Columnist looks at "trolls" who are anti-Armstrong

[kreynolds]

The walls are closing in...

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/05/sport ... ml?_r=2&hp

And now it looks like he's....

http://www.theonion.com/articles/lance- ... but,17973/

[jazzcyclist]

And now it looks like he's....

http://www.theonion.com/articles/lance- ... but,17973/

Funny stuff!

[guru]

Funny stuff!

Say what you will about Armstrong - the guy makes a great commercial.


From his Livestrong ads for Dick's SG a few years ago lol -

"I've got this watch"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-hi2sc74ySA

"Like a blacksmith to the forge"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVCeUw9kj2I

[jazzcyclist]

Now the Feds are talking to the Andreus.

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/more_ ... _wife.html

[jazzcyclist]

Now the G-Men have traveled to Paris to build their case against Armstrong.

http://www.universalsports.com/news/art ... 01176.html

I've come to the conclusion that USADA, WADA and all the other drug enforcement agencies of the various sports governing bodies are totally useless compared to what the FBI and its European counterparts do. Without the American and European government law enforcement agencies, hardly any of the illegal gamblers and dopers in baseball, basketball, football, soccer, track and field or cycling would have never been exposed. Even in college football, if Cam Newton is found out to have been bought and paid for by Auburn, we'll have the FBI to thank for it, since as we speak, they are conducting interviews of the various Mississippi State alumni, boosters and coaches who are involved in the allegations.

[Conor Dary]

Now the G-Men have traveled to Paris to build their case against Armstrong.


I've come to the conclusion that USADA, WADA and all the other drug enforcement agencies of the various sports governing bodies are totally useless compared to what the FBI and its European counterparts do. Without the American and European government law enforcement agencies, hardly any of the illegal gamblers and dopers in baseball, basketball, football, soccer, track and field or cycling would have never been exposed. Even in college football, if Cam Newton is found out to have been bought and paid for by Auburn, we'll have the FBI to thank for it, since as we speak, they are conducting interviews of the various Mississippi State alumni, boosters and coaches who are involved in the allegations.

That sure sounds swell. Good to hear they are going after the important stuff.

'In the wake of 9/11, Saudi authorities came under criticism in the U.S. for sluggishness in investigating the attacks, in which 15 of the 19 hijackers were Saudi citizens. Now it appears that the U.S. bears some responsibility for the slackness with which leads were pursued. According to several former employees of the U.S. embassy in Riyadh, the FBI legal attaché's office housed within the embassy was often in disarray during the months that followed 9/11. When an FBI supervisor arrived to clean up the mess, she found a mountain of paper and, for security reasons, ordered wholesale shredding that resulted in the destruction of unprocessed documents relating to the 9/11 investigations. A letter obtained by Time confirms that the Senate Judiciary Committee is investigating the matter.'

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/artic ... 48,00.html

And this:

9/11 Congressional Report Faults F.B.I.-C.I.A. Lapses
By DAVID JOHNSTON
Published: July 24, 2003

WASHINGTON, July 23 — The Sept. 11 attacks were preventable, but the plot went undetected because of communications lapses between the F.B.I. and C.I.A., which failed to share intelligence related to two hijackers, a Congressional report to be released on Thursday says.

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/07/24/us/9- ... apses.html

[guru]

That sure sounds swell. Good to hear they are going after the important stuff.

You do understand the FBI and CIA have nothing to do with the Armstrong investigation?

[jazzcyclist]

That sure sounds swell. Good to hear they are going after the important stuff.

You do understand the FBI and CIA have nothing to do with the Armstrong investigation?

From the article linked in my previous post:

The U.S. probe is being conducted by U.S. Food and Drug Administration Agent Jeff Novitzky and others. Approached in the lobby of his hotel, Novitzky declined comment. The French official said he believed the American delegation also included U.S. federal prosecutor Doug Miller and U.S. Anti-Doping Agency CEO Travis Tygart.

[guru]

Not referring to you jc.

[Conor Dary]

That sure sounds swell. Good to hear they are going after the important stuff.

You do understand the FBI and CIA have nothing to do with the Armstrong investigation?

I am just quoting from your thread. Frankly the whole thing bores me.

'I've come to the conclusion that USADA, WADA and all the other drug enforcement agencies of the various sports governing bodies are totally useless compared to what the FBI and its European counterparts do. Without the American and European government law enforcement agencies, hardly any of the illegal gamblers and dopers in baseball, basketball, football, soccer, track and field or cycling would have never been exposed. Even in college football, if Cam Newton is found out to have been bought and paid for by Auburn, we'll have the FBI to thank for it, since as we speak, they are conducting interviews of the various Mississippi State alumni, boosters and coaches who are involved in the allegations."

[guru]

That sure sounds swell. Good to hear they are going after the important stuff.

You do understand the FBI and CIA have nothing to do with the Armstrong investigation?

I am just quoting from your thread. Frankly the whole thing bores me.

'I've come to the conclusion that USADA, WADA and all the other drug enforcement agencies of the various sports governing bodies are totally useless compared to what the FBI and its European counterparts do. Without the American and European government law enforcement agencies, hardly any of the illegal gamblers and dopers in baseball, basketball, football, soccer, track and field or cycling would have never been exposed. Even in college football, if Cam Newton is found out to have been bought and paid for by Auburn, we'll have the FBI to thank for it, since as we speak, they are conducting interviews of the various Mississippi State alumni, boosters and coaches who are involved in the allegations."

That's not mine.

Back to the question, in reference to you dragging 9/11 into the conversation. Do you or do you not know the FBI and CIA are not involved in the Armstrong investigation?

[jazzcyclist]

For the record, I'm ambivalent on whether the G-Men should be involved in insuring fair play in professional and big-time college sports. My main point is that the governing bodies of these various sports lack the competency, and in some cases, lack the will, to catch and punish the rule breakers in their sports. The G-Men are much better at it than they are.

For example, Mississippi State reported Cecil Newton's pay-for-play shakedown to the SEC back in January, but now we find out that the SEC just sat on it. Two weeks ago when Cam's dirty laundry started leaking to the media (probably from a miffed Mississippi State booster), and questions started being asked about where the investigation was going, the SEC honchos said that they don't consider it their job to enforce NCAA rules. Of course the media attention forced the NCAA to get involved, but the investigation was still moving at a snail's pace until the FBI started conducting interviews today, and now folks are singing like canaries.

[guru]

Since the FDA is handling the PED investigations, I'm fine with it. That's their job.

As for Newton, you couldn't be more right about FBI involvement getting the moss off the stone. I was stunned Auburn played Newton against Georgia after his father admitted to NCAA investigators last week that he did indeed seek financial compensation from Miss State for Cam's services(while saying Cam didn't know a thing LOL!). If that's true it doesn't matter if Cam "knew" or not, and his days are numbered.

[Conor Dary]

That sure sounds swell. Good to hear they are going after the important stuff.

You do understand the FBI and CIA have nothing to do with the Armstrong investigation?

Look fool, obviously the CIA is not involved. And who cares about the FBI. It wouldn't surprise me that they were involved. After all going after low hanging fruit is their specialty.

[guru]

Look fool...

You lose.

[jazzcyclist]

Look fool...

You lose.

Can't we all get along?

[guru]

That sure sounds swell. Good to hear they are going after the important stuff.

You do understand the FBI and CIA have nothing to do with the Armstrong investigation?

...obviously the CIA is not involved. And who cares about the FBI. .

So, what's your point?

And what would you have the FDA investigate, if not illegal drug use/trafficking?

[jazzcyclist]

After all going after low hanging fruit is their specialty.

So true! However, I think their real specialty is "shiny", low-hanging fruit. I doubt that the FBI would be involved if Cam Newton was the third-string tight end for Indiana.

[guru]

I doubt that the FBI would be involved if Cam Newton was the third-string tight end for Indiana.

Of course, neither would six-figure pay to play demands.

[jazzcyclist]

I doubt that the FBI would be involved if Cam Newton was the third-string tight end for Indiana.

Of course, neither would six-figure pay to play demands.

That's true, but it's Newton's fame and Auburn's success got the G-Men's attention, not his six-figure price tag. If Newton hadn't panned out at Auburn, but instead was sitting on the bench as a third-string quarterback on a 5-6 Auburn team, instead of an 11-0 team, I don't think the G-Men would be interested, despite the shakedown attempt by his father.

[guru]

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/m ... ?eref=sihp


Perhaps the most disturbing, and disappointing, revelation - Dr. Don Catlin "lost" five questionable test results, and somehow confirmation on two other positives was "unsuccessful".

In 1999, USA Cycling sent a formal request to Catlin for past test results -- specifically, testosterone-epitestosterone ratios -- for a cyclist identified only by his drug-testing code numbers. A source with knowledge of the request says that the cyclist was Armstrong. In a letter responding to those requests, Catlin informed USA Cycling that his lab could not recover five of the cyclist's test results. Of the results that could be found, "three stand out," SI reports: "a 9.0-to-1 ratio from a sample collected on June 23, 1993; a 7.6-to-1 from July 7, 1994; and a 6.5-to-1 from June 4, 1996. Most people have a ratio of 1-to-1. Prior to 2005, any ratio above 6.0-to-1 was considered abnormally high and evidence of doping; in 2005 that ratio was lowered to 4.0-to-1."

While he didn't address the 6.5-to-1 result, Catlin wrote that he had attempted confirmation (a required step) on the 9.0-to-1 and 7.6-to-1 samples, and "in both cases the confirmation was unsuccessful and the samples were reported negative." (Armstrong says he has never taken performance-enhancing drugs and has never been informed that he tested positive.)

[tandfman]

The latest Armstrong news is in a story linked in the headline section of the home page. Ex-Olympic champ admits doping and says he saw Armstrong doing it.

[PCSExponent]

Armstrong posted this to his FB wall yesterday night:

20+ year career. 500 drug controls worldwide, in and out of competition. Never a failed test. I rest my case.

Quite interesting to see the ignorant masses (who are 99.9% his fans, of course) gulping it up. Marion Jones never failed a drug test - and my guess her number was in the four digits. Ditto Zhanna Block, Stephanie Graf and countless others.

[Ref]

Armstrong posted this to his FB wall yesterday night:

20+ year career. 500 drug controls worldwide, in and out of competition. Never a failed test. I rest my case.

Quite interesting to see the ignorant masses (who are 99.9% his fans, of course) gulping it up. Marion Jones never failed a drug test - and my guess her number was in the four digits. Ditto Zhanna Block, Stephanie Graf and countless others.

I thought the same thing. LA's statement doesn't address anything that has been levelled against him and is clearly intended to win the public/media (i.e. ignorant of the non-link between passing tests and not doping) battle.

Amongst those who know the sports of cycling or athletics this argument holds absolutely no water. We are well used to big dopers passing tests over an extended period of time.

To me, the questions of Armstrong's usage and Contador's usage are not even slightly debatable.

To make it crystal clear, that's without saying whether or not I believe them to be dopers - just that I personally have no doubt on the matter.

[Conor Dary]

Armstrong posted this to his FB wall yesterday night:

20+ year career. 500 drug controls worldwide, in and out of competition. Never a failed test. I rest my case.

Quite interesting to see the ignorant masses (who are 99.9% his fans, of course) gulping it up. Marion Jones never failed a drug test - and my guess her number was in the four digits. Ditto Zhanna Block, [name excised] and countless others.

It is not ignorance, but rather nobody cares. And rightfully so.

[bambam]

George Hincapie coming forward now and saying he and Armstrong both used PEDs. Interesting since he is still competing - rode in the Tour of California individual time trial today - excuse me, the Amgen Tour of California.

[Pego]

Without hematocrit enhancers they are non-competitive, so they all must do it. It's as simple as that. Legalize autotransfusion and the need for EPO would be essentially eliminated.

[jhc68]

Well, it is easy to fault the ignorant masses who assume that clean tests mean clean athletes. Of course the alternative is to believe that we spend millions of dollars and countless hours of effort to enforce testing protocols that are absolutely worthless.

If the highest profile athletes in the world pass every test but are shown by credilble eye-witness testimony to have used been juiced, then we must hold the jaundiced view that every dominant athlete - the ones who achieve mind-boggling results - in almost every sport for the past couple of generations has likely used PEDs. It is simply the reality of sport, and outrage over it is not going to change a thing.

[jazzcyclist]

It looks like Hincapie confessed under the same circumstances under which Andreu confessed - that is he was put under oath by federal investigators. The list of Lance's lieutenants who have either come out or been caught, continues to grow - George Hincapie, Tyler Hamilton, Floyd Landis, Frankie Andreu, Roberto Heras, Manuel Beltran. Who's next?

[TrainerPhil]

It looks like Hincapie confessed under the same circumstances under which Andreu confessed - that is he was put under oath by federal investigators. The list of Lance's lieutenants who have either come out or been caught, continues to grow - George Hincapie, Tyler Hamilton, Floyd Landis, Frankie Andreu, Roberto Heras, Manuel Beltran. Who's next?

Lance maybe? Hopefully?

Lance supporters have used 2 arguments to defend the 7-time tour winner 1) He was one of the most tested athletes in history and never tested positive, and 2) The people accusing him are not credible therefor they cannot be trusted.

The first argument demonstrates ignorance. As some of you have already said, Marion Jones never tested positive. Neither did Steffi Graf. Both admitted to drug use. Drug cheats are always 10 steps ahead of the drug tests and drug testers. Truth be told, those who get caught are those who get careless.

The second argument makes sense when you have 1 or 2 guys accusing someone of wrong doing. But now that number is well into the double digits and guess what? The latest report has a guy Lance considered "his brother," long-time teammate George Hincapie, who I believe never tested positive either, testified that he and Lance both did PEDs together.

I tell you why I care. I still see young athletes who I work with wear the Livestrong wrist band. I work at a school where the director actually purchased a signed lance armstrong cyclying uniform, framed it and has it hanging in the main office. He still uses it as "motivation" for the kids. "See what you can accomplish when you work hard" stuff. Armstrong is a man who has built his life and career on a lie.

[Conor Dary]

Lance maybe? Hopefully?

Lance supporters have used 2 arguments to defend the 7-time tour winner...

Repeat Lance supporters don't care.

When it comes to drugs and professional sports I am a 100% Libertarian. Keep the Government out!

I believe in testing which means that there is a certain level that you can't get away with. But the sport has changed and testing is far more rigorous than before.

But it is amazing how there is zero context in all this nonsense.

Anyone who has followed cycling like I have knew that for decades the sport was a cesspool of drugs. So I would be surprised if all these guys including Armstrong were not on something long ago. But who cares? That was up to the cyclists involved and if you notice all these confessions come from cyclists who admit they were on dope. If creeps like Hamilton and Floyd thought it was so awful why didn't they say something then? But they got caught and tough shit. No one wanted them anymore and they are bitter.

[jazzcyclist]

If creeps like Hamilton and Floyd thought it was so awful why didn't they say something then? But they got caught and tough shit. No one wanted them anymore and they are bitter.

I wouldn't put Hamilton in the same boat with Landis. Like Hincapie and Andreu, Hamilton was put under oath by the Feds. The only difference is that Hamilton is went on 60 Minutes to repeat what he told the Feds, while Hincapie and Andreu have said "no comment" to any reporter who asked them about the matter. Landis, on the other hand, is a slimy rat who started singing like a canary long before the Feds approached him.

[Conor Dary]

I wouldn't put Hamilton in the same boat with Landis. Like Hincapie and Andreu, Hamilton was put under oath by the Feds. The only difference is that Hamilton is went on 60 Minutes to repeat what he told the Feds, while Hincapie and Andreu have said "no comment" to any reporter who asked them about the matter. Landis, on the other hand, is a slimy rat who started singing like a canary long before the Feds approached him.

Yea, jazz I think you are right. Landis is at a whole different level of sliminess.

Hamilton going on the Hour Show, didn't win any friends with the Feds.

[26mi235]

If creeps like Hamilton and Floyd thought it was so awful why didn't they say something then? But they got caught and tough shit. No one wanted them anymore and they are bitter.

I wouldn't put Hamilton in the same boat with Landis. Like Hincapie and Andreu, Hamilton was put under oath by the Feds. The only difference is that Hamilton is went on 60 Minutes to repeat what he told the Feds, while Hincapie and Andreu have said "no comment" to any reporter who asked them about the matter. Landis, on the other hand, is a slimy rat who started singing like a canary long before the Feds approached him.

Hamilton was in an entirely different boat, and one that he sunk in terms of credibility; he only kept the Gold on a technicality and when they nabbed him it was a new method used for the first time on several riders from the team.

Hincapie is a different kettle of fish even compared to Andreu, who had some issues (driven by his wife). I have increased the likelihood of LA being nabbed from moderate to high.

[jazzcyclist]

Hincapie is a different kettle of fish even compared to Andreu, who had some issues (driven by his wife). I have increased the likelihood of LA being nabbed from moderate to high.

I don't see how Andreu and Hincapie are any different. Both of them vehemently defended Armstrong until they were put under oath and both of them have refused to discuss their testimony with reporters. The fact that Betsy Andreu and Lance didn't get along on a personal level is immaterial IMO. Andreu never flunked a drug test, and he and Armstrong never had a falling out.