Columnist looks at "trolls" who are anti-Armstrong

[guru]

So by that line of reasoning I suppose we should have given Marion Jones a pass too?

The moral to MJ story was not that drugs work, but don't leave a paper trail and watch who you hang out with. And as we also know she wasn't alone in doing PEDs then, but, hey, she was well known and a great target.

No, the moral to her story is don't launder drug(heroin) money, and don't lie to federal agents about it.

[TrainerPhil]

It looks like it's just a matter of time now. I have a feeling Armstrong is going to come "clean" and admit to all the wrong doing. I can't imagine him continuing to deny this all for much longer.

[jazzcyclist]

The moral to MJ story was not that drugs work, but don't leave a paper trail and watch who you hang out with. And as we also know she wasn't alone in doing PEDs then, but, hey, she was well known and a great target.

No, the moral to her story is don't launder drug(heroin) money, and don't lie to federal agents about it.

I reckon that Andy Pettitte and Jason Giambi would say that the real lesson of this story is that the truth will set you free.

[Conor Dary]

I reckon that Andy Pettitte and Jason Giambi would say that the real lesson of this story is that the truth will set you free.

Yes, if you are a baseball player, and with the Yankees, it is possible. A disposable Olympian? Forget it.

[guru]

Armstrong starting to sweat.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... 91506.html


When someone who says they're above the fray suddenly isn't, it's time to watch closely.

[Conor Dary]

Armstrong starting to sweat.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... 91506.html


When someone who says they're above the fray suddenly isn't, it's time to watch closely.

Sorry, but nothing new. LeMond and Armstrong have despised each other for years, and this exchange has been repeated many times. And on LeMond's part I believe it is envy, like some other people I don't have to mention.

[guru]

As far as I know, this is new.

Lance Armstrong returned fire at three-time Tour de France champion Greg LeMond, challenging him to "tell the truth" about Mr. LeMond's second Tour victory, in 1989.

[jazzcyclist]

Armstrong starting to sweat.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... 91506.html


When someone who says they're above the fray suddenly isn't, it's time to watch closely.

Sorry, but nothing new. LeMond and Armstrong have despised each other for years, and this exchange has been repeated many times. And on LeMond's part I believe it is envy, like some other people I don't have to mention.

I don't think it's necessarily envy, but I also don't think LeMond is being fair. You see this same attitude with older baseball players who take this holier-than-thou attitude towards the steroid era baseball players. Of course those old timers didn't do steroids and HGH because those drugs weren't around during their era, but they certainly had no qualms about doing greenies which were also an FDA-controlled substance that they obtained illegally. To their credit, Bob Gibson and Mike Schmidt have enough self awareness to admit that probably the only reason they didn't do steroids is because they didn't play in the steroid era. Similarly, the question I would ask LeMond is: "Are you sure you wouldn't have done EPO if you had ridden in the EPO era, when practically everyone in the peleton was doing it?"

[Conor Dary]

Jazz, yes, envy might be too strong a word, but there is some there, along with his annoying holier-than-thou attitude. And this clash with Armstrong has gone on since the 90's. I think it is also interesting that Eddy Merckx and Armstrong are long time great friends, which tells you something right there.

[jazzcyclist]

Uh oh! Tyler Hamilton is talking.

http://sports.espn.go.com/oly/cycling/n ... id=5399613

And Lance has hired a criminal defense lawyer.

http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/38354912/ ... de_france/

[Brian]

As far as I know, this is new.

Lance Armstrong returned fire at three-time Tour de France champion Greg LeMond, challenging him to "tell the truth" about Mr. LeMond's second Tour victory, in 1989.

Well, LeMond certainly had some extra weight helping him on the downhills, with all that buckshot riding along inside him.

I agree with guru, though, that this has taken on a new zeal. LeMond smelling blood, perhaps.

Whether right or wrong, LeMond isn't making himself look like a champion on any counts.

[guru]

Floyd Landis interviewed on Nightline tonight(Friday 7/23).

http://abcnews.go.com/Nightline/video/n ... g-11234062

[jkjoregon]

From Cycling news, read the Floyd Landis letter for yourself.

http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?t=7473

Pretty damning with the level of detail.

[jazzcyclist]

It was kind of strange to see Frankie Andreu's wife being interviewed on Nightline at precisely the same time he was conducting interviews and reporting from the Tour de France. IMO, Floyd Landis is a low-life. Is their no honor among thieves? If he felt like he needed to confess his own sins in order to cleanse his soul that's one thing, but ratting out other folks is despicable. When Paul Hornung got caught gambling on NFL football games in the 1960's, he told Pete Rozelle that he would tell him everything he wanted to know about what he did, but don't ask him about what any other players did because he wasn't a rat. Greg LeMond's behavior is unbecoming for a great champion. You don't see Eddy Merckx, Bernard Hinault and Miguel Indurain walking around with LeMond's holier-than-thou attitude, despite the fact that they no doubt have a pretty good idea of the rampant drug use taking place in the peleton from the early 90's to the mid 00's. They take the high road, stay above the fray and conduct themselves as true ambassadors of the sport. Compare LeMond to Hank Aaron, who gave a gracious congratulatory speech to Barry Bonds on the night he hit his 756th home run. You don't see Aaron and Willie Mays ragging on the steroid-era baseball players who have passed or will pass them in the record books.

[Conor Dary]

It was kind of strange to see Frankie Andreu's wife being interviewed on Nightline at precisely the same time he was conducting interviews and reporting from the Tour de France. IMO, Floyd Landis is a low-life. Is their no honor among thieves? If he felt like he needed to confess his own sins in order to cleanse his soul that's one thing, but ratting out other folks is despicable. When Paul Hornung got caught gambling on NFL football games in the 1960's, he told Pete Rozelle that he would tell him everything he wanted to know about what he did, but don't ask him about what any other players did because he wasn't a rat. Greg LeMond's behavior is unbecoming for a great champion. You don't see Eddy Merckx, Bernard Hinault and Miguel Indurain walking around with LeMond's holier-than-thou attitude, despite the fact that they no doubt have a pretty good idea of the rampant drug use taking place in the peleton from the early 90's to the mid 00's. They take the high road, stay above the fray and conduct themselves as true ambassadors of the sport. Compare LeMond to Hank Aaron, who gave a gracious congratulatory speech to Barry Bonds on the night he hit his 756th home run. You don't see Aaron and Willie Mays ragging on the steroid-era baseball players who have passed or will pass them in the record books.

I agree once again. No one lower than Landis, but LeMond is definitely doing his best to lower himself into the gutter.

[502CD]

It's a shame that the two biggest names in US cycling have this hate towards each other that gets spilled into the news.

[gh]

Armstrong's lawyers say USADA is offering deals to other riders to rat him out.

Story linked on front page.

[jkjoregon]

Hamilton, Leipheimer, Hincapie and Zabriskie are in a tough spot.

-Sing like a sparrow.

-Deny and face likely perjury charges

-Take the 5th.

What would you do?

[jazzcyclist]

Hamilton, Leipheimer, Hincapie and Zabriskie are in a tough spot.

-Sing like a sparrow.

-Deny and face likely perjury charges

-Take the 5th.

What would you do?

Perjury would be out of the question for me, and taking the fifth is not an option if you're offered immunity. Hamilton is out of cycling and Leipheimer and Hincappie are in the twilight of their careers. Zabriskie is in a more precarious situation since he has a lot of good years ahead of him. Perhaps he could confess to old sins and get the same UCI amnesty deal that Erik Zabel was given.

[jkjoregon]

Scenario:
So you enter the federal prosecutor arena, intent on saying as little as possible except not wanting to obviously perjure yourself. You would not like to break omerta.

But, you have no idea what other riders have told the prosecutors. You are a bicylist- a good one- but used to no more grilling than a 3 minute sycophantic television interview. They are grizzled federal prosecutors that will question and cross question you for two days. They take a dim view of lying, or selective memory, or changing a story in mid stream.


First question: " three of your colleagues present have told us that all the riders- including you- received blood on the bus -- what can you tell us? We would like to remind you that you are under oath."

And your answer?

[guru]

The walls are closing in...

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/05/sport ... ml?_r=2&hp

[jazzcyclist]

This morning, ESPN's Mike & Mike both concluded that even if the G-men do get Armstrong, most Americans will give him a pass because he's in a sport that most Americans don't care about. However, if that was true, Marion Jones would have also gotten a pass. If Lance gets a pass, I think it will be partly because of the good will he has built up as the point man in the global fight against cancer and partly because of the good ole fashion Francophobia that many Americans wear as a badge of honor.

[Dutra]

This morning, ESPN's Mike & Mike both concluded that even if the G-men do get Armstrong, most Americans will give him a pass because he's in a sport that most Americans don't care about. However, if that was true, Marion Jones would have also gotten a pass. If Lance gets a pass, I think it will be partly because of the good will he has built up as the point man in the global fight against cancer and partly because of the good ole fashion Francophobia that many Americans wear as a badge of honor.

I had a conversation with a cyclist who has a cursory interest in distance running...pretty much the exact opposite of me...the other day and he was very very staunch in his defense of Lance. He initially blamed everyone for Lance's potential issues including the French and the other riders but by the time we got to the end of the conversation I had him at least admitting to me that there's a real good chance that Lance used PEDs during his riding career.

However, he then allowed for the fact that Lance has probably done more good than bad for the world even if he did use PEDs.

[Conor Dary]

This morning, ESPN's Mike & Mike both concluded that even if the G-men do get Armstrong, most Americans will give him a pass because he's in a sport that most Americans don't care about. However, if that was true, Marion Jones would have also gotten a pass. If Lance gets a pass, I think it will be partly because of the good will he has built up as the point man in the global fight against cancer and partly because of the good ole fashion Francophobia that many Americans wear as a badge of honor.

Remember there was a little more to the Jones case than just drugs.

"Co-conspirators orchestrated a scheme to defraud numerous banks out of millions of dollars through, among other means, the deposit of stolen, altered and counterfeit checks into various bank accounts they controlled. The investigation has resulted in the convictions, in this and related cases, of more than 20 individuals, including Montgomery (with whom Jones-Thompson had a romantic relationship), Riddick (who was Jones-Thompson and Montgomery's former coach) and Charles Wells, the former sports agent for Jones-Thompson and Montgomery."

http://www.ice.gov/pi/news/newsreleases ... ewyork.htm

Personally I don't think the public cares that much about the whole drug thing, whether it is in baseball players, track stars or cyclists. The whole false outrage is driven by radio and tv jocks who just crave controversy.

[guru]

Remember there was a little more to the Jones case than just drugs.

As there is with Armstrong.

[Conor Dary]

Remember there was a little more to the Jones case than just drugs.

As there is with Armstrong.

What exactly, except for, possibly, selling a few bikes and parts? And even if true who did it.

But some folks just love a controversy.

[jazzcyclist]

I don't put Armstrong in the same boat with Marion Jones, since everything that he's accused of seems to have been done for the purpose of getting a competitive advantage in his sport. Jones's check fraud scheme seems to have been done for the purpose of providing a major source of income, not to enhance her performce on the track. Furthermore, unlike the banks that filed charges against Jones and her cohorts, Trek seems to have no interest in going after Armstrong for the illegal sale of its bicycles.

I believe that in the long run, the best thing Armstrong can do is take a page out of the Andy Pettitte playbook and make the whole thing go away, but my guess is that his ego and short-term vision will lead him to follow the playbook of his fellow Texan Roger Clemens.

[catson52]

Is it too naive to want all "drug" users (cheaters) to be outed and their names removed from the record books? Obviously there are a large number that have not been "caught" and probably never will. But Armstrong's case has been suspected ("known") for many years, as with others like Marion Jones, Barry Bonds, to name just a few.

[guru]

Remember there was a little more to the Jones case than just drugs.

As there is with Armstrong.

What exactly, except for, possibly, selling a few bikes and parts?

Which was used to fund the doping program of the US Postal team.

And even if true who did it.

That is why we have an investigation.

[guru]

IFurthermore, unlike the banks that filed charges against Jones and her cohorts, Trek seems to have no interest in going after Armstrong for the illegal sale of its bicycles.

lol, and why is that?

This isn't about Trek. It's about using funds from an independant agency of the US government(USPS) to fund illegal activities.

[26mi235]

And by winning more they badly hurt the image of the US Postal Service?

[jazzcyclist]

This isn't about Trek. It's about using funds from an independant agency of the US government(USPS) to fund illegal activities.

I didn't know that Trek was part of a government agency, I thought they were a private entity that donated bikes to U.S. Postal. Are you saying that those bikes became government property after Trek donated them? If the bikes had not been sold, how would the government's bottom line have been any different?

[jazzcyclist]

Is it too naive to want all "drug" users (cheaters) to be outed and their names removed from the record books? Obviously there are a large number that have not been "caught" and probably never will. But Armstrong's case has been suspected ("known") for many years, as with others like Marion Jones, Barry Bonds, to name just a few.

I don't lump Bonds in with Armstrong and Jones for two reasons:

1) Unlike Jones, Bonds has never been sanctioned by his sport's governing body or convicted in a court of law for using PED's.
2) Unlike Jones and Armstrong, Bonds' sport had no drug testing/enforcement program at the time he is alleged to have used PED's, and without rules, there can be no cheating.

[unclezadok]

Today they are talking about a "former teammate" of Armstrong's who says blah blah blah whatever. I assume the former teammate is, again, Landis.

[guru]

Today they are talking about a "former teammate" of Armstrong's who says blah blah blah whatever. I assume the former teammate is, again, Landis.

Not Landis.

From New York Times story link several posts up -

The rider, who has never tested positive for performance-enhancing drugs or methods, asked that his name not be used because investigators advised him not to speak publicly about the information he provided. He has not been called before the grand jury that has been convened in Los Angeles to investigate the case.