" (yes, I know that a kid that age can't really consent).

I'd like to think that if it had appeared to be a physical attack of a violent kind (on anybody of either sex of any age), McQ would have acted much differently. One's first reaction to coming upon anybody "having sex" is to turn as quickly as possible and get out of the way.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby jazzcyclist » Fri Nov 11, 2011 9:44 am

Marlow wrote:In the game of 'what would I have done in the same circumstance?' (which is so easy to play when NOT presented with the actual situation, and in 20/20 hindsight), I'm positive I (and most posters here) would not have left the scene of the crime, nor would we have allowed Sandusky NOT to be strenuously prosecuted ! :( That's my problem with all this.

You're not positive of anything and neither is anyone else on this board. The only thing we know for sure is what we hope we would do. I'll guarantee you that the day before this incident happened, if someone had presented McQueary with this hypothetical situation, there's no way that he would have believed that he would have handled it the way he did. Furthermore, a week ago, there's no way you could have convinced any of the posters on this board that Paterno would have handled things this way.

Yesterday, Lou Holtz said that having been a graduate assistant and having been a head coach at big-time football schools, he understood why McQueary thought he should take it up the chain of command rather than go to the police. He said that the relationship that graduate assistants have with the coaching staffs at these big time schools is such that most of them wouldn't even consider going to the police without checking with the head coach.

However, he did fault Paterno and said that it's not plausible that Paterno wouldn't ask McQueary to explain exactly what happened.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby jazzcyclist » Fri Nov 11, 2011 9:48 am

gh wrote:I'd like to think that if it had appeared to be a physical attack of a violent kind (on anybody of either sex of any age), McQ would have acted much differently. One's first reaction to coming upon anybody "having sex" is to turn as quickly as possible and get out of the way.

Bingo!
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby gh » Fri Nov 11, 2011 9:50 am

JoePa losing friends left and right. From the Washington Post:

<<Pennsylvania’s senators on Thursday announced that they are rescinding their support for the nomination of Joe Paterno for a Presidential Medal of Freedom, one day after the longtime Penn State football coach was fired by the school’s board of trustees in the wake of a child sex-abuse scandal that has shocked the country.

“In light of the recent events in State College, we are rescinding our support for the nomination of Joe Paterno for the Presidential Medal of Freedom,” Sens. Bob Casey (D-Pa.) and Pat Toomey (R-Pa.) said in a statement.

“We hope the proper authorities will move forward with their investigation without delay. Penn State is an important institution in our commonwealth. We should turn our attention to the victims of these atrocious crimes and ensure they get the help they need. Our hearts and prayers go out to them and their families.”..>>
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby DrJay » Fri Nov 11, 2011 10:16 am

Albus Dumbledore may not have been a Greek philosopher, but he said:

"We're in a time when we must choose between what is right and what is easy.”

Bottom line is a bunch of real men, not movie characters, in postions of responsibility and power, were worthless pieces of shit and chose easy over right. How many more little boys got buggered because no one did what was right?
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby mojo » Fri Nov 11, 2011 10:32 am

jazzcyclist wrote:
gh wrote:I'd like to think that if it had appeared to be a physical attack of a violent kind (on anybody of either sex of any age), McQ would have acted much differently. One's first reaction to coming upon anybody "having sex" is to turn as quickly as possible and get out of the way.

Bingo!



This is the most outrageous thing I have ever read on this board.

Anally raping a TEN YEAR OLD is violence to the tenth degree! This was not sex, it was was a brutal assault.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby gh » Fri Nov 11, 2011 10:36 am

I don't disagree. But what it was and what it may have appeared to be (on what would surely have been little more than a cursory glance) aren't necessarily the same thing. I understand your horror at the nature of the crime, but I don't think the "discovery" is as black and white as it's being painted.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Marlow » Fri Nov 11, 2011 10:48 am

jazzcyclist wrote:You're not positive of anything

Yeah, actually I am. There are many things I don't know about myself, but there are SOME things I do. We had a particularly nasty thread here once about what one would one do if he knew his buddy was cheating on his wife. I was in the very small minority who said I would tell him either he tell his wife or I would. This was not a hypothetical situation for me. It happened. The vast majority of men would disagree with me (and even vilify me), but I know what I can live with and what I can't.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Daisy » Fri Nov 11, 2011 10:54 am

gh wrote:I don't think the "discovery" is as black and white as it's being painted.

It was still a ten year old. And what he saw was enough to make him go to Paterno. How much closer to black do you need to be?

From what I can tell the whole culture of "What Happens in Vegas, Stays in Vegas" is rampant here. The more pertinent question with regard to McQueary is what were the hierarchal pressures that stopped him acting. And can they be removed (in all universities) so it does not happen again.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby gh » Fri Nov 11, 2011 11:01 am

Jon Stewart's take on the Penn State riots (done with a wry touch, but no, not a typical humor bit; bitingly serious), about 2 minutes long:

http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/thu-n ... d_facebook
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby mojo » Fri Nov 11, 2011 11:05 am

There is no way you would not know that was a child.

McQuery gets no passes from me at all.

He had plenty of time to do the right thing after he failed that child so miserably. He let the years go by and did not follow up. He put his career advancement ahead of the lives of children.

He is second on the list of villians in this case.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Conor Dary » Fri Nov 11, 2011 11:10 am

Again, this wasn't out of the blue. After 1998 it was obvious S. was up to no good with children, McQ must have known about this and at least had in the back of mind. And besides we are talking about a 10 year old!, and as mojo stated this was not sex, but a brutal act on someone who is what 5 feet tall and the villain is a former college football player? And McQ pretty much did the minimal....what if had been a 5 year old? Would he have stepped in then? Good grief, the more I think about it while writing this the more I want to throw up...

Anyways, McQ is not legally in trouble, but in the worse position possible...hated by the deranged Paterno crowd, and viewed by many as lacking in judgement....

Let us assume his coaching career is over...
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby gh » Fri Nov 11, 2011 11:16 am

mojo wrote:There is no way you would not know that was a child.

McQuery gets no passes from me at all.

He had plenty of time to do the right thing after he failed that child so miserably. He let the years go by and did not follow up. He put his career advancement ahead of the lives of children.

He is second on the list of villians in this case.


To be clear: I cut McQ no slack for what happened subsequently. Or, more properly, what didn't happen. He indeed deserves to swing in the wind.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby jazzcyclist » Fri Nov 11, 2011 11:24 am

Marlow wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote:You're not positive of anything

Yeah, actually I am. There are many things I don't know about myself, but there are SOME things I do. We had a particularly nasty thread here once about what one would one do if he knew his buddy was cheating on his wife. I was in the very small minority who said I would tell him either he tell his wife or I would. This was not a hypothetical situation for me. It happened. The vast majority of men would disagree with me (and even vilify me), but I know what I can live with and what I can't.

1) I remember that thread. There's absolutely no comparison between hearing about a friend screwing around on his wife and seeing your coach but-fucking a kid. I once found out about a friend screwing around and it didn't rattle me one bit. I'm pretty sure that I would have lost my composure at least for a few seconds if I saw what McQueary did.

2) When I said you're not positive how you would react, I was talking about the initial instant that you saw the deed while you're still in shock, not hours or days later after you had an opportunity to compose yourself and think about what you should do. Going to the police after the fact is one thing, but attacking the pedophile is another. I'm admit that it's a lot easier to predict what you would do after you've composed yourself. But here's something you also have to remember. The worst possible consequence of you ratting out your friend was that his marriage would be ruined. The likely consequence of McQueary going to the cops was that a patriarchal figure whom he had known since he was a kid would spend the rest of his life in prison.

By the way, IIRC you only threatened to rat out your friend, you didn't actually rat him out. Am I correct? Or did you actually tell his wife?
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby jazzcyclist » Fri Nov 11, 2011 11:34 am

mojo wrote:There is no way you would not know that was a child.

McQuery gets no passes from me at all.


You've totally missed the point that gh and I were getting at. If McQueary instinctively walked away as soon as he saw two people having sex, he could have been a good distance away from the scene by the time he got over the shock of what he saw, processed what he saw and composed himself. There was a janitor who saw Sandusky molesting a kid a few years earlier and he was so rattled that the first person who saw him thought he was having a heart attack.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby jazzcyclist » Fri Nov 11, 2011 11:36 am

gh wrote:To be clear: I cut McQ no slack for what happened subsequently. Or, more properly, what didn't happen. He indeed deserves to swing in the wind.

I agree 100%. The initial action should be judged differently than the subsequent action.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby mojo » Fri Nov 11, 2011 11:41 am

This isn't cutting him some slack:

I'd like to think that if it had appeared to be a physical attack of a violent kind (on anybody of either sex of any age), McQ would have acted much differently. One's first reaction to coming upon anybody "having sex" is to turn as quickly as possible and get out of the way.


Look I know you are as horrified by what happened as anyone but the statement above clearly tries to give McQueary an out. I give him zero.


I have spent all of my adult life caring for and working with ten year olds-they are small, helpless, vulnerable human beings. No one stood up for them-not a single adult. That scars one for life. I hope they are doing okay and have gotten the help they need.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Marlow » Fri Nov 11, 2011 11:42 am

jazzcyclist wrote:I remember that thread. There's absolutely no comparison between hearing about a friend screwing around on his wife and seeing your coach but-fucking a kid.

Wow - way to completely miss the point! My only point is that I do know what I would have done, because in a situation that most people CAN live with (not blow the whistle), I would have. The PSU situation is several magnitudes worse and you don't think I wouldn't have responded the same? And no, we're not going to re-hash the other thread, thank you.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby lonewolf » Fri Nov 11, 2011 12:19 pm

Enough rationalizing. No adult involved in this mess gets any slack. None. Zero. Zilch. Nada. Hang em now. Trial to follow. :x
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Marlow » Fri Nov 11, 2011 12:29 pm

lonewolf wrote:Enough rationalizing. No adult involved in this mess gets any slack. None. Zero. Zilch. Nada. Hang em now. Trial to follow. :x

Aye, and there's the rub. It is not without possibility that the entire coaching staff 'knew' and was tacitly part of the cover-up by NOT coming forward (to outside authority) with what they knew. And if they had, did not State College police and DAs already have access to this info from 2002? This is going to fall squarely on the entire community, because (and I paraphrase), "Paterno is God, and God has already been informed."
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby jazzcyclist » Fri Nov 11, 2011 12:49 pm

Marlow wrote:And no, we're not going to re-hash the other thread, thank you.

And so you didn't tell your friends wife? Why not? Don't you think she had a right to know? Talk about hypocrisy?
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby odelltrclan » Fri Nov 11, 2011 1:04 pm

jazzcyclist wrote:
Marlow wrote:And no, we're not going to re-hash the other thread, thank you.

And so you didn't tell your friends wife? Why not? Don't you think she had a right to know? Talk about hypocrisy?


Are you trying to egg him on? He said not to rehash it and leave it alone. And you wonder why I got upset the other day. You have a lot of wonderful things you post and then you also come up with crap like this. Let it rest!
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby jeremyp » Fri Nov 11, 2011 1:27 pm

With regard to MCQ. I think he reacted the way most people in his shoes would have done. He caved to authority. A famous Psych study (called the Milgram study http://rogerhollander.wordpress.com/200 ... periments/) done in the 60's&70's showed that the vast majority of people acquiesced to authority and went against their moral value system (in this case causing (what they thought was) ever increasing physical harm to another.)

MCQ told authority and feared the consequences of challenging it by going rogue. I don't judge him at all. He is us. History has endless examples of people doing the "wrong" thing when fearing the consequences of doing the "right" thing.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby guru » Fri Nov 11, 2011 1:33 pm

I agree with Jeremy. And it looks like McQueary has protection under Pennsylvania's Whistleblower Act

http://www.wcblegal.com/files/43_P_S____1421.pdf
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby SQUACKEE » Fri Nov 11, 2011 1:42 pm

I disagree, I could give Mcq a pass for awhile, stunned and dominated he didnt know what to do, but he had weeks and months and years to think about little boys being raped because HE DID NOTHING! and was ok with it. If it was not ok, he would have done something....IT WAS OK WITH HIM, do you get that?

We live in a world now where that is acceptable, unbelievable to me.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Friar » Fri Nov 11, 2011 2:01 pm

think the entire state should be fired,

The cover-up just wouldn't be possible here. Not a chance. Information moves quickly (true or false).
A major non-political figure was once forced to do a local live televised press conference just to deny a rather stunning rumor.
"Presidential Medal of Freedom,”

A few that have received it recently should be garroted, rather than have a medal put around their neck.
Others like Stan Musial, Bill Russell, Colin Powell? The highest civilian honor? Give me a break.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby mojo » Fri Nov 11, 2011 2:34 pm

SQUACKEE wrote:I disagree, I could give Mcq a pass for awhile, stunned and dominated he didnt know what to do, but he had weeks and months and years to think about little boys being raped because HE DID NOTHING! and was ok with it. If it was not ok, he would have done something....IT WAS OK WITH HIM, do you get that?

We live in a world now where that is acceptable, unbelievable to me.




Am I the only one who gives him ZERO? Oh I think lonewolf is with me.

Do you give a pass to any of the people who walked past a dying child in China (all over the news) and did not have the decency to help her? Would you give a pass to seeing a woman being raped in a park? What would you expect and want anyone to do if that was your child? No child gives consent and not screaming is because he was frightened and traumatized to death and just wanted it over. God it kills me to think about children going through this....

You may think this is overly dramatic but I actually think of all kids as mine-in the sense that I will do anything to protect them. I have spoken out when I have seen verbal abuse in public, I will help a parent who looks harried in a grocery store...and I sure as hell would have done whtaever it took to get that monster away from the child.

Okay I will step away from this thread....just upsets me too much (not you guys but Sandusky, McQueary etc.) May Sandusky rot in a jail for the rest of his life.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby cullman » Fri Nov 11, 2011 2:46 pm

mojo wrote:Am I the only one who gives him ZERO? Oh I think lonewolf is with me.

I also give him a ZERO. McQueary was more concerned about the Cult of college football. His obligation was to call the police immediately...not talk to his father...not Joe Paterno...

cman
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Daisy » Fri Nov 11, 2011 2:55 pm

cullman wrote:
mojo wrote:Am I the only one who gives him ZERO? Oh I think lonewolf is with me.

I also give him a ZERO. McQueary was more concerned about the Cult of college football. His obligation was to call the police immediately...not talk to his father...not Joe Paterno...

ZERO from me.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Pego » Fri Nov 11, 2011 3:03 pm

As far as I am concerned, the only villain in this drama is Sandusky. Everybody else is his victim. The kids, of course, are the biggest victims, but the coaches were betrayed by him. The amount of vitriol here should be aimed at Sandusky only. He is the only rapist here.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Dutra » Fri Nov 11, 2011 3:05 pm

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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Daisy » Fri Nov 11, 2011 3:10 pm

Pego wrote:Everybody else is his victim.

A great reason to get rid of these football programs. Far too many victims. I'd be happy to see NCAA split from universities and let them start running farm teams as a business. The athletics programs really distract from the primary mission. Is there any other country that has universities running farm teams for professional teams?
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Dutra » Fri Nov 11, 2011 3:21 pm

Pego wrote:As far as I am concerned, the only villain in this drama is Sandusky. Everybody else is his victim. The kids, of course, are the biggest victims, but the coaches were betrayed by him. The amount of vitriol here should be aimed at Sandusky only. He is the only rapist here.


Would you feel the same if it was anyone (not necessarily a child) being stabbed to death in the shower?
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby odelltrclan » Fri Nov 11, 2011 3:22 pm

Pego wrote:As far as I am concerned, the only villain in this drama is Sandusky. Everybody else is his victim. The kids, of course, are the biggest victims, but the coaches were betrayed by him. The amount of vitriol here should be aimed at Sandusky only. He is the only rapist here.


Best point made all day !!!!!!!!!!!
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby Pego » Fri Nov 11, 2011 3:29 pm

Dutra wrote:
Pego wrote:As far as I am concerned, the only villain in this drama is Sandusky. Everybody else is his victim. The kids, of course, are the biggest victims, but the coaches were betrayed by him. The amount of vitriol here should be aimed at Sandusky only. He is the only rapist here.


Would you feel the same if it was anyone (not necessarily a child) being stabbed to death in the shower?


What are you asking? Feeling about what?
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby guru » Fri Nov 11, 2011 3:56 pm

Dutra wrote:
Pego wrote:As far as I am concerned, the only villain in this drama is Sandusky. Everybody else is his victim. The kids, of course, are the biggest victims, but the coaches were betrayed by him. The amount of vitriol here should be aimed at Sandusky only. He is the only rapist here.


Would you feel the same if it was anyone (not necessarily a child) being stabbed to death in the shower?



Funny you should mention that...

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/08100/871627-143.stm


According to the police report, PSU assistant coaches Mike McQueary, Dick Anderson and Kermit Buggs restrained Bell and took a 12-inch knife from his hand after Bell and Still began arguing over Still's new cell phone case.

Police said Still accused Bell of stealing the case. Bell denied the accusations, police said. At one point, the police report stated, Still said Bell told him, "Come get the case, and I am going to stab you," and Bell later shouted at Still, "I have more knives and a gun up here!"
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby mojo » Fri Nov 11, 2011 4:11 pm

Pego wrote:As far as I am concerned, the only villain in this drama is Sandusky. Everybody else is his victim. The kids, of course, are the biggest victims, but the coaches were betrayed by him. The amount of vitriol here should be aimed at Sandusky only. He is the only rapist here.



I rarely disagree with you pego but on this we are way apart.
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Re: Penn State/State Pen [split]

Postby 26mi235 » Fri Nov 11, 2011 4:25 pm

It is my impression that when McQueary saw them they saw him, and when they did the assault ended. Thus, is going away did not allow the attack to continue.


A comment by someone involved now in the Penn State investigation is the MQ's situation is 'complicated'. Paraphrasing 'he is a witness, which makes him different from the others'. Also, there is a wistleblower issue given that he reported the incident and he is an employee of a state entity.


I too have trouble with the amount of comment on the various parties. As I see it

Sandusky >> AD and VP >? Paterno > (and maybe >>) McQueary. Remember, McQueary reported it to the head of campus police, apparently in graphic detail greatly different than what the AD and VP tesitfied to and I think what Paterno testified to.


There is an interesting piece on the Governor. He started this case as the Atty General because the local AD contacted them and indicated that they had a conflict of intesest. He left the case when he became governor and was not further informed of it other then 'it is coming along'. It was his specific knowledge that made in very impatient with the school. He made it known that they should be 'very aggressive' in handling the case, and he was not getting that aggressive handling from the President (Spanier) or Paterno. He let it be known that he was going to be attending the Board meeting (his first such attendance). At the same time, he could not, directly or indirectly, divulge things from the Grand Jury.

Apparently the release of the report was accident; it was filed under seal but there was some (computer) glitch that led to it being posted to the web.
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