Columnist looks at "trolls" who are anti-Armstrong


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Re: Columnist looks at "trolls" who are anti-Armstrong

Postby guru » Thu Aug 05, 2010 5:54 am

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Re: Columnist looks at "trolls" who are anti-Armstrong

Postby jazzcyclist » Thu Aug 05, 2010 6:20 am

This morning, ESPN's Mike & Mike both concluded that even if the G-men do get Armstrong, most Americans will give him a pass because he's in a sport that most Americans don't care about. However, if that was true, Marion Jones would have also gotten a pass. If Lance gets a pass, I think it will be partly because of the good will he has built up as the point man in the global fight against cancer and partly because of the good ole fashion Francophobia that many Americans wear as a badge of honor.
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Re: Columnist looks at "trolls" who are anti-Armstrong

Postby Dutra » Thu Aug 05, 2010 8:21 am

jazzcyclist wrote:This morning, ESPN's Mike & Mike both concluded that even if the G-men do get Armstrong, most Americans will give him a pass because he's in a sport that most Americans don't care about. However, if that was true, Marion Jones would have also gotten a pass. If Lance gets a pass, I think it will be partly because of the good will he has built up as the point man in the global fight against cancer and partly because of the good ole fashion Francophobia that many Americans wear as a badge of honor.


I had a conversation with a cyclist who has a cursory interest in distance running...pretty much the exact opposite of me...the other day and he was very very staunch in his defense of Lance. He initially blamed everyone for Lance's potential issues including the French and the other riders but by the time we got to the end of the conversation I had him at least admitting to me that there's a real good chance that Lance used PEDs during his riding career.

However, he then allowed for the fact that Lance has probably done more good than bad for the world even if he did use PEDs.
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Re: Columnist looks at "trolls" who are anti-Armstrong

Postby Conor Dary » Thu Aug 05, 2010 9:07 am

jazzcyclist wrote:This morning, ESPN's Mike & Mike both concluded that even if the G-men do get Armstrong, most Americans will give him a pass because he's in a sport that most Americans don't care about. However, if that was true, Marion Jones would have also gotten a pass. If Lance gets a pass, I think it will be partly because of the good will he has built up as the point man in the global fight against cancer and partly because of the good ole fashion Francophobia that many Americans wear as a badge of honor.


Remember there was a little more to the Jones case than just drugs.

"Co-conspirators orchestrated a scheme to defraud numerous banks out of millions of dollars through, among other means, the deposit of stolen, altered and counterfeit checks into various bank accounts they controlled. The investigation has resulted in the convictions, in this and related cases, of more than 20 individuals, including Montgomery (with whom Jones-Thompson had a romantic relationship), Riddick (who was Jones-Thompson and Montgomery's former coach) and Charles Wells, the former sports agent for Jones-Thompson and Montgomery."

http://www.ice.gov/pi/news/newsreleases ... ewyork.htm

Personally I don't think the public cares that much about the whole drug thing, whether it is in baseball players, track stars or cyclists. The whole false outrage is driven by radio and tv jocks who just crave controversy.
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Re: Columnist looks at "trolls" who are anti-Armstrong

Postby guru » Thu Aug 05, 2010 9:36 am

Conor Dary wrote:Remember there was a little more to the Jones case than just drugs.



As there is with Armstrong.
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Re: Columnist looks at "trolls" who are anti-Armstrong

Postby Conor Dary » Thu Aug 05, 2010 10:07 am

guru wrote:
Conor Dary wrote:Remember there was a little more to the Jones case than just drugs.



As there is with Armstrong.


What exactly, except for, possibly, selling a few bikes and parts? And even if true who did it.

But some folks just love a controversy.
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Re: Columnist looks at "trolls" who are anti-Armstrong

Postby jazzcyclist » Thu Aug 05, 2010 10:43 am

I don't put Armstrong in the same boat with Marion Jones, since everything that he's accused of seems to have been done for the purpose of getting a competitive advantage in his sport. Jones's check fraud scheme seems to have been done for the purpose of providing a major source of income, not to enhance her performce on the track. Furthermore, unlike the banks that filed charges against Jones and her cohorts, Trek seems to have no interest in going after Armstrong for the illegal sale of its bicycles.

I believe that in the long run, the best thing Armstrong can do is take a page out of the Andy Pettitte playbook and make the whole thing go away, but my guess is that his ego and short-term vision will lead him to follow the playbook of his fellow Texan Roger Clemens.
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Re: Columnist looks at "trolls" who are anti-Armstrong

Postby catson52 » Thu Aug 05, 2010 10:54 am

Is it too naive to want all "drug" users (cheaters) to be outed and their names removed from the record books? Obviously there are a large number that have not been "caught" and probably never will. But Armstrong's case has been suspected ("known") for many years, as with others like Marion Jones, Barry Bonds, to name just a few.
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Re: Columnist looks at "trolls" who are anti-Armstrong

Postby guru » Thu Aug 05, 2010 11:30 am

Conor Dary wrote:
guru wrote:
Conor Dary wrote:Remember there was a little more to the Jones case than just drugs.



As there is with Armstrong.


What exactly, except for, possibly, selling a few bikes and parts?



Which was used to fund the doping program of the US Postal team.


And even if true who did it.



That is why we have an investigation.
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Re: Columnist looks at "trolls" who are anti-Armstrong

Postby guru » Thu Aug 05, 2010 11:34 am

jazzcyclist wrote:IFurthermore, unlike the banks that filed charges against Jones and her cohorts, Trek seems to have no interest in going after Armstrong for the illegal sale of its bicycles.


lol, and why is that? :roll:

This isn't about Trek. It's about using funds from an independant agency of the US government(USPS) to fund illegal activities.
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Re: Columnist looks at "trolls" who are anti-Armstrong

Postby 26mi235 » Thu Aug 05, 2010 11:49 am

And by winning more they badly hurt the image of the US Postal Service?
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Re: Columnist looks at "trolls" who are anti-Armstrong

Postby jazzcyclist » Thu Aug 05, 2010 11:57 am

guru wrote:This isn't about Trek. It's about using funds from an independant agency of the US government(USPS) to fund illegal activities.

I didn't know that Trek was part of a government agency, I thought they were a private entity that donated bikes to U.S. Postal. Are you saying that those bikes became government property after Trek donated them? If the bikes had not been sold, how would the government's bottom line have been any different?
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Re: Columnist looks at "trolls" who are anti-Armstrong

Postby jazzcyclist » Thu Aug 05, 2010 12:05 pm

catson52 wrote:Is it too naive to want all "drug" users (cheaters) to be outed and their names removed from the record books? Obviously there are a large number that have not been "caught" and probably never will. But Armstrong's case has been suspected ("known") for many years, as with others like Marion Jones, Barry Bonds, to name just a few.

I don't lump Bonds in with Armstrong and Jones for two reasons:

    1) Unlike Jones, Bonds has never been sanctioned by his sport's governing body or convicted in a court of law for using PED's.
    2) Unlike Jones and Armstrong, Bonds' sport had no drug testing/enforcement program at the time he is alleged to have used PED's, and without rules, there can be no cheating.
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Re: Columnist looks at "trolls" who are anti-Armstrong

Postby unclezadok » Thu Aug 05, 2010 12:54 pm

Today they are talking about a "former teammate" of Armstrong's who says blah blah blah whatever. I assume the former teammate is, again, Landis.
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Re: Columnist looks at "trolls" who are anti-Armstrong

Postby guru » Thu Aug 05, 2010 1:16 pm

unclezadok wrote:Today they are talking about a "former teammate" of Armstrong's who says blah blah blah whatever. I assume the former teammate is, again, Landis.



Not Landis.

From New York Times story link several posts up -


The rider, who has never tested positive for performance-enhancing drugs or methods, asked that his name not be used because investigators advised him not to speak publicly about the information he provided. He has not been called before the grand jury that has been convened in Los Angeles to investigate the case.

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Re: Columnist looks at "trolls" who are anti-Armstrong

Postby jazzcyclist » Fri Aug 06, 2010 4:58 am

This morning while discussing the Lance Armstrong saga, Mike Grolick admitted using steroids when he played in the NFL, but of course he qualified his drug use by adding that he "only did it to recover from an injury". It amazes me at how these sports hypocrites believe they can absolve themselves of rules violations and law breaking if they have good enough excuses. It's like a bank robber telling a judge that he only did it because he had been laid off from his job and he was trying to prevent his house from being foreclosed upon. :roll:
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Re: Columnist looks at "trolls" who are anti-Armstrong

Postby Pego » Fri Aug 06, 2010 8:29 am

jazzcyclist wrote:It's like a bank robber telling a judge that he only did it because he had been laid off from his job and he was trying to prevent his house from being foreclosed upon.


What about a guy that killed both of his parents and now is begging mercy from the court, because he is an orphan :wink: ?
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Re: Columnist looks at "trolls" who are anti-Armstrong

Postby lonewolf » Fri Aug 06, 2010 8:34 am

Pego wrote:[What about a guy that killed both of his parents and now is begging mercy from the court, because he is an orphan :wink: ?

Isn't that the definitive example of "chutzpah"?
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Re: Columnist looks at "trolls" who are anti-Armstrong

Postby Marlow » Sun Aug 29, 2010 12:07 pm

Saw this sign today and immediately thought of Lance

Image
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Re: Columnist looks at "trolls" who are anti-Armstrong

Postby 26mi235 » Sun Aug 29, 2010 1:29 pm

He was in town this weekend but I did not join the throng to see him.
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Re: Columnist looks at "trolls" who are anti-Armstrong

Postby kreynolds » Mon Aug 30, 2010 9:23 pm

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Re: Columnist looks at "trolls" who are anti-Armstrong

Postby jazzcyclist » Tue Aug 31, 2010 5:40 am

kreynolds wrote:And now it looks like he's....

http://www.theonion.com/articles/lance- ... but,17973/


Funny stuff! :lol:
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Re: Columnist looks at "trolls" who are anti-Armstrong

Postby guru » Tue Aug 31, 2010 5:52 am

jazzcyclist wrote:Funny stuff! :lol:



Say what you will about Armstrong - the guy makes a great commercial.


From his Livestrong ads for Dick's SG a few years ago lol -

"I've got this watch"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-hi2sc74ySA

"Like a blacksmith to the forge"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVCeUw9kj2I
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Re: Columnist looks at "trolls" who are anti-Armstrong

Postby jazzcyclist » Thu Sep 02, 2010 12:54 pm

Now the Feds are talking to the Andreus.

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/more_ ... _wife.html
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Re: Columnist looks at "trolls" who are anti-Armstrong

Postby jazzcyclist » Tue Nov 16, 2010 7:46 am

Now the G-Men have traveled to Paris to build their case against Armstrong.

http://www.universalsports.com/news/art ... 01176.html

I've come to the conclusion that USADA, WADA and all the other drug enforcement agencies of the various sports governing bodies are totally useless compared to what the FBI and its European counterparts do. Without the American and European government law enforcement agencies, hardly any of the illegal gamblers and dopers in baseball, basketball, football, soccer, track and field or cycling would have never been exposed. Even in college football, if Cam Newton is found out to have been bought and paid for by Auburn, we'll have the FBI to thank for it, since as we speak, they are conducting interviews of the various Mississippi State alumni, boosters and coaches who are involved in the allegations.
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Re: Columnist looks at "trolls" who are anti-Armstrong

Postby Conor Dary » Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:50 am

jazzcyclist wrote:Now the G-Men have traveled to Paris to build their case against Armstrong.


I've come to the conclusion that USADA, WADA and all the other drug enforcement agencies of the various sports governing bodies are totally useless compared to what the FBI and its European counterparts do. Without the American and European government law enforcement agencies, hardly any of the illegal gamblers and dopers in baseball, basketball, football, soccer, track and field or cycling would have never been exposed. Even in college football, if Cam Newton is found out to have been bought and paid for by Auburn, we'll have the FBI to thank for it, since as we speak, they are conducting interviews of the various Mississippi State alumni, boosters and coaches who are involved in the allegations.


That sure sounds swell. Good to hear they are going after the important stuff.

'In the wake of 9/11, Saudi authorities came under criticism in the U.S. for sluggishness in investigating the attacks, in which 15 of the 19 hijackers were Saudi citizens. Now it appears that the U.S. bears some responsibility for the slackness with which leads were pursued. According to several former employees of the U.S. embassy in Riyadh, the FBI legal attaché's office housed within the embassy was often in disarray during the months that followed 9/11. When an FBI supervisor arrived to clean up the mess, she found a mountain of paper and, for security reasons, ordered wholesale shredding that resulted in the destruction of unprocessed documents relating to the 9/11 investigations. A letter obtained by Time confirms that the Senate Judiciary Committee is investigating the matter.'

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/artic ... 48,00.html

And this:

9/11 Congressional Report Faults F.B.I.-C.I.A. Lapses
By DAVID JOHNSTON
Published: July 24, 2003

WASHINGTON, July 23 — The Sept. 11 attacks were preventable, but the plot went undetected because of communications lapses between the F.B.I. and C.I.A., which failed to share intelligence related to two hijackers, a Congressional report to be released on Thursday says.

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/07/24/us/9- ... apses.html
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Re: Columnist looks at "trolls" who are anti-Armstrong

Postby guru » Tue Nov 16, 2010 2:13 pm

Conor Dary wrote:That sure sounds swell. Good to hear they are going after the important stuff.



You do understand the FBI and CIA have nothing to do with the Armstrong investigation?
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Re: Columnist looks at "trolls" who are anti-Armstrong

Postby jazzcyclist » Tue Nov 16, 2010 4:06 pm

guru wrote:
Conor Dary wrote:That sure sounds swell. Good to hear they are going after the important stuff.



You do understand the FBI and CIA have nothing to do with the Armstrong investigation?

From the article linked in my previous post:
The U.S. probe is being conducted by U.S. Food and Drug Administration Agent Jeff Novitzky and others. Approached in the lobby of his hotel, Novitzky declined comment. The French official said he believed the American delegation also included U.S. federal prosecutor Doug Miller and U.S. Anti-Doping Agency CEO Travis Tygart.
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Re: Columnist looks at "trolls" who are anti-Armstrong

Postby guru » Tue Nov 16, 2010 4:08 pm

Not referring to you jc.
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Re: Columnist looks at "trolls" who are anti-Armstrong

Postby Conor Dary » Tue Nov 16, 2010 4:11 pm

guru wrote:
Conor Dary wrote:That sure sounds swell. Good to hear they are going after the important stuff.



You do understand the FBI and CIA have nothing to do with the Armstrong investigation?


I am just quoting from your thread. Frankly the whole thing bores me.

'I've come to the conclusion that USADA, WADA and all the other drug enforcement agencies of the various sports governing bodies are totally useless compared to what the FBI and its European counterparts do. Without the American and European government law enforcement agencies, hardly any of the illegal gamblers and dopers in baseball, basketball, football, soccer, track and field or cycling would have never been exposed. Even in college football, if Cam Newton is found out to have been bought and paid for by Auburn, we'll have the FBI to thank for it, since as we speak, they are conducting interviews of the various Mississippi State alumni, boosters and coaches who are involved in the allegations."
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Re: Columnist looks at "trolls" who are anti-Armstrong

Postby guru » Tue Nov 16, 2010 4:16 pm

Conor Dary wrote:
guru wrote:
Conor Dary wrote:That sure sounds swell. Good to hear they are going after the important stuff.



You do understand the FBI and CIA have nothing to do with the Armstrong investigation?


I am just quoting from your thread. Frankly the whole thing bores me.

'I've come to the conclusion that USADA, WADA and all the other drug enforcement agencies of the various sports governing bodies are totally useless compared to what the FBI and its European counterparts do. Without the American and European government law enforcement agencies, hardly any of the illegal gamblers and dopers in baseball, basketball, football, soccer, track and field or cycling would have never been exposed. Even in college football, if Cam Newton is found out to have been bought and paid for by Auburn, we'll have the FBI to thank for it, since as we speak, they are conducting interviews of the various Mississippi State alumni, boosters and coaches who are involved in the allegations."



That's not mine.

Back to the question, in reference to you dragging 9/11 into the conversation. Do you or do you not know the FBI and CIA are not involved in the Armstrong investigation?
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Re: Columnist looks at "trolls" who are anti-Armstrong

Postby jazzcyclist » Tue Nov 16, 2010 4:44 pm

For the record, I'm ambivalent on whether the G-Men should be involved in insuring fair play in professional and big-time college sports. My main point is that the governing bodies of these various sports lack the competency, and in some cases, lack the will, to catch and punish the rule breakers in their sports. The G-Men are much better at it than they are.

For example, Mississippi State reported Cecil Newton's pay-for-play shakedown to the SEC back in January, but now we find out that the SEC just sat on it. Two weeks ago when Cam's dirty laundry started leaking to the media (probably from a miffed Mississippi State booster), and questions started being asked about where the investigation was going, the SEC honchos said that they don't consider it their job to enforce NCAA rules. Of course the media attention forced the NCAA to get involved, but the investigation was still moving at a snail's pace until the FBI started conducting interviews today, and now folks are singing like canaries.
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Re: Columnist looks at "trolls" who are anti-Armstrong

Postby guru » Tue Nov 16, 2010 5:00 pm

Since the FDA is handling the PED investigations, I'm fine with it. That's their job.

As for Newton, you couldn't be more right about FBI involvement getting the moss off the stone. I was stunned Auburn played Newton against Georgia after his father admitted to NCAA investigators last week that he did indeed seek financial compensation from Miss State for Cam's services(while saying Cam didn't know a thing LOL!). If that's true it doesn't matter if Cam "knew" or not, and his days are numbered.
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Re: Columnist looks at "trolls" who are anti-Armstrong

Postby Conor Dary » Tue Nov 16, 2010 5:01 pm

guru wrote:
Conor Dary wrote:That sure sounds swell. Good to hear they are going after the important stuff.



You do understand the FBI and CIA have nothing to do with the Armstrong investigation?


Look fool, obviously the CIA is not involved. And who cares about the FBI. It wouldn't surprise me that they were involved. After all going after low hanging fruit is their specialty.
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Re: Columnist looks at "trolls" who are anti-Armstrong

Postby guru » Tue Nov 16, 2010 5:06 pm

Conor Dary wrote:
Look fool...



You lose.
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Re: Columnist looks at "trolls" who are anti-Armstrong

Postby jazzcyclist » Tue Nov 16, 2010 5:09 pm

guru wrote:
Conor Dary wrote:
Look fool...



You lose.

Can't we all get along?
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Re: Columnist looks at "trolls" who are anti-Armstrong

Postby guru » Tue Nov 16, 2010 5:09 pm

Conor Dary wrote:
guru wrote:
Conor Dary wrote:That sure sounds swell. Good to hear they are going after the important stuff.



You do understand the FBI and CIA have nothing to do with the Armstrong investigation?
...obviously the CIA is not involved. And who cares about the FBI. .



So, what's your point?

And what would you have the FDA investigate, if not illegal drug use/trafficking?
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Re: Columnist looks at "trolls" who are anti-Armstrong

Postby jazzcyclist » Tue Nov 16, 2010 5:15 pm

Conor Dary wrote:After all going after low hanging fruit is their specialty.

So true! However, I think their real specialty is "shiny", low-hanging fruit. I doubt that the FBI would be involved if Cam Newton was the third-string tight end for Indiana.
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Re: Columnist looks at "trolls" who are anti-Armstrong

Postby guru » Tue Nov 16, 2010 5:28 pm

jazzcyclist wrote: I doubt that the FBI would be involved if Cam Newton was the third-string tight end for Indiana.



Of course, neither would six-figure pay to play demands.
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Re: Columnist looks at "trolls" who are anti-Armstrong

Postby jazzcyclist » Tue Nov 16, 2010 6:12 pm

guru wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote: I doubt that the FBI would be involved if Cam Newton was the third-string tight end for Indiana.



Of course, neither would six-figure pay to play demands.

That's true, but it's Newton's fame and Auburn's success got the G-Men's attention, not his six-figure price tag. If Newton hadn't panned out at Auburn, but instead was sitting on the bench as a third-string quarterback on a 5-6 Auburn team, instead of an 11-0 team, I don't think the G-Men would be interested, despite the shakedown attempt by his father.
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